English Only...

[YvonneCa]

...that should get some attention! :7 (Third title for this post.) :)

Fear and selfishness is all I hear about the language issue. Obama's remarks about children learning Spanish becomes touchy because it ignites the 'English Only' crowd, an opinion sometimes voiced loudly among the Lou Dobbs Independents group. JMHO, but I think some in this crowd have two problems that THEY need to think about:


1. FEAR Many in this group are very afraid of change...especially in America's traditions as they see them. They want to keep English as our only language because...in their eyes...it has always been that way, and they fear losing what has always been. So people knowing more than English 'could' eventually erase English in importance.

2. SELFISHNESS Many in this group don't want to support...or maybe have to pay taxes for...anything that doesn't benefit them (or maybe their family) personally. So, even if it might be good to have a multi-lingual electorate (speaking of jobs), they don't want to pay for it. Essentially this is the argument about taxes paying for public schools...when people complain about having to pay property taxes to support a neighborhood school, but their kids are grown an no longer go there. Why should they pay for someone else's child's education? Selfishness.



So, intentionally or not, Obama recently waded into the issue. Some on this board say it was a 'goof', and some don't. The media, no doubt, will spin it as such. But I think it was a very honest answer to an important question...and the start of a good conversation for our country about a very important issue in 2008, education. So I posted this earlier today, in response to someone who was worried that Obama, in his comments, had made a mistake:


<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<,


I'm glad you are concerned about your children's future. And it's clear you also see that...in your current circumstances...a language will help them get a job. That is a start at understanding where Obama is coming from. (And I agree with you, that some independents will balk on his words, without taking the time you are taking to learn about the issue.) That is a risk, and Obama is courageous to take it.

But, as a teacher, I have watched the futures of many of my students. They have varied goals...and for most of their future jobs, they will have a better chance to be hired (like your kids) if they know another language. The ones who want to do business with China, need Chinese. The ones who want to go into HLS or intelligence fields need Farsi. The list goes on and on.

But the general lesson I learned is...they ALL need a second language of some kind to be successful in THEIR future...which will be very different from my generation, or yours. It isn't about the importance of English...and, by the way, I want everyone to learn English (I have another story on that one, if you're interested. )

So you see and care about the future of your children. I see and care about a larger group...my children, but also my students. I think Obama sees and cares about an even larger group...his children, the many children he has met in schools across the country, and ALL THE CHILDREN he will be responsible for helping as President.

I think that is why he said what he said...and I think he means it. It was not a 'goof' or a mistake, although some may not understand (independents, for example) what he means. It was not a 'goof' or a mistake, although some may use it to their advantage and spin it as such (Republicans and some media).

And I think Obama is smart. I think he is RIGHT on this issue. He is making us think about issues that the country needs to think about and discuss. Just IMAGINE four year...or eight years...of doing that, and how good it will be for our country.

[TCJ70]

1. I agree on the importance of a second language...

...but that language should not be dictated to them. It should be a choice.

I think for people in the english-only crowd, it's not neccesarily about the people who live here learning a second language. It's about people who are coming here. Like it or not, there IS a need for a common language. Personally, I'd be in support of expanded ESL class availability for immigrants coming here.

[DJ13]

3. Good post

You said what I was thinking.

[RB TexLa]

4. If 30 or 40% of the local population speaks a language and will continue to do so

even after learning the majority language, isn't it stupid to not teach the language that 30 to 40% of the population speaks?

It's no different than dictating the teaching of English.

[TCJ70]

7. Here's the thing:

The people coming here are choosing to do so. It's a choice for them. As such, they should be prepared for life here, if not, we should help them get there (a la the ESL classes I mentioned).

I think it is stupid to let people choosing to come here dictate what our children learn in school. If a child wants to learn a language, let them choose which one.

[RB TexLa]

13. Let them choose which one they want to learn past the local languages

No problem with that.


So if the majority of Americans one day speak Spanish as a first language then you would be fine with children choosing if they want to learn English or not?


English doesn't always have to be spoken here.

[krispos42]

93. There are integration issues

Generally speaking, the second, third, etc., generations of immigrants don't speak their parent's native tongues with any kind of fluency. Specifically regarding Spanish-speaking Latinos, what is maintaining the Spanish language in some areas of the country is the fact that the population is continually reinforced by new arrivals, hundreds of thousands a year.

Previously, with European immigrants, we opened the doors for a while, then came over, then we closed them. Without effective and cheap long-range communications and travel, the Europeans quickly assimilated.

With spanish-speaking Latinos, primarily Mexicans, we're not getting that "Well, we're in America now, let's start a new life" mentality as much as we would normally be.

The reason that 30-40% speak Spanish and have been and will be for years is that the integration has been stalled because the door to Mexico has not been closed.


I imagine that when the Italians came over in bulk about a hundred years ago, there were neighborhoods where 30-40% of the people spoke Italian. Nobody said "well, let's start teaching Italian and English then."



Having said that, I think a second language should be started in like second grade. Put the students randomly in Spanish, French, German, and Italian languages.

[RB TexLa]

132. Issues to whom? One does not leave their culture or language at the border

We as a country have done pretty well adjusting to having two primary languages. Yes in the past people were socially forced to give up their native tongue and their culture in the name of being American, let's be happy those horrible days are gone.

[krispos42]

142. They also can't keep American culture and language out of their house and their kids

Integration is GOING to happen; fighting it instead of embracing it only makes it harder on everybody.

Not saying give up your native culture or forget about it, but recognize that that is the "Old Country".


And we don't have two primary languages. We have one, with small, select parts of the country having a strong second one. And even that is a recent development.

[EFerrari]

140. There's a bank over the hill that hires Russion and Chinese tellers

because there are so many people in San Francisco who do their business in those languages.

American children weren't even required to attend grammar school to completion until 1918, 90 years ago.

[EFerrari]

5. I've never met a Latino immigrant who refused to learn English.

The folks least likely to learn fluent English are people like my grandmother who came here late in life and didn't work outside our home. She understood it very well but was too self conscious of her accent to speak it. She was, though, fluent in other languages.

And you're right about ESL classes. There aren't enough of them for people who want to take them.

That whole "they won't learn English" bs is right wing propaganda.

[TCJ70]

6. Hrm, I don't see where I advocated that immigrants don't want to learn English...

...but I agree with you.

