The American Dream is over.

[Writer]

There is no sense in aiming for a house you can't afford, cars you can't afford to drive, furniture you intend to buy, excessive numbers of toys for your children, that extra meal out, or anything more when:

- your income isn't keeping up with inflation
- housing prices have skyrocketed
- oil prices have skyrocketed
- financing options are stretching out families into debts lasting anywhere from ten to thirty years
- the catch-22 of a college education - getting into debt but not earning enough to pay it off quickly

Our expectations have outmatched our ability to afford them. No longer should we expect to live well in this country without incurring an incredible amount of debt.

And if you're between the ages of 30 and 45 you likely REALLY understand what I'm talking about.

[Pale Blue Dot]

1. I don't usually agree with you, but this is spot-on

And everyone will know within the next few months.

[DaveJ]

30. Let me guess, you have a plan...

Will you ride out the next Great Depression with a paid off slab of land and healthy savings to boot? This survivalist mentality manifests itself everywhere.

Whatever happens we will all be in it together. Except, of course, for the survivalists who have planned the ride out ahead of time.

I'm just guessing. Probably, most predicting the end of the financial world are those who have their own little personal compound, and can't wait for it to happen. Just a guess.

The rest will go on living day by day and do whatever it takes, just like they always have.

[Pale Blue Dot]

58. Lol. Not even close.

I hate guns, I have very little savings, and I really hope it doesn't happen. However, pesky little things like "the facts" have convinced me that it will, whether I want it to or not.

It will hurt me just as much as the rest of us.

[Fovea]

70. Actually, i am on the other end of the scale.

I survive by grace of a large handful of pills, and four injections a day.

When it crashes, I will die.

But not alone.

[Wcross]

115. Isn't survival the number one priority for most people?

You sound as if you scorn those who prepare for possible problems in the future. You even project your own thoughts into theirs. Why you would have a problem with people who use their OWN funds to prepare for possible bad times is beyond me. Are you suggesting that it is somehow wrong to take a personal interest in your own survival?

[tburnsten]

137. I notice this as well

Why the scorn and derision towards people who have taken the time to plan ahead and attempt to minimize the amount of harm they suffer during a major economic event? So they plan ahead more than you would, big deal.

[Wcross]

142. I guess food comes from grocery stores.........

The grocery stores are always full & people always have plenty of money to buy food. Nothing can ever change in that regard!



OR the human equivalent;

[arcadian]

2. You have to be asleep to believe in it.

RIP George

[PassingFair]

4. Even MANAGEMENT is waking up.

:scared:

[TwilightGardener]

3. Sorry, what does this have to do with FISA? You need to make your post FISA-relevant

or take it to the Lounge.

[TwilightGardener]

6. BTW, I do agree that our standard of living is in decline. Just a matter

of whether we can reverse it.

[man4allcats]

5. Awh-h-h, quitcher bitchin'! Look at the bright side.

Nobody lives forever. You'll be free of it when you're dead. :evilgrin: :sarcasm:

[clovis29]

7. This is a blip

Now that we will have the presidency and the congress, we will have the chance for our American Dream.

The repukes and their companies will have to release their hold on the money that they get from all of us.

The rip-off of our tax dollars can finally stop.

[SammyWinstonJack]

64. .

:spray: :rofl:

[Wcross]

117. You don't realize how wrecked our economy is do you?

Even if Obama had taken over LAST year it would have been to late to avoid whats coming.

[mountainvue]

125. Are you sharing the pills with the

guy a few posts up? If so, pass them on will you?

[liberalmuse]

8. This is the first time I've seriously thought of buying a house...

and it's also the first time I'm glad to be a renter. My job is as stable as a job can be, but still... I just moved to buy a couple months time to decide on a house, but now I don't think I can bring myself to actually buy a house right now. The funny thing is, I'm inching closer and closer to the Canadian border with every move.

[cliffordu]

71. I can see the Canadian border from a hill in my little town.....

A two hour boat ride.....

[lynettebro440]

101. I applied a couple of days ago

for a job up in Toronto. Used to work for the american insurance company and their hub is there. I'm waiting to see if I get a response.

[Fovea]

9. But hey, wasn't it one hell of a party?

Building 3000 sqft minimansions in cornfields to get away from dark people.

Driving Escalades all alone across the vast interstate highways.

Bombing the crap out of anyone who wouldn't kiss our ring.

Eating a one pound steak at Outback five nights a week.

And the head candy of Playboy Channel, Wrasslin, 24hour huntin and fishin shows, FAUXSNOOZE, and when we felt at all guilty about it all, Republican Jesus telling us it was all ok, as long as fags couldn't marry.

We are as I write this, the fattest, poorest educated, and least healthy of all the first world nations.

And that is just the way we liked it!

But unlike the last time we had this much fun, no body is going to go into a bunker and blow their brains out. They'll get a nice industry job, and maybe a Regnary book contract... or maybe go to work for a bottled water company in Paraguay.

That's some party that Murica had.
Talkin bout my generation.
Sorry that it's over, kids.

[Newsjock]

10. K&R for this reply!

That says it all. I guess that makes me elitist.

[Wcross]

119. I also appluad your reply.

Now it is time for the hang over.

[aspergris]

11. oh spare me

The economy SUCKS right now, but it's sucked before, and it will suck again.

It goes through cycles.

Naysayers like you have appeared before. Heck, when enough negativity appears (we haven't seen it yet) THAT's when you see a turnaround. It's darkest before the light, and all that.

My grandfather who taught me how to save, invest, and make my own american dream (a classic success story - poor minority makes good in the big city) saw the EXACT same thing in the depression ... the naysayers... the dream is over crowd... - it was the END of the american dream, bla bla bla.

Some of us have vision. The vision to see that there are SERIOUS problems but there is also the same american spirit, ingenuity etc. that will lead us out of this mess - as it always does.

It's seemed VERY VERY bad before. Study history, or be doomed to repeat it.

Fwiw, I am in my 40's, and living the american dream. Been a Union member for years, homeowner, (not a picket) fence, suburbia, etc. The dream is not dead.

[Elwood P Dowd]

13. Sorry, but the dynamics are totally different today.

We have shipped millions of middle class jobs out of the country the past 25 years. We have run up trillions of dollars in budget an current account deficits the past 25 years. We have gone from a country producing value-added products to a country with a debt-based, consumption economy. The foundation is gone. It will take decades to bring back what we once had. There is no history to study in this regard, because we have never in history transferred so much wealth from the middle class and poor to the wealthy, both foreign and domestic, as we have since the 1980s. We are toast!

[aspergris]

14. The oldest canard

Just ask any trader (myself included).

It's ALWAYS "different this time".

ALWAYS

Every single major event is THE Catastrophic one.

Again, study history.

They (the naysayers ALWAYS say that). And they always have myopic rationalizations as to why it's true. And they are always wrong

Reminds me of how I would see "Storm of the Century" on the news, and then months later - ANOTHER "storm of the century"

I live in a neighborhood full of american dreams - diverse races, politics, etc. but lots of success and dreams fulfilled.

