FISA JUST PASSED! (Obama Voted YES!) And "It" OFFICIALLY died today.

[Yes We Did]

Democracy.

Mark it down.

July 10, 2008.

By a vote of 69 ot 28 Democracy in the United States of America officially died, with it my belief in the Democratic Party.

Goodbye Democracy.
Goodbye Fourth Amendment.
Goodbye Democratic Party
Goodbye America as we knew it.

Our party leader, our great “Messiah” as many of you called him, completely abandoned us today.

He voted FOR the FISA bill.

He lied to us, and turned his back on the 18 million who made him our Presidential nominee and sided with Bush and the telecoms that illegally spied on us before, during and after 911.

It is unforgivable.

Hope? Please.
Change? Right.

It’s change alright, but not the kind I signed on and fought for.

I am so disgusted right now. I could just cry.

How?
Why?

What the fuck is the point to any of this? If OBAMA could do this to us, then whom the hell do we have left? And yes, I know it was not just him, it was the other 30 something cowards in the “Democratic” party who went along with this bullshit FISA immunity Bush/TELCO saving bullshit!

Cowards! You are all cowards! Spineless! Liars! Weasels! Traitors!

Why?
How?

And don’t tell me that it isn’t Obama’s fault. I know. I’ve heard the argument. I know this is Bush’s doing. I know that. However, when you are in a position to right a wrong and you sit on your ass and do NOTHING it is cowardly! Obama had a moment to move beyond the rhetoric. He had a moment to show us that his “words mattered” and instead he did NOTHING!

HE. FAILED. US.

And I can NEVER forgive that. NEVER.

I just don’t get it. How the fuck did this happen? I feel like such a fool. I really thought we were on the right path. I really did. Now… I don’t know what to think.

I do know one thing though. I am no longer a Democrat. There is no longer a Democratic Party to belong to. It has been infiltrated with fucking faux-crats who are nothing more than lying repukes in disguise.

I will still vote for Obama this fall. But not because I have ANY remaining faith in him or what he says… I will vote for him because he is NOT John McCain.

Sad… I NEVER thought I’d say Obama is “the lesser of two evils” Never.

[SharonRB]

1. That wasn't the vote

They're voting now. The first vote was a procedural vote.

[gateley]

5. Thanks - I was getting confused. Man it's complicated (to me, anyway). nt

[scheming daemons]

7. Premature poutrage by the OP

....and it will still be poutrage AFTER the real vote.

[Yes We Did]

10. "Poutrage"???? NO. it's real outrage. And we should ALL feel it.

[scheming daemons]

17. Your premature "Death of All That is Holy" poutrage in your OP is over the top

FISA will be changed after Obama is elected. Court challenges with either uphold it or not.


It's not the "end" of Democracy..... Not anymore than all of the other attacks on the Bill of Rights over the years.


Today's vote is not some "turning point" in the erosion of our rights.... it's just the latest in a long line of incremental steps that began decades ago.


To be singularly outraged at this PARTICULAR one is laughable.


The 4th amendment suffered a worse blow when random vehicle searches at checkpoints were upheld. And that was done in the courts, so there is no judicial recourse left.

[Yes We Did]

21. So everything is gumdrops and roses in the world you live in. Must be nice.

[scheming daemons]

42. Nope..... but it's also not the "end of civilization as we know it" either

There have been countless other assaults on our freedoms over the past several years, and not so much as a peep.


I find it funny that THIS PARTICULAR assault, which is actually a relatively minor one, is generating such woe-is-us passion.


The PATRIOT act did far more damage to our civil rights than this....

[Yes We Did]

47. Where the hell have you been?

Obviously not here. I have seen countless posts on here about all of them. Where have you been?

[fascisthunter]

111. .

:thumbsup:

[robinlynne]

34. I disagree. Those civil cases contained all the information needed to convict Bush

et al. They were quashed. this is much bigger than anything overturnable. This is NOT just another blow to the constitution.
Those court cases were moving forward after 5 years in court.

This is NOT fixable.

[ben_meyers]

40. FISA will be changed after Obama is elected

Like Nixon's secret plan to get out of Viet Nam. Like Clinton was going to fix welfare reform after he was re-elected.

Hold onto that football Lucy.

[Yes We Did]

49. It'll be too late. Immunity is already granted.

The Telecoms and Bush skate free.

[SidneyCarton]

106. Did you honestly ever think that Bush would actually be held accountable?

In the end, we will be lucky just to be rid of him in 2009. Count your blessings.

[Yes We Did]

108. Call me an optimist.

I thought that we lived in a country where criminals were brought to justice... or at least there was an attempt to do so.

Clinton is nearly impeached for lying about a blow-job but bush gets to kill hundreds of thousands, spy on americans, lie lie lie... and gets off scott free.

Bull Shit!

[gateley]

74. But what I honestly don't understand

is WHY he voted to support it today if it's assumed it will be changed under his administration. He was the only presidential candidate able to vote who voted AYE -- and I honest to god am trying to understand why.

[Yes We Did]

132. Political Posturing. Plain and simple.

He wants to look tough... instead he looks like a true flip-flopper.

[gateley]

135. You know,

play your political posturing games when something so important isn't at stake.

