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I'm an idiot: I don't understand this FISA thing.

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ThatsMyBarack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-09-08 05:34 PM
Original message
I'm an idiot: I don't understand this FISA thing.
Why does its passing make it the end of the world for so many of us? :shrug:
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Hydra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-09-08 05:36 PM
Response to Original message
1. Legal spying on all Americans
Congress basically flushed the 4th Amendment down the toilet because Bush asked them to.
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ThatsMyBarack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-09-08 05:37 PM
Response to Original message
2. Can't this be repealed later on??
After all, Bush has less than 200 days left...
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EconomyCollapsesInUS Donating Member (43 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-09-08 05:45 PM
Response to Reply #2
6. It WON'T
I'll buy a round of drinks for EVERYBODY at DU if that happens.

There's a better chance of me shitting gold tonight, than there is of this bill EVERY being repealed.

It's a done deal, and that's Exactly how they want it.
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readmoreoften Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-10-08 06:00 PM
Response to Reply #2
18. Who'd repeal it? Wouldn't the MSM make mincemeat out of anyone who fought to repeal what they yea'd
?

How is that a "strong position"? Moreover, it is unnecessary to vote for FISA to win the election. Obama is scot free to do the right thing. But he won't. That does not bode well.
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gateley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-09-08 05:39 PM
Response to Original message
3. I think it's because it takes away one of our protections -- a "we don't need
no stinkin' fourth amendment" type of mentality, which has been Bushco's view all along regarding the Constitution.

Voting for the FISA bill, was voting with Bush.
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NattPang Donating Member (993 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-09-08 05:41 PM
Response to Original message
4. I don't know either.
The constitution was trashed
when 99 Senators voted for the Patriot Act in the year 2001.
In 2003, they voted for it again
and this time without a sunset clause.
Go read the Patriot Act II,
and you will clearly see that
today is just like the day before,
and those today
talking about the death
of the 4th amendment
are years too late.
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Pavulon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-09-08 05:44 PM
Response to Original message
5. About Discovery
since the mid 30's the NSA and its predecessors have intercepted foreign and domestic traffic on our telecom system. They directly interface with the public telecom system and will continue to do so. A guy pissed over a missed promotion does not have the right to expose a multi billion dollar classified system.

The actual methods used to do this work have changed over the years from intercepting ALL telegraphs pre ww2 to intercepting all data analog and digital carried over any wire or broadcast signal in the US. This is a given and those who deny it are misleading themselves.

The problem is that data and voice are converged and international and domestic converged with it. So the NSA needs it all.

The problem with this telecom stuff is that if anything proceeds to court operational data becomes exposed.

That creates two types of responses, the fuck it all tear it down crowd who see no problem with this system hitting the public domain and the realist crowd who understand that it will cost us billions to replace technology "outed" by civil actions carried out by the above fuck it all crowd.

These systems have been in place before Bush was born and will be in place after he is dead.

Like I posted a year ago, operational information about NSA operations will never, and should never see a trial court.

That is it in a nutshell.
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On the Road Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-09-08 05:46 PM
Response to Original message
7. It's a Worthwhile Experience to Read the Bill
Edited on Wed Jul-09-08 05:47 PM by ribofunk
Especially before listening to anyone claiming that the bill legalizes blanket spying on Americans (which it does not). Personally, I hadn't done that until a few days ago. It is much different from listening to second-hand depictions by various commentators.

http://www.politico.com/static/PPM104_080619_fisapromise.htm


On Edit: You're not an idiot, either. It's very difficult to get a handle on the specifics with all the demagogery flying around from every source.
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readmoreoften Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-10-08 06:08 PM
Response to Reply #7
21. So the ACLU and PFAW must not know what they're talking about on this one.
This sort of legislation is written in negative space. It authorizes by omissions, paragraph removal, and weak language. Beyond even the spying it fails U.S. history itself by undermining an attempt to document what went on between the telecoms and the Bush administration in a court of law. To understand what is "taken away" as well as what is "given" in a legal document, I'll get my blow-by-blow translation from the legal groups I trust thanks.

I trust that the People for the American Way, the American Civil Liberties Union, and the Electronic Frontier Foundation know what they're talking about on this one.
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Ytzak Donating Member (287 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-09-08 05:48 PM
Response to Original message
8. Because our representatives in the government re not on
record as refusing to protect and defend the Constitution. The President can comit fellonies and violate the Constitutional rights of American citizens and the House and Senate will unite to protect the President right to be a dictator.