Take a trip to the library. Read some microfiche from the great depression - which was WAY WAY WAY WAY worse than the current situation.

Heck, read the Extraordinary Madness of Crowds.

The foundation is not gone. This is just naysaying rubbish imo.

[Elwood P Dowd]

18. Show me history

where we have run up 17 trillion dollars in budget/current account deficits, shipped 10 million jobs out of the country, driven down real rages for the average worker by 20%, created a net negative savings rate for the majority of Americans, driven down the value of the dollar by 40%, become dependent on foreign sources for most of our consumer goods, borrowed trillions from Communist China, Saudi Arabia, Japan, UAE, Korea, and other countries, turned over the government totally to corporate lobbyists, trashed the constitution, and created an economy where 70% of the GDP is dependent on borrowing money to buy foreign-made junk.

[aspergris]

22. And

I'll show you the situation was MUCH MUCH worse in the great depression

For pete's sakes. Study some stock charts. THat's the quickest proxy to get a grip.

I mean no rational person can claim the situation is anywhere NEAR as bad as the great depression. We've had a # of recessions that were about on par with where we are now, but even the great depression was not "The End".

For pete's sake.

And yes, we have significantly DAMAGED the constitution but we have FAR more rights than we did 75 years ago. For pete's sake, we have (some) gay marriage, we have interracial marriage, we have WAY more search and seizure protection. Wanna talk case law? Mapp, Miranda, Escobedo, Tennesee v. Garner.

heck, before FISA even EXISTED we weren't talking about erosion of FISA. there WAS no FISA. I just read an article by a guy who worked for the NSA (and its predecessor) and the protections we had were WAY less.

People were JAILED for merely protesting WWI.

How much was the constitution TRASHED for a black man (or woman) in 1920?

Wanna take 4th amendment law? 1st amendment law? Wanna talk about how we imprisoned japanese during WWII for NO reason other than their race?

Histrionic, myopic rubbish.

[Elwood P Dowd]

27. It's obvious that you are a republican. Why are you here?

You have their talking points down pat. You've been a member less than two weeks, and you are on this board masquerading as a progressive.

[aspergris]

29. No, I am on this board

Telling you that it is not the end of the american dream.

Fwiw, I am 100% certain that Barack Obama, our candidate - doesn';t think the American dream is over.

Is he a Republican?

Again, you can't respond to my points about case law (Mapp, Miranda, Escobedo, Garner), or statistics about the market and the economy (do you want to compare wealth erosion now vs. then?)

It is not republican to believe the American Dream is not over.

You, in fact, don';t sound like a progressive. You sound like a parody of a progressive BY a rightwinger. Iow, a funhouse mirror version

[tchunter]

110. ZOMG! he disagreed with you!

he must be a republican! get out the torches and pitchforks, chase him out of town!

[sudopod]

134. WTF

Because the above poster isn't ready to cut their wrists and drown in angst, they must not be an omg TRUE PROGRESSIVE?

I mean, heck, the very word "progressive" implies that we are working toward a better future.

Also, they have a point about that Great Depression thing. We're in a rough spot now (as someone who makes around 18k before taxes, believe me, I know) but historically we're no where near the bottom.

[tired]

138. What does the length of time on this sight have to do with his post?

I've been a member for over a year and he has posted more than I have. The American Dream is not over.

[Common Sense Party]

75. Don't you know that to be a "progressive" means you must be a pessimist?

If you do not believe the sky is absolutely falling and we're all doomed, then you are a fascist Freeper.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

20. Good god, you sound like Joseph Kennedy's shoeshine boy.

You know, the one he referred to when he proclaimed that something was seriously awry with the markets.

[aspergris]

25. I sound like somebody

who has studied history and thus has historical perspective.

One of the most persistent aspects of adult learning (and perception) is recency, which is best seen as a sort of myopia and nowhere is it more present than in this thread. People seriously have NO idea how BAD it was at times in this country, how immeasurably worse.

People were using 10:1 and more leverage on the market via frigging bucket shops! Sure, your IRA might be down 20-30% right now if you are not hedged. These people not only lost 100% of the value, but they were placed in debt because of the leverage.

Soup lines, hoovervilles.

get.. R E A L

[cliffordu]

73. Stay tuned. Every recovery was dependant on the supply of cheap energy.

It ain't cheap anymore, nor will it be ever again.

Reads you some of that Peak Oil, or visit Clusterfuck Nation, or the Oil Barrel dot com......

I hope every financial big shot claiming the Phil Graham line that we are all just a bunch of pussies for understanding this is more than just 'part of the cycle' gets what ma used to call "Just desserts".

Buy low sell high!!

edit for klarity (sic)

[aspergris]

98. again, no vision

"It ain't cheap anymore, nor will it be ever again."

riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight.

Do you have such an incredible lack of vision that you think that oil is our only future source of energy?

Here's a hint. Invention, paradigm shifts, new technologies, etc. have happened scores of times and they will continue to happen.

Are people today bemoaning the lack of whale oil? The jobs lost due to that pesky cotton 'gin?

Cynics know the price of everything, but the value of nothing

[cliffordu]

100. Your nievete is charming.

All those solutions should have started 30 years ago. Carter was right.

Nothing will happen until it hurts so bad it has to.

If you believe, buy a hummer.

[aspergris]

107. necessity

mother ... invention...

rinse, lather, repeat.

[natrat]

112. maybe your right maybe your wrong

but why would the government go to such lengths to establish a police state if something wasn't up that's going to cause massive social unrest; and don't give me that terrorism bullshit

[mrreowwr_kittty]

16. The operative phrase being: "Been a Union member for years"

You are very lucky for being in that situation. Try to be a little more empathetic to the vast majority of Americans who, through no fault of their own, don't have the kind of protections you do.

Apart from that, you sound like a typical wingnut. Just saying.

[aspergris]

19. If I sound like a Wingnut for saying the American Dream ISN'T over

then sign me up, man

I mean get frigging real!

"The american dream is over... " bla bla bla

study history.

It's histrionic rubbish. And EVERY SINGLE TIME - "it's over"... it isn't

If you can't learn from history, and have faith in this nation, then I can't help you.

That's not "wingnut". That's realistic, historically/factually based, and proud. And Yes. I am those.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

23. If you know history, then you know that the last time our country emerged from

a situation like this was when there was a total paradigm shift. It was when FDR made a massive investment in our infrastructure AND instituted massive regulation of corporations. We're at that turning point now. Are we going to buy into a hollow Hoover/McCain promise of "success is right around the corner", or are we going to embark on the scary prospect of a New Deal? It's up to you.

[aspergris]

26. not even close

We are not even CLOSE to being in as bad shape as we were in the great depression.