I remember when Biden was still in the race. He voted to fund the war because he'd gotten a provision for MWRAP vehicles included. He felt that Bush would get the money somewhere if they didn't approve it, and wanted to ensure our troops got what they needed terms of equipment.

Point is, he said "Oh, I know what the RIGHT vote would have been, but I voted my conscience. There are some things worth losing over."

FISA is one of those things worth losing over, in my book.

[Yes We Did]

137. I couldn't agree with you more.

I wish more people on here realized that.

[FiveGoodMen]

130. "poutrage" -- Welcome to Ignore.

[Yes We Did]

138. great idea.

[gateley]

2. Is the vote over? I hear them calling roll on my audio stream... nt

[SharonRB]

4. No -- they're voting now

[Yes We Did]

8. That wasn't the "vote"?

So... they were voting on whether or not to vote on it? Either way, the numbers still don't look good. And if it passes, as it would appear it is certain to do... everything I said still stands.

[no_hypocrisy]

3. It's still subject to judicial review and possible stamp of unconstitutionality.

Or if Obama and both democratic houses of Congress were to repeal it.

It's not over yet.

[Yes We Did]

6. I pray you are right.

And I'm not a religous person.

[VP505]

13. Ya, like that's really gonna happen!

They will use the same sorry excuses as the House uses for not impeaching! We are too busy, we have more important things to do, blah, blah, blah.

[gateley]

65. Why would Obama move to repeal it --

he voted in support of it (as I post, the vote has been taken).

[warren pease]

149. $50 says none of the above will ever happen...

The Federalist Society pricks the Bushies appointed to every open federal bench -- approved in all cases by the democratic majority -- will be around and causing major damage long after Bushie himself has gone to his extradition-free country.

Obama and his advisers -- who must be related to the idiots who have advised congress into its current 9 percent approval rating -- subscribe to that old bullshit about how dem presidential candidates are unelectable in this country unless they move significantly to the right. The fatal flaw in this DLC-inspired nonsense is the assumption that a significant majority of this country's voters range between moderate right to fundie loon right to slobbering wingnut Cheney-style nuke-em-all sociopath.

This is at odds with what's actually going on around here. Impeachment is the centerpiece on the table for everybody except BushBots, the DLC, Pelosi and the rest of her miserable accomplices. Where 86 percent say they're sick of getting screwed by for-profit medicine and they want a single-payer health care system.

Where Bugliosi's book on how to try Bushie on murder charges is #12 on the NYT best seller list despite the sad fact that it's been completely ignored by the usual tools in right wing corporate media, including the NT Times itself. Where Bushie and his entire junta are despised by record numbers of Americans who have arrived at this conclusion largely on their own because mass media has given them absolutely no reason to even dislike these mass murderers and war criminals.

Both houses of Congress will be polluted by returning incumbents -- who win more than 90 percent of the time, largely because they get around seven times as much money from the corporate bribocracy -- who will in turn continue replacing government of, by and for the people with government of, by and their corporate sugar daddies.

Congressional bribery is just another solid investment to the corporate massuh class, although in a lot of cases it's their most important investment of all. Where else could they put a few hundred thousand bucks -- even a million or ten -- and get billions in return?

Everything from inserting corporate goodies into the tax code, to writing a particular piece of legislation and then getting one of their investments to bring it to the floor, to "advising" administrations on who should head which regulatory agency.

If you can't make money with all three branches of the federal government strewing roses in your path, your name is probably Bush and you've got a resume that includes presiding over the complete failures of Harken Energy and Arbusto.

But most progressives can't afford to buy their own senator and few members of the house, which means progressive programs will always lose out to the millions of dollars in bribes the corporatocracy tosses around. These faceless vampires have no ideology except increasing profits and reducing expenses -- usually by moving to a cheaper labor country and destroying local economy by laying off its entire workforce.

Or they just arrange to get acquired in some junk bond leveraged buyout scheme, immediately go out of business, sell off all the assets, pocket the money, screw the creditors, steal the pension fund or employees' 401K accounts, lay everybody off except the skeleton staff of rich execs who hang out there every afternoon to kill they day's first liter of single malt and toast the American economic miracle.

If it's not over yet, cool. Even though I left my Pollyanna costume in the ideological closet a long time ago, that would be an amazing and unexpected outcome, given the current situation.



wp

[snot]

209. thank you.

[bdamomma]

9. to those who are watching give us cube rats more details

are they still voting for amending the bill.

[Yes We Did]

15. Obama voted FOR FISA!!!!

[PM7nj]

59. NO WAY!

Didn't see that one coming! Oh no! The sky is falling! What am I going to do now!

[Yes We Did]

96. Could deal without the sarcasm.... really.

[Leopolds Ghost]

188. Says the person with the happy happy rainbow avatar

"No way! Who gives a shit! Not an issue for me! Give it up, losers!"

[Cronus Protagonist]

203. Gosh, you're surprised? Didn't listen to us during the primary, did you?

Get ready for a boatload of surprises. You supported a dark horse candidate based on nothing but rhetoric. I am surprised he didn't vote "present" as is his usual wont on such controversial votes.

[Crabby Appleton]

20. No - all the senate amendments were voted down, then they voted for cloture

which passed, now they are doing the actual vote on the bill.

