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"It's going to be staggering." Heating Oil costs to nearly double for coming Winter

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TalkingDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-29-08 06:42 AM
Original message
"It's going to be staggering." Heating Oil costs to nearly double for coming Winter
http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2008/06/28/northeast_braces_for_home_heating_oil_increases/


"It is very tough looking into the eyes of these customers when they ask me what I think they should do," Farrell said in testimony Wednesday at a Senate Small Business and Entrepreneurship Committee hearing. "I don't know what to tell them. For the first time I think some of my customers are going to have to choose between main essentials like groceries, gasoline, warm clothes and heating oil just to pay their bills."


/snip
Food costs are going to rise substantially by the end of summer when the leading edge impact of the mid-west floods begin to be felt. Gas prices are unlikely to come down in the short term.

This has the makings of some very nasty reactions by hungry and frustrated people.

I know that I can do without, but if I had to watch my children go hungry, knowing that it wasn't going to get better....

The poor, at least, already know how to slog through. For them it will simply be another layer of crap they have to deal with. (And yes, having grown up just shy of homeless I do know what I'm talking about.....)

But the increasingly stressed "middle class" have this expectation that even though it may be bad now, it has always gotten better. I vote them most likely to snap....
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Douglas Carpenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-29-08 06:58 AM
Response to Original message
1. this will almost certainly be the case. If, God forbid, there is an attack on Iran
they will at least triple or quadruple
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HereSince1628 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-29-08 07:01 AM
Response to Original message
2. Crop damage gets built into the market very fast. It won't take until summers end
for product pricing to be jacked up. As illustrated below, the futures prices can respond to changes in daily weather. As much as the contracts allow them to do so I'd bet manufactures using grain products (and what doesn't have corn fructose in it?) already have the higher futures prices built in.

........

SAN FRANCISCO (MarketWatch) -- Corn and soybean futures rose Friday to new all-time highs as weather forecasts showed that heavy thunderstorms are returning to the Midwest, the nation's major corn and soybeans producing area. Corn futures for July delivery rose to a new record of $7.673 a bushel and soybeans climbed to $15.998 a bushel on the Chicago Board of Trade. Wheat futures also advanced to $9.40 a bushel. Corn was last seen up 0.4% at $7.568 and soybeans were last up 0.6% at $15.83.

Heavy thunderstorms will blast the Midwest Friday, threatening to renew dangerous flooding in the area, AccuWeather.com said. Storms will shift east over the weekend but will return again next week, according to AccuWeather.
Crops have been under water for weeks and the new storms "will exacerbate the flooding pretty quickly because the land has already been saturated," said Dale Mohler, senior meteorologist at AccuWeather.
Shawn Hackett, president of agriculture futures brokerage Hackett Financial Advisors, said if rains continue in July, corn could be pushed up to $10 a bushel.

<snip>

The USDA projected in June, before major floods occurred, that the next season's corn year-end inventories in the U.S will fall to 673 million bushels, the lowest in 13 years. Recent floods are likely to push the inventories lower -- to a level the U.S. hasn't seen since the end of World War II, Hackett said.
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TalkingDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-29-08 07:05 AM
Response to Reply #2
4.  Yep, gotta gamble on those futures....
The stores and inventories were more what I was concerned with. We can't really afford too many more hits to our food supply.

Thanks for the info on that.
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Tab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-29-08 07:05 AM
Response to Original message
3. I've posted on this a few times. Most people don't get it.

There are generally four ways to heat a house.

1) With oil
2) With gas
3) With wood
4) With electricity

Electricity used to be the most expensive (hey, maybe now it's the cheapest) but it's a terrible dry heat. It's good for vacation homes or rarely used places, but other than that, no one I know regularly heats with electricity (I live in northern New England).

Wood is good, if you have the right stove, but when you start going out at 2 a.m. to get some wood in the middle of winter, the novelty wears out real quick. The right stove is important, too, a cast iron one gets really hot and cools off fast. I used to have a soap stone one that was very nice. Still, it's best if it's an adjunct to your heating source, not the sole heating source.

Gas is good, getting more expensive, but I don't like it just because it weirds me out having that stuff in my house. I'm sure it's pretty safe now, but I'm just reminded of all these horror stories from when my parents were growing up and buildings getting blown sky high.

Oil is (or has been) the traditional heating fuel. It was reasonably inexpensive, efficient, most houses up here heat with oil.