And only somebody completely ignorant of history could claim we are.

for pete's sake. Read some history.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

33. And people living during the Great Depression

Weren't nearly as bad off as those living during the Great Plague. And those people weren't as bad off as those living during the Crusades. So what? You go ahead and play Misery Olympics. I'm going to concentrate on moving FORWARD, not backward. The fact is that this country has the greatest disparity in wealth in the industrialized world. Our infrastructure is crumbling, and we are woefully lagging in renewable energy and public transit. We don't have universal health care. Our education system is an embarassment. I could go on. You get the point. You keep cheerleading for the plutocrats. I'm sure they'll give you a gold star, or a pat on the ass. We'll go on without you.

[aspergris]

37. Who is this "we"?

The ignorati who think the american dream is over?

Like I said, you guys are always around in times of trouble and uncertainty. And you are always wrong.

The american dream is not over. We've had 8 years of bushco, the economy is f*cked. But the american dream aint over. Lots of people livin' it, and lots more will.

Where's the hoovervilles?

[mrreowwr_kittty]

42. Where are the Hoovervilles?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CnnOOo6tRs8

[aspergris]

43. Btw, just to dispel this "freeper" accusation

Let me make this clear.

The economy is F*CKED.

The Economy was NOT f*cked during clinton's presidency.

Clinton was a good president.

Bushco is not

Is that clear enough?

Bush spends like a 2nd wife with a platinum card.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

45. As will McCain.

BTW, I don't think you're a freeper. I just think you've drunk a little too much of the Corparate Kool Aid. Try to remember that you belong to a Union and that the plutocrats DON'T have your best interests in mind. That's all I'm asking. :)

[aspergris]

46. Mccain won't spend jack cause he won't win...

But with that in mind...

I haven't drank too much corporate kool aid, but I do not HATE corporations. Some are run by good people, some not so much. Some do a lot of good, some do some good, and some do not so much good.

But I *do* believe in capitalism. Not a unfettered capitalism, but a capitalism with a decent social safety net.

Unions are advocacy groups. They don't fight for THE good, much like corporations don't either. They fight for THEIR best interests. The friction between management and unions often results in reasonable compromise. In some cases, not so much. But I hardly think Unions are all good or management is all bad.

Unions have to realize that the corp HAS to make a profit or they won't be there at all. Management has to realize that the workers matter and need to be treated fairly.

And that's what I think about that.

I'm sarcastic and I'm realistic. But I am not nihilistic and I will not ignore reality. And in my (informed) :) opinion, there are no signs the american dream is over.

And I am also optimistic because Obama along with a dem congress is a good thing and things will get better

[Fovea]

76. Right across the kansas river from me

is a hooverville.

A large tractor trailer storage facility that usually houses anywhere from a dozen to twenty some homeless.

The company doesnt even try to stop it anymore.
A local street preacher would go down there and try to run
them out, to get them to be honest working citizens.
They finally found his body last year.

Ten years ago, it only had one or two at a time.
I'd post pics, but I don't dare take a camera there.

[Political Heretic]

109. Try East St. Louis.

I'm just sayin

[MattSh]

84. So, this is as bad as this one will get?

Are you sure? Just because we had a Great Depression, does that mean we cannot have another one? If there can only be one Great Depression, can there be a Greater Depression? Is it not possible that this economic downturn can't get 10% worse, 20% worse, 50% worse, or 100% worse? Are you sure?

Are you willing to bet the bank? Are you willing to bet it all that your union will protect you through thick and thin? I'm sure a lot of autoworkers and steelworkers thought the same thing.....

[Elwood P Dowd]

28. Will the mods please do something with this freeper.

:banghead:

[aspergris]

31. Please quote

ONE thing I said that was "freeper" ....

I've never BEEN to free republic, but you are apparently an expert on ferreting out stealth freepers in our midst.

oh noes!!!!!! he doesn't think the american dream is over. he must be a freeper.

[Elwood P Dowd]

32. Get a life jerk.

Show me your history where we have run up 17 trillion in budget/current account deficits. Show me your history where we have shipped millions of jobs out of the country with fake free trade deals. You're a freeper using republican talking points and sound exactly like my freeper brother-in-law.

[aspergris]

35. I already provided case cites and data

Compare - Stock market 1929 to today

Compare case law- for pete's frigging sake we have gay marriage now, we have FOR THE FIRST TIME IN HISTORY sodomy laws ruled unconstitutional, etc.

etc.

I'll stick to facts, thanks.

Does your freeper brother in law support - pro-choice, Obama, gay marriage and universal health care?

If he does, then I sound JUST like him!!!

:eyes:

[Elwood P Dowd]

44. Half the American people have nothing in the stock market

It's fucking paper changing hands. Can I eat a stock certificate? Will some stock in Wal Mart bring back millions of Americans jobs that have been shipped out of the country? And, just how well has the DOW performed since your hero George W. Bush has been in office?

Your history doesn't take into account the massive shift of wealth and jobs. This "read your history" shit does not apply to what's happening today. The middle class is being gutted with debt from the new debt-base consumption economy. People are using their homes and credit cards in attempt to keep up, and it ain't working.

It's obvious you're a talking point freeper trying to give yourself cover by saying you support Obama. Give me some more of your lies and talking points. Why don't you go back to the 1800s with your legal crap?

[aspergris]

47. How wrong you are

Stock is not merely paper. Stock is PIECES of a company. It's OWNERSHIP.

One example. I bought Pixar (PIXR) when Steve Jobs took over. Why? Because he's a genius manager. I bought a PIECE of that company. And I was rewarded. I like that system. A system that allows you to own pieces of great companies. This is hardly unique to america, obviously. See: Cac-40, FTSE 100, etc.

But since you are still creating strawmen and living in delusion, claiming that Bushco is my hero (lol) , you are clearly not interested in a reasonable discussin.

Your erudite knowledge of case law can best be summed up by your own description "legal crap"

Try pontificating less. You are arguing from a position of lots of opinion/rhetoric and almost no real knowledge.

[Elwood P Dowd]

51. You're the one with no real knowledge and nothing but republican talking points.

My uncle in Texas has some pieces of paper. Says he owns some of Enron. How much will you give him for it?

Half the American people have nothing invested in the stock market. A large percentage of the other half have pieces of paper that are slowly becoming worthless. Most Americans now have a negative savings rate. Jobs being outsourced by the millions, yet you say it's only opinion/rhetoric? You have yet to say anything about the trillions in budget and current account deficits. Why are you dodging that? Real wages for the middle class are falling like a rock when you use "real" CPI figures instead of the fake core figures. You are totally full out shit and republican talking points.

[aspergris]

95. Anything you don't understand is....

"republican talking points"

That is a sophomoric debating tactic, to put it mildly.

I love this "slowly becoming worthless"

Again, I have #'s. You have rhetoric.

There has NEVER been a 20 yr period in the HISTORY of the stock market (which goes back to the 1800's) where dollar cost averaging into the baseline index wasn't a winning strategy.

EVER

again, I have #'s and you have slurs.

Of course ENE is worth buttkiss. It went bankrupt. That's how capital markets work. Some companies prosper. Some don't. There's no guarantees.

Heck, over 3/4 of new businesses in many areas fail. That's not an indictment of capitalism.

