Most people, including me, don't care about FISA or R.I.

[DaveJ]

I don't think it violates the 4th Amendment, neither in its literal wording, nor its intent.

In fact, if someone is repeating the word 'bomb' or 'kill' over the phone on a regular basis, or sending bomb schematics or child porn through email, I HOPE it is picked up by some system.

I know most people are just backing off, afraid to say much about it, and allowing this craze to continue and waiting for it to die out,

but I continue to think,

WTF is going on here, really?

[Mojorabbit]

I care deeply

about weakening my fourth amendment rights but that is just me.

[villager]

1. i suppose "most people" in Germany didn't care about the whittling away of freedoms, either...

...until it was too late...

[Marrah_G]

2. ..............

[Forkboy]

3. What she said.

[Jazzgirl]

63. Double what Marrah said....n/t

[Beaverhausen]

4. I think most people do care deeply about their 4th amendment rights

Where the hell do you get the idea they don't?

[wryter2000]

5. Someone cared about it very much

Amendment IV

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

I'm sure you're right that the general public doesn't care. People who understand our system of government do.

[mdmc]

6. As long as middle class whites aren't bothered

I'm with you. At least while I'm still middle class.

[PVnRT]

7. Damn stoopid libruls, what with their "Bill of Rights" and all

[MiniMe]

8. Define "Most people"

The problem isn't the part that is foreign, it is that they are spying on people in the United States. 9-11 didn't change the constitution, or the Bill of Rights. We aren't the only country who has been hit by Al Queda, however we are the only country who has gone bat-shit crazy about it.

The right wing has said that it hasn't been proved that innocent people have been spyed on, or harmed. Of course not, because there is no information available on what the program entails. I, for one, do not trust Gonzo's assessments on what is legal and what is not legal.

Bushco doesn't think that waterboarding is illegal, do you agree with that too?

[Beausoleil]

9. And the frog loves the nice, warm water.

Unfortunately he doesn't care too much until it's boiling.

[sui generis]

10. it's about accountability

sorry if you think that's crazy.

You had an agreement with those companies to support your right to privacy, your right to be treated as innocent until or unless you gave cause for investigation, and to not violate your constitutional right to unreasonable search and seizure.

They failed your civil rights. That's what it's about. And even if you believe your dookie don't stank, the rest of us have a problem with the policy on principle, not because we're guilty or innocent.

[Green Mountain Dem]

11. A lot of people....

said the same thing when Reagan fired the Air Traffic Controllers...and the Corporations got the green light to do whatever the fuck they wanted! Same shit, different time..same outcome.

[islandmkl]

12. is that raggedy-ass piece of paper still causing problems??

My Civil Rights...take them, I wasn't using them, anyway....

[atreides1]

13. Trying to bring out all the Police State lovers

Like you!!!

All kidding aside, many people have different opinions on what this means. Some, including the ACLU and some constitutional scholars do believe that it violates the 4th Amendment.


<<The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.>>

Just because someone says "bomb" or "kill" over the phone on a regular or irregular basis is not probable cause , it's a suspicion not supported by any facts! Unless the individual is a known member of a specific organization with direct ties to terrorists.

By the way when did child pornography become equated with terrorism?

WTF is really going on here is that some people are concerned, because what the Senate did today will remain in place when the next Republican wins the White House, and then we'll all see what a horrendous mistake this really was.

[VP505]

24. A statement that should cause everyone to think twice about FISA!

WTF is really going on here is that some people are concerned, because what the Senate did today will remain in place when the next Republican wins the White House, and then we'll all see what a horrendous mistake this really was.

[SCantiGOP]

26. nobody has a problem

with terrorists or child pornographers being arrested. The problem is removing the courts from the process and giving completely unchecked power to the Executive branch. It is absolutely inevitable that this will be used against political opponents, radicals and dissidents and it probably already has.

