Why I don't give two S***s about FISA

[rg302200]

So I got your attention with the headline right? I figured I had to say that to get people to read my post, of course I care about FISA but its not a deal breaker with me. I understand why Obama voted for it, he voted for it so that we could focus on the issues that really need fixed first. See here in S.E. Ohio people just don't care about FISA...no we worry about other things. Because see FISA won't bring back the manufacturing jobs that have been lost in my country in just the past 6 months alone (1,000 and climbing) in a county with a population of 40,000.

FISA won't bring my two cousins back from Iraq....

FISA won't bring us universal healthcare....

FISA won't help to ease the housing market crisis that is destroying the economy....

FISA will do nothing to decrease the price of gas when I have to drive 70 miles one way for my job...

FISA has no provision to stop global warming....

FISA? What is FISA to me? So the government wants to listen to my phone calls? Go right ahead, and if I get thrown in jail for calling Bush a F*****g B*****d well at least I will have three squares a day. Which is good because I am lucky to get 2 squares now as it is.

FISA?? It's just another reason to divide the democrats and the republicans knew that. Obama was damned if he did and damned if he didn't. But I will take Obama any day and support him with every ounce I can afford until he is sitting in the White House.

FISA? means nothing to me......

[elocs]

1. But, but, but the Fourth Amendment as been destroyed. The Constitution is...finished.

How can you not care about what has caused the fall of our Republic?

[rg302200]

4. One single event, even as small as FISA

is not the end all be all nor will it result in the fall of the republic. Obama will prevail and I promise he won't use FISA the way McCain would. In fact I would bet Obama would try to overhaul the bill once he is sitting in the W.H.

[notesdev]

23. It is long since gone anyway

The War on Drugs pretty much finished off whatever parts of the Constitution survived the institution of the Federal Reserve.

[tridim]

25. Here's what your avatar has to say about this..

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=3389436&mesg_id=3389436

"The people have a right to be disappointed in the Senate's approval of the new FISA bill, Senator Russ Feingold (D-WI) told Maddow. However, the best remedy, he said, is a Democratic president, particularly a President Obama."

[elocs]

68. This is the part of that interview that so many seem to want to disregard:

"However, the best remedy, he said, is a Democratic president, particularly a President Obama."

[lame54]

2. What does this mean to you?...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gU5gA6IcIpk

First they put away the dealers,
keep our kids safe and off the street.
Then they put away the prostitutes,
keep married men cloistered at home.

Then they shooed away the bums,
then they beat and bashed the queers,
turned away asylum-seekers,
fed us suspicions and fears.
We didn't raise our voice,
we didn't make a fuss.
It's funny there was no one left to notice
when they came for us.

Looks like witches are in season,
you better fly your flag and be aware
of anyone who might fit the description,
diversity is now our biggest fear.

Now with our conversations tapped
and our differences exposed,
how ya supposed to love your neighbor
with our minds and curtains closed?
We used to worry 'bout big brother,
now we got a big father and an even bigger mother.

And you still believe
this aristocracy gives a fuck about you.
They put the mock in democracy
and you swallowed every hook.

The sad truth is
you'd rather follow the school into the net
'cause swimming alone at sea
is not the kind of freedom that you actually want.

So go back to your crib and suck on a tit
go bask in the warmth of your diaper.
You're sitting in shit and piss
while sucking a giant pacifier,
a country of adult infants.
A legion of mental midgets,
a country of adult infants,
a country of adult infants.
all regaining their unconsciousness

[SidneyCarton]

19. So go drink your hemlock

Why are you here if there is no hope? If we are really sedated slaves, then waking us up merely awakens us to a sense of our awful futility.

[Lars39]

3. FISA could eventually be used to block organizing efforts

to accomplish all that.

[rg302200]

5. And do you think Obama would use it for that?

Your missing the point of my post...if we put Obama in the W.H. then FISA becomes a mute issue. Nor do I think any president will use it for that. I think that what you speak is just a worst case scenario that will never happen. FISA is not the end of the world!

[exothermic]

12. moot, not mute...and Obama is still a hell of a long way from the W.H.