[Yes We Did]

50. And it passed. Didn't it?

[benny05]

166. They did not vote on all of the amendments

Three were blown off entirely, and Obama voted for cloture, then YEA on the FISA bill.

Real progressive, that Barack Obama.

[robinlynne]

11. They have not voted on it yet!!!!!!!!

[robinlynne]

12. They are voting on a procedural motion now to vote on it.

[SharonRB]

14. No, this is the actual vote

The procedural motion already passed and now they're voting on the bill.

[Robbien]

16. It is going to pass so don't get your hopes up

The deal is done and has been done for over a week. The Dem majority strongly SUPPORT this bill. They are not "caving", they SUPPORT it.

The actual voting was done in backroom deals last month at the time the House enthusiastically pushed the bill through.

[Yes We Did]

24. My hopes have never been lower.

[SharonRB]

18. Obama votes aye

Clinton votes nay.

Levin votes nay!

The usual brave ones vote nay: Feingold, Boxer, Schumer, Dodd, Leahy, Kerry, etc.

[robinlynne]

23. It's going to be really hard to vote for obama now. I will, but only because of the

alternative.
I am disgusted and saddened.

[iris5426]

46. agreed. nt

[fasttense]

19. The fact that Democrats and repukes are about to thumb their collective noses at us.

The fact that Obama is about to vote for a Pinochet law to protect the unknown crimes of telecoms and the bushes. They seems to have all caught 10% approval Cheney's attitude of "SO." So what if the American people want something differently. So what if criminals will be protected and the precedence has been set for the dancing supremes to protect the corporations. Who care what the people want. You get to make a choice once in a few years and that's all that you get.

[NorthCarolina]

22. Clinton voted No, Obama voted Aye?? Hmmmm

It should be interesting to see how this plays out on DU :popcorn:

[SharonRB]

25. Pass some of that popcorn over here, please!

Glad I'm busy tonight and won't be near a computer for a few hours.

I still believe that it will ultimately be overturned and/or that the telecoms will be criminally prosecuted.

[bdamomma]

82. sharonrb, you are an optimist, I feel like a knife went into my side.

[SharonRB]

113. Being an optimist is better than running around like a chicken

with my head cut off all the time. Sure, I'm not happy about the vote, but spending a lot of time agonizing about it doesn't do anyone any good. We've got a lot to do.

[Yes We Did]

129. And we've got a lot of faux-dems to get rid of. n/t

[robinlynne]

26. rather shocking. imo

[Marie26]

45. Why should it be shocking?

Clinton co-sponsored Dodd's amendment to strip telcom immunity back in February.

[Yes We Did]

51. Because he promised us. We believed him. He lied.

[Marie26]

57. Oh

you meant Obama's vote was shocking. Not to me.

[Yes We Did]

67. Well, that's great for you.

It wasn't great for me.

This is the first election that I "really" got involved with. I feel so let down right now.

[Marie26]

75. Sorry

Truly. It's hard to believe in something & be let down. But Obama's still got a long time to go & I'm sure that supporters will find other reasons to be happy about his candidacy. Beating McCain & putting a Dem in the White House will change a whole lot - maybe not FISA, but on war, health care, & other issues Democrats care about.

[Yes We Did]

88. Yes, I know. And that is why I will still vote for him.

But it will be with much less enthusiasm, and I suppose a better understanding of how it *really* works.

Silly me, I thought you didn't really get corrupted until AFTER you got elected.

[SharonRB]

115. Amen to all that! n/t

[LVjinx]

206. Frankly, anyone who didn't see this coming has had blinders on for months.

[robinlynne]

58. because Obama is supposed to be to the left of Hillary.

[Marie26]

68. Says who?

IMO that was a false impression. They're both centrists.

[alstephenson]

191. Says who???

Says the MSM, of course. We are all being so used by the corporate media.

[robinlynne]

194. yes. they certainly are.

[robinlynne]

28. There goes the argument that he "had' to vote yes for some stupid reason.

[fasttense]

I always thought Clinton would give in to the people, if enough people spoke up.

But I've never thought that about Obama.

[TwilightGardener]

31. Clinton isn't the Dem nominee. It's easy for her now.

[Beacool]

144. You don't know Hillary.

Hillary will listen to everyone's opinion at meetings, but when she makes up her mind she stands by her decision.

[AmyCamus]

215. Obama is the Dem nominee. Voting the right way was easy for him.

Let's support our nominee, and not quibble.

[Yes We Did]

32. I don't even want to hear it.

I am so disgusted right now.

[Marie26]

37. Heads exploding, probably nt

[flpoljunkie]

44. Hillary Clinton first voted Aye, and then switched to No at the last minute!

[SharonRB]

That was on the procedural vote

[flpoljunkie]

97. Are you absolutely certain?

[Yes We Did]

100. NO... that is wrong. See below.

[SharonRB]

110. Yes, unless she did it twice

But I heard them say "nay" for her right away on the actual bill.

[flpoljunkie]

112. I thought I heard her vote Yes earlier, and then No at the very end of the voting.

[Yes We Did]

125. Her Yes vote was to strip immunity.

She voted no for the passage of FISA

[durrrty libby]

77. Nice try...but a lie

[Yes We Did]

93. she voted Aye to strip immunity and Nay on the final bill.