[EOTE]

37. And who's to say what causes the wiretaps?

We hear all this talk about "code words" and suspicious circumstances and stuff, but the truth is that we have ABSOLUTELY NO IDEA what the criteria is for these wiretaps. Because they are done without a warrant, it could be for whatever the person instigating the wiretap wants. Donating to lefty organizations? You've earned yourself a wiretap. Apparently the OP doesn't care much for accountability either.

[Leopolds Ghost]

59. Is djohnson a lefty? No? Well then why should he worry? He is a good citizen by his own definition.

Is he really a Dem or one of those "one of the boys" Reagan Dems
who will be HANDED the guns when the next Katrina like situation comes?

If so, what is he worried about? He has an inherent expectation
to be secure in his own effects because he doesn't use words like
"bomb" and "kill" on the Internet and if he does, he still won't
be searched because he's a good ol' dawg.

[Leopolds Ghost]

58. To know they are saying "bomb or kill" on a regular basis REQUIRES an unconstitutional search.

Note the "and" clause.

It is not enough to say that it's "reasonable" to expect that
anything anyone does is subject to general surveillance by the
gov't which can then be used to issue an individual Warrant
(which the new FISA law says is not necessary.) One must
secure a warrant stating the grounds for suspicion, and the
grounds for suspicion cannot be a warrantless search of private
effects, however "reasonable".

Indeed the only way the Feds could argue this is Constitutional
is to assert that all citizens are equally subject to automated
surveillance of their effects and therefore have no inherent
expectation of privacy.

Does Obama assert that? Does djohnson?

If he is not a troll he will answer that question.

If so, also answer this: ever hear of a
"fruit from the poisoned tree defense"?

Djohnson and Obama are arguing it no longer applies
to surveillance. Presumably this means that they
are not intending to use any of this surveillance
in court (they only need the FISA court to issue
blanket search warrants of unspecified numbers of
domestic citizens, they are not required to
review the resultant data or send it to a grand jury.)

What then is the surveillance for?

Note that blackmail doesn't work if you use the info
in court or take it public. You have to keep the info
private to have any leverage over the person being blackmailed.

[bean fidhleir]

14. Then most people, including you, are poor citizens. Sorry to be so blunt, but it's true.

Would you be willing to wear a tracking device and voice transmitter for the convenience of the police? Wholesale monitoring of our communications is different only in detail.

And the reality is that only the very innocent and the very stupid wouldn't carefully hide any illegal content they might be transmitting.

We should all resist strongly any encroachment on our rights. We have so damned few of them!

[MiniMe]

15. 9-11 didn't change the constitution, or the bill of rights

[pokerfan]

16. "If you got nothing to hide, you got nothing to worry about."

Right?

[Muttocracy]

18. that's what they said this morning. Wait, who decides what's on the hide list? nt

[bdamomma]

53. wait until the net gets larger and pulls us all in.

[pokerfan]

57. That's the plan, stan

That's the purpose of dragnet surveillance. Ensnare everyone, then use prosecutorial discretion to go after the "undesirables."

[mikelgb]

17. sure it fine when the words are "bomb" and "kill" but what about when it is

"communist" or "liberal" or some other word that whoever is given the authority to completely monitor all communications wants to look for...
first the came for the...

they can wiretap and read emails all they want as long as the get a warrant

[AntiFascist]

36. Doing some web searching...

it appears that words like "Inslaw" or "Echelon" are high on NSA priority. I probably just flagged this thread. Look what they did to Cynthia McKinney, you call that freedom?

[Subdivisions]

19. If I ever decide to sell toilet paper imprinted with the Bill of Rights,

You'll be the first person I call for an order.

[NattPang]

20. We were stripped of our rights

once the Patriot Act I and then II passed.
I'm not sure why people think
it is just now happening?

[Demit]

21. You're an idiot.

Not to put too fine a point on it.

[Bluebear]

66. When you're right, you're right.

[JackBeck]

22. Your scenario leaves out the fact

That you are not in control over what the government decides what words or actions are deemed "appropriate".