But you're right...we have a chance to elect somebody who might not misuse executive power so let's be happy.

[rg302200]

16. damn it was moot, sorry forgot to hit the check spelling button

:)

[FiveGoodMen]

38. "Nor do I think any president will use it for that"

Did you think Bush would do any of the things he's done?

[Lars39]

46. He's human, isn't he?

No one is infallible.

[nightrain]

6. It's not either FISA OR the Iraq occupation, or the economy, or

whatever issue.

We can deal with more than one issue at a time.

I happen to think that the 4th Amendment is pretty important, AND so are getting out of Iraq, impeaching Bush/Cheney, reducing the speculation on gas and oil, and fixing our Gulf Coast damage, and our infrastructure, providing healthcare to all Americans, etc. etc. etc.

Let's not do black/white thinking.

[rg302200]

10. I am not...

But am I am attempting to point out that there are those in this forum who do...you are either for FISA (thus against us) or your against it (thus with us) and against any hope of putting Obama in the White House. I am for FISA, I have no problem with it, does that mean I am any less of a democrat than anyone else in this forum? I support Universal Health care, I want us out of Iraq, I want decreased cost in oil, I want a better environment and I want to decrease the number of poor people in this country. The other day I took a political quiz at my local Dem's HQ and I was ranked as a strong liberal progressive so see we just don't all agree on the same things all the time!

[nightrain]

53. okay, so what other Constitutionally-provided freedoms etc are you

willing to forgo? Perhaps you're not aware of the gravity of the issue? Privacy's not such a big issue to you? Huh! Are you watching Sweden's reaction/response to infringement on their privacy? Why would you NOT care about privacy?

[bowens43]

7. there is NO issue more important the restoring than Constitution.

[rg302200]

8. Where did it go? Did some one steal it?

Not one person in this forum is going to jail for things found out in FISA, not me, not you not joe public next door. The only ones that will are those that are actually person's of interest...I will still not end up in jail for no reason and neither will you. Remember Lincoln suspended the right of habeas corpus and still freed the slaves and won the war and is, to this day, regarded as one of our best presidents!

[YvonneCa]

57. Legislative decisions...by Congress, by the Supreme Court...

...or by a President (not just Bush or Obama, but ANY future president) can steal bits of the Constitution at a time. That's why paying attention to what government is doing is every citizen's responsibility. This FISA legislation just stole a chunk. :(

[Phillycat]

9. Then you don't actually understand the American government

and what this means.

You think you're losing the manufacturing jobs in Ohio now? Wait til the gov't start using the FISA provisions to spy on organizers, so you can't even be assured workplace safety or workman's compensation.

[rg302200]

11. And who do you think is more likely to do that?

Obama or McCain and if you can sit there and say Obama with a straight face then your a f*****g liar!

It won't happen, so get over yourself and your self-righteous attitude! We are still a republic, not a fascist country and we will always have the right to organize!

[Phillycat]

14. I don't understand the point of your post.

"Who is more likely to do that?" What difference does that make? This is the United States Constitution we're talking about, a document that has survived more or less intact for hundreds of years, being eviscerated. It's IMPORTANT, regardless of who is running for President! For God's sake.

And if you actually believe the bit about "we will always have the right..." stop and think about all the rights they've already eroded or removed. Why should freedom to organize be safe? In fact, it's already been infringed upon by the corporations.

[rg302200]

17. FISA is not a deal breaker

Do you understand my point yet? Again I ask you, do you honestly think Obama will use its provisions the way Bush has or McCain will? And lets not forgot all of these arguments became irrelevant the moment the government shoved the Patriot Act down our throats. Our rights went away in 2001 and I am still here, and I still have the right to organize (Just attended a union meeting two weeks ago, might unionize, might not). Your paranoia is starting to tire me.....

[Phillycat]

18. But. One of the reasons we all want Bushco out of power is they

keep destroying the Constitution. So, according to you, we should destroy the Constitution to get a candidate elected to get Bush out of office so he can't destroy the Constitution anymore?

I swear, this surrealist nightmare we live in gets more bizarre every day.

