Corporations should be able to do anything they want, with full immunity

[Bake]

That's the logical end result of granting them civil immunity through FISA. I've seen the argument countless times, right here on DU, that civil immunity is a GOOD thing, because if the telcoms get bankrupted by all these civil judgments, look at all the jobs that will be lost.

By that logic, we should extend immunity to *all* corporations, not just the telcoms. Other corporations provide jobs too. I mean, if Big Lawn Mower Company has to pay these awful civil judgments every time one of their mower blades flies off and cuts somebody's leg off because there's no safety shield, they'll go bankrupt and people will lose their jobs! If Big Pharma gets sued every time they rush a new drug to market on the basis of shaky research testing, and it kills a bunch of people, they'll go bankrupt and people will lose their jobs!

:sarcasm:

The threat of civil liability - MONEY DAMAGES - is the one thing that keeps corporations from screwing you worse than they already do.

Remember that.

Bake

[PeaceNikki]

1. .

[Maddy McCall]

2. K/R

Why some DUers can't understand this, or worse, excuse this, I do not know....

[tularetom]

3. You have just made a statement of fact

Corporations in fact are able to do anything they want with full immunity. And that truth will be ratified time and again by a supreme court consisting of nine Scalias should John McCain be elected president. For those on DU who are trashing Obama for wanting to get elected, please keep that in mind.

[Bake]

5. Not completely. Tort reform isn't yet complete.

But full immunity? Now that's a different story.

And by the way, I realize that in my OP I limited my examples to product liability (not surprising, as that's my practice area). But it's not just product liability. Oh, no. Imagine the dire consequences, and the lost jobs, if Big Bank/Brokerage had to pay out huge judgments just because it STOLE YOUR MONEY while its CEO took lavish bonuses! Oh, the horror.

Really, I can sum it up with one word. E-N-R-O-N.

Never forget it.

Bake

[frog92969]

I don't see Obama's name in the OP

Just the truth about a bad bill that should have never been voted on.

[Bake]

8. We all know which Dems voted in favor of it, when it counted.

I'm just commenting on the possible unforeseen consequences.

Bake

[frog92969]

11. And you made a good point, many have been focusing on

privacy too much to realize we got hit with a double whammy.
Citizens have just been knocked down one more peg on the relevancy scale where money's concerned.

[KansDem]

4. That was essentially the argument for bailing out Chrysler in 1980

If I recall correctly, the number "600,000" was thrown around as the number of workers who would lose their jobs. This included Chrysler workers and any peripheral business that could be considered dependent on Chrysler.

Yeah, corporations can become so big that they have to stay in business, regardless of how criminal* their CEOs are...

on edit: * or incompetent...

[Bake]

7. A bailout is one thing. Civil immunity is yet another.

Although that's a good example.

Pukes, by the way, aren't REALLY "capitalists." A true capitalist would have said "Screw 'em" in response to your Chrysler example. The market is COLDLY EFFICIENT.

Again, though, immunity is a totally different animal.

Bake

[readmoreoften]

6. I'm telling on you. Don't you know the Democrats have a plan? Also, corporations are good.

Spying is okay too. If it gets too bad, Obama will fix it, because in my heart I think he's a nice person who for some mysterious reason isn't courageous or progressive now, but will suddenly whip out his "true self" if we only work to get him elected. Because corporations, especially media corporations like AT&T, have no power over you once you're the president. Also the Pentagon, CIA/DIA black ops have no power over you either.

It'll all be okay because I value being a positive person and I gain a rhetorical advantage by posing as a positive thinker.

[Donnachaidh]

15. you forgot your sarcasm thingie

at least I hope you forgot it. :eyes:

[readmoreoften]

18. Hard to tell these days, isn't it?

[CrispyQ]

19. ...

:rofl:

[burythehatchet]

9. not quite

the reasons that bad corporate entities violate our trust is that their managers and decision makers know that the corporate veil protects them from personal liability.

[Bake]

10. I've got no problem with the corporate veil, per se.

It can be pierced under the right circumstances. There are also provisions for holding corporations, and their officers, criminally liable -- but that is so rare we can count the examples on one hand - Bernie Ebbers/Worldcom, e.g., Ken Lay/Enron (oh wait, no he wasn't ...).