There are no limits now on Presidential power. You can be disapeared and Democrats and Republican will unite to give immunity for those actions. We officially live in a dictatorship.
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RidinMyDonkey Donating Member (290 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-09-08 05:49 PM
Response to Original message
9. I'm not going to pretend that I understand FISA entirely
So someone please correct me if I am mistaken, as I hate to be wrong.

From what I gathered, what makes it worse than previous attacks on the fourth amendment is that it's also granting immunity to those telecoms who broke the law by illegally spying on Americans.
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Pavulon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-09-08 05:50 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. Telecoms don't spy
they are the middle man. TLA's take information and use it.
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RidinMyDonkey Donating Member (290 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-09-08 05:53 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. So, what do they need immunity for?
I'm pretty confused on all this FISA stuff as well.
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Pavulon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-10-08 05:55 PM
Response to Reply #12
15. The path they choose to use to provide
data upstream is questionable. There is a good book "Puzzle Palace" and "body of Secrets" that cover the NSA really well. This issue is covered in a pretty good format.
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librechik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-10-08 06:27 PM
Response to Reply #12
22. they don't .they get it automatically when they tap using warrants
they just don't have any warrants for some folks they taped, and that is a crime. They were sued (rather than prosecuted) because the DOJ will NEVER bring criminal charges against the telecoms who "helped them." BTW, nobody knows who they eavesdropped on or why, they have avoided giving out any details of the program that had FBI officials threatening to resign because of the obvious illegality.

So the telecoms don't need immunity, they have it. Who needs the immunity ?(that is, who needs the civil court cases to be dismissed so that evidence is never gathered?

Why it's Bush and Company! If the lawsuits had been allowed to proceed, soon enough evidence to put the Bush Gang in jail for many years would be revealed. And they all were desperate--to the point of destroying our Constitution and the rule of law-- to avoid those lawsuits. Not because of the expense, but because the wrongdoing would be so blatant that they would be FORCED to prosecute, and good heavens, we can't have that!
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Breeze54 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-10-08 06:00 PM
Response to Reply #10
17. What a load!!!!
Edited on Thu Jul-10-08 06:20 PM by Breeze54
http://w2.eff.org/Censorship/Terrorism_militias/fisa_faq.html

Why is there a special legal regime for "foreign intelligence" surveillance?

The path to FISA has two branches, political and judicial.

The government had long maintained that it had extensive discretion to conduct wiretapping or physical searches in order to protect national security. In Katz v. United States, 389 U.S. 347 (1967), the Supreme Court acknowledged that the President had claimed special authority for warrantless surveillance in national security investigations, and explicitly declined to extend its holding to cases "involving the national security." Id. at 358 n. 23. Similarly, Congress in Title III stated that "nothing in Title III shall . . . be deemed to limit the constitutional power of the President to take such measures as he deems necessary to protect the United States against the overthrow of the Government by force or other unlawful means, or against any other clear and present danger to the structure or existence of the Government."

On the political front, such executive branch activities, charitably described as "some degree of domestic overreaching of intelligence into domestic areas," had long been tolerated. Staff of House Permanent Select Comm. on Intelligence, 104th Cong., Staff Study, IC21: Intelligence Community in the 21st Century at 272 (comm. print 1996).

But in the 1970s the political winds changed. The 1975-76 Church Committee hearings documented extraordinary federal government abuse of surveillance powers. Examples included the the NSA's Operation Shamrock and Operation Minaret, CIA's Operation CHAOS, the FBI's COINTELPRO domestic harassment of dissenters and anti-war protesters that included illegal wiretapping, and the illegal burglaries of the Nixon White House "plumbers."

The Church Committee Report found that covert action had been excessive, had circumvented the democratic process, and had violated the Constitution. It concluded that Congress needed to prescribe rules for intelligence activities.

On the judicial front, the Supreme Court first confronted the tension between unmonitored executive branch surveillance and civil liberties in United States v. U.S. District Court, 407 U.S. 297 (1972), in which the United States charged defendants with conspiracy to destroy government property. Defendants sought electronic surveillance information, held by the prosecution, that the CIA obtained during a potentially illegal wiretap, wanting to ascertain whether the government had relied on information in the indictment or the case for conviction and to suppress any tainted evidence at trial. The Attorney General admitted that a warrantless wiretap had intercepted conversations involving the defendants.