[EFerrari]

8. I don't think you did. But in any of these conversations

the idea seems to be floating around in the subtext.

These English only people deprive themselves of so much by hating other peoples and languages and cultures. It's a shame, really, that their lives are lived so narrowly when there's so much all around them that they could enjoy.

[TCJ70]

10. Ah, I just wasn't sure where you were coming...

...good to know I didn't give you that impression! I moved to an area with a large Spanish speaking population recently so I'm teaching myself (I have plenty of places to practice), but that's a choice I'm making.

[EFerrari]

15. I moved away from my family here in northern California for a couple of years

(and so, my user name) to the southern part of the state. The suburb was white and I used to walk to a nearby Mexican bakery so I could hear Spanish because I missed it like missing your tunes. My neighbors on either side became noticeably suspicious when I spoke to the servant class in Spanish -- because in that neighborhood Latinos only showed up behind lawn mowers and strollers.

It was creepy. I was so happy to oome back north to my multicultural city. I have no evidence that there was red lining in that neighborhood except that there was no color anywhere.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

9. Here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x3596253#3596455

:eyes:

[TCJ70]

11. *sigh* OK, you read what you want to. n/t

[YvonneCa]

23. Yes, propaganda it...

..is. My experience with immigrants is similar to yours...they mostly value education and are anxious to learn.

[EFerrari]

24. When I was in public schools (and they were rated among the best

in the country at the time) I had to sit through two years of elementary Spanish because it was the only offering. I would have loved to try another language and to avoid learning scripts about rice and meatballs. :)

[YvonneCa]

25. I had a similar experience, only...

...it lasted 4 years and was in high school! :7 I'm pretty sure the instructional methods have changed since my high school days (we never actually had to talk :) ) and I would hope a language requirement would give students some choice, so the the language they learn is aligned with a future employment goal.

[EFerrari]

27. At least by high school, I got to be in Spanish classes at my level.

When I took my credits to Cal, the lady had to look it up because I'd essentially taken high school Spanish lit courses at a high school level. But, when I had to do my language requirements for my grad school program, French was a mess for me. I could read it and write it but pronouncing it was torture. Everything I knew kept being wrong. lol

In this area, Spanish, Mandarin and Tagalog are in very high demand. You can make a good living just translating those languages.

[LibertyLover]

30. ALM - Spanish - Level 1

Ah, those albondigas.

[EFerrari]

41. At least, there's rice, too.

LOL!

[Lydia Leftcoast]

96. ALM Spanish--Oh, that was an abomination of a textbook

based on a now discredited methodology, the idea that adults (and high school students are adults from a linguistic point of view, because they have a definitely fixed native language) can learn a new language well just by repeating phrases and not receiving any explanations has fortunately gone out the window.

A prepubescent child can pick up a conversational knowledge of another language without an accent just by living among people who speak it. You can see the survival value in that. Orphaned or abandoned children too young to fend for themselves can be easily assimilated into the culture and language of whoever takes care of them. However, this ability fades after puberty and is pretty much gone by the time you're in your early twenties.

At that point, you learn better with simple explanations of the language's internal logic first, followed by practice.

For example, if you've been drilling things like

Veo un libro.
Veo una casa.
Veo un arbol.

and then all of a sudden you get:

Veo a Pablo.
Veo a mis padres.

the average adult learner is going to say, "Hey, wait a minute! Where is that "a" coming from?" If the teacher doesn't explain it, you get one confused student. However, if the teacher explains the rule first and then practices some contrasting sentences and then has the students act out situations where they have to use those forms, then they'll retain them.

[EFerrari]

101. My mom sent me to El Salvador for two months when I was 11.

I came back with a Spanish accent -- and another year of meatball Spanish class to get through. Wish I could regress and take up another language. :)

/oops

[Lydia Leftcoast]

107. It's not too late!

With your knowledge of Spanish, you could pick up French, Portuguese, or Italian pretty easily, and since you're already bilingual, you've overcome the biggest obstacle to learning: a deep-down belief that the English way of saying things is the "natural" way.

Whenever I encountered a student who responded to a new grammatical point in Japanese with a whine of "But why do they have to say it that way?" I knew that this student was going to need extra attention to pass the course.

[EFerrari]

111. For people who learn more than one language early,

language is a little like music, isn't it? There are different scores but it's all music. Unless it's German. :)

[XemaSab]

77. My experience with immigrants is different

A lot of them are too freakin' busy WORKING to learn English. :P

[YvonneCa]

79. I share that experience...

...as well. And I have great compassion for those elderly immigrants, for whom learning English would be too overwhelming.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

97. I tutored the women of a Somali family in English in the early 1990s

There were 17 people in the extended family of three generations, including six children under five, as well as a few stray cousins.

Anyway, all the men, some of whom spoke English, had factory jobs. The teenagers were in the so-called Newcomers' Program in the Portland Public Schools and were making great progress in English, thanks partly to the mixed nationalities in the class, which meant that English was the only common language. (One of the teenagers said that her best friends in the class were from Russia and Honduras.) None of the women had gone past elementary school, one was completely illiterate, and another was illiterate, elderly, and blind.

The women spent their days doing household chores and taking care of the small children. I went to their house to give them some emergency tutoring, because they were afraid to answer the phone or the door. It was a gratifying experience. The illiterate woman was actually very smart and picked up the basics of reading English almost as quickly as her stepdaughters, who could read and write Somali.

The elderly blind woman didn't even try, though, and I would have been at a loss how to teach her, although I'm sure there are methods.

[FloridaJudy]

141. Agreed

My grandparents never really became fluent in English, but it was not for want of trying. For most people, there's a age beyond which it becomes increasingly difficult to learn a second - or third or fourth - language. Even if they manage to speak it grammatically, it's always an effort. But their children learned it well enough to graduate college and go on for advanced degrees, and we grandchildren never spoke Russian at all.

That's why I think it's great that Obama advocates teaching American kids to speak a second language early. By the time I started in High School, I'd passed that neurolinguistic window, and my Spanish is always going to be halting. Europeans start teaching their children new languages in elementary school or even preschool, which is the optimal time for learning.

[SoCalDem]

17. French Canada has the right idea.

When people move there, they are provided with and PAID to attend French classes. They know how important it is for new people to speak the primary language..the language of commerce.
They have a rigorous immersion-style of teaching, and it works..