The way you take advantage is DIVERSIFICATION. I made some investments that did terribly. But overall, I have done great because I diversify and buy great companies (US and Foreign I might add). I especially like to buy them when the cynics say the sky is falling.

People like you create value.

[kineneb]

102. some of us don't have any liquid assets...period

Stocks? Insurance? Ownership? All that is left is the house and car.

Can you say "medical bankruptcy?" For many of us, the "dream" has been dead for years. Once at the bottom, it is almost impossible to climb back up.

So do I just slit my wrists now, or later? So I can "die and decrease the surplus population."

[tnlefty]

130. Curious, why are your references consistently the stock market?

Nothing about tremendous job losses, housing losses, decreasing wages and increasing prices, merely the stock market.

Here's what's happening around me:

Plants closing and moving out of the country. People losing their jobs with no decent paying jobs available. People are losing their homes. More and more people are having a hard time keeping the electricity on and the bills paid. The high school principal where my kids attend school talking about how when she was a teenager working was optional and it was for spending money for the expensive items that parents refused to indulge the kids in. Now high schoolers are working to help their working parents stay afloat, and 3 minimum wage jobs still makes staying afloat difficult. The local food bank has increased demands but the community can't afford to donate as much, and on and on...

Could you please explain to me just how the stock market relates to these very real issues?

Surely you're kidding when accusing someone of pontificating.

[lastliberalintexas]

132. S/he posted that s/he is a trader

Somewhere upthread, I don't remember which post. But it does explain why her/his point of reference is so skewed.


And our local food bank is suffering the same fate. :(

[tnlefty]

136. I noticed that and it does help to explain the skewed point of

reference. I just found the avoidance behavior and taking off on tangents a little odd. :hi:

Unfortunately, I think that more and more people in more places are hurting. :(

[EOTE]

81. Take it easy!

Aren't there rules about calling people out like that? I believe there are. I don't for a second believe that aspergris is a freeper. Just because someone disagrees with you on one issue doesn't mean you should completely disrespect him/her.

[sudopod]

135. Srsly, who peed in your cornflakes this morning? nt

[BigDaddy44]

111. Wow

I'm stunned. Does professing a belief that the American dream still alive make one a freeper?

Must one be totally despondent about the future of America to belong? I really need to read the rules a bit closer.

[Truth4Justice]

49. I wish I had your optimism. Things look pretty bleak for many many people.

Do the math here:

1. Millions of US jobs sent elsewhere over the last 20 years.

2. Businesses closing down due to economy/lack of sales/high freight costs.

3. Millions of people owe so much they will never pay it off.

4. Millions cannot save anything at all. They have bills to pay and no extra income.

5. Come winter heating fuel bills will be through the roof. We haven't seen the worst, yet.

6. People are spending much more of their income on energy costs, food, and other items.

I don't see the rainbow or the light at the end of the tunnel, but if you do, thats OK by me.

[ladjf]

61. And to add to your list, the deteriorating environment, weather,

animal and plant extinction rates, and the declining reserves of natural resources.

[Fovea]

72. Ask any economist

they'll tell you, demand creates supply by the invisible hand of the market.

So if we all stand up and promise to pay 25 bucks a gallon, there will be lots of gasoline for everyone!

Read "The Long Emergency" if the above sentence doesn't make total sense to you. You will get a new perspective on where Murika is heading at 32feet per second per second.


Use that vision and pioneer spirit to find something that works like oil and doesn't spark global wars, or smother the planet.

Get back to me when you do.

We will all be waiting by the side of the road.

[ProfessorGAC]

77. Not All Of Us Say That

The analytic school insists on data and analysis not hypotheticals and fairy tales. So, you can't just ask ANY economist. You have to ask the "true believers".

The Professor

[Fovea]

80. Sorry

I agree.

I should have said, ask any economist who can get a spot on the news.

[ProfessorGAC]

83. So True

Gosh, i wish someone would ask me to do a newsspot. I've been on TV, but not since 1993! Bummer.
GAC

[DailyGrind51]

86. I've got 17 years on you and can assure you that this time IS different!

Even during Carter's "stagflation", those of us who had low (8 to 9%) mortgages purchased earlier were making 12 and 14% on our CDs and Money Market Funds. During the dot.com bust, our homes still could be sold for a great price. Today, however, you can't sell you home, unless you are willing to drop your asking price, put thousands of dollars into fixing it up, and throwing in a plasma screen TV! And, even then, it sits for a year! And, don't get me started on what happens when a major illness strikes!

[Chimichurri]

87. My first bank account gave me a 5% on my savings. You can't

even get that on a CD now. You're lucky if you find one for 4%.

[DailyGrind51]

116. That's right, and a lot of people really depend on interest to supplement

limited incomes, pensions, or social security.

[Deja Q]

103. 50/50 chance that it's always darkest before the storm too.

In time, we will see who is correct.

I'm hoping it's you, but others have said "this is no ordinary recession", and the factors in the global economy DO keep the Untied States at an unfair disadvantage right now - someone said the cost of living in India is $8000. The wages now offered for those jobs may be a pittance to us, but it's a goldmine to them.

That's not whining. That's reality.

Still, there are plenty of factors that can turn things around positively.

I will not discount your post, call you a freeper, or anything else.

One question: Would you invest right now?

[StClone]

12. Our Government died first

Lobbyists, privatization, Fascism, crooks, in-siders, Constitutional degradation have gutted our once great instution...we are going down and the Dem's in office offer no resistance.

[ladjf]

62. "Dem's in office offer no resistance" Will we ever be able to find

out why they offered no Resistance?

[mrreowwr_kittty]

15. But as I've learned recently, right here on DU

If you will just learn to discipline yourself and SAVE, you will be protected from the inevitable fall. If you will just INVEST WISELY, you'll be fine in your old age. Never mind the fact that wages are stagnant, and even falling in many sectors. Never mind the fact that RAPACIOUS FINANCIAL INSTITUTIONS are PREYING on you. Never mind the fact that costs of the basics have risen exponentially, while slick marketers spend $BILLIONS$ to brainwash you into believing you are a LOSER if you don't have the latest and greatest gizmos and fashions.

It's all YOUR fault because you didn't put your nose to the grindstone and work, work, work, yourself to death, while depriving yourself of any kind of enjoyment. Of course, consumer spending is 70% of our GDP, so you're an unpatriotic asshole for not spending to stimulate the economy.

Basically, you lose either way. But some people on this very board take great pleasure in tut-tutting over your misery.

I'm 39, and believe me, I REALLY understand what you're talking about. K and R.

[1]

17. the op is right. we should all just give up. i mean, what's the point?

that's what you meant, right?

there is no other way this can go, right? nothing we can do, right?

let me know if i am reading your post correctly. i think i am...

[NattPang]

21. I think that the op is saying,

or what I got out of it is
that we really only have
one hope at this point;
to vote for the man
who understands what
the op wrote.

[1]

24. wow. you got that from the op's post?

amazing.

so who exactly is this "man" who understands? the man that voted for the fisa immunity today?

is that the man who understands what the op was describing? really?

