Must one think the American dream is dead in order to be a Progressive?

[BigDaddy44]

I ask this as a very serious question. See the linked thread.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x3592611

Anyone who dares challenge the notion that the American dream is dead is either derided as a freeper, or told that their success can be attributed to dumb luck and not much else. The general sense I get from reading the posts is that America is a depressing, forlorn place where everyone is literally hanging on for dear life, and barely avoiding falling into the abyss.

Quite frankly, its a very depressing thread.

Here's my take. I love America. I think its a great place. I wouldn't want to live anywhere else. I think the current president has done great harm, but that the underlying goodness and strength of the American people will always overcome evil. I also believe the American dream is alive and well, and that with hard work and good decisions, the opportunity to live an extraordinary life is available to all of us.

I may be in the minority, but I refuse to conform to the notion that in order to be a progressive, one must be convinced that we all live in some hell hole. Am I totally alone on this?

[Fumesucker]

1. Not dead... Just on life support.

With a not particularly positive prognosis.

[Angela Shelley]

2. Who, what, where is the EVIL

which Americans must overcome?

What about using goodness and strength to make logical decisions?

[Fumesucker]

4. Ahem...

[Angela Shelley]

5. Get the fly swatter and crush that ugly bug on my screen!

:grr:

[Pale Blue Dot]

3. In my opinion, to be a progressive means to base desicions off of facts, not emotion.

Just because you love America does not mean it isn't dying. In fact, the data shows that it is. I don't mean to be flippant, and I know people will strongly disagree with me, but one of the reasons why we are at this point is because good people like you do not want to believe it's happening.

As progressives, we must live in reality, not fantasy. The reality is that things are very, very bad right now and they're about to get much worse.

I invite you to visit the Stock Market Watch thread in LBN, where information about the economy is compiled daily.

[BigDaddy44]

6. I pay very close attention to the stock market

As I have a considerable amount of money there. Its down roughly 20% from its high. During 1973-1974, it dropped 50%. Thats reality. Things have been much worse in the past. Will they get worse? Perhaps. I don't know. Neither do you. Are you shorting the market? If you're positive things will get worse, why not?

I'm not deluded. I know whats happening. So what should good people like me do? Wallow in the muck? Beat my chest and howl at the moon? I choose to have an optimistic spirit and press forward. I work hard, then go home and kiss my wife, have fun with the kids, and enjoy time with friends and family.

[Angela Shelley]

7. Good people should work hard, save their money,

and take a vacation to Germany for Oktoberfest!

:toast:

[annabanana]

32. Are your regular monthly expenses covered by the

dividends those investments provide? Is the biggest financial mistake you could make the expenditure of "principle"?

Try to imagine functioning today when EVERY DIME YOU GET YOUR HANDS ON is "principle".

The market really isn't much of a much to most people in America.

[fasttense]

8. I've been a progressive or liberal since I was 18.

I'm fairly old now - one of those baby boomers. Up until 2006, I never thought the American dream was dead. It's just that hyperinflation of energy prices, skyrocketing food price, unimaginable numbers of foreclosures, a 40% drop in the dollar's value and the falling stock market made me realize my children will have a very difficult life.

I worked as a waitress and paid for college. My children will not have that chance. For them the American dream is a tiny bubble barely visible on the horizon. For children of poorer parents it is dead. So how many people have to lose hope before the American dream dies?

This guy says it better than I. It's the seething.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=103&topic_id=370563&mesg_id=370563

[BigDaddy44]

10. So in the past.....

Children of poor parents have risen from poverty to do amazing things. Its happened time and time again.

Is it your contention those days are over? That a child of poor parents today has zero chance of making something of themselves and living an extraordinary life?

[fasttense]

13. A lucky few, but the majority of those poor children

from those poor homes - the vast majority - remained poor unless they got help.

My father lived through the events described in the "Grapes of Wrath". Talk about dirt poor, you can not imagine the poverty he suffered. But he went to college because the government gave him the GI bill. He went on to become one of a handful of satellite timing experts in the world.

I'm saying that unless we help these poor children, they have no chance at the American Dream. And I don't see anyone offering much to them right now.

[dawgman]

9. I think that one must acknowledge that the American Dream

of upward mobility, pulling oneself up by the bootstraps and succeeding based on one's own merits never existed.

It was largely bullshit from the beginning. The vast majority of people will do just a little worse than the generation previous.

A progressive should acknowledge this because so much of what we fight for is to change the 232 year pattern. Universal health care, affordable and quality education, social security and all the safety net programs are all means of combating the fact that the American Dream never existed. They are all means of making the American Dream a reality.

That is what should drive a progressive.

[Jim__]

11. Any realist has to acknowledge that the American Dream is being severely threatened.

People with a lot of power are working hard to permanently secure that power. Corporations are trying to sew up access to water and food. If they succeed, and they're well on the way, the American Dream will be dead.

[mmonk]

12. No but one needs to be aware of where we are and not take

the things currently going on and are being taken away as only a temporary nuisance because of a belief things will go back to at least where they were before on some sort of blind faith or myth of American righteousness or ballot box silver bullet.

[lunatica]

14. It depends on how you define the American Dream

I'm a progressive who believes that true progress is when decisions are made for the greater good of all the citizens. That means the poorest, the least able to cope, the fragile elderly and the sick should be cared for and given opportunities to live the extraordinary life you refer to. It means sharing the wealth and sharing the benefits. There's no reason why a few should have more at the expense of the many. There's plenty for everyone.