If people want to speak their native language in personal or family settings, it's their choice, but for the day-to-day PUBLIC life, they must speak French.

Part of the multi-lingual "issue" in America, is possibly the knowledge that non-English speakers are discriminated against.. We know it, they know it, and everyone knows that the "other" one knows it.

When non-English speakers speak their native language around people who do NOT speak that language, paranoia sets in, and perhaps some may feel they are being "talked about"..

In a perverse way, it's another "test".. i.e....you are not really American, because you don't speak English..
and once English is learned, ..well you're still not American, because you have a heavy accent..
and once the accent is tamed..welll, you still don't LOOK American..


The movie industry taught people how to "be" American, and unfortunately, when most people went to movies (before TV), the image of "an American" was etched into the psyche..This was an era of segregation, so of course MOST people on the big screen were Norman Rockwellesque people.. If there WERE "others", they were the bad guys, the servants or the background.

Most of the filmmakers of that era were emigres themselves, and had a hyper patriotic notion of America..the country they loved more than life itself. Many had come from Europe, extreme poverty, and America represented everything that was wonderful, so of course their movies would have that flavor.

They propagated the idea of America that THEY saw, and they over-romaticized many of the myths..

By the time TV came to be, millions of people had been indoctrinated into a nationalistic fervor.. EVERYONE went to the movies back then.. There was no AC..every community had a theatre..movies were cheap, and there was very little else to do, so of course the "message" got through. They people who packed movie houses every night of the week for decades, were our parents & grandparents. THEY taught us what they "knew"..

We are a paranoid nation. We claim to embrace the other..the new..yet we cling (yes..I said CLING) to what's "supposed to be".

Anything that deviates from the "supposed to be", is immediately foreign..suspect and must be feared.

When we fear something, we demonize it and push it away..scapegoat it and blame it for all that is wrong.

Individually, we can un-learn that behavior, but as a group?? maybe not.:(

[Lydia Leftcoast]

98. Israel does the same: intensive Hebrew classes for immigrants

That makes so much sense. Actually teach immigrants your language instead of griping about how they're not magically picking it up out of the air.

[YvonneCa]

22. I agree with your first point...

...which language SHOULD be a choice. I'd suspect that Obama would agree with that as well.

To your second point, I also agree about the need for a common language. I also think public schools provide an important 'common educational curriculum' which has value.

And, I hope, part of that common curriculum is a second language which a student chooses to learn, that will support that student's future employment goals.

[TCJ70]

35. Then it looks like we're in full agreement!

Nice to meet you!

[YvonneCa]

37. Same here...

...:)

[XemaSab]

75. I support teaching a third language after English and Spanish

:shrug: :P

[YvonneCa]

76. YAaaay !! n/t

[TCJ70]

87. And a fourth after Dutch!!! n/t

[Redstone]

2. So, we spend my tax money on making signs in Spanish for public places?

No big deal to me.

It's a fact that we have a large Spanish-speaking population in this country. I'd prefer that they all learn English as quickly as they could, but if they can't or don't, I'd rather that they have signs that help them find their way to the hospital more easily, than not.

After all, a life saved is worth MUCH more than "English First," isn't it?

Redstone

[YvonneCa]

20. The title was attention seeking...

...on purpose. The first two titles (same post) sank like a rock. :) Did you read the actual post?

[Beausoleil]

12. So I'm at work today in San Antonio

smoking on the loading dock of the building I work in, one of the building maintenance guys (obviously Latino) holds the door open for a delivery guy (another Latino) and says, "Kommen sie hierein, bitte." Cracked me up! The security guy (also Latino) got a big kick out of it too. It wouldn't surprise me at all if the guy is tri-lingual.

[KamaAina]

18. San Antonio street signs were once trilingual

in precisely those three languages: English, Spanish and German.

[Beausoleil]

40. Yes, there is quite a bit of German heritage in central and south central Texas

New Braunfels/Gruene and Fredricksburg in particular among others.

[Romulox]

14. Open borders are about CHEAP LABOR and undercutting US workers

You can pretend that this is about some sort of humanist ideals if you wish, but rest assured: the open border situation is nothing much more than the new indentured servitude, feeding the demands for ever cheaper labor, willing to toil in ever worse conditions.

Cargill, ADM, Tyson Foods, Hebrew National et al. are always thrilled at whatever support they can get from the Left in their quest to circumvent US labor and safety laws.

[EFerrari]

16. The answer to the cheapening of labor is not xenophobia. n/t

[Romulox]

29. Neither is the answer reversing 100 years of labor laws

simply because the allies of big business toss around epithets like "xenophobe" or "racist" against anyone who dare oppose the new servitude...

[Lifetimedem]

33. Exactly !

[EFerrari]

39. Nonsense. Hate crimes against Lations in this country have risen

by more than one third since 2003. Are you going to tell me the Southern Law Poverty Center is an agent of corporatists?


http://www.splcenter.org/intel/intelreport/article.jsp?aid=845

[Romulox]

44. What you ignore is that the exploitation of illegals is itself a form of racist aggression

Singling out a group of people as "exploitable" based on the language they speak, the color of their skin, their legal status (and their lack of ability to stick up for themselves) is itself a form of racist violence.

If any that oppose the rise of a servant underclass may be labeled "racist" based on the actions of a third party, then you will need to accept responsibility for the promotion of this racialized exploitation by the same token. :hi:

[EFerrari]

50. Nope. It's entirely possible to oppose both

economic exploitation AND xenophobia and racism forwarded under color of economic considerations.

[YvonneCa]

52. Thank you...

...for this. I completely agree. :)

[Romulox]

53. It's possible, but since it's not what big business wants, it doesn't happen.

Open border advocates shill for big business today. Maybe multinational corporations will cease their racist exploitation of marginalized workers some day.

But there is little pressure to do so when business's allies among the putative left provide such useful cover.

[YvonneCa]

58. I'm not for open...

...borders. This thread is about Obama's statement about educating our children.

[Romulox]

62. The two issues *may* be related...hmmm....nt

[YvonneCa]

65. True...

... http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=3596253&mesg_id=3600825

[EFerrari]

63. Advocating human rights for immigrants is not shilling for big business.

[Romulox]

67. Unless you're advocating for a crackdown on illegal employment, and control of the border...

Yes it does.