[mrreowwr_kittty]

34. I think he understands better than McCain does. nt

[1]

36. ah, ok. so when i vote in november, i will definitely look for "he" on my ballot...

definitely...

[mrreowwr_kittty]

40. Do what you want. I'm voting for Obama. nt

[ladjf]

63. The current situation is bad. But, giving up is always a bad move.

Bad things are not necessarily permanent. There are a lot of smart humans. Unfortunately, they aren't running the show. That doesn't mean that it will always be that way.

Fight on. Giving up is a form of suicide.

[leftofthedial]

38. and if you're over 45, no one will hire you due to age discrimination

unless you are already rich, you are already fucked.

[DailyGrind51]

85. Those over the age of 50 who retrained for a new field are finding

that employers aren't hiring older workers for entry level positions, for a variety of reasons.

[northernlights]

89. now you're scaring me

I'm over 50 and, after spending 4 1/2 out of the last 6 years unemployed, am training for medical lab technology. Everybody assures me that I will get work once I get through my training. But I'm afraid that even with a worldwide shortage of lab techs and virtually 100% employment rate, they'll still chase me away. Or that somehow the pay range for lab techs will have shrunk to minimum wage. I'll be 56 when finish my new training, and will have at least $20K in debt, although I do own my home outright.

I'm thinking either 1) take a bath on the house and pay off the debt, or 2) take on more debt and stay in school till I get my PhD. Maybe by then things will have worked themselves out?

[DailyGrind51]

118. If this is at all encouraging,

I've read that anything in the health-care field is secure and the need is growing. And, unlike medical transcriptions, they can't outsource lab work! Good luck!

[onetinsoldier]

124. your job search

apply for a va job or us govt they do not age discriminate

[Gregorian]

39. And then there's the environment.

Many of us saw this train wreck coming a long long time ago. But not many even see what's up ahead in terms of the planet.

I'll tell you what's scaring the hell out of me right now. I bought a timber ranch on the coast of California. Yesterday I had my forester make a visit. The trees are dying. The trees are dying. I'll spare the stories I've heard over the years from the old timers. I'll just say that some wise people predicted this. There appears to be less water in the air, and warmer temperatures on our coastlines. Things don't look good. And if the economy is important, water and all that comes with it is vitally important.

I thought of something this weekend while watching a friend ride her horse. We graduated from horses, to cars. And the reverse should be the logical step when things get ugly. I predict more horses in our future. How about that?

[Raksha]

54. The trees are dying? Do you mean the redwoods?

I know this is an off-topic digression, but I'm VERY concerned because I was in your part of the world just last week. I was in Mendocino Woodlands for a retreat, and everything looked the same as last year. The redwoods looked healthy to me...but then I'm no expert.

Sorry, I can't bring myself to say anything more. Northern California is heaven on earth, and the thought of the redwoods dying is too unbearable even to think about.

[Gregorian]

74. You might have seen me.

I rode my bike past a group in the Woodlands. That's my daily routine. I ride the forests on my bike. It's pretty cool. Mendocino is no longer heaven on earth. It's not Los Angeles, but unless you were here before the hoards with cars arrived, you don't know what you missed. I'm actually trying to decide whether to stay or not. I know, by most standards that sounds odd. I'm just so tired of running.

Yes the redwoods are dying. I didn't think much of it until my forester brought it up. She says we have overlogged the entire coast of the continent. These are all small trees now. Even the Woodlands. Those are not big trees. Even the 8 foot diameter ones. Young.

Sorry I don't have much good to say. I find myself going from place to place as they are ruined. I grew up in the Bay Area when it was unbelievably beautiful. Fields, orchards, dairy farms, odd insects, silence.

I'm now trying to learn how to not be angry. Not spend the rest of my life in anxiety. And by almost all standards, I've got it totally made.

[Fox Mulder]

41. "The American Dream" never existed except for a privileged few.

[aspergris]

48. Right.

All those neighborhoods across america with families owning their homes, a car, a decent living are just a "privileged" few.

Sure, if you define "few" as scores of millions.

[Fox Mulder]

50. There are scores of millions more who are poor...

in debt up to their eyeballs, have three mortgages on their house, can't afford to get to work, have no healthcare, can't afford college...

Yeah, the American Dream. :eyes:

[nomorenomore08]

52. Your point and his aren't mutually exclusive.

Everyone in this thread, whether optimist, pessimist, or "shoot-me-now," sees what they want to see. We all bend information to fit our personal view of the world - it's a universal human trait.

Personally, I have no idea what things are gonna be like a year, or 5 years, or 20 years from now. I just hope that when/if there's nothing left to live for, I'll have the balls to check the fuck out of here instead of starving with the rest.

[aspergris]

53. Except I look at the #'s

I also trade . So, I look at these #'s every day.

The economy is seriously messed up. But the idea that the american dream is over is laughable.

I am glad that the market has pulled back because it is not getting rational and reassessing value which was SORELY needed. We need corrections, and we need bear markets.

As for the housing market, it was Greater Fool theory 101. It HAD to pull back. Over the long term housing averages well UNDER 10% a year in appreciation. In some markets it was doing double that and more. Prices regress to a mean. They HAVE to. Bubbles pop

The one thing about trading is you can't bend the #'s to fit your world view because the market will hand you your #$(#$(.

The #'s are what they ARE, not what you think they should be.

[nomorenomore08]

55. Some people are doing fine. Others are struggling very, very hard right now.

I'm glad for you, that you haven't lost hope, and I haven't quite done so either. But Obama may well be the only chance to save us from another Great Depression - the Obama:McCain FDR:Hoover analogy is very apt.

[hfojvt]

57. "Don't you see what's happening here?

Potter isn't selling, he's buying. Why? Because we're panicking and he's not."

Of course, a large safe full of cash does tend to keep a person from panicking.

I hate to say it, but I think some of the OP is excessively pessimistic. Doom and gloom, and it has kinda been that way for decades. In 1984, Mondale was all pessimistic and Reagan was all gung ho and rah rah. The rah rah won big. Perhaps it is something that many people find out in their 30s, that the 'American Dream' is not just handed to them because they went to college. They've gotta fight for it just like every other rat in the rat race. It's hard work and stressful and risky, not the rose garden that we were sorta promised if we worked hard in school.

[Indenturedebtor]

78. I think that most of us find it out in our teens now

At least I started to when I started working and learned how one is treated, how expensive it is to live, and that everyone lives off of debt.

We'll need a complete paradigm shift to pull out of this one I'm afraid.

[aspergris]

94. that's a big part of the problem

Is that people often DO want to live BEYOND their means, and thus incur debt.

Some people get into debt through catastrophe, but there are a lot of people who get into debt because they want MORE than they can afford.

[Indenturedebtor]

96. Sure many people do live beyond their means

But many people simply struggle to afford housing and cars.

Housing and Cars used to be 25% of the average household income in 1970. Now they are 75%. But wages have remained the same in adjusted dollars. So just to get to work and have a place to sleep now puts people in debt.

Does the MSM talk about that little fact? No. They talk about how irresponsible some people are with their money. Give me a freakin break.