I used to pay $1.59 /gallon (and lower prices before that, obviously). Many oil companies will let you "pre-buy" for the winter - lock in a set rate for so many gallons.

Almost no one is offering that now. One local company is CONSIDERING it, and the price would be something like $4.53/gallon. Others don't even want to go there - they can't figure out if this is a bubble or an omen.

To put this into perspective, this is NOT YOUR CAR. Houses that heat with oil - which is many of the northern houses - have oil tanks that contain 275 gallons of oil. That oil runs the furnace and often the hot water boiler. 275 gallons * 4.52 is over a $1000 per oil delivery. In a winter we may go through 3 or 4 tanks. Maybe more if it's cold enough. And it's not optional - you have to heat your house. So what used to be a $1300 for the winter is now about $3600. For most people, that's just not achievable.

Myself, we're just keeping the thermostat down (and I bought some programmable thermostats) and we're just dressing more warmly.

At least we're in smaller digs. My old house was a 6000 sq ft brick monster with two furnaces and three (!) oil tanks - I loved it, it was like a mini-estate - but I swear it'd probably cost me $15k to $20k to heat it for the winter.
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TalkingDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-29-08 07:11 AM
Response to Reply #3
6. Down here, electricity is now cheaper....
which has never, ever been the case....

I'll have to come back to this later (I have to get to the garden before it gets too damned hot) but there's a great pub. on building efficient wood stoves.

It involves creating more surface area inside the house, so the majority of the heat energy stays indoors. Some novel and amazing ideas. I think a University Prof and his students use it as an engineering problem and come up with concepts....

This isn't it, but interesting nevertheless:

http://www.motherearthnews.com/Do-It-Yourself/1978-01-01/The-Amazing-500-Wood-Burning-Stove-That-You-Can-Build-for-35-Or-Less.aspx
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KharmaTrain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-29-08 07:16 AM
Response to Reply #3
7. We "Pre-Pay" For Natural Gas
Several years ago our utility company set up a program where you could "budget" your use...pay a little more in the summer for a lower guaranteed price during the winter. We've been a part of this program for several years and we were paying 25% or more less than others in similar houses (we're at 5,000 sq. feet) that weren't on the plan.

The rise of energy costs are obscene...esepcially for those who rely on oil and gas and super especially those with fixed incomes. don't expect this regime to lift a finger to help those in need this winter...they'll try to dump this mess on state and local governments instead.

This is going to be a very difficult fall and winter...what we're seeing with the rise of oil and the drop of both the market and the dollar won't really work its way through the economy until then. Our goal here this summer is to recheck our insulation...we just replaced windows and looking at other ways to maximize our heating system and dollars. Our fireplace is sure to get quite a workout this winter again.
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OmmmSweetOmmm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-29-08 08:28 AM
Response to Reply #3
13. Those huge oil heated homes went for a song in the late 70s because of the cost of oil back then.
It's going to happen again.

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Gormy Cuss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-29-08 08:46 AM
Response to Reply #3
15. There are good reasons for the small houses typical in Northern New England.
They're much cheaper to heat. I grew up in the city and probably 9 out of every 10 homes were heated with oil. The price of heating oil was more important than the price of gasoline, no question about it. I also spent half of my childhood in poverty and we could only afford to purchase oil 100 gallons at a time -- it's going to be a really rough winter for the low and moderate income people.

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amandabeech Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-29-08 05:47 PM
Response to Reply #3
22. I used to live in an old, charming house.
It had an old oil furnace.

I found that if I wore a stocking cap (toque) indoors, I stayed much warmer.

Good luck this winter, but you might consider propane. It doesn't blow up as easily as natural gas and it is delivered by truck. The tanks are outside away from the house.

My mom uses propane along with her Franklin stove out in the sticks in the Midwest.
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sandyd921 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-29-08 06:08 PM
Response to Reply #3
23. I heat with kerosene
It's also called K1. I have a monitor heater that uses K1). Great thing is that I only have to fill up my tank once a year! Last year that cost me about $900. That was it for a whole year! It more than adequately heated two floors of my condo town house (living room/dining kitchen level and bedrooms upstairs). Compared to the monthly fill-ups of oil in the small house I rented previously this is heaven! Even with K1 sure to shoot up this year it will more than beat standard oil or gas heating. Plus I don't have to keep putting wood in a stove. Oh, and I also live in Northern New England. Anyone looking into economical heating systems should consider this option.

http://www.monitorproducts.com/
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knitter4democracy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-30-08 08:27 AM
Response to Reply #3
25. I remember when my mom switched to heating oil.
We used to have a wood furnace in the house. She'd really get it going for the night but then have to go down again in the morning to make sure it was good and hot for the day. Lots of splitting wood and carrying it around. Good heat, though. Then, she saved up and got an oil furnace. So much easier. Problem is, now it's thousands every year to heat that house.

