FISA - The End of the World as We Know It?

[Political Tiger]

Trying to keep it all in perspective, here's a few things FISA will have no effect on:

The Economy

Jobs

Outsourcing

Poverty

Mortgage Crisis

Gas Prices

Dependence on Oil

ANWR

Energy Conversation

The Environment

Climate Change

Health Care

Stem Cell Research

Abortion Rights

Retirement Benefits

Social Security

Taxes

Trade/NAFTA

Worker's Rights

Immigration

The Budget

Education

The Supreme Court

Veteran's Issues

Iraq

Iran

Afghanistan

[EbenezerMcIntosh]

1. I guess it is kind of the straw that breaks the camel's back.

I'm sick of this evil neocon dominance of our government.

We the SHEEPLE!

[midnight]

2. I wish it were true, but after living with the nonsense of the

past seven years I know differently.

[OnyxCollie]

3. Wrong.

Being able to spy on enemies and adversaries without consequence allows for blackmail, insider trading, etc. and makes all the things you listed possible.

Connect the dots.

[Political Tiger]

6. Really?

So "being able to spy on enemies and adversaries without consequence" has an effect on...say...the 40+ million people with no health care? I don't see the connection.

[OnyxCollie]

7. Go back to sleep. Everything is fine. nt

[TheWatcher]

10. You are assuming he was ever awake.

[Political Tiger]

12. What's with the personal attacks?

I've never understood message board bullies. Do you really need to insult total strangers on a message board in order to boost your self-esteem? And do you really think people don't notice that your attacks are in lieu of a coherent response to the issue at hand?

Instead of wasting time making personal attacks, why not just say "I dunno" and move on to your next target? It's the same thing and saves time.

[Faux pas]

14. I don't understand the bullying tactics around here myself, and

I've been here awhile. As time goes on, you'll get to know the ones you really don't want to know and you can just skip over their BS.

Welcome to DU anyway, k? :)

[Political Tiger]

15. Thank you!

Glad to be here!

[Faux pas]

32. Glad you're here too. Give 'em hell ObamaVision!

[TheWatcher]

39. I don't really consider that a personal attack.

Merely an observation.

Personally, from what I have seen of your posts, you are a decent person, someone who beleive it or not I would agree on a good many things.

But like too many Americans, you are blind to what this issue means.

It doesn't make you a bad person.

[TexasObserver]

47. Shrug it off. Sadly, it's fairly typical.

Most of those who disagree with you will insult you, call you names, and generally treat you like shit. You can hit the Alert button on the lower left of their post and report it to the mods and admins when they insult you. There are specific rules against such attacks, but mods don't look if you don't Alert.

If you don't want to do that, simply use the red X on the top left of the offending poster's post, and you can put them on IGNORE. This will allow you not to see any post by that person.

Good luck. You'll need it, since, as you've learned, those who sling nasty comments at you are many and are repeat offenders.

[Political Tiger]

49. Good advice!

I see that ignore button is gonna come in handy! B-)

[HughMoran]

19. Stupid post of the day award

GO back to be yourself joker.

[Political Tiger]

27. Thanks for your kind words.....

...nice to see so many people keeping an open mind.....

:sarcasm:

[TheWatcher]

38. Go Back To Your Superior Indifference and The Comforting Wilful Ignorance

of your Matrix Hugh.

And revel in the delusion that I actually care what you think about me personally. I'm sure I'll lose a full night's sleep over it.

And in the even bigger delusion or your perception of my grip and understanding of what is happening in our country.

:hi:

[HughMoran]

40. Well, I certainly don't care what you think - troublemaker

I've got no use for dull-blades like you

[TheWatcher]

42. And I have no use for tiresome, magical thinking lambs like you.

Now let's kiss and make-up.

It's FRIDAY!

[HughMoran]

43. Why, I oughta cut your nuts off!!

:rofl:

[TheWatcher]

46. That's The Spirit!

Ah, Go Peddle Ya Papers......

:rofl:

[TheWatcher]

9. Of course you don't.

Your perception would fit right in over in Germany......

About 74 years ago.

Sleep, little lamb.

SLEEP.

All is well in Pleasantville.

[Breeze54]

17. Read slow... C.O.N.G.R.E.S.S

:eyes:

[JeffR]

4. And I feel fine n/t

[Fox Mulder]

5. That's great...

it starts with a earthquake,
birds and snakes, an aeroplane,
and Lenny Bruce is not afraid.