[aspergris]

108. I think they do a mediocre job

Of talking about both.

[conflictgirl]

126. Honestly I don't need a rose garden...I just want a full time job

It doesn't even matter if it only pays $25K a year for entry level and I have to work in that position for several years before moving up to a position with more responsibility or a higher pay. But I came out of college last year and literally cannot find a job that pays enough to cover my $400 a month in student loan payments, and I've been looking for such a job for over a year. When a college-educated person with experience in their field and good references is working for minimum wage in retail/food service, that's a sign that the American Dream is getting harder to obtain.

Me personally, I don't think the American Dream is over (at least in my rational moments - in my more cynical moments it does often feel like the "American Dream" was unsustainable on any kind of large societal scale and that's finally caught up with us). However, I do think that there are more forces working against the average person trying to achieve the American Dream than there were in the past few decades.

[Hardrada]

56. We buy with the dollars we have and not the dollars

we'd like to have.


(I thought I heard an echo of something familiar in your posts). I glad you got a nice hobby in your retirement, Don.

[aspergris]

131. exactly

The american dream is not "the American Guarantee".

It has ALWAYS been the case that many will not achieve the American Dream (tm).

Some never desire it in the first place, others choose not to work for it, and some fail due to external factors that are no fault of their own.

That's ALWAYS been true, and is not the contentious issue. The contentious issue is the erroneous claim that the American Dream is OVER. That's absurd, and the same chicken little'ism we have seen dozens of times in the past, the great depression being the most obvious example

[dysfunctional press]

59. why stop at 45...?

i'm 47 and understand it all too well.

[DailyGrind51]

60. If you're on the 60 side of 50, you understand it too!

My contemporaries are worried that, if they lose their jobs, will they find new ones? Who will insure them in the meantime, especially if COBRA runs out? Why bother retraining for new fields when no one is hiring 50+ year-olds for entry level jobs? How do you keep from going under?

[slackmaster]

67. I have felt the first little hints of age discrimination

I am lucky not to look my age. But by now I have enough background in what I do for a living that I should be able to keep doing it for another 10-12 years.

If that fails, Plan B is to become a musician.

[Truth4Justice]

88. You hope you get lucky and have a massive coranay attack. No one cares anyhow.

[DailyGrind51]

141. Only if the coronary kills you.

[Blue_Tires]

65. very true

ttt

[slackmaster]

66. There is much truth in what you are saying, Writer, but it has happened before and it's not the end

And if you're between the ages of 30 and 45 you likely REALLY understand what I'm talking about.

Yes, but many people around my age (50) and over benefited from the last boom cycle enough to prepare our selves for the present bust. We've already been members of the working class during the inflationary, high-interest early '80s and the financial meltdown of the early '90s. There have been ups in the midst of the downs. It's easy to become punchdrunk from the downs and not be able to recognize the good times.

There is always opportunity in every recession. The key to surviving is to recognize and embrace a way out. You may have to put your dream of home ownership on hold for several years (I was never able to buy until I was almost 37). Once you do buy, you may have to put up with high interest rates for a few years, but an opportunity to refinance will come your way if you maintain creditworthiness and can find relatively stable income. The worst mistake you can make is paying way too much for a home to live in. You are better off renting until the market cools off, no matter how painful that may be. (My last landlord was a total dick.)

On energy prices, something has to give sooner or later. There is a speculative bubble in play now. That will burst, and innovations are bound to result in reduced dependency on oil.

Please be patient, and in the meantime take sensible steps to conserve.

- the catch-22 of a college education - getting into debt but not earning enough to pay it off quickly

Here is the one point on which you and I are not of the same mind. Nobody ever promised me that a college education would guarantee a good income. I think my mom tried to warn me about that delusion. Unless you are on a path to a specific profession with predictable employment opportunity (which most undergraduates are definitely not), the purpose of an education is to teach you how to communicate well and think critically. Don't count on your major to provide a cash cow unless you happened to choose wisely. Use those communication and thinking skills to best effect, and don't hold on to a career dream that may have made sense at one time but now does not.

When I finished my BA in 1980 I had no idea what I would be doing today. Or to put it more honestly, where I thought I was going turned out to be a very bad guess based on naive assumptions about myself - I failed to recognize my inability to tolerate certain things in human behavior including stupidity and whininess, and some things I could never have predicted like the microcomputer revolution. I really thought I was a "people person". I do get along well with a subset of people who happen to be bright and emotionally stable, but I am really more of a machine person.

[Phoebe Loosinhouse]

68. But what you or your parents paid for college in 1980 is nothing compared to today

Today's graduates have onerous college debt that buries them before they start. Then add car payments, insurance, shelter, food, etc. I feel so bad for today's grads. Making it even worse is that many of them got unbelievably crappy student loans recommended by their schools' financial aid offices without knowing that there were better, cheaper loans available to them. Who knew that your college's financial aid office would turn out to be just as trustworthy as the local loan shark?

[slackmaster]

69. Yes, college was heavily subsidized in California when I was attending

My timing was fortunate in that regard. The UC system had reached a crescendo of academic excellence, and resident fees were a tiny fraction of what they are today. Our superb education system had a dark side. It was being paid for largely by literally taxing people out of house and home, which led to the Proposition 13 backlash and all kinds of other things that are both good and bad.

Making it even worse is that many of them got unbelievably crappy student loans recommended by their schools' financial aid offices without knowing that there were better, cheaper loans available to them.

People always get burned on their first loans, and our public high schools have never done a decent job of teaching personal finanace.

When I was in college, costs were low enough that I could actually work my way through while burning up some savings from my adolescence. I never had to borrow a cent from anyone or have my parents pay for anything once I left the home, until I bought a car. Now, an education costs so much that the cost/benefit may not be there for a lot of people.

One thing I have noticed about the present generation compared to mine is a disturbingly strong need to have everything now. People are trying to grow up too fast. I see teenagers who are truly embarrassed if their parents drop them off at school in a crappy car. I've seen a family break up because the mom was more concerned with getting crown molding and hardwood floors in her house than she was with properly raising her children, while dad worked ridiculously long hours to keep up with the house payments. Other than the filthy rich, nobody in my peer group cared about things like that. Unrealistic depictions of "real life" on TV is poisoning peoples' minds a lot more now than when The Beverly Hillbillies and Gilligan's Island were new.

[MedleyMisty]

79. My dreams aren't about material crap

As long as I have food, clothing, shelter, books, and a decent gaming computer with a net connection, I'm good. And although we have some debt, it's not a whole lot and we're about to close on our dream house - which is not some huge McMansion but a modest two bedroom one bath one floor house that we're paying $79,000 for. And the highest degree we have between us is my utterly useless associate's degree - my husband went to nursing school but got burned out and went to work at the library instead. And we're happy and have a good life.

There is so much more meaning to life than owning material crap that destroys the lives of others. How many people have suffered unimaginably and died because "the American lifestyle is not negotiable."?

There's love. There's compassion. There's helping other people and true justice and equality for all. That has so much more meaning than random material crap that's soaked in blood.