Before the Supreme Court, the government defended its actions on the basis of the Constitution and the Title III national security disclaimer. The Court rejected the statutory argument, saying that "Congress . . . simply did not legislate with respect to national security surveillances." As for the constitutional argument, the Court accepted that the President had the power "to protect our Government against those who would subvert or overthrow it by unlawful means" and that this power justified electronic surveillance of would-be subversives.

Invoking the "broader spirit" of the Fourth Amendment and "the convergence of First and Fourth Amendment values" in national security wiretapping cases, however, the Court was especially wary of possible abuses of the national security power. The Court then balanced "the duty of Government to protect the domestic security, and the potential danger posed by unreasonable surveillance to individual privacy and free expression," and found that waiving the Fourth Amendment probable cause requirement could lead the executive to "yield too readily to pressures to obtain incriminating evidence and overlook potential invasions of privacy and protected speech." Justice Powell wrote that the inconvenience to the government is "justified in a free society to protect constitutional values."

The Court emphasized that this case involved only the domestic aspects of national security: "We . . . express no opinion as to, the issues which may be involved with respect to activities of foreign powers or their agents." It invited Congress to act: "Given these potential distinctions between Title III criminal surveillances and those involving the domestic security, Congress may wish to consider protective standards for the latter which differ from those already prescribed for specified crimes in Title III. Different standards may be compatible with the Fourth Amendment if they are reasonable both in relation to the legitimate need of Government for intelligence information and the protected rights of our citizens."

These two paths, political and judicial, converged in the enactment of FISA.

----------

Why is FISA dangerous?

Most important, FISA powers are broad and vague, and the secrecy of FISA proceedings makes FISA powers susceptible to abuse.


FISA power extends well beyond spies and terrorists. It can be used in connection with ordinary criminal investigations involving United States citizens who live in this country and who may be charged with offenses such as narcotics violations or breaches of an employer's confidentiality. 50 U.S.C. §§ 1806, 1825.

For instance, electronic surveillance under § 1801(f)(1) only reaches wire or radio communications "sent by or intended to be received by a particular, known United States person who is in the United States, if the contents are acquired by intentionally targeting that United States person" and a warrant would ordinarily be required. If the U.S. person is not "known," or more important, not "intentionally" targeted, it simply isn't "electronic surveillance" under § 1801(f)(1).

Note also that FISA expressly contemplates that it will produce "unintentionally acquired information." § 1806(i). But while this section requires the destruction of such information, it only applies to "the contents of any radio communication," only if a warrant would have been required, and only if both the sender and intended recipients are within the United States.

Given these limits, one may presume that "unintentionally acquired information" outside these lines is not destroyed. That would include all "unintentionally acquired"wire or electronic communications.
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slipslidingaway Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-09-08 05:52 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. And interfering in the judicial process, n/t


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Disturbed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-09-08 05:54 PM
Response to Reply #9
13. the basics
1. Restored the FISA court oversight so that the administration can no longer snoop on citizens without a "warrant" (i.e. court approval). Good thing.

2. Granted CIVIL CASE immunity to telecom companies for violations of the 4th amendment during the past year when the administration was operating without FISA court oversight. bad thing

3. Did NOT grant CRIMINAL CASE immunity to telecom companies for violations of the 4th amendment during the past year when the administration was operating without FISA court oversight. good thing.

scheming daemons
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tkmorris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-10-08 06:02 PM
Response to Reply #13
20. That's just not accurate, sorry
"1. Restored the FISA court oversight so that the administration can no longer snoop on citizens without a "warrant" (i.e. court approval)."

It didn't restore anything. FISA court oversight already existed, the Bush admin merely ignored it. The new bill weakens that oversight rather emphatically.

"3. Did NOT grant CRIMINAL CASE immunity to telecom companies for violations of the 4th amendment during the past year when the administration was operating without FISA court oversight."

Irrelevant. Telecoms were never going to get prosecuted in any criminal case, and still won't. The only real mechanism for holding them responsible was the civil courts. They now get away scot-free.
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KG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-09-08 06:33 PM
Response to Original message
14. nothing to worry about, it's just some 'petty self-interest'.
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Breeze54 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-10-08 05:59 PM
Response to Original message
16. Because now we can't even GET the evidence needed to convict BushCo and his cronies!
Edited on Thu Jul-10-08 05:59 PM by Breeze54
Not to mention the illegal wiretapping going on!! :grr:

I kind of liked having the Constitution! I used it every day!!

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Hekate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-10-08 06:00 PM
Response to Original message
19. Don't worry dear, you're not meant to understand it. Big Brother will take care of all that.
:sarcasm: (in case it wasn't obvious)

Hekate

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