[pnorman]

8. With NO sarcasm intended,

we've been witnessing the step by step "end of American democracy", all through the past eight years! So are we going to posture our "uncorrupted principles" (and possibly make it a self-fulfilling prophesy),
OR
Will we cut Obama enough slack to get through the political minefield of the American political process? There IS a dime's worth of difference between him WINNING (with "grease marks on his collar"), and LOSING (with "honor").

pnorman
On edit: I'm a "Left Libertarian", which is essentially an anarchist (as opposed to "bolshevik"). Here's what I recently emailed (tongue in cheek) to friend who's an avowed anarchist:
"PS: I do hope that the Central Committee of the Anarchist Party doesn't expel me as a counter-revolutionary, but I've recently become a (qualified) supporter of Obama!"
Here's his reply: "Well, the Central Committee may disagree but I'm voting for him too."

[Swamp Rat]

11. Add FISA to that list.

No need to separate it.

[Breeze54]

18. That graphic is just awesome! You've out done yourself!!

:thumbsup: :thumbsup:

:kick: & Recommended (wish i could)

[AndyTiedye]

13. The FISA Cave-In Could Affect *ALL* Of Those Issues!

because the Repiglickin' blackmail machine remains intact, so the Democrats will be forced to CAVE on all those issues!

[mmonk]

16. Why do you feel the need to defend the unconscionable

act Congress did? My perspective is just fine thank you very much.

[Political Tiger]

25. Why do you feel the need to take my post so personally?

People wagging their fingers at everyone, stomping their feet and holding their breath until they turned blue never solved anything. At least that's been my experience.

[mmonk]

37. The appearance of dismissal of a real and grave concern.

BTW, I'm an Obama delegate in NC.

[SidneyCarton]

51. Welcome to DU ObamaVision!

You've hit the raw nerve du jour of our forum. Don't take this mess personally, the melodrama on this issue has become dangerously thick. The narrative of the past few days is that the Republic is dead and we're all just sitting here at our keyboards waiting for the sound of jackboots echoing on our porch, speaking of which is that the door... oh no!

Oops, only the mail man.

Carry on.

:tinfoilhat:

[Political Tiger]

57. Thank you for the encouragement!

I do seem to have hit a raw nerve, which wasn't my intention, but...what the hell....que sera sera as they say! lol

[readmoreoften]

20. Wait. The government's ability to spy and Bush not being held accountable effects none of that?

It will directly effect the majority of issues on that list. If it didn't effect that list, FISA wouldn't be an issue even for congress. FISA doesn't effect the wars in Iraq, Iran, and Afghanistan? Are you dense?

[Political Tiger]

22. I didn't know we were at war with Iran

FISA doesn't effect the wars in Iraq, Iran, and Afghanistan? Are you dense?

I guess I'm too dense........

[Fumesucker]

24. The war with Iran is cold right now..

But there's an excellent chance that it will heat up in the near future.

[Political Tiger]

26. Especially if McCain becomes president. n/t

[readmoreoften]

28. Yeah, well, give it a few months and let's see. But is that your only response?

That we're not at war "yet" with Iran? Even though they've been planning this for 8 years (or longer) and declaring the Revolutionary Guard a terrorist organization was, really, the first step?

So failing to obtain information on the illegal spying the Bush Administration conducted on American citizens--and stopping the US government (including black ops) from vacuum spying on Americans in the future will effect nothing? No effect whatsoever. Can't make that connection, huh? Too abstract. Why ever would we desire for the US government to refrain from tapping all our conversations? What possible effects could it have?

Goodness, we should've done it sooner then.

[Political Tiger]

31. Did I say I support FISA?

Why all the hostility here? Is this a board to discuss Democratic issues or a board dedicated to insulting others? Maybe my response would be more thorough if everyone didn't start out by hurling insults. I mean, why the hell should I bother trying to explain how I feel when people have already decided I'm too stupid to "make that connection" because it's "too abstract" for dumb little me?

My only point with my original post was that the world did not end just because the FISA bill passed. I wasn't praising FISA or defending it!

This FISA crap is a catch-22 for Obama. If he voted exactly the way some demand then the GOP would have yet another avenue of attack for him...they would spin it into him being weak on terrorism, that he was weak on the "war on terror." That he's more concerned about protecting the rights of terrorists than keeping Americans safe. It's a bunch of baloney but people fall for it.