Thank you Hillary.

[Freddie Stubbs]

56. She doesn't have to worry about this being used against her in November

[Yes We Did]

184. Yes, but now Obama can legitimately be labeled a flip flopper

That is a REAL problem.

[Freddie Stubbs]

217. The original bill and the new one are not the same bills

[LVjinx]

207. Good for her. That's a spineless, cowardly way to determine how to vote.

[Indenturedebtor]

66. Not well. Not well at all. I will vote this fall but my hope is dead. I'm ashamed

I'm very ashamed at myself for all the years I've spent saying that Dems were better than pukes.

They just have better rhetoric. Where the metal meets the road they're ALL against us.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

70. Except for their votes on taxes, women's rights, equality, the environment etc.

[Indenturedebtor]

86. That's true. I will still vote but I feel like a girlfriend cheated on me

This was such an important moment in American Democracy. They collectively failed a very big test today.

[bullimiami]

27. the "patriot" act killed the constitution already.

and the failure of congress to provide oversight and uphold the laws and constitution of this country.

this fisa bill is just another kick in the groin.

[robinlynne]

36. The patriot act can be repealed. The telecom immunity can not.

[no limit]

29. I've been saying "the lesser of two evils" since Edwards dropped out. Welcome to the club

:hi:

[cherokeeprogressive]

30. Randi supports his vote. n/t

[Yes We Did]

33. I don't listen to her any more. I listen to Cenk.

[cherokeeprogressive]

35. Think she's uninformed? Not up on her game? Just flat out WRONG on issues?

As far as I'm concerned, she's about as astute a radio personality as there is. I just wish she'd be a little more patient with callers, and a little less vitriolic in general.

[Yes We Did]

38. I didn't say any of that. I listened to her for the last 3 years.

I just prefer Cenk these days.

And I think she and Obama are dead wrong about FISA.

[SharonRB]

39. I still like her, too

And she's much less vitriolic since she got away from AAR. She sounds so much happier.

[Yes We Did]

43. If Cenk wasn't on at the same time I'd still listen to her.

[Yes We Did]

41. Final Vote Tally: FISA passes 69/28 n/t

[robinlynne]

48. We have 28 patriotic Senators. That is the only positive thing I can think of at this

moment.

[Yes We Did]

52. Not much, is it?

[VP505]

62. Congress will be adjourning soon

for another vacation, while Congress Critters and Senators are at home everyone should make it a priority to stop by their offices at lest once and give them an earful on FISA. I know it won't change anything but it might make us feel a little better for them to know how disgusting their capitulation is.

[bdamomma]

98. those Senators who will be going on vacation again?

they need to hear from their constituents, really hear from their constituents, how they feel about this whole thing just call them out on it, and say WE THE PEOPLE what some answers.

[TooBigaTent]

104. No - you stop by where they are vacationing and speak to them directly.

There must be consequences for this kind of betrayal.

BAMN.

[redqueen]

69. Were they all Dems, at least?

[bdamomma]

91. I would like to see the official roll call vote list.

[Dukkha]

53. one more reason to hate America

as if any more reasons were needed

[elocs]

54. For all of those who are so sanctimoniously declaring they are no longer Democrats,

don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out and good luck with wherever it is you are going. I am still proud to be a Democrat and this party needs people to work hard to make it better, not quitters.

[cherokeeprogressive]

63. Well stated! ^5 n/t

[Yes We Did]

64. I don't think I heard anyone say they were jumping ship to the repugs.

I said I was no longer a democrat because as of today, there truly is no Democratic party.

If you want to twist words around, perhaps you should be on another message board.

[elocs]

85. You are entitled to your opinion. I am staying on this ship.

I think the Democratic Party will survive your declaration of its demise.

[Yes We Did]

99. I think the ship sank today. Time to build a new one.

Democracy II

[Political Tiger]

84. Agreed! n/t

[FiveGoodMen]

140. The Vichy Dems are counting on you

[The Backlash Cometh]

55. Well, I guess we cross him off the guest list, eh?

Obama, you're uninvited!

They're all worthless. The only thing that will even the playing field, is find out their dirty little secrets and expose them.

[glitch]

60. Nah - Democracy in the USA was murdered awhile ago. Now they're just dragging its body

through the street, while chanting USA! USA!

[redqueen]

78. Yup.

It's hard not to get the impression that it's all for show... just a good cop/bad cop routine... window dressing to make us think there's a chance for us to actually self-govern.

[Yes We Did]

81. No... It was just maimed repeatedly before....

Now it's Officially dead.

[redqueen]

89. That really is over the top.

Just sayin.

[Yes We Did]

145. Worse than "dragging it's body" around?

LOL... just saying

[redqueen]

148. Heh...

I guess I mean that this latest blow is not what killed it... today's vote wasn't some ultimate tragedy... just the latest in a long, long line of attacks.

[Yes We Did]

158. Yes, but today I feel betrayed.

I really do. I am angry. I am sad. I am disgusted.

And Obama and the rest of the cowards are my venting point.

[redqueen]

164. I understand.

I felt that way after the IWR vote.