But some believe the American Dream is about personal wealth, about acquiring power and being valued on a scale of consumerism. Those who have the most expensive, the most lavish, the most and the best and the biggest are considered to be more worthy than those who never get a chance to break away from grinding poverty through the lack of opportunities to advance themselves. It's a myth to say the poor are given the same opportunities as anyone else. The schools in the poor communities in this country are grossly underfunded and neglected.

As a progressive I believe health care should be universal. Everyone deserves to get the best medical treatment they can just because that's the right way of things.

And as a progressive I believe the American Dream can be the World Dream, because we are all the same, no matter how much some Americans think they're superior to the rest of the people on this planet. And absolutely everything I believe can be done, so don't bother to tell me it can't. The reason it isn't done is because people who measure their lives by that consumerism scale have chosen not to do it.

[Angela Shelley]

17. I agree, thanks for your comments.

[fishwax]

15. what a silly question

:eyes:

[Stinky The Clown]

16. I happen to agree with you ............

..... even though I **do** think the country is in the deepest shit it has been in since at least The Great Depression. But we made it back from that and we'll make it back from this ..... maybe.

I see reasons to be optimistic, but they may still be a good way into the future. I think there is great wealth to be made as we move from an oil economy to a (whatever becomes the new) alternative energy economy. Think of the move from whale oil, when that got prohibitively expensive, to petroleum. We are about to see that sort of once-in-a-hundred-years paradigm shift again.

I can see the weak dollar helping us become an exporting economy again. I can see that same weak dollar actually creating jobs to fill the demand for the (newly affordable, again) Made in America products worldwide.

Politically, I think Obama represents the first step in a generational change in the political bent of this country. Not that he caused it, but that he will be the first of a series of new Democratic leaders who step in to fill the void of the now discredited Repubican philosophy. I don't see it playing out as it did with the long lasting liberalism of one man - Roosevelt - but I do see it as a start of a series of leaders that, collectively, will eclipse the Roosevelt era.

I see single payer, universal health care in the not-too-distant future. Not in the next 5 years, probably, but soon after that. The country is ready for it. We just need the leadership to make it happen. That leadership will come, not from the president, but from the people, through Congress. The president, whoever it is, will be forced to follow, and then try to *appear* as if he's leading.

There will be some short term pain. But there *will* be long term gain. However, being on the north side of 60 myself, I may not see much of it.

[johnlucas]

18. American Dream never existed

The notion is some brainwashing done 100 years ago to make poor people more comfortable with their poverty as the greedy ones got richer.

Never buy into clichés, labels, and memes like Middle Class, American Dream, Liberal, Conservative, Trickle-Down Economics, Free Market, #1 Country, Superpower, and stuff like that.

The words you use shape the views you have. By not buying into prefabricated labels and clichés you might be able to see the truth of how things really go.

America is not the worse in the world when it comes to going from poor to rich but trust me there was NEVER a such thing as an American Dream except in propaganda.

Keyword: Dream

John Lucas

[dawgman]

19. That is exactly what I was saying above.

Well done for seeing through the bullshit. By and large our status is pre-determined by the lottery of birth and parents.

Sad but true, the American Dream is a construct to make the oppressed feel artificially empowered.

[BigDaddy44]

22. That is simply not true

In other societies (very specificially India, and until recently the UK), birth really did determine the outcome of your life, and it was virtually impossible to move to a higher standard of living or to a higher class.

In the US, study after study has shown that the vast majority of wealthy individuals did NOT inherit their wealth. They earned it.

http://mjperry.blogspot.com/2008/04/inheritance-is-not-main-driver-of.html

You can continue spouting platitudes about our status being pre-determined by the lottery of birth and parents, but the data just doesn't back it up.

The ability to significantly change your station in life still exists, and is in fact the basis of the American dream.

[Ichingcarpenter]

27. That's a crap study and speaks of not the general population but a

small minority being millionares

[dawgman]

30. That is exactly right.

There is always an exception to the rule. Which it took into account when I stated "the vast majority." Notice I did not say "all."

[dawgman]

29. Give me some proof other than a blog.

My father actually wrote his MPA thesis on this subject, and the fact of the matter is that there is very little upward mobility in this country. And yes, indeed, the whole world faces this problem as well, but that is far from a counter argument. The established elite remain the established elite. Some people made the jump from working middle class to upper middle class at one time due to the ability of their unionized parents gaining more wealth than THEIR parents thanks to the power of collective bargaining but that is about it. Also as the unions are destroyed one by one these modest gains are being reversed.

[Blecht]

33. Read the comments below that blog entry

There are some people with critical-thinking skills (like you) there.

Here's an example:

At 9:47 AM, Anonymous Kevin said...

I think you may be drawing a conclusion that the study may not actually be able to make.

Suppose I have a zero net worth and then suddenly inherit $1,000,000 today. If you ask me next week what the source of the bulk of my wealth is, I'd have to say "inheritance".

Now suppose I invest my $1,000,000 and get a 10% rate of return on it. Within 10 years I have more than doubled my net worth. Ask me then what the number one source of my wealth is and the answer is "investments" because the amount I inherited is now less than the amount of wealth I have built using that inheritance.

Hard to say how much role inheritance plays from this survey.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

52. That's a good point. Some of our most famous "self made" men are really not

Bill Gates got his start with $1 million in seed money from his mom. Donald Trump's dad was a wealthy real estate developer.