It's unfortunate but most Americans are easily fooled, that's why the Republicans are so eager to play the fear card. The Bush administration has done a masterful job of scaring the hell out the average American who is not up to date on every minutia of the FISA bill and frankly don't care if the telecoms get immunity if they believe it is going to be keep them safe. It's unfortunate but it's the reality.

Your average American voters are not political junkies like many of us are. They don't read newspapers or blogs or watch news channels with as much interest and intensity as most of us do. Why do you think Bush and Cheney have been able to get away with everything they have in the past seven and a half years?

Just look how McCain and Hillary were able to distort Obama's "bitter" comments! Look at how they have been and will be distorting the 30 seconds of selected comments from Reverend Wright to portray him and Obama as "racist" and "America haters." Hell, there's still a significant amount of people in this country who still think Obama is a Muslim, or for that matter, there's still millions of Americans who still think Saddam Hussein had something to do with 9/11!

I doubt if most Americans can name five of the signers of the Constitution. I doubt if most Americans can correctly site the correct wording of the First Amendment.

A recent study showed that even today, 7 out of 10 Americans could not locate Iraq on a map!

This FISA bill would have passed no matter which way Obama voted. Laying it all on his shoulders is unfair. Right now he is running for the office of president, it's not the primaries anymore. If he wants to win, he must make certain tactical decisions. He must appeal to those in the center and those to the right of center.

I don't know why some are making this one single issue the litmus test for Obama. I prefer to look at the whole picture, not just zero in on one issue.

I don't like this FISA bill either but the truth of the matter is that it was going to pass no matter what Obama did and he was going to receive criticism no matter what he did.

[Krashkopf]

21. You're Right . . . Constitutional Rights . . . WHO FUCKIN' NEEDS 'EM?

[Political Tiger]

23. People seemed to have missed the point on my post

Why bother to take a moment to take a deep breath, look around and see the whole picture when it might interrupt the bitch fest so many seem stuck in?

[readmoreoften]

29. Dude what the fuck is up with that creepy photo? It looks like a Viagra commercial

or a poster for sexual health. Who's distributing that? Fox News? It's bizarre.

[Political Tiger]

30. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder

Where some see beauty others see porn....go figure. :silly:

[readmoreoften]

33. Yeah, it's not porn. It's just odd.

[Breeze54]

34. YES IT DOES!!

:rofl:

[Runcible Spoon]

66. ...

:rofl: :spray:

[Krashkopf]

50. No . . . I got your point.

You clearly think the price of gas . . . or various other issues . . . are more important than preserving and protecting the Constitution.

You are just like the people who put up with Mussolini, who said . . . "Yes, he is a dictator, but at least he'll make the trains run on time."

I STRONGLY disagree with your skewed - UNAMERICAN - priorities.

[SidneyCarton]

52. If I may...

Since everyone would like to invoke Germany today, let us remember something. Hitler came to power in the midst of a massive depression. The middle class in Germany had been wiped out, chaos reigned, in the form of crime, political violence and warring party paramilitaries. There was no work, everyone was broke, and the people were in general hopeless. Under such circumstances, when people are staring into the abyss of their own ruin, they tend to think more of their bellies and their children's bellies than on their civil liberties, particularly when they find that such liberties neither fill the gas tank, nor ease their hunger.

These are the stakes, democracy is fragile. It requires a stable middle class and a secure populace in order to flourish. Without these, people tend to sell their liberties cheaply to whatever monster will feed them. This isn't 1933, its 1929, if we don't do something soon though, we will have a Fuhrer indeed.

[Krashkopf]

54. You are quite right, of course.

[Political Tiger]

56. Oh please!

I've already explained several times what I think...if you bothered to read through instead of playing mind reader maybe you would have saved yourself a little embarrassment.

And you sure you're not a Republican? It's usually Republicans who play the patriot card and accuse others of being "UNAMERICAN," and your Mussolini analogy is eerily reminiscent of Bush's little "appeasement" speech last month.

[Krashkopf]

58. Oh, please, yourself . . .

You are the one who is putting his allegiance to a politician above his allegiance to the Constitution . . . and I am the one who is sounding like a Republican!!!???

[Political Tiger]

60. Have we met before?

How is it that you think you know me so well that you can read my mind?