A friend of mine was spending $500/mo. on heat last winter for their old house downtown--and that was to just 50 degrees unless friends were coming over when they'd bump it up to 60. She got a pellet stove for her office that heats the whole main floor for just $500 for the whole winter. When the salesman told her that, she cried. I think more and more people will be getting good pellet/corn/wood stoves to supplement. I know we used our fireplace more last year to help heat the house.
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KharmaTrain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-29-08 07:09 AM
Response to Original message
5. Pre-Pay If You Can
Our state has a pre-payment program where you pay more in the summer to be assured of a fixed price for gas in the fall and winter. We've been in a program for several years now and each year have seen our winter fuel costs are lower than those who didn't know about the program. Pay now or pay later.
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Tab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-29-08 07:38 AM
Response to Reply #5
8. Where we are you can't even do that
Most suppliers always offered that, but this year almost none of them are.

My mother (lives in Vermont) has been trying to get a prepay this year, but there's only one company and they can't decide if they're going to offer it. The companies where I live aren't even suggesting it. It's triple what it used to be.

There's a number of programs to help low-income people with heating costs, but they're limited in funding and they'll dry up quick. I think we're going to see a LOT of problems unless this price drops by half (which I really doubt).
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KharmaTrain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-29-08 07:52 AM
Response to Reply #8
9. It's Real Rough On Oil
I'm using natural gas...and am in Illinois. We have a thing here called a "Budget Plan" that was intended to even out the "bumps"...you pay a bit more in the spring and fall and less in peak summer and throughout the winter. These programs are offered by both the power and gas companies...pushed into it by state legislation.

There will be a real serious problem with heating this winter...I wholeheartedly agree with your assessment there. Things must be double tough for those who rely on oil...distributors are afraid to lock in on prices as the market continues to soar that could end up costing them lots of money later this year. Our school district is facing a looming problem...they're trying to lock in prices for their busses for the fall and are having troubles finding anyone who will guranatee not just a price but even the delivery...things are really bad out there.

The big concern here is for many who won't see this bomb explode until it's too late...those who live in electric or gas domiciles and will see sharp increases this fall and winter with little redress. As you state, financial assistance will be hard to come by and this regime will fiddle while people freeze. It's a shame as we're going to see many endure big hardships this winter...knowing this is going to happen and having a government that is totally unresponsive.

Good luck to your mom...I hope something can stabilize here.

Cheers...
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Tab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-29-08 01:21 PM
Response to Reply #9
19. You're right about one thing
Well, about many things, really (no offense, but it made a better subject line)

The places really getting screwed are things like the municipalities (schools, police, whatever) that have long-term fixed budgets, and although they might have expected a small rise (10 or 20 cents) they weren't ready for the stuff to frickin' double or triple on them.
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fasttense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-29-08 08:02 AM
Response to Original message
10. Be careful about pre-paying.
In our home we have both gas and electricity. When gas was cheaper we did pre-buys of as much as 800 gallons (we also cook and heat our water with gas). But a strange thing happened. No matter how much we pre-bought. It always ran out come spring. Though the bills all looked as if it was used up, we didn't have any reason for the gas consumption to have increased. When we stopped pre-buying, our consumption leveled dropped off.

My husband knows a gas delivery man. He once told my husband that he could give us gallons of gas for free from someone else's pre-paid account. The delivery guy said most people don't even track how much they pre-buy and taking a few gallon from a large pre-buy account was common. My husband turned his offer down.

We stopped pre-buying because we thought they were cheating us. Just be careful and track your usage rate closely.
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JohnyCanuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-29-08 08:11 AM
Response to Original message
11. Golden Era of modern civilization draws to a close.
Civilization's golden era is teetering on collapse
New millennium has brought a turning point in history, yet we ignore meltdown

Hans Tammemagi, Special to the Sun
Published: Saturday, June 28, 2008


The period from 1950 to 2000 will be remembered as the Golden Era of modern civilization, the pinnacle reached by humans after a million years of evolution. This brilliant half-century was sponsored largely by fossil fuels, especially oil, which brought unprecedented economic growth, plentiful transportation and a rich and diverse lifestyle.