In some wealthy families, the parents make it a point to not give their kids a financial leg up. That's all well and good but the kids have already benefited in a thousand tangible and intangible ways from their family background. They have the education, social skills, and connections that a kid who grew up in the ghetto would never have. They know what fork to use at dinner and how to pick a wine or 1000 thread count sheets. Those are things that add up to what is called "social capital". It's a kind of currency that eases one's entree into success.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

20. It's not a dream, it's a fraud.

[Blecht]

21. If you are a Progressive you have critical-thinking skills

And if you apply those critical-think skills, you know that the American Dream is fiction.

A better question than the one in the original topic would be:

If you are a Progressive, do you understand that the American Dream never existed?

And the answer to that question is a resounding "Yes!"

[BigDaddy44]

23. Definition of the American Dream

I don't know if a defintion exists, but mine is the ability to rise above the circumstances of your birth and upbringing, and significantly improve your "lot in life". In many countries this is simply not possible due to caste-like systems. In the US it is absolutely true.

Look at Bill Clinton. He was born to a widow who clearly didn't have much. Look at Hillary Clinton. Born in a working class family. Look at Barack Obama. Born to a teenager with nothing who was shortly thereafter abandoned by her husband.

Examples abound. To say that its fiction is simply wrong.

[Ichingcarpenter]

24. US and Britain are now the lowest on the scale of Social Mobility

In comparison to industrialized nations.

A careful comparison reveals that the USA and Britain are at the bottom with the lowest social mobility. Norway has the greatest social mobility, followed by Denmark, Sweden and Finland. Germany is around the middle of the two extremes, and Canada was found to be much more mobile than the UK.

http://www.lse.ac.uk/collections/pressAndInformationOffice/newsAndEvents/archives/2005/LSE_SuttonTrust_report.htm

[Blecht]

28. Now, now, don't confuse the author of the original post

Don't confuse him with "facts." He's got anecdotal evidence! Clinton! Obama! Abounding examples! That trumps any kind of careful comparison you might come up with!

[LSK]

26. what nonsense! your definition is possible in MANY Countries

You can improve yourself in all of the EU, Russia, Japan, New Zealand, Canada, Australia, and countless other countries.

Your odds of improving yourself in America are actually much less than in those other countries because of no universal healthcare and much more expensive college costs.

Please lets stop living in the 1850s!!!

[Indenturedebtor]

37. Don't forget distribution of wealth, public transportation

Substandard public education, predatory lenders and basic service providers, oppressive legal system, no public daycare system... oh why bother. Everything is fucking substandard here and the sooner people are willing to admit that our country is actually a relative SHITHOLE the sooner we can start fixing things.

[lastliberalintexas]

86. SUBSTANDARD PUBLIC EDUCATION

Someone might have noted that issue sooner than your post, but yours was the first I saw and I can't believe it took 37 posts for someone to bring up the wreck of an education system we have in this country. Probably the single issue that impacts the future of our country the most, and yet people ignore it time and again. I resent the fact that I have to put my child into private school in order to avoid teaching to the tests, I resent the fact that teachers are treated as nothing more than proctors and babysitters, and I resent the fact that most Americans have no idea just how little we actually know. Sad state of affairs, and I am amazed that we still have people willing to go into the profession, given the BS they will have to endure.


As for the OP, I would argue that you have bought into the idea that The Dream should be one of material wealth, rather than the good life lived. Methinks we might all need an updated version of Your Money or Your Life on PBS.

[Runcible Spoon]

51. hahahaha unfortunately there must be the lofty exceptions to support the myth.

no effective lie is 100% pulled from one's ass. Research the necessary characteristics of hegemony, one is the acceptance of the ideological status quo as natural, immutable truth.

[LSK]

25. Can you tell me what exactly is the American Dream???

Becoming Bill Gates? Owning a home? What exactly is it???

[Goblinmonger]

31. The American Dream

has been claimed dead since the turn of the 20th century. Read some regionalist/realist literature. Hell, read Gatsby. I would tend to agree with Fitzgerald, the American Dream, as it is defined by culture, is dead. You can't come here, work really really hard, and make your millions. Are we better than some other places? Sure. Are we worse than some? Sure. Why is that so hard for so many to come to grips with?

[lumberjack_jeff]

34. "the underlying goodness and strength of the American people will always overcome evil"

This is denial speaking. It's demonstrably not true.

People of good faith must fight like hell to prevent evil from winning. Evil is almost always the shortcut for those working toward fulfilled self interest.

What's good about america is not that we're inherently good, it's that we have tools to give good a fighting chance against evil. The fact that we stand idly by while those tools are taken away from us (Wiretap me! Keep me safe!) implies that the prognosis is not good.

I'm pessimistic, but I've decided that structuring ones life based primarily on disaster mitigation is not prudent. I'm investing in college for my kids instead of freeze dried food.

Planting a tree is the ultimate act of optimism. It is prudent to do it even when you're pessimistic about its future.