Hence, you, djohnson, could be having a perfectly innocent conversation on the phone, or sending a totally innocuous email to family and friends, yet now the government can knock on your door and submit you to questioning because something you did or said raised a "red flag".

[VP505]

32. Not only questioning

but in conjunction with the Patriot Act and Military Commissions Act, subject to rendition to a secret prison, tortured and held indefinitely without legal representation and or recourse for secret reasons that you nor anyone else will ever know. If knowing that someone could accuse you of saying something that's not appropriate isn't as scary as it gets I don't know what is.

[Leopolds Ghost]

42. So? Djohnson supports "R.I.", he said so (in some sort of acronymic code).

He supports calling it that, too, so presumably he is a big fan of Bush policies in the WOT.

Either that or he we need to put him on a watch list to find out what he meant by "R.I." Retroactive Immunity? Never heard of such a thing. Doesn't exist in the US. Rough Interrogations? Bushism.

(WOT is another NSA keyword, no doubt. The more DUers discuss foreign policy on-line, the more likely YOU will be put on an NSA "watch list" under this new domestically legalized system. Before, all they could do was collect your info and browse thru it randomly.)

Instead of a penumbral right to privacy, we now have penumbral virtual wiretaps.

I.e. watch lists sorting thru your phone calls sorting people into extended netwoprks of possible enemies of the state, using a "foreign person" as the subject of the (non-) warrant covering an unlimited number of domestic subjects including most DUers I'll bet.

That's how they did it in the 60s only back then they had to do physical spying and compile actual lists... today it is all done automated by supercomputers in Greenbelt and Savage, MD.

[mmonk]

23. Here's a simple way to understand it.

Those people in government are above the law. You on the otherhand are not and are subject to their decisions. The only restraints to arbitrary rule are the Bill of Rights. The 4th amendment is one of them.

[Leopolds Ghost]

25. Most EDUCATED people understand that only ignorant fools feel as you do.

This is not a liberal lissue or a "craze" any more than evolution or the inherent right to privacy. Read up on your constitutional rights. Learn where Roe v. Wade decision came from. GET AN EDUCATION.

[Leopolds Ghost]

27. You just used the word "bomb" and "kill" in your post, genius.

Hypocritical.

[MiniMe]

28. Arrest Him, Waterboard him

He obviously knows something, he said "bomb" and "kill"

Oh no, arrest me and waterboard me. And you too Leopold. Boy, the jails are really going to be full.

[Leopolds Ghost]

38. No, no just quietly let him know his posts are being monitored by AUTOMATED ANTI-TROLL.

Only repeat offenders get put on the thoughtcrime watchlist.

Anyone who agrees with djohnson doesn't belong in the Democratic Party, hear?

The Republicans can have so-called "mainstream centrists" with no civics education who are right of Reagan, like him.

Aniyone who supports torture and warrantless surveillance is right of Reagan and deserves to be tombstoned just like a racist. And we should hold Obama to the same standard. If he keeps playing footsie with Reagan policies I have no reason to hope he wins no matter how "disastrous" McCain might be.

Let's see, McCain would:

* Continue Bush's policies and crimes like wiretapping Americans!

* Pardon Bush and allow his cronies to get off scot free!

* Oppose welfare, public housing and other New Deal programs that Clinton and Obama also oppose!

* Overturn Roe v. Wade, which is based on the penumbral privacy right Obama rejected!

* Saber-rattle with Iran, declare Iran's military an enemy in the war on terror, and declare military action preferable to allowing them to get nuke technology!

* Probably ease up on Bush's other excesses!

See a pattern here?

[MiniMe]

29. Dupe

[MiniMe]

30. How did a drive-by poster get over 3,000 posts?

I hate when they don't come back to play

[Marr]

31. If that argument convinced you, I think you could be scared into surrendering anything.

Please, don't pretend your moral cowardice is 'common sense'.