But the new millennium has brought the end of cheap oil, and civilization is suddenly teetering on the edge of collapse. Even if we manage to scrape through (and it would require heroic efforts), life will change. We're at one of the most important turning points in history, yet we persistently ignore the coming meltdown and just want to party on. Nero would be proud.

snip

The globe is in for tough times because renewables like wind and solar simply can't be supplied in enough quantity to fill the enormous demand. As an aside, environmental organizations are doing an enormous disservice by promoting the fantasy of a feasible renewable energy and hydrogen economy.

Second, the world is facing a major food shortage. It took two centuries but the Malthusian Devil is finally banging on the door. For seven of the past eight years global production of cereal grains has not met consumption. The price of cereal crops such as rice, corn and wheat has doubled in the past year. Poor countries are hardest hit and food riots have broken out in more than 10 countries including Egypt, Cameroon, Morocco and Indonesia.

The United Nations recently announced that large segments of the world face immediate hunger now, and global food production must be doubled in the next 30 years.

But how is this possible? There are no empty lands to cultivate and agriculture is highly dependent on oil and gas to power machinery, to make pesticides and fertilizers and for shipping. Food prices are rising in lock-step with the price of oil. And now another body blow: the mad rush to harvest cereal grains like corn to make biofuels for cars rather than food for people.


http://www.canada.com/vancouversun/news/story.html?id=2eeece50-285f-4c4b-bb37-2d053d04d4e8&p=1
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ThomWV Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-29-08 08:18 AM
Response to Reply #11
12. That may be one of the silliest statements I have ever seen posted here.
I mean it is beyond laughable.
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agincourt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-29-08 08:36 AM
Response to Reply #12
14. Actually I think he was right,
about the Malthusian devil banging on the door.
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JohnyCanuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-29-08 10:28 AM
Response to Reply #12
16. In the coming years, if we're lucky, life might be not quite as bad as life in North Korea today.

Mother Earth's Triple Whammy
Why North Korea Was a Global Crisis Canary
By John Feffer

SNIP

In the 1990s, North Korea was the world's canary. The famine that killed as much as 10% of the North Korean population in those years was, it turns out, a harbinger of the crisis that now grips the globe -- though few saw it that way at the time.

That small Northeast Asian land, one of the last putatively communist countries on the planet, faced the same three converging factors as we do now -- escalating energy prices, a reduction in food supplies, and impending environmental catastrophe. At the time, of course, all the knowing analysts and pundits dismissed what was happening in that country as the inevitable breakdown of an archaic economic system presided over by a crackpot dictator.

They were wrong. The collapse of North Korean agriculture in the 1990s was not the result of backwardness. In fact, North Korea boasted one of the most mechanized agricultures in Asia. Despite claims of self-sufficiency, the North Koreans were actually heavily dependent on cheap fuel imports. (Does that already ring a bell?) In their case, the heavily subsidized energy came from Russia and China, and it helped keep North Korea's battalion of tractors operating. It also meant that North Korea was able to go through fertilizer, a petroleum product, at one of the world's highest rates. When the Soviets and Chinese stopped subsidizing those energy imports in the late 1980s and international energy rates became the norm for them, too, the North Koreans had a rude awakening.

SNIP

But the peculiarities of North Korea's political economy did not cause the devastating famine that followed. Highly centralized planning and pretensions to self-reliance only made the country prematurely vulnerable to trends now affecting the rest of the planet.

As with the North Koreans, our dependency on relatively cheap energy to run our industrialized agriculture and our smokestack industries is now mixing lethally with food shortages and the beginnings of climate overload, pushing us all toward the precipice. In the short term, we face a food crisis and an energy crisis. Over the longer term, this is certain to expand into a much larger climate crisis. No magic wand, whether biofuels, genetically modified organisms (GMO), or geoengineering, can make the ogres disappear.

http://www.tomdispatch.com/post/174945/john_feffer_are_we_all_north_koreans_now_



Eating Fossil Fuels

By Dale Allen Pfeiffer

snip

The Green Revolution

In the 1950s and 1960s, agriculture underwent a drastic transformation commonly referred to as the Green Revolution. The Green Revolution resulted in the industrialization of agriculture. Part of the advance resulted from new hybrid food plants, leading to more productive food crops. Between 1950 and 1984, as the Green Revolution transformed agriculture around the globe, world grain production increased by 250%.4 That is a tremendous increase in the amount of food energy available for human consumption. This additional energy did not come from an increase in incipient sunlight, nor did it result from introducing agriculture to new vistas of land. The energy for the Green Revolution was provided by fossil fuels in the form of fertilizers (natural gas), pesticides (oil), and hydrocarbon fueled irrigation.

The Green Revolution increased the energy flow to agriculture by an average of 50 times the energy input of traditional agriculture.5 In the most extreme cases, energy consumption by agriculture has increased 100 fold or more.6

In the United States, 400 gallons of oil equivalents are expended annually to feed each American (as of data provided in 1994).7 Agricultural energy consumption is broken down as follows:

· 31% for the manufacture of inorganic fertilizer

· 19% for the operation of field machinery

· 16% for transportation

· 13% for irrigation

· 08% for raising livestock (not including livestock feed)

· 05% for crop drying

· 05% for pesticide production

· 08% miscellaneous8

Energy costs for packaging, refrigeration, transportation to retail outlets, and household cooking are not considered in these figures.

To give the reader an idea of the energy intensiveness of modern agriculture, production of one kilogram of nitrogen for fertilizer requires the energy equivalent of from 1.4 to 1.8 liters of diesel fuel. This is not considering the natural gas feedstock.9 According to The Fertilizer Institute (http://www.tfi.org), in the year from June 30 2001 until June 30 2002 the United States used 12,009,300 short tons of nitrogen fertilizer.10 Using the low figure of 1.4 liters diesel equivalent per kilogram of nitrogen, this equates to the energy content of 15.3 billion liters of diesel fuel, or 96.2 million barrels.

Of course, this is only a rough comparison to aid comprehension of the energy requirements for modern agriculture.

In a very real sense, we are literally eating fossil fuels. However, due to the laws of thermodynamics, there is not a direct correspondence between energy inflow and outflow in agriculture. Along the way, there is a marked energy loss. Between 1945 and 1994, energy input to agriculture increased 4-fold while crop yields only increased 3-fold.11 Since then, energy input has continued to increase without a corresponding increase in crop yield. We have reached the point of marginal returns. Yet, due to soil degradation, increased demands of pest management and increasing energy costs for irrigation (all of which is examined below), modern agriculture must continue increasing its energy expenditures simply to maintain current crop yields. The Green Revolution is becoming bankrupt.

http://www.fromthewilderness.com/free/ww3/100303_eating_oil.html



If you have a high speed connection watch Richard Heinberg discussing "Peak Everything" in this series of Youtube videos:

Part 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ybRz91eimTg

Part 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b3_mYowxlEg

Part 3
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2p6U-ZvR5Yk

Part 4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JyO0WS79Xec

Part 5
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F5EcK-CdLNA

Part 6
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hJpUswRKwIw



Peak Everything
Note: This issue is an edited version of the Introduction to Peak Everything: Waking Up to the Century of Declines.

Petroleum is not the only important resource quickly depleting. Readers already acquainted with the Peak Oil literature know that regional production peaks for natural gas have already occurred, and that, over the short term, the economic consequences of gas shortages are likely to be even worse for Europeans and North Americans than those for oil. And while coal is often referred to as being an abundant fossil fuel, with reserves capable of supplying the world at current rates of usage for two hundred years into the future, a recent study updating global reserves and production forecasts concludes that global coal production will peak and begin to decline in ten to twenty years.4 Because fossil fuels supply about 85 percent of the world's total energy, peaks in these fuels virtually ensure that the world's energy supply will begin to shrink within a few years regardless of any efforts that are made to develop other energy sources.

Nor does the matter end with natural gas and coal. Once one lifts one's eyes from the narrow path of daily survival activities and starts scanning the horizon, a frightening array of peaks comes into view. In the course of the present century we will see an end to growth and a commencement of decline in all of these parameters:

* Population
* Grain production (total and per capita)
* Uranium production
* Climate stability
* Fresh water availability per capita
* Arable land in agricultural production
* Wild fish harvests
* Yearly extraction of some metals and minerals (including copper, platinum, silver, gold, and zinc)

The point of this book is not systematically to go through these peak-and-decline scenarios one by one, offering evidence and pointing out the consequences - though that is a worthwhile exercise. Some of these peaks are more speculative than others: fish harvests are already in decline, so this one is hardly arguable; however, projecting extraction peaks and declines for some metals requires extrapolating current rising rates of usage many decades into the future.5 The problem of uranium supply beyond mid-century is well attested by studies, but has not received sufficient public attention.6

Nevertheless, the general picture is inescapable; it is one of mutually interacting instances of over-consumption and emerging scarcity.