[old mark]

35. So I guess I'm no progressive, whatever the hell THAT means,

but I still think there are many great things about the US, and it saddens me that evidently so few here think otherwise.

mark

[Indenturedebtor]

36. Have you travelled much?

The American Dream is a bunch of horseshit. 98% of the money in this country goes to 2% of the population. It's not like that in any other developed nation, and when you visit these nations and really spend some time there outside of museums and "hey look at this" tours, you realise that our American lifestyle (even for those who don't live on the brink) is garbage. Life sucks here. Less vacation, longer workweek, fewer holidays, crappy medical system, crappy education, no real retirement safety net, crappy wages, expensive transportation and housing, crappy legal system, shredded constitution.... and on and on and on. It's not just Boosh. Our country has been broken for decades.

Maybe you can remember a time when America wasn't the asshole of the developed world, but I'm nearly 30 and I can't.

[DangerDave921]

38. WOW -- So Depressing and Wrong!

You are way too young to be forming such cynical ideas about the US.

Life sucks here? What does that mean? I have a good life here. Married, two kids, a house in the suburbs. A job I like (don't love but like). Is life hard sometimes? Sure it is. I work hard for my family. But it's not America's fault. Life has always required hard work and sacrafice. It is only because you are so young that you apparently feel like life should be easy -- more money, more vacation time, a shorter work week, etc. It is because America has such bounty that you are under the delusional belief that life sucks now.

Talk to your grandparents about how hard they worked at your age. You'd be surprised. You think it's easier in third world countries today than it is here? There you will see true poverty, true need.

I always respect intelligent criticism of our country. But I can't tolerate whining and griping like a petulant teenager.

[LSK]

43. check it out, there are OTHER countries with people who live in houses

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/forumdisplay.php?f=674

[mrreowwr_kittty]

45. Pull Yourself Up By Your Bootstraps!

:eyes: :puke:

[Indenturedebtor]

46. Don't compare America to a third world country... I wasn't

I have no issue with working hard. I do work very hard. I've spent most of the last 4 years working 60-80 hours a week. Who said anything about working hard?

The problem is that here in America we're at the bottom of the developed world in pretty much every category except square footage and cheap plastic goods. If you're rich this is the best place in the world to live! If you're not rich (like most of us) our standard of living is crap.

"Just be glad you're not digging ditches." Is that what you're saying? That's how the worst manager I ever had would try to "motivate" the team when we were told we'd be expected to put in 24+ hours over a holiday weekend after working 50 hours during the week.

I've spent months in different "third world" countries... the biggest lesson? Poverty is relative. When you have food, shelter, family, and healthcare but no TV or house, yet you only work 20 hours a week life isn't so terrible. Go stay in a village in a third world country and spend some time eating, working, and playing with these "poor people" and you might find that many of them actually pity us. Don't pass judgement on their squalor. When your life isn't a miserable daily grind you don't need all the disposable crap that we surround ourselves with.

Most of what you own is a productivity tool. Work pod, transportation pod, sleep pod, entertainment pod, feeding pod. You don't need a microwave when you have 6 hours a day to sit around with your kids stirring a pot of food after 2 hours of work in a garden, and 2 hours spent selling yams in the market. You spend your day making money to maintain the crap that allows you to stay just psychologically stable enough, and have enough time so that you can work more making some asshole who works 6 hours a week richer.

Bah I digress... we live a "first world" lifestyle, and whatever that trade off is as compared to a "third world" lifestyle - we have the ass end of the stick in the developed world by every measurable statistic. Progressives seek a better deal. Otherwise what is the point?

[mrreowwr_kittty]

48. It's all about quality of life. Not quantity of "stuff".

Here's a nice article about consumption and working. It talks about the very successful experiment the Kellogg company did with a shorter workday. They reduced the work shift from 8 to 6 hours. People made less money but enjoyed life more. Of course, the hardasses had to come in and put a stop to it.

http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2008/05/03/8686/

[Indenturedebtor]

54. That article was wonderful. Thank you so much

It's always good to read the truths of your own heart written more eloquently by another.

[Common Sense Party]

41. So, basically you're saying America sucks because the government

doesn't give us everything?

[LSK]

44. black and white much?

[Indenturedebtor]

47. Not at all.

America sucks quite simply because we work more and harder than any other people on the planet, but we allow the rich and powerful to suck up all of the fruits of our labor. THAT's the problem. We are the most productive people on the entire planet but we enjoy the fruits of our labor less than any other developed country.

If you think that's a good deal... then quite plainly you sir are a moron.

[Common Sense Party]

82. I don't think we work more or harder than most people in third

world countries. We're more productive, yes, due to advanced technology and infrastructure.

Among developed countries, the Japanese work harder than we do.

I'm just curious what your "solution" is to America's suckiness. How do you propose we stop the rich and powerful from sucking up the fruits of our labor?

I'm no moron. I just don't agree with your opinion.

[Indenturedebtor]

84. Actually you're wrong about Japan here's a link

GENEVA (ILO News) - US workers put in the longest hours on the job in industrialized nations, clocking up nearly 2,000 hours per capita in 1997, the equivalent of almost two working weeks more than their counterparts in Japan where annual hours worked have been gradually declining since 1980, according to a new statistical study * of global labour trends published by the International Labour Office (ILO).

http://www.ilo.org/global/About_the_ILO/Media_and_public_information/Press_releases/lang--en/WCMS_071326/index.htm

Further our productivity is also due to excessive hours worked and "management tools" etc. How many lunches have you worked through without extra pay? I can't even count.

One possible solution would be to revolt heh. Or just take their MSM toy away from them, get lobbyist money out of government, remove corporate personhood, index the minimum wage to inflation, institute true national healthcare, cut back our military, tax the rich more, etc etc etc.