Venting emotional turmoil is understandable... but we get a LOT of disrupting troll fucktards around here... saying they won't vote for Obama for wahtever dumbass reason... as if having McCain in office is better.

It's fucking maddening... and it makes people a little touchy about these things. :)

[Yes We Did]

169. Have no doubt... Obama gets my vote.

He is still better than ANYTHING the republicans have to offer.

I wasn't expecting this. I really wasn't.

And I'm sure I'll hear from someone (not you) what a dumb ass I was to not expect it. I just thought he was different; not a "typical" politician.

[redqueen]

175. No no no... not a dumbass... just very hopeful.

Nothing wrong with that at all... though the disappointment is quite discouraging.

:pals:

[Yes We Did]

177. Well thankyou very much.

:toast:

[PM7nj]

61. It's been dead for a while now.

:shrug:

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

71. Not exactly a profile in courage

I'm disappointed, frankly, and I've contributed $$$ to Obama's campaign.

[cascadiance]

72. I want instant runoff voting NOW!!!!

Sadly, I'm wondering if the atmosphere has to get *violent* and ugly before democracy returns! Now just about all of the systemic means of people affecting change are taken away from us. When people are desperate, other means (AS proscribed by the constitution) may be what happens!

[redqueen]

73. It's just the latest example of how complete the neo-lib takeover is.

The neo-cons have taken over the GOP... and the neo-libs are nearly done taking over our party.

[Yes We Did]

79. Wouldn't that be the anti-Neo-Libs???

Uber Liberal = Neo-Lib?

[redqueen]

83. No... neo-lib is a pro-choice, environmentally-conscious neo-con.

Corporatists... but "liberal-flavored" ones.

[Yes We Did]

94. OH, ok.

Fuck em all! Except the 28 who did the right thing today.

[durrrty libby]

76. The only real shock is that people seem genuinely surprised

Some finally awaken from The Swoon.

[Alhena]

80. Settle down Beavis

[Yes We Did]

90. I don't think so Butthead...

We should all be outraged.

[Occam Bandage]

87. ...you're that upset about telecom immunity? Laughable.

[Yes We Did]

92. I fail to see what is so damned funny.

[Occam Bandage]

95. If the biggest problem on your mind is

whether telecommunication corporations will have to field civil lawsuits regarding improper sharing of personal information in a government-sponsored program that was later found to have overstepped its Constitutional limits, then you've got a sweeter life than 99.999% of Americans. Wish I could say I didn't have real problems, too.

[Yes We Did]

102. That is just the crisis of the day

Sorry I have time to care about them all.

[Occam Bandage]

121. So, you really think that

shielding telecommunication companies from civil lawsuits regarding improper sharing of personal information in a government-sponsored program that was later found to have overstepped its Constitutional limits is the death of America? And you believe that a split vote on that immunity as part of a package to provide oversight to the federal intelligence system is tantamount to the death of the Democratic party?

I'd say you were pretty close to the mark on "this is just the crisis of the day." It'll pass. In a month you'll be screaming about the Death of America because of some other vote that didn't go your way. In two years nobody will give a shit about this one. In four years most people will have to google FISA to remember what it means. In eight years, only the politically-connected will know what it is.

[Yes We Did]

126. In two years people will just get used to being wiretapped... is that it?

It is more than just the telecoms immunity. It gives bush fucking free ride, and allows them to keep up this bullshit.

I value ALL my rights. ALL OF THEM.

I will not get over this. It is wrong. It is a blatant contradiction of everything that is good about this country.

Nothing you can say will get me to change my mind about that.

[Occam Bandage]

156. FISA's been around since 1978, bub. The problem was Bush was ignoring the warrant

requirement. This new bill returns oversight to FISA. It also grants immunity to telecoms from civil lawsuits, so as not to punish them for working with the government legally by forcing them to field civil suits. I disagree with this part of it, as does Obama; I think it isn't worth delaying the return of oversight to FISA, as does Obama. It does not grant immunity from criminal charges, so if there's any evidence they acted illegally, charges of course may still be pressed. It does not "give bush fucking free ride." It seems the only thing you know about this bill is that someone told you to be angry. Typical of the Internet.

[Yes We Did]

159. I am well aware of how long FISA has been around,

and I am well aware of what the bill passed today does.

I am angry. I have a great reason to be angry. I am angry because I told myself to be angry.

Stop the sarcasm. It only makes you look like an ass. BUB

[Occam Bandage]

162. Well, since you asked if people will get used to being wiretapped in two years,

it seems the answer would rather obviously be 'yes,' since they've had the last 30 years to get used to it.

[Yes We Did]

168. Not like this. Not like now. Not like under Bush.

That is the difference.

EVERYTHING is being recorded. You do get that right? EVERTHING. Everything we typed on here has been recorded.

Every conversation you have on the phone.

EVERYTHING!

And now it's all okay. Yeah, they MIGHT go after them for criminal charges after Obama gets to appoint a couple of judges. Maybe.

But forget any civil cases.

That is bullshit.

That is wrong.

And I am right to be angry.

[Occam Bandage]

171. Now you're mixing FISA with other government programs. Don't worry, happens all the time.

And don't worry, it didn't start under Bush, nor will it end with him.

[Yes We Did]

173. It's all tied together.

I'll just be glad when Bush is gone.