There's a reason George W. Bush, John McCain, and Smithfield Meats agree with you on these issues. It's not hard to spot. You give them an ideological framework by which they can defend their continuing exploitation.

[EFerrari]

69. No, That's a false dilemma. And those people certainly don't

agree with what you take to be my position.

It's interesting to me that you drag open borders into this thread which was about language acquisition as if the Spanish language was new to this continent or, as if in itself it is guilty of a cultural crime. It's not hard to spot.

/clarity

[Romulox]

71. No, not a false dilemma in the least. It's what's happening on the ground.

"It's interesting to me that you drag open borders into this thread"

Now it's my turn to say "nonsense!" The issue was implicit in the OP, in which the poster accused Americans of being guilty of harboring:


"1. FEAR Many in this group are very afraid of change...

2. SELFISHNESS Many in this group don't want to support..."



The fear is of the destruction of our livelihoods. The selfishness is any attempt to stop this. So nonsense that I "drag open borders into this," just because I am aware of the subtext.

[YvonneCa]

72. I didn't accuse 'Americans', I accused the 'English Only Crowd'...

...who jumps on any candidate...Democrat or Republican...who says learning multiple languages is an important skill our children should have in the future.

And I say this as an American who wants our children to succeed in their future, as an American who thinks we all should know/learn English, as an American teacher who thinks our kids need to be the BEST skilled workers EVER, and as an American who agrees with Obama when he says this election is about the future versus the past.

In past generations, we Americans could get by knowing only one language. The future generation will need more...the best college education, the best technology skills, and fluency in multiple languages.

[YvonneCa]

73. And, did you realize...

...you admitted to the fear part? :)


"The fear is of the destruction of our livelihoods. "



I think you have much company in that fear.

[EFerrari]

84. You did drag immigration into a discussion of Spanish language acquisition --

a language that has been on this continent longer than Engish.

Maybe any reference to Spanish language and cultures is about immigration to you, but that is your frame, not an implicit one.

[Romulox]

94. "Instead of worrying about whether immigrants can learn English...

"Instead of worrying about whether immigrants can learn English -- they'll learn English -- you need to make sure your child can speak Spanish."

-Barack Obama, July 8, 2008

This was the quote that occasioned the OP. So again, I must call nonsense. :hi:

[EFerrari]

104. Which spoke to language acquisition and job readiness

not immigration policy.

You really don't understand that there are many, many, many Latinos who live here and who are citizens, do you? Latinos are ALL AROUND YOU.

lol

[Romulox]

105. Right. Obama's comments on immigrants had NOTHING to do with immigration

Nothing. :silly:

"You really don't understand that there are many, many, many Latinos who live here and who are citizens, do you? Latinos are ALL AROUND YOU."

Oh noes! :silly: :silly:

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

110. It wasn't a comment on immigrants.

It was a comment on native born citizens.

Is English your second language?

[EFerrari]

112. It's too late! We're already here!

I was interested to see that the current arguments against immigrants from Latin America were already present here in California during the Gold Rush. There were no immigration laws as we now have them, but those furriners were run off their claims anyway. And that was in '49 -- a year before California was even a state. That worked.

:silly:

[Romulox]

114. The native population will always resist immigration when jobs are scarce and wages are depressed

Simple supply and demand dictates that wages will fall when the supply of labor increases.

However, when mass immigration is coupled with human trafficking, sub-standard and inhumane working conditions, seeming immunity from OSHA and FLSA, forced detention, and wages far below the living wage, then the situation becomes more heated.

Using the language of racism to counter any and all criticism of these trends is disgusting, imo and all the more invidious as the multi-nationals corporations that sponsor and profit from these abuses have entirely co-opted this language for their own use. Now any advocate for labor is a potential "racist!" This, despite the fact that these self-same multinationals take advantage of these people's marginalized status to reap huge profits!

Finally, if you claim to be such a supporter of Mexico and the interests of Mexicans, you must realize that the open border is all that keeps the ruling conservative class of Mexico in power. Mexico is a wealthy country with an ongoing leftist insurrection. If Mexico's poorest were not allowed to be shoved across the US border, true change would be possible for Mexico. But with all its enablers in the US and the "escape valve" of employment in the US, the oligarchal power structure in Mexico is doing just fine!

[EFerrari]

115. Yes. And arguably, the native population here are Latinos.

:)

And for you to dismiss the rising tide of hatred toward Latino immigrants is beyond disgusting.

And, I never limited my support to immigrants of Mexican extraction although clearly, in your mind, we are all Maria.

[Romulox]

117. Can't you just discuss without imputing some vile motive in EVERY post?

I post something halfway cogent, and every response is just some half-assed insinuation that whomever dares to disagree with you is a racist. It's tiresome, and a bully tactic.

"And, I never limited my support to immigrants of Mexican extraction although clearly, in your mind, we are all Maria."

Right. Because we ignore any and all contextual background information in these discussions, such that we can't take notice that the vast majority of latino illegal immigrants in the US are from Mexico.

[EFerrari]

118. This thread was about language, not about those scary brown people.

And no, I will not let you off of the many hooks you've hung yourself on. Call me any name you like. If you have to create some tortured rationale for objecting to Latino immigrants, that's your problem, pal, not mine.

[Romulox]

119. You need to let yourself off the hook

Because I've read many, many, many posts of yours and you don't have a bad word to say about the rise of neo-indentured servitude in this country. Not a peep. And anybody who dares speak up about it is instantly and reflexively shouted down by you as a "racist"!

"Call me any name you like."

The hilarious thing is that nobody has been calling anybody names except for you! :silly:

[EFerrari]

120. I've discussed both the problem of labor in America and

the globalization of capital many, many times here. Lots of peeps.

And there is nothing instant or reflexive about pointing out that your opposition to the dreaded Spanish language will not change the economy you live in or improve the lot of working people.

lol

[Romulox]

122. "Dreaded Spanish"? I was able to read Borges in the original Spanish back in college

I'm not sure I could today, but it was a thrill for me at the time.

I don't dread Spanish in the least. The Spanish issue is a proxy for something bigger: the gutting of American labor.

"will not change the economy you live in or improve the lot of working people."

True, but to be fair, not caring about the lot of working people isn't terribly effective, either.

[EFerrari]

123. You have used Spanish as a metaphor on this thread, not myself.

And you are the one making distinctions among workers on this thread, not myself.

You are the one behaving as if there is an entity "American workers" that can in practice move their cause forward by opposing the very existence of other workers. That will never work. It has never worked and it won't now. If it could have worked, it would have worked back when Reagan was killing unions and granting amnesty. That was twenty years ago and labor is even more demoralized now and with good reason.

The unions that are gaining ground are the unions that make common cause with immigrants. Then there is no place for the vultures to hide -- not behind Spanish or retaking the Southwest or the birthrate or other ridiculous nonsense. If this is really about working people and not racism, the obvious answer is to band together and negotiate as a coalition.

I've had this argument many times and am very comfortable making it. Choose your own adventure.

[Romulox]

125. If you don't feel any special responsibility toward American workers, we are back at square one

"You are the one behaving as if there is an entity "American workers" that can in practice move their cause forward by opposing the very existence of other workers."

This is the language of Left, used to advance the cause of multinational corporations. Because aside from nation-state, multinational corporations are the only actors with enough power to exert their will across international boundaries. The results are apparent: worker's rights are on the retreat in America, and around the world.

"The unions that are gaining ground are the unions that make common cause with immigrants. Then there is no place for the vultures to hide"

There are six billion humans on this earth. There will always be somebody willing to work for cheaper. So how low do we go before you are named as a "racist" by the corporations for saying "too much! you can't treat people this way in this country!"

[EFerrari]

130. Labels don't concern me very much. Sorry.

And it is a mistake not to recognize that this isn't 1945 and that we have to deal with globalization. You may take comfort in nationalism but that warm fuzzy feeling won't feed your family.

If, as you say, workers' rights are being eroded around the world -- an assertion I agree with -- the answer isn't to turn around and attack or punish other workers but to find a way to make labor as protected as capital around the world. You can't build a wall and expect to get the job done. It won't work.

[Lifetimedem]

129. Bingo!

Remember when Cal was discussing giving the undocumented workers drivers licenses?

Some of the rich and famous came out for this "humanitarian " cause...

Ended up that they wanted to be able for their nannies and other household help to be able to driver...

Like so much it was really about THEM not the poor Mexicans

[YvonneCa]

21. My post was about educating children...

...not about open borders.:shrug:

[Romulox]

28. You were speaking about how "selfish" Americans were for not wanting to facilitate this exploitation

By paying for the social services for the children of exploited laborers, we make exploitation profitable. Do you think Tyson foods could afford an all-illegal workforce if it had to pay the cost for the social services for its illegal workforce? Of course not.

So by calling anyone who stands up to big business "selfish" and "afraid", you are spreading the company line, even if unwittingly...

[YvonneCa]

38. You are assuming I support open ...

...borders. Why do you assume that from my post?

[Romulox]

45. I'm not assuming anything. You called Americans who oppose this "selfish" upthread. nt

[YvonneCa]

49. Americans who suppose 'what'...

...? Please be more clear. I'm trying to understand what you are saying.

[Lifetimedem]

32. You are right

The "illegal"immigrants and the ones imported by companies legally are the new slaves.


If we were really humanitarians we would be outraged at the way they are underpaid and overworked.

If we were really humanitarians we would be concerned for our fellow Americans that are displaced in the lower tier of jobs (often the only ones they can do) by this cheap labor.

It is a Republican rush to the bottom, and unfortunately they are doing it with Democratic help.

[Romulox]

34. Remember "compassionate conservatism"? Same deal. nt

[YvonneCa]

42. Welcome to DU...

...Lifetimedem. Interesting statement: "It is a Republican rush to the bottom, and unfortunately they are doing it with Democratic help."


Also interesting that a discussion about educating our children (language curriculum) turns into how Dems are helping Repubs make things worse. And the 'humanitarian' term...from secular humanist, a la Bill O'Reilly?

[Romulox]

46. Oh brother. "Humanitarian" is not a word invented by Bill O'Reilly.

:eyes:

[YvonneCa]

51. That's true...

...but I never used that word. What do you meant when you say that?

[Romulox]

54. "Humanitarian aid" = 3,000,000 hits on google.

Jesus. Now people with basic vocabulary are suspect. :eyes:

[YvonneCa]

57. Someone else's definition...

...still doesn't answer my question.

[Romulox]

59. "Humanitarian" is a word I would expect any teenager to know.

Quit trying to make your ignorance my problem.

Btw, you are probably thinking of the word: HUMANIST, which O'Reilly uses in the construction "secular humanist". Neither this word, nor this phrase is one I would use.

But "humanitarian" means of or having to do with consideration of human need. It's a word you should know.

[YvonneCa]

64. Your post...

...

Open borders are about CHEAP LABOR and undercutting US workers
You can pretend that this is about some sort of humanist ideals if you wish, but rest assured: the open border situation is nothing much more than the new indentured servitude, feeding the demands for ever cheaper labor, willing to toil in ever worse conditions.

Cargill, ADM, Tyson Foods, Hebrew National et al. are always thrilled at whatever support they can get from the Left in their quest to circumvent US labor and safety laws.


>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

What did you mean?

[Romulox]

68. Mea culpa. I meant "humanitarian".

"Humanist" is synonymous to "humanitarian" in the sense that I used it, btw. So the usage is perfectly correct.

But the word has picked up the taint of O'Reilly in his construction: "secular humanist", and therefore I tend to shy away from using it consciously. I don't know what he means by it, but I think that I am one. :hi:

[YvonneCa]

70. Me, too...

...and that helps with understanding. :hi:

[Lifetimedem]

128. I am a grandmother

So my vocabulary might be a generation behind

[YvonneCa]

133. So am ...

...I :7

[KamaAina]

19. Un homme qui parle deux langues vaut deux hommes

a Cajun saying: "A man (or woman, presumably) who speaks two languages is worth two men (people)."

[JimmyJubes]

26. My favorite was when Tim Russert Ended Goliani's bid for president

"You are for English Only yet you put up advertisements in Spanish in Florida."

One of the many gems of that interview.
I thank God for Time Russert everyday.

[Lifetimedem]

31. Unlike most nations

Americans do not share a common genetic heritage or nationality. One of the things that binds us together as a nation is a common language. If every immigrant into this nation continued to speak his natural language we would become a very balkanized people unable and unwilling to go outside our own little community.

Imagine a country that was broken up into communities that could not communicate with each other.


I resented being told that my children should learn Spanish so they can communicate with hispanic immigrants..

I happen to have a daughter in law that is a Korean immigrant. She came as a child and speaks perfect English, but her grandmother really struggles with English, should she demand that everyone speak Korean so they can talk to her? Should the stores and businesses list Korean as one of the language option?


I encourage my son to learn Korean and to make sure his daughter do as well, because I do believe that it is important to be bi or tri lingual.BUT please do not
dictate that language to me.

Immigrants need to learn to read, write and speak English, that is the most important thing they can do to help their children to succeed in this country.

[YvonneCa]

47. You are missing the point of this thread...

...probably due to the title (which I changed to get someone to read my OP).


This is NOT a discussion of English Only versus Status Quo.

This is NOT a discussion about 'open borders' or 'broken borders' a la Lou Dobbs.

This is NOT a discussion of 'secular humanism' a la Bill O'Reilly.


This discussion IS about whether Barack Obama GOOFED by saying children should know a second language...giving Spanish as an example of a second language. It's a discussion about educating our children for THEIR future, and whether multiple languages should be a part of that. I think it should, and I guess that Obama does, too.

No one said you shouldn't choose the language for children to learn, or that they should not also learn English.


Please re-read my post. Thanks! :)

[bean fidhleir]

100. "should children know a second language"

I myself think kids should grow up with several languages. I had 2 languages in childhood and they came easy...the ones I got in adulthood were very difficult by comparison!

I think a broad selection would be good: Chinese and Japanese, because they have very little in common apart from their use of Chinese characters for writing; Russian or Latin because they're about the best surviving examples of strongly-agglutinating Indo-Euro languages, Zulu (or one of its relatives) or Swahili, Arabic, and the most popular local First Nation language.

[YvonneCa]

134. I agree completely...

...and would even add signing to that list.

[bean fidhleir]

143. Nice catch. ASL (or local equivalent) would be an excellent addition

[YvonneCa]

149. Thanks, it was a suggestion...

...from someone in my family as we were discussing this topic, so I can't take the credit for myself. :)

[Lifetimedem]

127. Of course he did

That was my point

[YvonneCa]

135. What do you think was...

...the mistake he made?

[Winterblues]

36. E Pluribus Unam to all .

:shrug:

[Posteritatis]

131. Bingo - mandatory Latin for everyone! (nt)

[treestar]

43. Languages do not have to be so polarizing

If Spanish becomes the main language of the U.S., it will take enough time that no one will feel any pain personally. Even in Britain, the language has changed over time. The Celts eventually adjusted.

It is just so stupid to get upset about it. In India, they have thousands of languages, yet look how upset we get about hearing a second one.

The languages of a country are the ones that are spoken at the time, just what is. This country's languages are English, Spanish is a somewhat distant second, with a few French speaking people, and the Native American languages.

It's just the fact for today. Who knows, 300 years from now it might be English and Hindi :rofl: But we who are alive today don't have to worry about that.

[Romulox]

48. India was partitioned into two countries based on cultural differences.

:hi:

[Lydia Leftcoast]

102. Religious differences, actually, not linguistic ones

Pakistan was supposed to be a homeland for Muslims, who felt threatened by the Hindu majority in India.

The official language of Pakistan (former West Pakistan) is Urdu, which is basically the same as Hindi, only written in the Arabic alphabet and with a few additional vocabulary words for Islamic concepts.

The official language of Bangladesh (former East Pakistan) is Bengali, exactly the same as the people next door in the Indian state of West Bengal.

[Romulox]

108. The point being is that India is a lousy example of balkanization not being an issue...nt

[YvonneCa]

55. To everyone who has responded to my OP so far...

...THANK YOU. As I said in the last line of my post, imagine four or eight years with a President who inspires discussion on the difficult issues of our time. I believe it would be such a good thing for the country. I think it would help us resolve much of the conflict that currently exists around some of the most difficult issues we face.

This thread is about one complex, but difficult, issue. It is difficult because (JMHO) our childrens' future is involved, it touches on race, ignites fears of all kinds (including terrorism), it affects our personal income and maybe a job choice, and it cuts to who we are as a people and what we value as a country.

It's an important discussion to have...difficult, yes, but VERY important. And if we can do it with civility, I think we can come up with solutions that most of us can live with (YES, WE CAN!)

Thank you, Senator Obama! :)

[bean fidhleir]

56. Spanish-culture overpopulation is the only reason he said that.

If it were the ambitious, excess Chinese or Indians flooding in, he'd have said Putonghua (if he knew the word) or Hindi.

He seems to be like most politicians, who have no problem with overpopulation. It's no skin off his personal nose, after all. So what if it hoicks the unemployment rate for young Black men through the blinking roof - there's always more prisons!

[YvonneCa]

60. Have you read either of Obama's...

...books?

[bean fidhleir]

61. No. I don't enjoy propaganda, so if it's written by a politician, I avoid it.

They'll *say* anything...but it's their actions that tell the real story.

[YvonneCa]

66. You do realize this is Democratic...

...Underground, and Obama is the 'Democratic' candidate, right? :7

[bean fidhleir]

80. Sure. Are we all required to read his books now? They did that in China, as I recall.

Are you suggesting that his emphasis on Spanish is only due to the unique virtues of the language, shared by no other Latin dialect?

[YvonneCa]

83. No one is required to read his, or anyone's books...

...at all. (Although, as a teacher, I sure would like to assign some reading homework, sometimes. :7 ) It's a free country.

It's just that your comments reflect a lack of knowledge about Obama that reading his books might help. Obama spent much of his life trying to LOWER the black inmate population. And he very much has been taking action that reflects what he has always said...in his books and in his life.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

74. You don't enjoy propaganda?

Yet you use terms like "spanish culture overpopulation."

Odd.

[bean fidhleir]

78. It's as carefully-chosen a term as I can manage

Although I suppose I could have further clarified it as "new-world-Spanish-culture", since it doesn't really apply to Spain.

Do you dispute my contention that population is the reason?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

81. The reason for what?

[bean fidhleir]

85. For his mention of Spanish, per the OP

As opposed to some other language.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

86. Spanish is, by far, the second-most common language in the U.S.

After English, due to the "English culture over-population."