[Greyhound]

85. Notice the point of comparison is always the "third world"?

Couldn't be because we are the bottom of the barrel compared to our peer, could it?

Never mention that others we are supposed compete with have cost free education, health care, etc.

They also invariably ignore the shorter work week, better benefits, 300% more vacation time, etc.

[Indenturedebtor]

89. Yes to do otherwise is very difficult on the psyche

You spend your entire childhood and adolescence hearing about how wonderful we have it and having patriotism drilled into your brain. Then you take a look at the wider world and start to look at how crappy our system is and it's very depressing. So much easier to just point at people who have it worse than you and say "at least we're not them!".

It was extremely disturbing to me when I started travelling out of the country to see other nation's media holding us up as an example of how not to handle everything from crime, to education, to politics, to healthcare, etc. We have a LOT of work to do. The first step is recognizing that we have a LOT of work to do.

[BigDaddy44]

90. "the wider world and start to look at how crappy our system is"

Then I have a question.

Why are people still clamoring to get into the USA (legally or illegally). If our system is so crappy, how come there's a waiting list to get into the country, and millions around the world still aspire to come to the United States? Are they ignorant? Deluded? If things are as bad as you say, I can't imagine why anyone would want to come here.

[Indenturedebtor]

94. Here's a link

"Nearly half of all new legal immigrants came from just ten countries.
The top countries of birth for immigrants in FY 2005 were Mexico (161,445), India (84,681), China (69,967), the Philippines (60,748), Cuba (36,261), Vietnam (32,784), the Dominican Republic (27,504), Korea (26,562), Colombia (25,571), and Ukraine (22,761). Ukraine was a new addition to the list of top ten sending countries of new LPRs, while El Salvador fell out of the top ten. The number of legal immigrants from Mexico declined 8.0 percent (13,966) from the number in FY 2004 and the number from the Dominican Republic declined 9.8 percent (3,002)."

http://www.migrationpolicy.org/pubs/FS13_immigration_US_2006.pdf

I didn't say that there aren't places that are worse off. But how many of the countries above are developed countries?

Furthermore most people outside of the US who have never been here think that everyone lives like Jerry Seinfeld or spends their days in an episode of Friends. How many people spend years researching the differences between one country and another before they decide to move there. They have a general opinion of a place and they set about going there.

Hell it's hard even living here to run into real numbers and real facts that highlight our deeper problems. Most people wouldn't believe you no matter how many facts you presented them with. The din of propaganda is so loud they can hear it around the world.

If we want things to improve for us and for our children we have to face the fact that America is not in good shape, and that we need an overhaul of our social contract. The rich are screwing you right now as we speak.

[BigDaddy44]

55. Extensively

Including living overseas.

[Indenturedebtor]

57. So then what are we doing right then? Is it our free and unbiased media?

You know I will say this... America breeds creativity on a crazy scale! And we are some hard working, hard drinking, mo-fo's that aren't scared of a fight. But we don't do society very well... not very well at all :(

[Dreamer Tatum]

65. Three words for you: Fallacy of Composition. Look it up. nt

[Indenturedebtor]

68. Yes that's howthey sell you the "dream"

"If you have more square footage than most of the people in the world, and more plastic goods, then the American way is the best way!" Pfah :eyes:

[Dreamer Tatum]

75. Whatever. I'm allergic to anti-empiricism.

By the 2006 Annual Social and Economic Supplement, households making more than $100K annually were
19% of the population and accounted for 49% of the income. That said, by far the most frequently
occurring household income range is the $100-$150K, with more than 10% of households. The $100-$150K
bucket comprises more than 20% of all income.

Said differently, yes, the rich are extremely rich. But if you exclude from the definition of "rich"
the most frequently occurring income demographic, the rich become fewer in number.

Here's a rough breakdown of income distribution:

0-40K - 42% of all households; 13% of all income
40K-150K - 50% of all households; 58% of all income
150K + - 8% of households, 29% of income


There are rich, and there are poor, but the middle is bigger. Period.

[Indenturedebtor]

79. So what do you get for that money?

"The middle is bigger."

So what? I'm in the middle. Still if I get sick I'm screwed. Almost all of my money goes to pay for my house and my car. I can't travel (no money no vacation), I can't save money, I can't start a business, I can't even have kids right now because I would go bankrupt. And I have it better than most of the people I know. I'm the most monetarily successful person of any of the friends I grew up with, and I'm in trouble and struggling.

So what? Assume that I wasn't struggling financially. When you compare the lifestyle of the average American to any other industrialised country, America is dead last in pretty much every category. But you're ok with that?

Your "allergy to anti-empiricism" apparently doesn't include myopia.

"The average American makes an average American wage." Um yes so does the average Cambodian. What's your point? We still have the biggest income inequality in the industrialised world. Yay us. Our money doesn't go as far in this country, and we have to work like dogs to get it.

[Greyhound]

67. The preceding reply speaks volumes about how effective the indoctrination is.

In truth however, we have forgotten what the "American Dream" was, or was supposed to be. A job, a house in the suburbs, a passel of kids, and a garage full of crap, was just the PR campaign that supplanted the original dream which was all about only one thing, liberty.

Horacio Alger was a hack that wrote fictional "dime novels" and we only had about 30 years of progressing toward the "Real American Dream" before the parasites managed to worm their way in.