[rg302200]

24. You keep saying the Constitution was destroyed

What was destroyed? The courts were actually brought back into the picture with this new FISA law. The only thing it did that angers so many was give Bush immunity. Does anyone here actually think he will ever go to prison?

You know what I am done discussing the points of FISA. My OG Post was meant to show people that FISA is not the only thing we need to worry about and that a majority of people out there have more to worry about than who is listening to their conversations!

[Phillycat]

28. The 4th Amendment, to be precise.

And if you wanted to have a discussion and educate yourself, we could do that. But you don't want to do that, do you? You just want to argue. You enjoy that. Take care.

[rg302200]

30. I took the time to actually read the FISA bill

did you? I discussed my points clearly in the original post, its posters like you that only want to argue. Either we are with you or against you, there is no compromise with the bigger picture for you.

[Phillycat]

32. Yes, I did read the bill. Again, I don't understand you.

What does "either we are with you or against you" mean? Against what?

[rg302200]

33. nevermind you refuse to understand other peoples

point of view

[Phillycat]

35. In that I asked you to clarify, I am TRYING to understand you.

:shrug:

[YvonneCa]

60. Actually, it gives immunity...

...to telecom companies that agreed to gather data for the Bush Administration.

[exothermic]

26. Nose, face...spite

like that.

:eyes:

[readmoreoften]

47. I lost it all fighting for the right to organize in 2006. The case is now at the United Nations.

Because it was impossible to fire me outright because I was a good worker, I was promoted to a higher position and stripped of my health insurance, benefits, and over 50% for being a rank-and-file union member fighting for continued union recognition. The case is now at the UN. Anyone who thinks that the right to organize isn't under attack hasn't paid much attention to labor organizing since Reagan.

Moreover, Obama and McCain will have little control over black operations. The DIA, CIA, and the Pentagon are worlds unto themselves.

[YvonneCa]

59. Skip Obama and McCain. Think 100 years into the future...

..instead. Some anonymous President that neither of us ever imagined will have powers...granted by our Constitution. I want that Constitution to be a powerful guide to keep our democracy strong for my grandchildren. How about you?

We will only keep our rights (to free speech, privacy, the right to organize, bear arms, etc.) if we keep a Constitution that guarantees them. Today's legislation just took rights away.

[librechik]

13. Fine for you. What about our grandchildren?

We have to fight for the Constitution or they won't have it to protect them.

[rg302200]

15. And who is going to do away with it?

Obama? McCain? The Constitution has been changed before and its still here, it will never go away no matter how paranoid some people may be. Lets get Obama in the W.H. first before we bury the Constitution six feet under. Then if he destroys it you can say I told you so.....

[librechik]

20. It will be whittled away gradually by the very people we "legally" elect.

I'm probably older than you, so you don't see, as I do, how much we have lost, just in the last 30 years. Protesters in cages? Illegal wiretapping? NO HABEAS CORPUS????!!!!

Is this the fucking 9th century?

They did it gradually so nobody would notice and fewer people care. If you don't care and don't notice the difference, then that's fine. My grandkids (I have four, 3 boys to be sent off to the oil wars, if they are too poor to survive otherwise) will notice.

[Phillycat]

21. Maybe even if they aren't too poor.

We've been flirting with conscription for a while now. If we open another front in Iran, it's near a certainty.

Your post is exactly correct, and unfortunately I think will make little difference in the OP's understanding. He wants to argue, not learn. Best to you and your family, making it through this trying time. :hug:

[murray hill farm]

22. I agree after thinking it over.

And I do not diminish the importance of FISA to our constitution and our civil rights. But it can be fixed....and it will be fixed once Obama is our president. But for now, lets get him elected for all of the multitude of huge problems we face in our country....this election is...really is...the most important one in our life times....and in the life time of our country...and our constitution.

[rg302200]

27. I am glad you understand my post

I am not saying that FISA is not important, but in the bigger picture of things its not as important as getting us out of Iraq or repairing the economy. We can either come together by realizing that or we can splinter the Democrat Party by continuing to complain about FISA. And I for one will not let my party be shattered.

[Fumesucker]

51. A touch of cognitive dissonance..

"Why I don't give two S***s about FISA"

"I am not saying that FISA is not important"

In fact, that is exactly what the title of your OP says..