And yes, I realize that my computer probably drew some blood on its way to me. Probably my clothes too - I imagine my wardrobe is not utterly free of the stains of sweatshops. And I also imagine that some of my food is made in ways that harm the environment and/or living beings.

I take responsibility for that, and hope to learn and inform myself and make better choices in the future. I also realize that our whole society is toxic and that it's impossible to live in it without getting a little of the blood stain on your own hands, and I want to work to change that.

I don't think there's ever been any sense in building your life's meaning around material objects.

[Imagevision]

97. sleebarker -> very well put...

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

82. It always was a "dream". One induced by greed.

[Throd]

90. No it isn't.

I don't know what my future holds. But with your attitude, your outcome is guaranteed.

I am 41 years old.

[aspergris]

99. Yup...

It's been said people tend to create their own reality.

[depakid]

91. Get sick- go bankrupt

No matter who's elected president, this won't change.

[kineneb]

104. been there...

paying for groceries now with a food stamp debit card is just soooo much fun

[Writer]

92. Well, if it substantiates my OP a bit more, my husband just got laid off this morning.

The second time in 18 months.

Soooo..... hello, American Dream! :sarcasm:

[hunter]

93. Mother Nature bats last. Exponential growth always ends.

The bleeding always stops.

I don't think you even have to look at the politics or economics of the situation. Nature doesn't pay any attention to people's reasons and rationalizations for human behavior. That stuff exists only in our heads, and may or may not be a good model of reality.

The human race is going to hit the very same wall, the very same limits to growth, that a summer bloom of pond scum does.

In our own family we got to the point of receding expectations a little quicker than most, thanks to the marvelous U.S. health care system. We've been living paycheck to paycheck for years now because of chronic medical conditions. I don't give a damn about credit ratings or savings or investments or anything like that because I can't. The number of financially alienated Americans like me is increasing.

[kineneb]

105. must say: it is only a "dream" not a reality

My grandparents were better off than I will ever be. In fact, I am now back to the level of my great grandparents- poverty and subsistence farming (gardening, for me).

[Political Heretic]

106. I'm living well.... because I went bankrupt and then lowered my expectations :P

So yeah... now I'm happy with my one room apartment, eight year old car, and twin bed. :)

[Joe Holmes]

113. I disagree.

I believe in the American Dream. I didn't live beyond my means, stayed out of debt, and was frugal and disciplined my whole life with money. When all my friends were going out to nice dinners and buying $40,000 cars, I stayed home, ate Spam, and drove a Honda. When my friends took expensive vacations to Hawaii or the Bahamas, we went camping in the mountains for a week or two. Tents are a lot cheaper than hotels. I never went to college, but worked 40 plus hours my whole life, worked 2 jobs for 10 years. I own a home in the states (almost paid for) and an apartment in the EU, where my wife is from. I'm 47 and will retire in 3 years, at 50. I'm not rich and I never will be- but we'll be comfortable. The kids can go to college, not Harvard or USC but decent state universities.

I'm not "lucky". I just worked my ass off, and so did my wife, and we invested wisely and didn't fall for any "get rich quick" schemes. I'm not even very smart! I just paid attention to what my parents told me about hard work and saving for the future. And honestly, it wasn't that difficult.

[Writer]

114. Joe, that's a good story, but I have to ask:

1) How many times were you laid off during your working years?

2) Did your wages keep up with inflation?

3) Do you have a pension?

4) You said that you didn't go to college; do you think your children can still find decent-paying work even if they didn't go to college?

5) Were you ever forced to move because of a job relocation or in order to be closer to a better job market? If so, how often?

[Joe Holmes]

120. Answer:

1. I was laid off once, for 6 months.

2. My work ethic kept up with inflation, 18 hours a day for a decade plus 45 to 55 hours a week now.

3. I have an "anuity" which I can't collect until I'm 60.

4. The girls are going to college- no ifs, ands or buts about it!

5. I spent 8 years in the military, and you could say they "relocated" me on several different occasions.


A very wise man told me when I was kid that if you worked 6 days a week, for 20 years, and saved everything you made on the 6th day, never touched it, you'd be a millionaire in 20 years. Guess what? It worked. ( But it took me 30 years, not 20. )

[hunter]

127. So Joe, how much of your "success" is just dumb luck?

For everyone who's had a strong work ethic and been successful, there are dozens of people who had an even stronger work ethic but got thrown under the wheels of the bus anyways...

Let's suppose that those "6th day" savings of yours were wiped out every couple of years by chronic health problems that were the result of some accident that could have happened to anyone...

Or what if you'd been born in some bad neighborhood of Africa?

What if you were an undocumented worker in a midwestern meat plant who was sending money home to family who would otherwise go hungry?

What if you were schizophrenic?

Bummer, eh?

And God Forbid you get some life threatening illness just as you are contemplating your well deserved retirement and you start to think, "Oh man, why did I waste all my youth... working?"

Ah well, I hope you've got a job you like, Joe. I figure my own paper wealth is about as sound as the dollar, so maybe when I'm seventy I'll be able to cash it all in and buy you a beer.

[Joe Holmes]

129. Bad shit happens, thats true.

You can't insulate yourself from the real world. I've had cancer twice, I guess thats bad shit, but we got through it OK. I never enjoyed working 2 jobs, but I was just smart enough to know that sacrificing now to make a better future for my family was probably a good idea. Most of the people that post here aren't from poor neighborhoods in Africa, and they're not illegal aliens either. The OP was talking about the American Dream, whats happens elsewhere is a different story for a different post. I guess I have "dumb luck" because I havent died yet. Sorry you're not doing well. Don't blame me.

My older brother has the exact same opinion as the OP. He's 58, has a degree from a great college, and has been bankrupt twice. He bought a million dollar house he could'nt afford, sent his kid to expensive private schools, always drove a Mercedes, took vacations in Paris. Big old swimming pool as well. He has nothing saved for retirement.I don't know what he's going to do. But I'll tell you this- he made a ton of money in his life, but he spent a ton and a half. I made half a ton of money, but only spent a quarter ton. Guess his college education didn't teach him much common sense.

[lastliberalintexas]

133. Not to get too personal, but since you posted about your cancer

I have to ask how you paid for your treatment? You say you were in the military, so did you have VA benefits? Good insurance?

I really am not trying to be snarky, it's just that I personally know 1 person who has had cancer and basically is now bankrupt without actually filing for bankruptcy and must always stay that way in order to qualify for Medicaid. I also know of an individual who was uninsured when diagnosed, local docs did what they could, he and his family still lost their house since he couldn't work and he died anyway. Of course, with the best available treatment he still might have died, we don't have any guarantees in this life. But since studies also show that in our current for profit healthcare system the poor die at higher rates, it is at least possible that he could have survived with real, substantive treatment.

When medical costs precipitate about 2/3rds of the personal bankruptcies filed in the US, we have a problem.