[Indenturedebtor]

69. But Jesus loves cheap plastic goods! Aren't they the measure of a man?

How else do you "keep score" than through the accumultion of worthless crap you never have time to use? :puke:

[Bill McBlueState]

39. Yeah

Wasn't that on the test you took?

[pitohui]

40. you can believe what you like and i can believe what i like

the opportunity to live an extraordinary life is available to all of us.



i happen to believe, based on my life experience, that this is an incredibly cruel and destructive belief

the opportunity to live an extraordinary life clearly ISN'T available to all of us, often times there is nothing punished more harshly than working hard -- you lose your entire life to work and are then thrown away when you get old and sick -- while the man who cheats and steals ends up king of the world (rove and cheney being exhibit a)

the fantasy that we are rewarded according to merit is cruel and hurtful for what should be obvious reasons, because it is another way to blame the poor and the sick for being poor and sick

but it's a religious fantasy and, as such, we are supposed to tolerate the religious fantasies of others

some people couldn't go on if they accepted reality and truly understood in their soul that there is no justice on this earth and the rain falls on the just and the unjust alike, they HAVE to believe that every story has a happy ending

it doesn't mean they can't be progressive, just means they have a blind spot -- and we all have blind spots

but, at the end of the day, the statistics don't lie, and the statistics show that the predictor of your class is the class of your parents -- NOT HOW HARD YOU HAVE WORKED -- the people who work the hardest, those who do the hard dirty work of the real world, pretty much don't have and won't get

the man who empties the garbage cans at the white house works harder and longer than bush, but who gets paid the big bucks?

[BigDaddy44]

60. Its cruel to believe we all can lead extraordinary lives?

Forgive me, but that is one of the most exceedingly stupid statements I have ever heard.

If you are in fact correct, and that it is cruel, this is what we should teach children from day 1 in first grade: you will NEVER do better than mommy and daddy. Never. Don't even think about it. Daddy has a lousy low paying job? You will too. Don't bother studying hard. Its a waste of time. You will be what you are right now, and nothing more.

Now, which belief do you believe is more "cruel and destructive"? Yours or mine?

[HughBeaumont]

71. I WOULD tell kids one very . . VERY important piece of advice:

"Listen carefully to this sentence: In America, life is a hell of a lot easier if you're wealthy. So if I were you, I'd start forcing myself to love a cash-cow, non-offshoreable career (cause dreams ain't-a-gonna pay the mortgage) like doctor, lawyer, CEO, politician, senior systems analyst, plumber, auto mechanic or something having to do with planet saving ('cause your generation's going to be doing a LOT of that, you're welcome), saving my milk money and allowance . . . NOW, don't get addicted to Disney, video games or high fructose corn syrup (yeah . . . good luck with that) and don't buy any toys except Legos, because those are the only things you'll actually be playing with 6 months to a year from now. Have a nice recess."

[anonymous171]

42. It is in danger of corporate takeover.

[Indenturedebtor]

50. Says the voice of 1970 :P Too late n/t

[HughBeaumont]

49. Well, no . . .

. . . but at the same time, you can't really pretend or delude yourself that . . . whatever the "American Dream" is . . . would be as easy or easier to attain as opposed to 35 years ago.

The job security simply isn't there. A Pew Charitable Trusts survey from 2004 found that men in their 30s had a median income of 12 percent less than their fathers did at the same age. Occupational progression remains unattainable for much of the population, along with higher education. Since 1979, hourly earnings for 80% of American workers have risen by just 1 percent (factoring inflation). The average wage was 17.71/hr in 2007, falling by 5 percent compared to 1979.

And let's dispel at least one myth: According to Elizabeth Warren's study, the problem isn't that we're "living beyond our means". Quite the contrary - she found that, as opposed to 35 years ago, this generation is actually spending LESS on appliances, portables, accoutrements, etc, but at the same time their money is being allocated at an astronomic and disproportionate rate toward housing, transporation, clothing, health care and education. In other words, the soaring cost of necessities are generally what's killing us, not the mythical "champagne lifestyle on a Miller Lite salary". That's not to say there aren't those who indulge a little too much, but to assert that as the rule and not the exception is silly and judgemental.

Do yourselves a favor. In book stores and gift shops, there are pamphlets which gloss over life at the year of your birth. Here, you can see just what it is we're trying to tell you. In my year alone (1969), house price vs average income was 2:1. Average Income vs car price was 25%. Look at how one-sided the necessities/cost-of-living ratio has become. What are homes, now . . . 3:1 to 7:1 vs income? That's not even counting food costs, health care costs, college costs, etc.

Back then, your kid didn't have to go to college to get a decent job. There's yet another strain on working families; not only does the kid need higher ed, but the parents do also. Anymore, the bachelor's degree is becoming as useless as a HS diploma was in the late 90s. When does the point arrive when you need an Masters not as a means of achieving a higher salary, but merely to remain employable?? I think we're going to be hitting that soon, if not already.

This may very well be the first generation that's destined to do worse than their parents on ALL fronts.

[BigDaddy44]

53. Thank you all for the responses

I think its clear. The official progressive position is that the American dream is a fraud and a lie. We are all destined to be serfs working for "the man" for the rest of our lives, and there is no realistic hope of any of us bettering our lot in life. Any exceptions are due to dumb luck, fraud, or some other anomaly. Those who disagree are clearly deluded, and should be duly chastised for any sense of long term optimism in their fellow Americans that they feel.