[rg302200]

55. Did you actually read my post?

I said, "of course I care about FISA but its not a deal breaker with me," which was the point of my post. There are more important things, in my opinion and of my immediate concern, than FISA. That does not mean that I neglect its importance to some people on this board, its just that I don't feel it ranks above any of the above mentioned items in my OP.

So your post tells me that you didn't actually read my entire post, instead you simply cherry picked what you wanted to read and nothing else.

[Fumesucker]

66. I read the entire post..

How else would I have found the part I quoted?

Truth be known, I believe your title is correct, you don't give two shits about the Constitution.

[exothermic]

29. But why are you willing to trust him to "fix" it when he could have worked to stop it

in the first place? That seems like a pretty airheaded position...
:shrug:

[rg302200]

31. I understand this position

there a lot of people that feel Obama should have spoken out against this bill. But what would that have gotten him? 3 months worth of McCain and 527's advertising that Obama is weak on terror and that Obama (whose middle name sounds funny) secretly supports terror. Obama was damned either way I guess...

[exothermic]

34. Yeah, you're right. There won't be any suggestion he's weak on terror, now.

The repukes would never invent something to hammer him with...


:eyes:

[AntiFascist]

36. FISA means a lot more than simply "listening in on your phone calls"...

that is the most naive summary of what this is all about that I have ever read. What it is is a means for the ocrruption that has taken control of our government to remain in power. Since most congresspeople benefit from this corruption, they are not willing to look further into how this works. Did you ever consider that war in the Middle East may be getting propped up because the trillions of dollars being poured into it are a tremendous cash cow for those who benefit? What about whether or not those who are pushing for universal healthcare may be considered "socialists" by those who make massive profits from the current healthcare system? The price of gas is directly affected by threats of terrorism, what if certain threats that are key to our military objectives are allowed to proceed in order to keep the military-industrial complex in business?

Please don't be naive when evaluating what the FISA bill is all about. There's a lot more to it than meets the eye.

[rg302200]

39. I know what it is about...I have read the bill

I am summing it up the same way a middle of the road, not politically involved voter would sum it up. Thats my point....

By the way, I read the bill and here is what I got

FISA would...

* Require FISA court permission to wiretap Americans who are overseas.

* Prohibit targeting a foreigner to secretly eavesdrop on an American's calls or e-mails without court approval.

* Allow the FISA court 30 days to review existing but expiring surveillance orders before renewing them.

* Allow eavesdropping in emergencies without court approval, provided the government files required papers within a week.

* Prohibit the government from invoking war powers or other authorities to supersede surveillance rules in the future.
(from Wikipedia)

Also got this from a friend of mine who works for the ODP (Ohio Democrat Party).

FISA was established in 1978. It has been a governmental spying act for 3 decades. This bill that Obama is supporting actually makes it HARDER for the executive branch to abuse FISA. It requires them to have more authorization and prohibits them from using "war powers" as an excuse for ignoring surveillance law.

Also, those telecom companies were pressured by the NSA to help with surveillance. If *you* were pressured by a government agency to help them, wouldn't *you* want immunity from lawsuits?

So all you idiots who are screaming and crying that Obama betrayed you need to shut the hell up for a minute and read the actual summary of the bill. It actually gives MORE protection to your privacy, not LESS.

[AntiFascist]

65. I'm not one of those "idiots"....

I realize that Obama is likely supporting the FISA bill so that he does not get pegged as a left-wing liberal who is willing to compromise on security. I also understand that he did support Dodd's amendment to remove telecom immunity. Obama is only one of many Democratic senators and I honestly don't view him in a leadership position on this particular issue, nor should he take such a leadership position while running against McCain for President. Others may disagree.

I DO have a problem with Democratic Senator Jay Rockefeller who I watched defending the bill on the floor of the Senate. You might waive him off as just one of those congresspeople who is in bed with the special interests, in this case, the telecom companies. It is the words that he used in defending the bill, and the strategy behind those words that I am particularly troubled about. He framed the issue as one of government doing business with the telecoms, and one particular concern he had was to not scare off the telecoms so that they will continue to do business with the government.