[ChimpersMcSmirkers]

121. You Whiner! Just think positive thoughts and you'll be ok...

:sarcasm:

[Kip Humphrey]

122. Aw yes, the middle-class crack that is the consumerist American Nightmare kind of Dream.

[NeedleCast]

123. End Is Near

Repent!

Internet has moved the doom-and-gloom, end is near nutters from the street-corners to the internet. Frankly, they were more entertaining on street corners.

[Phoebe Loosinhouse]

128. When American Dream comes up, I never tire of telling my in-laws story

They were part of the "Greatest Generation". My father-in-law was a second generation American whose parents were Finnish. My mother-in-law was third generation Italian American. They met in 4th grade because their mothers were friends in the same tenement block.

Neither of them completed high school. They got engaged right at the beginning of WWII and my father-in-law served in the Army where he learned a valuable trade. After five years of separation, they were finally married. My FIL got a blue collar job which he stayed at for over 30 years where he earned a decent wage and had profit sharing and great benefits. My MIL stayed home with the kids (and one set of elderly parents) for about 12 years until both elderly parents died and then got herself a blue-collar assembly-type job which she kept for about 20 years - fairly crappy pay, no benefits or pension but she loved the folks she worked with who pretty much were like a work family.

Now, here's what they accomplished:
They had a lovely small bungalow type house with a picket fence and great neighbors that they lived in for 30 years and paid off.

They were able to purchase a great little vacation home in a seaside community for summers and weekends which they enlarged over time and ultimately retired to after selling their initial home.

They bought a new car about every six years that they paid cash for

They put both kids through college, one private college, one State U

They had lifelong friendships and their house was always a gathering place for everyone with my MIL plying everyone with Italian food and my FIL being wine steward and cocktail mixmaster

They generously gave to both kids and grand kids because they PREFERRED to do that rather than spend money on themselves ( even though the kids where always saying - hey! spend it on yourselves - take a trip, buy something!

They had a happy and comfortable retirement because they always lived within their means and saved throughout their life(they did not have a credit card until they were in their 70's and then only got one because we thought it was safer for them than cash and they paid it off every month). They left a shocking amount of cash and stocks to their heirs when you consider their modest backgrounds.

Now, is their story possible today? Could 2 hard-working, wonderful, minimally educated people fund 2 houses, college educations, and a comfortable retirement? I think not. They had stable lifelong employment, relatively ok income, and great healthcare benefits even in retirement.

They also LIVED WITHIN THEIR MEANS and saving was their lifestyle. I think that is part of the mind set of The Greatest Generation - they lived through the Depression, fought a massive war, and knew the value of a buck and took nothing for granted. They had a Modesty and Humbleness that I just find lacking today.

People today expect to live beyond their means and will fund their lifestyle with credit cards and evaporating equity in order to achieve their expectations. They will "eat their houses" for a plasma TV. They will go on expensive cruises because they "deserve it" even if they can't afford it. If you watch one of the HGTV shows about young couples buying first houses, their expectations are enormous. They sniff if the countertops aren't granite and the husband "needs" a "mancave" for the TV set. They would find my in-laws bungalow unacceptable except perhaps for the au pair.

I really don't care how people live or what they choose to buy - that's their choice. But today we cannot count on the things that made the America Dream possible previously for my in-laws. High paying manufacturing jobs have been replaced with low paying service jobs. Healthcare is unaffordable and eats up paychecks. Houses are priced into the stratosphere as a percentage of income. Tuition is unaffordable period or places a crippling debt burden on the student. People are unable to pay daily expenses, let alone save. Many of the Boomers can look forward to an extremely constrained retirement without the benefit of pensions or savings in addition to Social Security. One serious major illness can wipe out ANYBODY - I don't care how well-off you are - remember, even Super Man could not afford his health costs without the generosity of wealthy friends.

So, yes, I do think that in many ways, a dream that was possible once is beyond our grasp now.

(Sorry about the length - I got a little carried away)

[Javaman]

139. let me clue you into something, there never ever was an "american dream"...

I wrote this a while back...

Javaman (1000+ posts) Fri Nov-17-06 05:09 PM
Response to Original message
110. We are called consumers for a reason...

since post WWII a whole new breed of ad exec was born.

We are all told to strive for the "american dream".

There never was such a thing.

Once upon a time, the dream to live for in this country was to live free.

Now we are told to buy everything we can get our hands on in hopes that one day before we go on a killing spree that we attain that "american dream" of owning more and more stuff. (that is before we realize that material posessions really don't give you any real happiness)

And just like moron* said, "See in my line of work you got to keep repeating things over and over and over again for the truth to sink in, to kind of catapult the propaganda."

And that my friends is what we as a nation have been feeding on these last 60 years.

Buy why, you ask? At the close of WWII, it was noticed by the U.S. Government, the republican red scare nut jobs and money grubbing capitalists, that there was a lot of money to be made on fear.

So after years of war and depression, people were ripe for a new world and a life of ease... or at least that's what we were told.

So for the next umpteen years (decades), it was pounded into us as part of the cold war brainwashing our government did to us. "Strive for the American dream! We are better than the soviets! we consume more because we make more!" (viscous circular logic)

After the cold war ended there was a very brief period of time (like about 3 hours) where the american public actually said, "Hey, why do I have to buy this crap? The soviets are old news..." but then in steps bush the first to scare the crap out of us by invading saddam (the evil mean guy du jour), thus giving us someone new to hate and materialistically out do.

So here we are, wondering again, why do we buy shit we don't need. In a nut shell, to make other people rich and us perpetually broke and/or deeply in debt.

There is the 50 cent answer.

Now stop buying crap you think you need!!!

Sigh

and this...

Javaman (1000+ posts) Thu Aug-31-06 04:55 PM
Response to Original message
4. Here's a newsflash: there never was an American dream.
It's just bullshit that was fed to the U.S. public after WWII to help prop up the economy in contrast to the soviet way of life.

The American dream by any definition is unattainable. It's nothing but propaganda bullshit.

If you take away that concept what do you have? A society that has to function, live and work, just like any other society, but if you put a fancy label on it with an impossible ad promotion, it suddenly becomes the American dream.

Here's the real American dream. Affordable healthcare, affordable meds, solid programs for the poor, education for everyone, living wages, the ability to feed ones family, and lastly but certainly not least: Peace.

[Tight_rope]

140. I'VE ALWAYS SAID THAT THE TRUE AMERICAN DREAM IS TO BE IN 'DEBT'!

NOW I HAVE BEEN PROVEN ABSOLUTELY RIGHT.

[Imagevision]

143. Even with a Dem President installed, does anyone think 09 is going to be better then 08?

Bush did precisely what he was hired to do, he returned more power and wealth to his base, it'll take at least 8 years to turn Bush's antic's around (somewhat). But isn't this what usually happens in the US of A? It's like a cycle.

[nomorenomore08]

144. Probably not, but with Obama in office, things might start to look up in '10 and afterward.

McCain, on the other hand, offers us no such hope. With him we could well be looking at $6 gas and 10% unemployment.

[Initech]

145. I really hate the fact that big business interests outweigh the populace's interests.