[Leopolds Ghost]

33. Note used the abbreviation "R.I." = "Rough Interrogations"-- Bush word for torture. Who is djohnson?

Can anyone vouch for him? DUers don't talk like this.

When people use abbreviations like "R.I." in their post,
perhaps it should sets off alarm bells in DU's own tracking
system to monitor the posting history of DUers for suspected
trolls. Same concept as FISA really.

[Breeze54]

45. RI means Retroactive Immunity

I think. ;)

[Leopolds Ghost]

49. Strange that he is speaking in some form of code speak.

Like officials not wanting the public to know what they are talking about, unless they've already bought into the paradigm.

[Dogtown]

34. ALERT!

The red button is my friend.

[EOTE]

35. Ummm, you are very wrong.

Most people are strongly opposed to warrantless wiretaps and retroactive immunity for telecoms. That means that they "care". You may not "care", but please don't try to spread your apathy around. It's contagious.

[lonestarnot]

39. Oh dee dee fucking dee! Copies are only a fucking $5.00 you might want to pick one up.

[Marr]

40. I find it strange how conservatives, who claim to be so

anti-big government, so untrusting of incompetent bureaucrats, are the first to surrender their rights to government in exchange for protection. It screams of cowardice.

[Nicole]

41. I used a bug bomb to kill spiders

then I told someone on the phone about it!

I even emailed a friend to tell her bombing weeds with vinegar might kill them.

No way I'm going to drop a f bomb now when I'm killing time on the internet.

I think I'll just go relax in a hot tub with a bath bomb until this killer headache goes away.

Sometimes people here just kill me.

[demosincebirth]

43. I, sort of, agree with you

[Leopolds Ghost]

47. I won't attack you since you don't seem to be trolling. But you need to read up on

the history of penumbral right to privacy originating as an "inherent, inalienable right" under ancient Anglo-American common law, and protected by the 4th and 9th Amendments.

You guys who support FISA also almost invariably turn out to be:

1. Working in the telecom/IT/electronic security industry and perfectly aware of how it has worked since the program was initiated illegally, well before Bush II became Prez.

I have had folks like this use this fact to make the case that it has always occurred for decades and therefore must be legalized or it will continue to be done in the shadows where using the info for blackmail purposes or stock tips is more difficult.

2. Or more likely, simply unaware of how the domestic wiretapping program has always worked and how ineffective it is at creating lists of any domestic terror suspects except, strangely, liberal anti-war activists.

Perhaps in part because many or most NSA codewords are English and most Terrorists (NSA codeword) don't speak English and don't use the word "terrorist" or "NSA" in their secret planning discussions, and NSA only employs a handful of people who speak Farsi or Urdu. See, living in the DC area you pick up on this.

Or you can just read Harper's or Atlantic Monthly which broke this story long ago. Back before Bush II took office, the issue was legalization of roving wiretaps for 4th Amendment purposes. Now, the concept of "roving" wiretaps, much less "warrantless" ones requires a system in place that is ALREADY monitoring your calls and e-mails for proscribed catch-phrases, which you ("aussie": and therefore perhaps not familiar with Anglo-American legal traditions) claim to support.

Legalization of roving wiretaps by SCOTUS was the first step toward attempting to make the program "constitutionally authorized" under Clinton, who was President when the current hardware was first installed (Bush I approved it, IIRC.)

Did you know the courts have consistently ruled that you and djohnson are wrong on a more basic level, that electronic surveillance is a form of search and siezure?

Do you think your local cops WANT to have to secure warrants before they can pull phone records?

Of course, in Australia (and the "home country", Britain) they no longer honor penumbral common-law rights as inalienable and therefore not rescindable by legislation, like we do in the US. That's why we fought a war against Britain.

[demosincebirth]

65. You're so kind.

[redqueen]

44. WTF is going on? Just another step along the way to fascism.

Nothing to worry about.