Since when should the security of our government be at the mercy of business relationships with domestic companies?? This idea, this concept of government/private industry business relationships in order to maintain our defense is the very sickness that has compromised our government ever since George H. W. Bush decided to privatize parts of the CIA so that they could work with Saudis behind the backs of Congress. How many people realize that our government was working with Osama bin Ladin when they were battling the Communists in Afghanistan, and that much of the intelligence support we provided to the Saudis and to the mujahadeen was handled behind the backs of Congress in the form of private industry doing business with the government?

These days Congress does not even want to ask the hard questions of what might be going on. Instead they prefer a 'hear no evil, see no evil, speak no evil' approach that allows the executive branch of government to do whatever the hell they want in the name of security. If we didn't learn our lessons from 9-11 then maybe we deserve what could very well be coming next.

[rg302200]

67. I also saw Rockefeller

I was very surprised by that until I read where the telecoms gave him substantial donations. Anyways I am glad you understand whats going on, because Obama was willing to filibuster the bill if the Democrats could get the 60 needed for the action. Since they couldn't he tried to work on compromise's (such as Dodd's amendment). In the end, like you said, Obama was only one man who was not in the leadership position to stop this bill. The criticism he is receiving should be placed where it truly belongs...at the feet of Harry Reid!

[Skittles]

37. this is pathetic

EDUCATE YOURSELF

[rg302200]

40. Tell you what, let me educate you

FISA would...

* Require FISA court permission to wiretap Americans who are overseas.

* Prohibit targeting a foreigner to secretly eavesdrop on an American's calls or e-mails without court approval.

* Allow the FISA court 30 days to review existing but expiring surveillance orders before renewing them.

* Allow eavesdropping in emergencies without court approval, provided the government files required papers within a week.

* Prohibit the government from invoking war powers or other authorities to supersede surveillance rules in the future.
(from Wikipedia)

Also got this from a friend of mine who works for the ODP (Ohio Democrat Party).

FISA was established in 1978. It has been a governmental spying act for 3 decades. This bill that Obama is supporting actually makes it HARDER for the executive branch to abuse FISA. It requires them to have more authorization and prohibits them from using "war powers" as an excuse for ignoring surveillance law.

Also, those telecom companies were pressured by the NSA to help with surveillance. If *you* were pressured by a government agency to help them, wouldn't *you* want immunity from lawsuits?

So all you idiots who are screaming and crying that Obama betrayed you need to shut the hell up for a minute and read the actual summary of the bill. It actually gives MORE protection to your privacy, not LESS.

I have done my homework....have you? Guess not!

[YvonneCa]

62. Wow...

...that's unbelievable.

1. Democratic Party, not Democrat Party.

2. Not only were telecom companies pressured, they were probably misled. But they knew the law. Some telecoms refused.

3. You seem to be confusing the 1978 Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act (FISA) with the new legislation signed today by President Bush.

4. I agree that the new legislation (signed by Bush today that Obama voted for) makes it harder to abuse 1978 FISA and the newly revised FISA. That is good. Many worry that immunity for telecoms should not happen. We are all entitled to our opinion on that.

5. I agree generally that Democrats should unite and elect Obama. I trust he will fix this.

6. Where I think (JMHO) your OP was confusing was in saying we should go for unity now, and fix FISA later...you were unclear. It sounded like you put everything else above the Constitution. THAT, I cannot do. And Obama, being a Constituional scholar, probably can't either. So my vote for Obama was never in doubt.

PEACE.

[mmonk]

41. To those of us that understand freedom, FISA means a great

deal. Does that mean that I'm not going to vote for Obama in the fall? Of course not. What it does mean is that after these elections, I need to evaluate for myself where I need to be in good conscience. It may mean that I become unaffiliated after trying hard to get representatives to do the right things by the citizens of this country. Currently, I'm an Obama delegate at the state level, a contributor to many candidates of the democratic party and office holders, and an active Democrat at the precinct, county, district, and state level. But what I'm not is a fool. A fool is someone that keeps trying to do the same things with the same people and expect different results. Time will tell me what to do.