[Krashkopf]

61. The inability to see yourself as others see you . . .

is another republican/republican-lite trait.

[Political Tiger]

63. Ummmm, hate to tell you this, but....

...this is only a message board and before you decide you know everything there is to know about somebody maybe you should get to know them a little better instead of making rash judgements based solely on a few posts made on a message board!

[Krashkopf]

64. I hate to tell YOU this, but . . .

this BEING a message board, the ONLY way for others to judge us is by the content, and quality, of our posts.

Your original post was as "wrong-headed" as it was passionate. In it you rationalize a terrible, cowardly, vote that did serious harm to one of our a fundemental Constitutional Rights in the name of avoiding potential losses on a list of mere political considerations.

I think my comparison of your position to the Italians who were willing to put up with Fascism so long as Mussolini made the trains run on time was particularly apt.

[MiniMe]

35. I don't have a lot of problems with spying on FOREIGN communications

However, this administration is using FISA to spy on Americans. I have a big problem with that. I wish congress would be very specific about that.

[burythehatchet]

36. Probably one of the most idiotic posts I have ever read on DU.

[ThomWV]

41. Not one item on your list is a Constitutional issue, FISA is. Can't you see the difference?

[TexasObserver]

44. You're correct, of course

We're not done yet on FISA and all the issues to which it relates. We cannot change anything until we take the presidency.

[Political Tiger]

48. That's the point of my post!

All I was trying to say was that there are a lot of issues that effect us....there was so much uproar over FISA I just thought I'd add my 2 cents and try to remind people that there are many issues that need to be tackled and as Democrats I would think we would want a Democratic president tackling those issues, especially after 8 long years of Bush.

Whether it be FISA or health care or the economy....I'd rather have Barack Obama at the helm and not John McCain. We don't have to agree 100% with our candidate to be supportive, IMO.

[Krashkopf]

53. You are hanging on a very thin reed.

You are assuming 1) that Obama is going to flip-flop back again, after the election; and 2) that "the Gutless wonders" in the Senate are going to vote against their big money supporters in the telecom industry.

It is much easier to STOP bad legislation than it is to repeal it after the fact.

Finally, I don't think Obama would have lost ANY support if he had lived up to "the courage of his convictions." To the contrary, I think America would have rallied around him for being such a STRONG LEADER.

[Political Tiger]

62. You are reading way too much into my post.

I wasn't trying to make some grand statement, I wasn't defending FISA, or Obama's vote...I was just responding to what I see as a bit of an overreaction to the issue...and that does NOT mean I don't think this is an important issue or that I don't the the Constitution should be protected or that I have some "blind allegiance" to a candidate.

Maybe I should add a disclaimer to the original post but at this point I'm getting the feeling some people would just rather toss out insults than listen.

[MyNameGoesHere]

45. Here are a few things FISA could affect

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

So if we can ignore one of the original Bill of Rights lets just get rid of em all. They are less important than all that shit you listed. Right?

I submit to you that ALL of that shit you listed is less important than maintaining and upholding the constitution that has until now survived and worked for over 200 years. What the fucking hell is with all the enablers? Why do you insist in giving away something so dear to further the political ambitions of 1 man? Is it worth it?

EVERYONE of those who voted for the bill should be kicked out of office or not allowed to serve because clearly they do not swear to uphold and defend the constitution. EVERYONE of them!

[DearAbby]

55. We don't need the fourth amendment...

wasn't using it anyway. :shrug:

Constitution is just a piece of paper, thanks for the perspective update!

:sarcasm: for the impaired.

[Political Tiger]

59. The sky is falling! The sky is falling!

Lighten up people! I never said or implied that the Constitution should be tossed in the dust bin. Somehow we have survived as a nation despite threats to the Constitution from the Alien and Sedition Acts to the Palmer Raids to the internment of Japanese Americans to McCarthy to Nixon to eight years of Bush/Cheney...

We will survive this, too.

[Krashkopf]

65. Don't piss on my head and then tell me its raining.

We will only survive this if we are willing to stand up and fight against it.

The Democratic-lead Senate (including the Democratic Presidential Nominee), and the Democratic-lead House, just passed a law that retroactively legalized the Constitutional abuses of the past 8 years.

I've got news for you, Pollyanna. The sky REALLY IS falling . . . and I know that because a big piece of it just landed on the 4th Amendment.