[Occam Bandage]

174. And I take it you won't mind it if his older clone is elected?

Seeing as the Democratic party is now dead to you, I'm not sure how you plan on getting the Bush-McCain dynamic duo out of power.

[Yes We Did]

178. Well, if you read the op all the way through...

or any of the other times I said it... probably about 12 times...

I said I am still voting for Obama.

Nice try though.

[Yes We Did]

181. And not to mention...

If it's no big deal, then why did the telecoms spend $13 million to get this passed?

Got an answer for that? Or just more snarking?

[snot]

211. what do you think is bigger?

I realize there are major, physical problems all over the place.

But we're talking about the fact that the system for fixing all other problems is totally broken.

We don't have election integrity; we don't have a functioning fourth estate (i.e., most Americans have little to no knowledge of the actual facts material to any important decision); the fundamental rights supposedly guaranteed by the Constitution are being eviscerated; and there seems to be no accountability anywhere.

How do you fix anything else under these conditions.

[Papa Boule]

101. Hmm. So what do we call this new government?

"Elective monarchy" doesn't quite capture it because, historically under those, governing or elite bodies select the monarch rather than the people.

"Constitutional monarchy" doesn't seem quite right because under one of those the monarch is bound by the country's constitution.

"Democratic monarchy" doesn't quite capture it either because it implies the will of the people is implemented or respected.

[Yes We Did]

105. I don't know what to call it....

how about the Liberatic party.

It just don't know whether to be pissed off or scared shitless at this point.

[mnhtnbb]

109. How about Brave New World. Or 1984.

[benny05]

189. eitther one n/t

[Catherina]

183. Order of the High Priesthood n/t

[SidneyCarton]

103. Are you finished?

If not, we will be organizing self-flagellation with voluntary hemlock drinking on the veranda in an hour.

If you're absolutely convinced democracy is dead, why are you here? If indeed all is lost, then all that is left is to run for the hills and "cling to guns and ideology." I choose to believe that this was the distasteful compromise necessary in order to gain the power to restore the Constitution. Perhaps I'm a fool, or perhaps just not caught up in the drama of the moment. I hope that after you have had a moment to think and breathe, you will understand this as well.

[Yes We Did]

107. If I ever come to the realization that losing the 4th amendment is no big deal...

please shoot me and put me out of my misery.

[SidneyCarton]

114. This isn't the 4th Amendment.

This is telecom immunity. The passage of this bill requires the use again of the FISA court, something that has not been enforced for the past year.

[Yes We Did]

117. This is goodbye to the 4th amendment.

Please don't rationalize it.

[SidneyCarton]

118. Read it on Randi's site if you don't believe me.

Or drink your hemlock like a good melodramatic, the choice is yours.

[Yes We Did]

128. I don't have to read it on Randi's site.

I understand what happened today.

I value all my rights, not just the convenient ones. Sorry you don't.

[SidneyCarton]

131. Clearly you don't, hence the tantrum.

There is more nuance to this issue than you imagine, but you insist on martyrdom and outrage. My condolences.

[Yes We Did]

133. Have a nice day surrending your liberties.

[SidneyCarton]

143. And to you as well,

May your evening spent in morose self-righteous indignation be well spent.

[Yes We Did]

146. Self righteous?

No, just very disappointed. And I have every right to be so.

[Yes We Did]

134. Got a link? I dont' find anything on there

[SidneyCarton]

142. Listen to the discussion with Jonathan Alter on June 26, 2008.

[Yes We Did]

147. As I said... Link?

[SidneyCarton]

152. Mea culpa,

she doesn't have it up on the site,

Do feel free to snark over my failures. But if you intend to crucify me, at least make sure you use the really big nails okay?

[Yes We Did]

154. I don't believe in crusifiction... or snarking at your failures.

I seriouly wanted to listen to it, to see if the points made would give me another perspective.

I'm not like that. I don't attack for the sake of attacking.

[Yes We Did]

151. And by the way... Even Randi herself just said that the FISA bill...

"gutted the fourth amendment"

her words, not mine.

[SidneyCarton]

153. Fine, enough.

Obviously we're doomed, I'll log off right now and head off to the hills to await doomsday.

[Yes We Did]

155. Why the sarcasm?

I simply wanted to point out that even she, your source of all sources, concedes that it is a direct attack on the fourth amendment. I don't see why you are so sarcastic about it.

You asked me to listen, and I am listening.

I know a lot of people snark for the "fun" of snarking... but I'm not one of them.

I don't believe in premptive war.

[SidneyCarton]

167. I appriciate your even-handedness

I've seen too much cruelty during the primaries to expect anything else than immediate flaming when a conclusive argument isn't given. I feel for your frustration, I truly do, but I think that our democracy can still be saved, it will require however that we have control of the levers of power. I see we deeply disagree on this topic. Let's let it lie at that.

[Yes We Did]

170. I really hope you are right.

And listening to Randi, I do feel a little better about this now. Although, I am still pissed off about the immunity.

But... if they do go after them with criminal charges I'll get over it.

And yes, it was very nasty around here during primary season. I think I must have set some word-per-minute typing records during them.