Right?

[bean fidhleir]

90. "English culture overpopulation" took place before overpopulation was understood

The Spanish-culture overpopulation process is ongoing now.

There's a vast difference between the two.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

91. That doesn't explain the racist double standard.

:shrug:

[bean fidhleir]

95. I don't know what "racist double standard" you think you see, but I don't

really want to get stuck into a big back-and-forth with you either.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

103. The bit where Hispanics are "overpopulated" but white people aren't.

Even though Hispanics are a minority.

You know, real white supremacist Nazi rhetoric sorta shit.

[bean fidhleir]

121. What a cheap-ass personal attack.

They're coming here because their home countries are overpopulated. They have *too many people*. And they adhere to a misogynistic religion that thinks endless childbirth is a fricking sacrament.

That's the bottom line.

The world is overpopulated, including with White people. And White people have stripped the world like ficking locusts, and have now got non-Whites into the act, too.

But that doesn't change the reality of WHH overpopulation.

[EFerrari]

124. No. "They" are not coming here because of over population.

"They" are coming here because your government screws with theirs, rewards the oligarchies that play ball with American corporate interests. When it's legal, we call that "free trade agreements". When it's not legal, Bush congratulates corporate whores who steal elections for his cronies and with the aid of your tax dollars.

Where do you get this stuff? Bush's manipulation of the last Mexican election was reported. They stole it from a progressive and gave it to a BushCo crony.

[bean fidhleir]

145. Really? So if US elites would quite colluding with their elites, everyone

would have comfortable lives with no poverty?

[EFerrari]

155. Watch the movie, "The War on Democracy".

It's by John Pilger and will never be shown in this country. It documents the purposeful tanking of democracy in Latin America by US business interests. Here is a link that will get you to an on line copy of this censored film:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=405&topic_id=1659&mesg_id=4001

There are many good films on that thread, btw.

Also, the book Confessions of an Economic Hitman documents the very same thing. So does the book Overthrow.

We are taught here that Latin America is somehow unable to get their act together and that's why there is poverty and under development. Nothing can be further from the truth.

Another way to see this: Since Bush et all have been so obsesseed and busy in the Middle East, democracy in Latin America has been thriving. That's good for the people there, good for you and me but very bad for Bush's cronies. That's why he demonizes progressive leaders there.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

126. Anti-catholicism too?

Tsk tsk tsk.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

138. Yes, overpopulation explains the 100 million Chinese and Indians here.

:rofl:

[YvonneCa]

88. So what if he mentioned Spanish, as an example of possible...

...languages for children to learn. It's a good example. Lots of reasons that Spanish could be a choice for kids to learn. He could have mentioned Farsi. Lots of good reasons there, too. He could have mentioned Chinese, German, Japanese, Tagalog....any number of choices. All good examples. He said 'Spanish.' Big deal.

That 'English Only' crowd responds when it's Spanish...it's a bit of overreaction to a nothing example.

[bean fidhleir]

92. Yes, he *could* have mentioned some other language. But he didn't.

I find significance in that.

When I was in school, the science teacher, who was of Mexican heritage and a native speaker, also taught a unit of Spanish. The teacher who taught a unit of French had spent some years in Austria (why that was considered a qualification I'm sure I'll never know). She mostly taught English. We didn't have anything else on offer.

The significant part was that nobody would have "mentioned" Spanish then. Taking a foreign language was considered "good for you", but mostly to give you a leg up if you were one of those going on to university (it was very much a working-class school and few besides those with scholarships were able to go on). So what got "mentioned" was the idea that taking a foreign language would be good, not that taking Spanish (or French) would be good.

[YvonneCa]

82. Explain your concerns about...

"over population", or "population is the reason". The reason for what?

[bean fidhleir]

89. the reason for him choosing Spanish as the language of choice

As to my concerns about overpopulation, they're simple: Earth is overpopulated with humans. The clearest evidence is our ongoing genocide of non-humans and the deforestation whose side-effect (deforested Earth's inability to sequester enough carbon) is ramping up to kill us all. That evidence is just *not* controvertable.

The Western-Hemisphere-Spanish-culture people are flooding in to the US. This is also not controvertable. The Census has the numbers: they are already more numerous than the African-origin people who've been here as long as the European-origin invaders. They are much more numerous than the non-Hispanic-culture aboriginal peoples who were here first. Their birthrate is the highest of any ethnic group: 2 or 2.5 times higher (I don't completely remember) than the next highest. Some of them brag about taking over the United States (perhaps Canada, too). This is a *disaster* in the making.

I speak only for myself, of course, but in my view the only people that have any ethical standing to take over the US are the "redskin" descendents of survivors of White genocide. And there shouldn't be any "taking over" at all - we who identify as White have a huge ethical responsibility to work toward a "full democracy", namely one that meets the needs of all, not one that encourages "population war" by meeting only the needs of the current majority and CERTAINLY not the current sham democracy that meets only the needs of the few.

[EFerrari]

99. We are not being invaded by Spain.

lol

And, the birth rate among any group goes down as the infant mortality rate goes down.

And the claim that Hispanics brag about retaking the Southwest is a meme pushed by white supremacists with no basis in reality.

And, there are Latinos in every color of the rainbow, white, brown, black.

Good grief.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

106. Right, I know someone who married a Mexican immigrant, and

when he was younger he had red hair and blue eyes. In fact, the first time I saw Rick Astley on TV, I thought, "Sure looks like José."

And anyone who has lived on the East Coast knows how many people in Puerto Rico, Cuba, the Dominican Republic, Panama, and Nicaragua have African ancestry.

[EFerrari]

109. Our family dinners look like the UN. And that's just my mom's people.

Once I was in line at the DMV. There was a white guy and a Latino looking guy ahead of me. The clerk kept speaking English to the white guy, who nodded politely and turned to his American friend for a translation. It was classic. :)

[bean fidhleir]

146. It feels both difficult and worthless to respond to someone who

uses non-sequitur slogans. You're usually better than that. Is this such a hot-button issue for you?

[EFerrari]

152. There is not a single slogan in that post.

What are you referring to?