[Cleita]

42. Here's the problem.

Randi Rhodes just interviewed author Naomi Klein, "The Shock Doctrine", and this is what she said. If she interviews people either by telephone or email, those communications can be listened to. Anyone who has relatives overseas or soldiers in the war zone can be listened to. It really will make people unable to talk frankly about things. In her case, it will be harder for her to interview sources for her writings.

[rg302200]

43. Ok see now thats an understandable argument against FISA

the first one that I have heard on this post or any post other than "it destroys the Constitution" the original Constitution was changed years ago. It was destroyed by such people as Lincoln, T.R. FDR, LBJ, Reagan and both Bush's. To hold one man accountable for centuries of past wrongs is not going to help change the future.

As for Klein and those that worry I say to them to worry only if McCain gets elected because I know Obama will change FISA once he is elected.

[Cleita]

44. Only if he has a Democratic Congress.

If we get a Republican majority in even one of the houses, he will have a tough uphill fight on anything he wants to fix.

[rg302200]

45. I don't think we have anything to worry about there

I don't see the Dem's losing the house or senate in any of the next 3 upcoming elections...just my hutch thats all!

By the way LOVE your avatar :)

[readmoreoften]

48. You "know" Obama will change FISA once he's elected. Awesome. I guess we're all idiots for not

trusting your hunches.

[rg302200]

49. You should, do you honestly think McCain is more likely to change it?

If you believe that then I have a bridge to sell you....

[readmoreoften]

52. No. I don't. But that only means we have two bad options and we'd better start organizing.

We don't have to make-believe that Obama is a viable agent for ending the regime just because McCain is the obvious continuation of the regime. If our choice is between pneumonia and cancer, can't we choose health? Or can we at least choose pneumonia and then do everything in our power to get rid of it? I say Yes We Can. But let's not lie and call pneumonia "relative health" because it's not cancer.

[Fumesucker]

50. Why am I a tad suspicious of someone who calls the Democratic party..

The "Democrat" party, time after time?

That is a right wing meme and you have used it multiple times in this thread.

[rg302200]

54. Because thats what I am used to saying and typing

ODP is the Ohio Democratic Party, DNC is the Democratic National Committee but in my poduck county we call ourselves the Guernsey County Democrat Club and the Guernsey County Dem's...As president of my club I have formed the habit of writing Guernsey Count Democrat Club over and over so I never really thought about adding the -ic to it. Plus I am stuck in a rural area where everyone speaks lazy english and most of the Dem's here say Democrat Party because, I guess, it sounds less formal.

I have never heard of the Democrat Party phase being a smear by Republicans...thats a new one to me. But after you mentioned it I actually did come across an article that talked about what you mentioned and now I have learned something new today.

Rest assured that I am a Democrat who belongs to the Democratic Party and at no time did I mean to use the noun as adjective form that rethugs like to use.

Thanks for the heads up!

[Fumesucker]

58. You're welcome n/t

[YvonneCa]

63. I hope you will educate those you work with...

...about how important it is to say 'Democratic'. It IS a respect thing. :)

[YvonneCa]

56. And so, how do you feel ...in Ohio...about the Constitution? Here...

...in Ca. I think it matters.:patriot:

[rg302200]

61. I said nothing about the Constitution

but yea I kinda like it...it has cool stuff in it, like the Bill of Rights and such. For sure!

Come one no one here is questioning the Constitution what I am questioning is all of these posters who said they won't support Obama. So what does that get them? A McCain presidency that will abuse the power of FISA more than Obama. Besides Obama did support the amendments and I am hoping he will work to reverse FISA once in the W.H.

[YvonneCa]

64. By saying that all this hoopla around Obama's FISA vote...

...is less important to you than the issues you listed (in the OP), it begs the question: Less important than what? There are several possible answers to that question:


Less important than accountability for telecom companies...

Less important than modernizing the 1978 FISA legislation...

Less important than fixing a situation where Bush broke Constitutional law and ordered wiretaps...

Less important than uniting our party...

Less important than voting for Obama in November...



Since you didn't clearly specify UNITY and VOTING OBAMA as your focus...some of us chose the Constitution from that list.