I would like to respectfully suggest to the moderators that they change the ground rules of the forum to reflect the vast majority opinion of those who frequent DU. To whit: America sucks, has always sucked, and the American dream is a fraud that has never existed.

And I apologize for my opinion that American is indeed a great country populated by great people (conditions imposed by the current administration not withstanding). I didn't realize this was such an offensive position.

[Fumesucker]

59. Not offensive, just somewhat myopic

All it takes in America to lose everything is one halfway serious illness.

I know this because it happened to my parents in the late sixties and it is happening to me now.

My family in the UK is quite aghast at how my wife and I are being treated by the insurance companies and the medical establishment in the US, it actually took some convincing on my part to get them to accept that it is possible to die in the US simply because you cannot afford the necessary medical treatment.

Now we can also go into the fact that "the land of the free" has the highest incarceration rate in the world, bar absolutely none whatsoever. Do you think the one in three black men who will go to prison in the US have much of a chance at your American dream?

[BigDaddy44]

61. Personal choices

Are you suggesting that those in prison are largely innocent? Some surely are, but I would venture its a relatively low number. If those in prison don't have much of a chance at "my" American dream, its largely because of decisions "they" made.

[Fumesucker]

63. I'm suggesting that we have a lot of laws which criminalize things

Which should not be criminalized.

Why else would the US have an incarceration rate very nearly seven times that of Canada?

Or would you like to argue that Americans are seven times as criminally minded as Canadians?

[BigDaddy44]

64. I believe putting drug users in jail is stupid

And a waste of money. Other than that, I would invite you to walk through your common, everyday prison, interview the inmates, review what they're being imprisoned for, and suggest which ones shouldn't be there. In fact, if they're such nice guys, invite them to your house for a drink. Let them stay the night. Lend them your car for awhile.....

[Fumesucker]

66. LOL.. My brother spent five years on the chain gang..

For "drugs".

I know more about it than you.

[lastliberalintexas]

87. Yep, because the child growing up in Houston's 5th ward

obviously had the same opportunities and chances as I, a white child of the middle class.

[BigDaddy44]

91. Of course everyone doesn't have the same opportunities

There are inequalities. No one with any sense would deny that. A child growing up in Houston's 5th ward clearly will have a more difficult time of it than a white child of the middle class.

However, lets assume that child has parents who love him. Who read to him. Who send him to school, and demand that he do well. Who make a concerted effort to keep him away from drugs and gangs. If he has the drive to succeed, and makes the right choices, he can succeed. It won't be easy. He'll face a lot of adversity. But its certainly possible. And it happens on a continual basis. To suggest that he has zero chance to succeed in this world is simply false.

[Fumesucker]

92. Some big assumptions..

Considering that twenty percent of American adults are functional illiterates.

And you didn't reply to my post above either.

[BigDaddy44]

93. I assume its the question regarding our high crime rate

Why is our crime rate higher? I don't know. I have theories, but i'm not a sociologist or a criminologist.

But I don't see how its relevant. How does the high rate of incarceration affect YOUR pursuit of the American dream. Are you suggesting that you're in danger of being locked up for something you didn't do? And that that's whats preventing you from succeeding?

As far as the high functional illiteracy rate goes, its a nice number you threw out. Got any data to back it up?

[Fumesucker]

95. You don't see how the world's higest incarceration rate effects "the American dream"?

I already pointed out that my brother did 5 years of hard time for a crime that shouldn't be a crime.

Do you really think that didn't effect his pursuit of the American dream?

Roughly a third of the men he was imprisoned with were there for non violent "drug" crimes.

http://www.wsws.org/news/1998/oct1998/ill-o14.shtml

Illiteracy on the rise in America
By Larry Roberts
14 October, 1998

According to a recent US government report, The State of Literacy in America, released by the National Institute for Literacy (NIL), there has been a significant growth in illiteracy in America. Over 90 million US adults, nearly one out of two, are functionally illiterate or near illiterate, without the minimum skills required in a modern society.

[LWolf]

56. No.

One does not have to be left, liberal, or hold any particular position to be a progressive. One only needs to want change, any change at all, to be progressive.

Centrists are progressive. They are changing the direction of the Democratic Party, and moving their agenda forward. That's why the DLC think tank is "The Progressive Policy Institute."

[baldguy]

58. The definition of a progressive is someone who believes the American Dream is for everybody.

The definition of a conservative is someone who believes it only applies to him.

[BigDaddy44]

62. Exactly

Thank you. Clearly you are in the minority. The consensus appears to be the definition of a progressive is someone who believes the American Dream is for no one. It is after all, a sham and a lie.

[DangerDave921]

70. American Dream is not about being rich

It was never about being Bill Gates rich. It was about a modest vision for life -- a home, a family, a decent job. And personal freedom to enjoy life free from government tyrany. That's about it. And yet there are many who have those things and yet claim that America hasn't given them enough. Maybe the fault lies not with America, but with the expectations of those who want more.

The American Dream was never about the government providing free stuff; it was about the government allowing individuals the freedom to procure their own dream. That is a vastly different thing.

The American Dream is still alive. But you have to define it properly in order to understand that.

And yes, one's parents and economic status can greatly impact the ease with which one can attain life's pleasures. But that doesn't mean that you can't achieve a good life coming from modest beginnings.

[Indenturedebtor]

77. Who said anything about "free stuff"? Do you pay taxes?

If you don't, then I'm glad to hear that you're rich... good on you.