[LanternWaste]

113. And they are about as numerous and as ineffective

"Some of them brag about taking over the United States"

And they are about as numerous and even less effective than the Minutemen "guarding" us. About as numerous and less effective than the TX secession movement (also a joke). About as numerous and less effective than those who cry "civil war" at the drop of hat. All of the above are jokes. Known to be jokes. And shouldn't be seen as anything other than jokes.


Why people keep raising that same, tired, card-stock point I'll never know (outside of the most basic and obvious reason, that is...).

[EFerrari]

116. I don't know. If I were you, I'd look out for lawn mowers and strollers.

We insurgents can be very, very sneaky.

:rofl:

[YvonneCa]

136. ...

...:7

[EFerrari]

139. I know you were asking a question about Obama's comment

but what this thread made clear to me is that invoking Latino culture -- which really is the melting pot of the Americas in terms of "race" "color" or creed, strikes so much fear in the hearts of some people that they can't think, read or respond.

Next time, I'd use Old Low Norse. :)

[YvonneCa]

147. I posted the OP twice...

...with a better title, and it sank...both times. This title was kind of an experiment...to see if anyone would read the post. I DO think it made my OP more unclear, though.

I agree with you that fear is involved. I think that's why some say so loudly that what Obama said was a mistake...a 'political mistake.' He stirred up strong emotions. But I think it is a presidential SKILL he has...to stir debate about topics that our nation must discuss and deal with. The irrational fear around our differences needs to be overcome.


Obama is a genius! :patriot:

[EFerrari]

154. He is an adept and for such a young man, remarkable in that way.

:)

[YvonneCa]

137. You sound...

...fearful.

[bean fidhleir]

144. I suppose I am, really.

I'm nearly 70, so my stake as an individual in the oncoming disaster is (probably) small.

But I feel a sense of kinship with other humans, and with the non-human victims of our genocial overpopulation.

Wealth is power; poverty is powerlessness. That's a statement of crude fact that I hope no one would be silly enough to try to dispute.

So if I had a hundred million dollars, I would be very powerful. I could get entry into contexts and make things happen in ways that are impossible to a non-wealthy person.

But if I gave away that wealth to a million needy people (and surely there are a million people within my reach for whom $100 would be food for the kids, a vital car repair, the missing piece of the rent, etc) it would not change their poverty or the greedy system that keeps them poor and powerless, but it would have the effect of making me poor and powerless too.

I see immigration and the exportation of jobs as a forced version of that kind of giveaway. We are made to "donate" our wealth and power to the "less fortunate" so that they can have a "better life". And if we don't want to do it, because we know we impoverish ourselves in the process, there's some arsehole provocateur ready to leap up and call us racists.

It's not a very tight analogy, of course, because we've rarely been models of clear thinking or class solidarity - our willingness to buy whatever or whoever the MSM wants to sell us is embarrassing evidence for that. But what's true is that as long as we do have wealth and power as individual working people, we have a chance of solidarity and multiplying our power.

But once we've been made poor and powerless, solidarity won't mean much. Then we'll be in the same place the people are in Honduras, Guatamala, Mexico, and all the other countries from which people flee. Hell, we've already got people talking about fleeing the US, you've seen that. What does that tell you? It tells me that we're already well down the road to being just a larger third-world banana dictatorship.

So I'm against immigration and the exportation of jobs. I think we should be working on using what remains of our wealth and political muscle -once the strongest in the world- to build class solidarity here, so we can bring ourselves at least back up to current European standards (imagine that - people who were once devastated by war, left with nothing, now enjoy better lives than we have. Makes you wonder, doesn't it? Or doesn't it?).

Once we've built our strength back up, we can start helping others. But if we don't build our strength up, if we allow ourselves to be anesthetized by pseudo-liberal dreck while the cheap-labor elites bleed us dry, we're going to end up with nothing at all.

[YvonneCa]

148. Thank you for this VERY honest...

...post. It amazes me...always...that once people start to discuss divisive issues (like the one in this thread :7 ) and REALLY get their opinions expressed, I hear more commonalities than differences. This post of yours is an example of that.

As I was reading it, I was surprised that we agree on many things. Some of what we discussed upthread seemed the opposite. The biggest thing I hear from you that we have in common is that we are concerned for what is happening in our country and want to fix it. I think I might be just a little less fearful than you are :7 but I agree with you on the idea that people in poverty have a hard time, need all the help they can get, and I don't want to see our beautiful USA slip in world standing or standard of living any more than we already have.


Question: Do you think Obama understands what is needed to turn things around. Honestly...I really do. And I'm not a kid with no experience for Obama...I'm an almost 60 year old grandma. :) I think he gets the problem, draws in previously uninvolved citizens of all ages, and has the support of a progressive chunk of the "establishment' D.C. people to get things done. What do you think?

[bean fidhleir]

150. Do I think Obama understands? Sure. I'd bet money on it.

Do I think he'll do anything about it? I wish I did. I've tried to believe it. But it's like believing in life after death - no matter how much I want to believe, it's just too hard and I can't do it without abandoning my lifetime devotion to evidence-based reasoning.

[YvonneCa]

151. In my family...

...some feel as you do. It's like they've been 'burned' to many times, so even though they hope we will be able to do what is needed, they are doubtful.

I guess we'll have to wait and see. It's good to know...if he succeeds...we'll all have a little more in common. :)

[EFerrari]

153. This is the thing, bean. "All the places people flee from"

are those places where American corporate interests have descended like locusts. There is nothing inherently undemocratic in Guatemala -- on the contrary. US business interests had to work very hard to destroy that democracy so they could manipulate the government and suck out the resources of that country like the vampires they are.

And we are now a much larger Guatemala because with globalization, we are being treated here at home just as citizens of Mexico, Guatemala and Colombia have always been treated. Our elections are dirty, our media is dishonest and our unions have all but been destroyed. College is increasingly for the wealthy as is health care -- as are even basic emergency services.

The idea that simply by keeping immigrants out we will restore our economy is simply mistaken. We know that because we have lost our manufacturing base and are now losing jobs in other sectors as well. It will profit American workers not a whit to isolate themselves because what one seeks to protect in that manner, we can call it middle class life, is already gone to the extent that it ever existed.

I understand the reasons why people are against immigration and outsourcing. But, to my mind, those two things are more the consequence of much more basic problems than they are the founding problems in themselves.