However, I rarely result to sarcasm or blatant "flaming". (at least i try hard) I really have to be provoked into it, and all the people who got me going seem to have been tombstoned.

[jgraz]

208. Jonathan Alter and Randi Rhodes: our two leading constitutional scholars.

Both of them have been shameful in their shilling on this issue. Alter has been particularly disingenuous, both with Randi and on Countdown. He is either completely misinformed or just lying out his ass.

Don't count on entertainers or hack journalists for your analysis of this bill. Read comments by real civil libertarians or, better yet, go read the bill yourself.

[snot]

212. could you give the link to randi's site that explains why this is not such a big deal?

[alstephenson]

192. For cryin' out loud, people...

Can't the guy just rant? There are many of us here that are very disappointed in the vote, especially Obama's vote - why are you so smug about this?

[Yes We Did]

200. It's pent up rage from the primary season.

I am just today's venting tool I guess.

[fascisthunter]

116. A Serious Question

what percentage of America votes in a General Election?

[Initech]

119. Fuck., Fuck. Fuck. King George became just that.

Fuck Washington DC and everyone in it. Congress, Senate, White House, fuck them all.

[Zorra]

120. Gosh, don't worry! There's a sunset provision, just like the Patriot Act!

Oh yeah...
:sarcasm:
:scared:

Congress...where the sun never sets.

[Yes We Did]

122. I thought that was just for Windows XP

[dave502d]

123. They can all go to hell. n/t

[Tyler Durden]

124. put not your faith in "LEADERS"

[femrap]

127. Here are the FISA results:

And gee whiz, who isn't on the list of those who did NOT VOTE for this particular piece of shit smeared onto our Constitution????

NAYs ---28

Akaka (D-HI)
Biden (D-DE)
Bingaman (D-NM)
Boxer (D-CA)
Brown (D-OH)
Byrd (D-WV)
Cantwell (D-WA)
Cardin (D-MD)
Clinton (D-NY)
Dodd (D-CT)

Dorgan (D-ND)
Durbin (D-IL)
Feingold (D-WI)
Harkin (D-IA)
Kerry (D-MA)
Klobuchar (D-MN)
Lautenberg (D-NJ)
Leahy (D-VT)
Levin (D-MI)
Menendez (D-NJ)

Murray (D-WA)
Reed (D-RI)
Reid (D-NV)
Sanders (I-VT)
Schumer (D-NY)
Stabenow (D-MI)
Tester (D-MT)
Wyden (D-OR)

Get out your pens and write the bad Dems....here they are. I guess we have three parties in this country: Dems, Republicans and Neocons....The following list represents the Republicans.

OBAMA
Baucus
Bayh
Carper
Casey
Conrad
Feinstein
Inouye
Johnson
Kohl
Landrieu
Lieberman
Lincoln
McCaskill
Mikulsik
Nelson
Nelson
Pryor
Rockefeller
Salazar
WEBB
Whitehouse

These Dems sicken me...Complicit in our demise as a Democracy.

[gateley]

136. Note: NOT ONE Republican voted against this.

The Dems should be ashamed.

[Beacool]

139. Hey, don't say some of us didn't turn blue warning you all about Obama.

But nooooo, Hillary didn't pass the purity test of the left wing and now we ended up with a presumptive nominee who has "adjusted" his position on several issues in the last two weeks.

Great going gang.......

:puke:

[Yes We Did]

141. No sour grapes.... And besides....

Who is to say she wouldn't have voted the same way had she won the nomination?

You don't know.

However, I applaud that she voted against it.

[Beacool]

150. I don't think that she would have changed her vote.

Hillary may agonize sometimes about a vote, but once she makes up her mind she sticks by her decision. She's also not afraid of controversy. Heck, what else could the left, the right and the media throw at her that they haven't thrown before???

[Occam Bandage]

157. Then you obviously haven't been paying attention to politics. Nominees always play to the center.

That's why Hillary racked up such a "centrist" record in the Senate--she was the presumptive 2008 Democratic nominee since '00.

[Yes We Did]

163. All I was saying was there is a stong possibility that she would have done the same.

But we will never know. So I give her credit for the vote she did cast.

Just as we give Obama credit for coming out against the war, even though he didn't have a vote at that point.

That is all I was trying to say.

[Beacool]

195. I understand your point.

In my case, I never was angry at Hillary for the IWR vote. I have always laid the blame for the war where it belongs, with Bush and company. By the same token, I never thought that it was so worthy of praise that a state senator opposed it from his safe niche in Springfield. I still remember when he told Russert in 2004 that he didn't know how he would have voted if he had been in the senate. I know that he has since retooled his message on that too. Whatever.....

:shrug:

[Yes We Did]

199. I have shifted my blame to the whole damned lot.

They all had a part in it. Get rid of them all and start fresh.

...and then I woke up.... right?

[Beacool]

204. I don't blame Hillary because I think I understand why she voted as she did.

First of all, she's the senator from NY and 9/11 had only happened a few months prior to the vote. The majority of her constituents approved of the resolution, as did 71% of the nation.

Second, she was a former first lady and knew first hand how opposing a president in matters of national security and foreign affairs could handicap him. I'm sure that she consulted with Bill on this matter.