Our starting point, then, is the realization that we are today living at the end of the period of greatest material abundance in human history - an abundance based on temporary sources of cheap energy that made all else possible. Now that the most important of those sources are entering their inevitable sunset phase, we are at the beginning of a period of overall societal contraction. (my emphasis /JC)

This realization is strengthened as we come to understand that it is no happenstance that so many peaks are occurring together. All are causally related by way of the historic reality that, for the past 200 years, cheap, abundant energy from fossil fuels has driven technological invention, increases in total and per-capita resource extraction and consumption (including food production), and population growth. We are enmeshed in a classic self-reinforcing feedback loop:

Fossil fuel extraction

--> more available energy

----> increased extraction of other resources, and production of food and other goods

------> population growth

--------> higher energy demand

----------> more fossil fuel extraction (and so on)

http://www.richardheinberg.com/museletter/185


Finally everyone should watch physics professor Albert Bartlett explain how even small rates of continuous exponential growth in consumption of any resource (which is the standard pattern in our current economic systems) will lead over relatively short time frames to huge increases in consumption and the depletion of these same resources.

http://globalpublicmedia.com/dr_albert_bartlett_arithmetic_population_and_energy
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Pavulon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-29-08 01:25 PM
Response to Reply #16
20. Uranium.pfft. FBR.
Our friends in Idaho perfected this method of Plutonium production almost 60 years ago. Technology has always supported population over carrying capacity.

It will continue to do so.
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tama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-29-08 12:22 PM
Response to Reply #12
17. What is silly about this:
"We're at one of the most important turning points in history, yet we persistently ignore the coming meltdown and just want to party on. Nero would be proud."

The fact of turning point towards meltdown or the ignoring of meltdown to party on?
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L0oniX Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-29-08 12:35 PM
Response to Original message
18. Get a small efficiant wood stove. At least you can burn your furniture then.


"I ‘Don’t See How It Matters’ That I Don’t Know The Price Of Gas" --John McCain

"I disagree with what the majority of the American people want." John McCain
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knitter4democracy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-30-08 08:31 AM
Response to Reply #18
26. You can get ones that burn the pellets, corn, and wood.
That's what I would get. Then, you can get whatever's the cheapest. We've actually been talking about it as a way to supplement our gas furnace and wood fireplace that we use.
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Blue_In_AK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-29-08 01:28 PM
Response to Original message
21. Heating oil costs in rural Alaska are already staggering
Edited on Sun Jun-29-08 01:33 PM by Blue_In_AK
and have been for years. In some communities the cost is 100% more than the national average. I don't know how they're going to handle it out there.
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yella_dawg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-29-08 06:14 PM
Response to Original message
24. Economic riots, anyone?



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Subdivisions Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-30-08 08:38 AM
Response to Reply #24
27. Already happening in many places around the world. n/t
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dysfunctional press Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-30-08 08:44 AM
Response to Original message
28. communal living is on the way.
although it may only be seasonal to start.
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4_TN_TITANS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-30-08 10:10 AM
Response to Original message
29. "The poor, at least, already know how to slog through."
How true that is... Now, I'm grateful for the first 15 years of marriage where we had to learn to get by with very little. Lots of people with no clue how to feed a family on $5.00 a day or less will be getting their overdue taste of reality. Not wishing bad on anyone, but it will be a much needed slap on the face.
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Juche Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-30-08 10:16 AM
Response to Original message
30. What about electric
Edited on Mon Jun-30-08 10:17 AM by Juche
To my knowledge electric rates aren't going up as dramatically as petroleum prices are. What is to stop people from buying a few $15 space heaters if oil prices get to high?
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lpbk2713 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-30-08 10:19 AM
Response to Original message
31. A lot of people will die, and that's a fact.



Some will be too proud to get help, some will be bullied by the RW media in to thinking they are a burden on the taxpayers for requiring assistance, some will be physically unable to make the necessary arrangements, and some will have just given up hope for their situation to ever improve. The inescapable fact is some people will die who should not have had to and BushCo doesn't give a damn. They have always viewed people like that as throwaways anyhow.








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dajoki Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-30-08 10:46 AM
Response to Original message
32. They are making people...
do desperate things that they normally would not do. In our local paper today it shows that THREE people were arrested for giving bad checks to oil companies. Poor people have no choice but to do whatever they could for their families and they are making them into criminals, well, I ask who are the REAL CRIMINALS?
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