:wtf:

[DailyGrind51]

46. Without a warrant, who is to say they are only going after suspected

terrorists or perverts? J. Edgar Hoover was checking out the sex lives of athletes, like Joe Namath, and show business people, like Jean Seaburg, just so he could use it against them, if they got political.

"In the Communist witch hunts after the war, Hoover went after anyone who was suspect. If he thought the Justice Department was too slow, he leaked information to Congress and to Tailgunner Joe McCarthy. Lives were ruined. Actress Jean Seaberg supposedly committee suicide from government harassment. Through the bureau’s Responsibilities Program, many were investigated and lost their jobs from innuendo. Files were kept on Charlie Chaplin, Ernest Hemingway, Pete Seegar and even Leonard Bernstein.

Martin Luther King Jr. caught the FBI’s attention in 1958. Hoover didn’t like him because he was black, he thought King had Communist connections and he had dared criticize the FBI. Tapes from illegal wiretaps were distributed in attempts to discredit the leader. At one point in 1964, Hoover held a press conference where he called King one of America’s “lowest characters.” "

http://www.ipspress.com/ipsf/ipsf/Library/Menu/voice/2002/9-6-02takehoover%27snamedown.html

You can't permit a few powerful ideologues to determine who may or may not be an "enemy of the state".

[PA Democrat]

48. I care deeply about the issue as should every good American.

FYI, the Bush administration was conducting illegal wiretaps BEFORE 9-11 and they didn't stop those attacks did they?

How much more of your privacy and freedoms are you willing to give up? Close circuit TVs in your home? After all, maybe they could catch child pornographers and terrorists! A chip implanted in your head so that your every move can be monitored? Where do YOU draw the line? I say the framers of the constitution had it right the first time around. No unreasonable searches or seizures without probable cause.

[Leopolds Ghost]

52. Djohnson is not a good American and anyone who agrees with him doesn't belong in politics

Liberal or conservative.

(He can't argue that I'm being too judgemental since he himself is for
the creation of domestic watch lists. I'm just putting him on mine.)

[undeterred]

50. People who care about good government care about the rule of law.

If you don't care, you are part of the problem.

[JackBeck]

55. NIXON: Well, when the president does it that means that it is not illegal.

FROST: By definition.

NIXON: Exactly. Exactly. If the president, for example, approves something because of the national security, or in this case because of a threat to internal peace and order of significant magnitude, then the president's decision in that instance is one that enables those who carry it out, to carry it out without violating a law. Otherwise they're in an impossible position

--------------------

[Indenturedebtor]

51. Therein lies the problem. What a good German you are

The Chinese didn't care either when it was the rich and the intellectuals that were being rounded up for slaghter. Neither did the Russians care when it was just Jews and "Seditionists". Nor did the Cambodians care when it was the rich and the intellectuals. And so on.

Open your eyes. Cowards die a cowards death.

[dysfunctional press]

54. per the constitution- congress cannot pass laws of "ex-post facto"...

i.e.- 'after the fact'

retroactive immunity is exactly that.

it is entirely unconstitutional.

[depakid]

56. People like you are part of the problem

and precisely the reason why America is not only arguing about, but actively engaged in torture.

[Leopolds Ghost]

60. People like him ARE the problem. By his own words he and "most people" enable a great evil to occur

Be it slavery, quartering soldiers in civilian areas, or warrantless search and siezure.

[saracat]

61. I care and I question the intelligence of anyone who does not. But then

"most people" , and you seem to class yourself with them, elected Buch twice!

[frylock]

62. most people are fucking idiots

[leftofthedial]

64. what about those dangerous, disgusting people who say things like...

I'm a Democrat

I hate George fucking Bush and Dick fucking Cheney

I voted for Kerry

and other such filth?


They, too, are presently being spied on.

[TheWatcher]

67. Superior Indifference.

Alive and well in America 2008, as it was in 1930's Germany.