But if you do pay taxes then you have the right to expect your government to spend as much money guaranteeing a good education for your children as it does on blowing people up so that corporations can make money. You also have the right to expect your government to represent you and help you get a fair shake against powerful moneyed interests who want nothing more than to enslave you.

I could go on. But basically there is no purpose for government if it isn't a way for the common people to band together and effect positive changes in society and the wider world. If the American Dream entails a good life for you and yours when you work hard (and we work the hardest on the earth), then there is nothing wrong with expecting a fair bargain.

The American people are being exploited and completely shit on. Wake up.

[DangerDave921]

81. Wake up yourself

Yes, free stuff. You're attacking America as a whole because there is no national healthcare, no public daycare, and you want shorter hours, more pay, and more vacation time. So yes, the essence of your posts is that you want more handed to you.

Of course I pay taxes. That doesn't mean that the government then becomes responsible for taking care of me. The truly needy deserve help. But you seem to be demanding that everything in your life be provided to you courtesy of the government.

You said in an earlier post that America is a shit-hole. That is just plain ludicrous. Maybe your life is a shit-hole and you are extrapolating.

Also, are you saying that the rich don't pay taxes? Where does that idea come from? It is just plain wrong.

[Indenturedebtor]

83. Like I said - relatively speaking

America is a shithole among industrialised nations. Most of your tax dollars go to support a military that busies itself setting up corporate colonies around the world, instead of to providing communal solutions to the problems that we all face as a nation.

The wealty in this country (as of 2006) hold over 50% of the stock market, and over 60% of the nation's assets (Greg Palast - Armed Madhouse). Yet I'm taxed at a higher rate. Does that sound "fair" to you?

I never said that the government is responsible for taking care of me. But it is responsible for representing the interests of Americans as a whole. It does not. Whereas if you go to any other industrialised country, people are working less, have more paid vacation, nationalised medicine, most have daycare, more opportunities for higher education, and on and on and on.

Furthermore there are higher standards for what one has to pay an employee. There are higher standards on what constitutes "business ethics" etc. There are longer times for maternity leave.

In America the reality behind the "Dream" is that the rich have all the freedom in the world to screw the average American. To screw the people that actually do the work.

Do you need some more statistics? You're railing against fact with hyperbole my friend. There is nothing wrong with expecting to share in the pie that you help bake.

[Indenturedebtor]

73. Not at all. We're not saying that it's impossible to change the US

But you're saying that we've already arrived.... all of the statistics and "facts on the ground" indicate that this country has been fucked up for a long time. As progressives we generally hold that there is work to be done to make a "more perfect union".

You seem to be falling prey to the just world fallacy. Most of the people who fail in this country fail because they don't have the support they need to succeed.

I don't know how often you are exposed to the common American here, but let me tell you... I sold cars for three years and have only recently moved to another industry. In car sales you spend up to 20 hours with the same families/individuals. You look at their credit reports, you look at their budgets, you go to their houses, they tell you about their lives - they explain their financial situations.

So many people work two jobs just to stay afloat. All of their wages go to pay for their shitty 1 room apartments and if they are lucky their shitty cars. If they get sick they are screwed. Once they have a bankruptcy they can't even buy a car to get to work... if they can then they will pay 18% interest and end up spending 3 times what the car is worth.. .other than that it's 4 hours on the bus every day to get to your two jobs.

American life is a tragedy... the American dream is bullshit. The way to build a just society is NOT to hold profits over all, and to NOT allow the rich to make the rules.

[Fumesucker]

74. In my experience four hours is a bit conservative for time spent on the bus

For *two* jobs..

A long time ago I had an injury which kept me from riding my bicycle, my only transportation at the time, to work and I had to start riding the bus. Three hours round trip per day for a distance which took me an hour round trip on my bicycle. That was for one job, not two.

[nadinbrzezinski]

72. You can believe whatever you want

but we have allowed evil to happen in our name... evil is banal.

And people do struggle day to day

It is not imaginations or psychological

[NeedleCast]

76. You are Not Alone

Some of us have yet to succumb to the hyperbole.

[readmoreoften]

78. "with hard work and good decisions, the opportunity to live an extraordinary life is available "

So, then, what you're saying is that people who are poor and struggling have not worked hard nor made good decisions. In other words: the poor are lazy and inept. The fact that a higher percentage of blacks and latinos are statistically impoverished means that white people must work harder and make better decisions than blacks and latinos.

Of course you're free to believe in these right-wing platitudes, but they're racist and silly and factually incorrect. Sure we all have a cousin Mo who is poor because he's lazy and inept and we all have a token cousin Molly who made it to law school. But we also have a system filled with privileged mediocre and even below average white kids who party through college and land great corporate jobs and talented poor kids who work hard and will never go anywhere.

We "all" don't live in some hellhole. Many of us just allow capital to continue to exploit people inside and outside of the U.S. as literal slave labor. Progressives are generally people who at least recognize the conditions of the working poor although most don't stand with them to fight.

[EFerrari]

80. The "American Dream" is a term that was coined in the 1930s,

when all that a lot of people had to hang onto was the fantasy of a sustainable life. Maybe that's why it's called a "dream" and not a "promise".

[sudopod]

88. I wonder how much social mobility varies as a function of location within the US

There's 300 million of us, we're not monolithic. I imagine that there is a vast difference in social mobility in a place like New York City compared to, say, Lowndesboro, Alabama.