[DS1]

180. waaaaaaaaah

:eyes:

[Yes We Did]

182. I know... right?

[alstephenson]

193. Shhhhhh!

Don't tell anyone, but I agree with you. A bit of "buyer's remorse" perhaps? I think our nominee was "selected" by the MSM. They got the nominee they wanted alright.

[Beacool]

196. Be careful, it's not safe to have such reactionary thoughts here.

Even though it's rewarding to see us being vindicated day by day as he keeps "adjusting" his position on the issues.

:D

[DangerousRhythm]

160. Oh, dear. "Messiah"?

Really? Who honestly called him that? :rofl:

[Yes We Did]

161. ...most of the Hillary supporters....

although I'm sure many of them were trolls.

[DangerousRhythm]

187. Haha, okay, gotcha.

I was gonna say... I really, truly don't know a single Obama supporter who's ever called him that. :D

[Yes We Did]

190. Nope... but I got a hillary supporter who called him it on my "flip flop" thread.

[Beacool]

197. Yep, we called him that and many other things. LOL!!!

:eyes:

[Yes We Did]

201. There was plenty of name calling from both sides.

Don't play innocent now....

[Beacool]

205. Nope, I'm just playing coy.........

:7

[ForrestGump]

165. Inexcusable? Yes. Death of US democracy? No.

Yes, it's disgusting. Yes, most of the Democrats in DC are essentially turncoats, for whatever reason(s), and have been so for years. Yes, I am totally outraged by the fact that they haven't done much of anything (other than capitulate and collaborate) to undo the Bush maladministration's excesses since they gained the majority and the power to do so. Yes, I know full well that the Democratic Party (as a whole) is not only far from leftist on a global scale but is not even very far that way by the standards of this right-wing nation. And, yeah, the Constitution has been utterly gutted, most fully by the ironically named 'Patriot' Acts but also by every antiAmerican bit of legislation that's been approved since.

And I believe we need new people representing us. Not that most of these clowns, Democrat and Republican alike, represent any Americans other than the legal individuals that are corporations.

But I think cries that this is the end of democracy are still hyperbole. I think that's so mainly because I've heard them here every time some evil little piece of legislation is passed. That's a lot of times. And, Groundhog Day (and the career of Dennis Miller) aside, how many times can something die before it's pronounced dead? I think we're close, but that there's still some hope. Admittedly, though, that hope's rapidly diminishing in the face of the cowardice or overtly obvious greed (power, money, etc) of our alleged representatives.

The only reason I'm somewhat calm about this latest outrage is that I expected it. I also knew that Obama is, like Hillary, just another corporatist lackey...admittedly a better choice than any Republican but still no prize. I'll vote for him, of course, but hardly with anything even approaching glee: in this nation, now very obviously run Of The Corporations, By The Corporations, For The Corporations, settling for the lesser of two evils appears our only choice. Some democracy.

[Yes We Did]

172. Yes... I might have been a little.... over-reactive....

I was writing as I watched the vote. And when Obama voted yes it just got me.

God... they're playing the results again....

We'll see what happens. I hope they nail that son of a bitch. (bush)

[snot]

213. how many times does something have to be mortally wounded

before you concede maybe we should be concerned that it might not going to be recover soon?

If anyone can point to a series of attacks on our rights as broad and severe as those we've suffered in the last 8 years and that we've fully recovered from, I'd like to hear about it.

I'm NOT saying give up the good fight. I AM saying, I've been around for a long time and never seen anything like this before.

I've heard all kinds of hopeful expressions during the last 8 years -- I expressed some of them -- about how these or those Dems were prolly going to come back and fix things when they had a chance; and guess what, they didn't.

The time for assuming anyone but us will fix things is over.

[kiranon]

176. Worry that in playing high stakes poker, Obama folds too soon

Experience gives one the knowledge of when to hold 'em and when to fold 'em. I think Obama folded too soon on FISA. He should have voted "nay". His voting "yes" lets the Republicans know that he is running scared. Not a good position to be in. Politics is high stakes poker and he needs to be tougher. He is clearly smarter but he needs to be psychologically more intimidating. I expect the Republicans will push even harder now. A "nay" vote would have made the Republicans more wary of him and view him as less easily manipulated. Watch out - rapids ahead. Hang on. Hope he picks someone for VP who can help play the game. Is there a Democratic Chaney but one who belives in the Constitution? Will vote for Obama and work on his campaign and hope he learns to say "nay".

[Yes We Did]

179. Exactly.

And if you thought they were calling him a flip-flopper before, just wait until the next round of ads.

[Beacool]

198. Obama is an appeaser, Hillary is not.

That's one of the things that I admire about her. She will fight to her last breath if she believes in a cause.

[Name removed]

185. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[durrrty libby]

186. Indeed..."Just Words"

[zonmoy]

202. Sounds like it is about time to break out the signs saying

"abandon all hope ye who enter here"

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

210. If I had a nickel for every time someone on this forum told me...

...that "Democracy has died today," I could buy my own private jet.

[AmyCamus]

214. We really should be supporting our nominee more.

He just won the Democratic nomination, and the person he DEFEATED voted the other way.
Let's support him!

[Beacool]

216. The person he "DEFEATED" voted the right way.

Support for any candidate is not automatic, it must be EARNED!!!

:shrug: