JULY 8TH, 1959

[BOSSHOG]

49 years ago today. The first casualties listed on the Vietnam Veterans Memorial occurred 8 July 1959. The last date listed is May 15th, 1975. There are 58,256 names listed on the Monument.

- The black granite for the wall came from Bangalore, India. Cutting and fabrication was done in Barre, Vermont.
- Eight women are listed on the wall, all nurses, seven from the Army, one from the Air Force.
- 16 Chaplains are on the wall, 7 Catholic, 7 Protestant, 2 Jewish.
- No federal funds were used to pay for the wall. Donations from more then 275,000 individuals, veterans and civic organizations, corporations, foundations and unions provided the funding.

[hobbit709]

1. K&R

[Captain Hilts]

2. Thanks BOSS . nt

[pwb]

3. The guys i knew that were killed in Nam were great people.

I believe God hates war, And he takes the very best amongst us as his revenge for us killing each other. He accepts all of their souls but deprives us of the people that would have done the most good for humankind. IMO.

What are we living without because we lost all these people?.

Peace

[mopinko]

4. and a young woman named maya lin created a work of immense power.

by memorializing not "the war" but the individuals who paid the ultimate price. i knew none of the names on that wall, afaik, but i cannot go near it without tears. to stand there is to really see the immensity of the tragedy of war.

[BOSSHOG]

8. I was only there one time

but I don't think I could ever go back.

I send the Vietnam Veterans Memorial Fund a few bucks each year and they publish and send out a nice little booklet every year which is very informative and downright moving. That's where I got this info.

www.vvmf.org

[indepat]

18. The name of my eldest 1st cousin is on the 2nd tablet: his wife, now widowed for 43 years,

still mourns him. :cry:

[Wilms]

5. .

[TacticalPeek]

6. Roger that, BOSS

And fucking A, pwb at #3.

[trof]

7. 16 years. Jesus.

I'm just stunned.
Never looked at that number before.
16 YEARS.
damn

[DearAbby]

9. ...

"when will we learn?"

[Neshanic]

10. My sisters fiance was killed there a week before the wedding. I don't think some here "get" Vietnam

But I think they will soon. Being told as far back as I can remember that a war was going on my whole life up till I was a sophmore in HS. Walter Cronkite on every night with the war dead, delivered without computer graphics and imbecile talking heads. Just facts. This village, this day these many dead. This village, another day, more dead.

An era of such unstability. Everyone was worried about their son going, at least the majority. The neighbors son suddenly gone one day. Another neighbor had his kid go to Canada.

But it's in rewrite mode now, as some here will argue the wars start, end, reasons, how we lost it, how we could of won it, it's not as bad as you think it was; the people who fought against it were just acting out to be later excoriated by a "Change" person.

Soon our newer generations will know all these things. A neverending war, explaining to kids that we have been at war for a "long" time. Then the escalations. They will come. Then explaining how we repeated history again, as they try to understand what was told to them at age five is still true at age 15.

And when it ends, and it will, but again as in Vietnam not well, we will have the mess, the cleanup, and the rewriting again to make certain that we know the "facts" by people who neither served there, lost anyone there, or were playing war games on computers.

[Voltaire99]

11. I don't think Obama "gets" Vietnam, either.

This, based on his blithe comments to the conservative newspaper editorial staff during the primaries about the war.

His use of the phrase "love ins" to describe antiwar protests in the 60s and 70s is surely that of a person for whom Vietnam has no historical or emotional significance.

I believe you're right about the younger generation; they're ripe for the politicians' picking.

[Obamarama]

12. Wow...thanks for a poignant reminder of our recent history. My older cousin's name is on that wall.

I was 4 years old when he was killed so I only know him through photos and family stories. I vaguely remember how everyone was so grief stricken when he was killed, but I'm sure I had no comprehension of what had happened, really.

May he, and all the others, rest in peace.

[underpants]

13. I did not know that

1959 :wow:

[uppityperson]

14. k&r, I have always wanted to see the wall.

2 stories:

The traveling wall came through my area 9 yrs or so back and I got to see that which was good. UPkid said it was too sad and wanted to leave after a couple minutes. It was. We found an uncle of a friend of UPkid listed there. Someday I will get to see the real Wall.

Told a friend that I'd always wanted to go to the wall and she started talking about some retreat thing called "The Wall" she'd gone to and how wonderful it was. Blink, blink, I meant the VietNam Memorial Wall. Ohhhhhhhhhh.

[BOSSHOG]

15. I'm not

easily awed but the Wall kicked my Ass. I don't think I'll ever be able to return for a second visit. Very, very moving experience.

There are only two sites I go on about at any length relative to how they moved me; the Wall for its wrenching of the heart and Alcatraz which scared the crap out of me.

[uppityperson]

17. This one did it for me also, as did nearby USA one that is more commonly known...

Went once, then with someone else, don't think will again, very somber and reminded me of the TravelingWall. Amazing that France did this for the occupiers. Many young people there, mostly drafted. Those who cannot learn from history are doomed to repeat it indeed. And here we are again.

http://www.battlefieldsww2.50megs.com/la_cambe_german_cemetery.htm

[MindPilot]

23. Alcatraz is absolutely terrifying. Have you ever flown over it?

Look down on the island from a chopper and that dark icy water swirling around looks like it will reach up and suck you right down the the bottom.

The most disturbing is to go into one of the solitary cells--you can close the door--and it is completely sealed. There is not a dot of light anywhere, but you can hear perfectly; they say when the wind is right, an inmate in solitary could hear conversations of the people partying on North Beach. Cruel and unusual? I think so.

I advise anyone visiting the Bay Area to take the Alcatraz tour.

[uppityperson]

16. A few personal bits from thewall website

http://thewall-usa.com/names.asp

The Marines of Morenci
They led some of the scrappiest high school football and basketball teams that the little Arizona copper town of Morenci (pop. 5,058) had ever known and cheered. They enjoyed roaring beer busts. In quieter moments, they rode horses along the Coronado Trail, stalked deer in the Apache National Forest. And in the patriotic camaraderie typical of Morenci's mining families, the nine graduates of Morenci High enlisted as a group in the Marine Corps. Their service began on Independence Day, 1966. Only 3 returned home.

Robert Dale Draper, 19, was killed in an ambush.
Stan King, 21, was killed less than a week after reaching Vietnam.
Alfred Van Whitmer, 21, was killed while on patrol.
Larry J. West, 19 was shot near Quang Nam.
Jose Moncayo, 22, was part of an entire platoon wiped out.
Clive Garcia, 22, was killed by a booby trap while leading a patrol.

The Buddies from Midvale
LeRoy Tafoya, Jimmy Martinez, Tom Gonzales were all boyhood friends and lived on three consecutive streets in Midvale, Utah on Fifth, Sixth and Seventh avenues. They lived only a few yards apart. They played ball at the adjacent sandlot ball field. And they all went to Vietnam..
In a span of 16 dark days in late 1967, all three would be killed. LeRoy was killed on Wednesday, Nov. 22, the fourth anniversary of John F. Kennedy’s assassination. Jimmy died less than 24 hours later on Thanksgiving Day. Tom was shot dead assaulting the enemy on Dec. 7, Pearl Harbor Remembrance Day. Three hallmark all-American days. Three more names to be placed on the The Wall

The First and the Last
The first American soldier killed in the Vietnam War was Air Force T-Sgt. Richard B. Fitzgibbon Jr. He is listed by the U.S. Department of Defense as having a casualty date of June 8, 1956. His name was added to the Wall on Memorial Day 1999.

First battlefield fatality was Specialist 4 James T. Davis who was killed on December 22, 1961.

The last American soldier killed in the Vietnam War was Kelton Rena Turner, an 18-year old Marine. He was killed in action on May 15, 1975, two weeks after the evacuation of Saigon, in what became known as the Mayaguez incident.
Others list Gary L. Hall, Joseph N. Hargrove and Danny G. Marshall as the last to die in Vietnam. These three US Marines Corps veterans were mistakenly left behind on Koh Tang Island during the Mayaguez incident. They were last seen together but unfortunately to date, their fate is unknown. They are located on panel 1W, lines 130 - 131.

Last pilot casualty occured during the Embassy evacuation in Saigon, William C. Nystal and Michael J. Shea both died on the helicopter on April 30, 1975 approaching the USS Hancock in the China Sea (both are located at 1W, 124).

The youngest Vietnam KIA is believed to be Dan Bullock at 15 years old.
The oldest person on the Wall is believed to be Dwaine McGriff at 63 years old.
At least 5 men killed in Vietnam were 16 years old.
At least 12 men killed in Vietnam were 17 years old.
There are 120 persons who listed foreign countries as their home of record.
At least 25,000 of those killed were 20 years old or younger.
More than 17,000 of those killed were married.
Veterans killed on their first day in Vietnam 997 (unconfirmed)
Veterans killed on their last day in Vietnam 1,448 (unconfirmed)
Number of Chaplains on the Wall -- 16 (2 Medal Of Honor)
Number of Women on the Wall -- 8 (7 Army, 1 USAF - 7,484 served)
There are 226 Native Americans on the Memorial.
There are 22 countries represented on the Memorial.
Most common name on the Memorial "Smith" with 667 veterans.
The most casualties for a single day was on January 31, 1968 ~ 245 casualties.
The most casualties for a single month was May 1968, 2,415 casualties were incurred.

[Raster]

19. I grew up in a little town in Arizona about 40 minutes from Morenci.

The first time I saw The Wall was the summer of 1985. I was literally stunned. I lost it when I overheard a young father, maybe mid to late twenties talking to a beautiful little five or six year old boy. As I walked by them I heard the boy ask "but Daddy, why did they have to die?" That's when the tears began falling. I had two older cousins that went to Viet Nam. One never came back. The one that did was never the same.

I was a collector of t-shirts, and bought several in DC that day. I still have the one I bought at The Wall. It's an older couple pointing to the name of their loved one and reflecting back in the marble is the soldier saluting them. I treasure that shirt.

[Stinky The Clown]

20. All the personal items left anonymously at the base of The Wall are ......

.... cataloged and preserved, listing the panel under which they were laid or the name to which they were taped.

There's not so much left these days, but in years past, the things that were left there were incredibly touching.

A dried, preserved prom corsage.

A letter sweater

Stuffed animals

High school graduation cap

Model car

letters

........ amazing

They would be old men today.

[BOSSHOG]

21. Hello H2S

I recently (re)read the account of the disaster onboard the Forrestal in 67. The book had pictures of Young Sailors (I swear we all looked alike as boots) and realised that those young "kids" would now be in their 60's. Lordy we are all powerful but we can't stop the clock.

Love to the Misses!

[Stinky The Clown]

26. Hey BOSS! I'll tell her!

Thanks!

[MindPilot]

22. Thanks for that Chief! 1954--the first "advisers" went in, IIRC

It still awes me that I am a veteran of a war that technically started the year I was born!

The Wall is one of the most powerful and moving things I've ever seen. No one I knew personally is on it, but I'm tearing up just writing about it.

Someone said upthread that Obama doesn't "get" Vietnam. I think they are right. If you didn't live through it, you have no idea what it was like being a young man in high school knowing that graduation may very well bring death or worse. Knowing that unless you were lucky or wealthy, you were gonna go to 'Nam...or Canada.

Everyone focuses on the protests, the draft-card-burners, the whatever-ins, but the vast majority of us who came from modest or military backgrounds--just went.

[BOSSHOG]

24. I too

was born in 54, joined the Navy the Summer of 72 (after HS graduation.) I didn't go to NAM but was happy to serve and glad I did. We weren't wealthy but I had a happy family and a roof over my head. I'd love to be rather anonymous relative to my military service but thanks to the limbaughs and hannity's of the world, I find it necessary to play the Vet Card, especially when crossing verbal swords with the brazzilions of chickenhawk warmongers we have in our country who view the Wall as a reason for them to poke out their chests. (For no apparent reason, which is how they live most of their lives.)

And yes, Alcatraz scary as hell. I never flew over it but I swear that building is alive.

[Stinky The Clown]

25. "--just went."

Yup. It was expected.