Civil liability is the really big stick.

Bake

[guruoo]

12. Years ago, a Republican friend told me eliminating consumer protection was part of their end game

In other words, when they're finished,, the only recourse one will have
left if a product kills a member of one's family will be the right to take their business elsewhere.

[Stinky The Clown]

13. Its time for some goddamned reregualtion of these fucking pirates

And that corporate personhood? Fuck that, too.

And that corporate veil? Pull that sucker back and expose the faces of the faceless ratfuckers who are the top managers.

And those corporate 'donations' to political candidates? Criminalize them. Give a dine, go to jail. Take a dime, go to jail.

Bastards.

[Bake]

28. Left to its own devices, you cannot trust business to do the RIGHT THING.

They'll screw you over, every time.

Bake

[robinlynne]

14. You're late. They already ahve full immunity. I was listening yesterday to hearings about the

dangerous katrina trailers. The owners of one of the companies who made the trailers full of formaldehyde for 100k each was crying, literally, syaing he was just doing his best to help katrina victims. the gov't said "If we prosecute these epople, thery won't want tyo amke trailers the enxt time there is a disaster".
The excact smae argument they used for fisa.
We can't make corporations mad, or they won't provide us with services (at an exorbitant price, and screwing citiens in the process)...

That seems to be the new law.

[readmoreoften]

23. The new law is that there is no law. So don't break the new law.

[Bake]

25. Katrina trailers - EXCELLENT EXAMPLE.

Now Congress is saying maybe they shouldn't be subjected to liability; after all, they were just trying to help the hurricane victims. Bullshit. They were doing what corporations do: trying to sell the death traps to the government and make a quick buck as cheaply as possible.

"Oh, but if we let victims SUE them, people will lose their jobs and they might not make the trailers the next time we need them."

There. You. Go. As Dizzy Dean used to say, "You seen it on yer screen!"

Bake

[Alexander]

16. Civil immunity is different from criminal immunity.

Civil - you get fined.

Criminal - you go to jail.

There is nothing in the FISA legislation preventing President Obama and Attorney General Edwards from criminally prosecuting BushCo.

[Bake]

26. Close. Civil - you pay money damages to your victims.

And possibly, the the case of the SEC and a few other regulators, a civil fine.

Corporations can be held criminally liable, with a range of penalties. Officers and/or directors can be sent to jail. The corp can be dissolved. But that, as I pointed out above, very rarely happens. So rarely that when it does (e.g., Enron, Worldcom, etc.) it's front-page news.

And no, there is nothing in the new FISA bill that prevents criminal prosecution, i.e., no criminal immunity. But don't think Bushie Boy will leave office without blanket pardoning them. And don't even hope that OUR Dems will have the spine to go after them criminally - you'll only be disappointed.

Bake

[Occulus]

31. Name the last time a corporation of any size "went to jail".

NOT employees, but the corporation itself.

Take your time.

[lonestarnot]

17. And the "Americans are litigious" statement is a lie and we know it!

[Bake]

27. If you want to know who really clogs up the dockets, it's the corporations

Suing one another. Go to ATLA's web page to see the documentation. They want the courthouses to be their own private playgrounds.

Bake

[Breeze54]

20. You sound like John Edwards!!

:thumbsup: :thumbsup:


:kick: & Recommended

[Bake]

29. Thanks. Edwards was, in fact, my first choice this cycle.

At least he was my first choice among people who were actually RUNNING. (Where oh where were you, Al?)

Bake

[Indenturedebtor]

21. Why do you hate the working man?

Don't you know that the megacorporation is the root of all jobs? If they didn't provide service no one would!

Don't you remember that before Walmart no one could buy a refrigerator?

[leftofthedial]

22. Immunity to all corporations, retroactively and in perpetuity

for ANY acts they may have or may commit.

It's the American way and anyone who disagrees is a BAD DEMOCRAT FROM THE FAR LEFT FRINGE!

[Bake]

30. If I'm the "fringe" that's pretty scary

Because that means the fabric of the nation has really, really unraveled!

Bake

[paparush]

24. Why do you hate Billionaire CEO's?

They're just trying to feed their families. I mean, c'mon, what's 7 or 8 mansions between friends?