This is DEMOCRATIC Underground

[Kermitt Gribble]

If we cannot tolerate criticism of our elected Democratic officials when they vote against Democratic principles, that makes us republicans.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

1. Indeed, it's democratic underground.

So we should be spending more time complaining about republicans than we do democrats.

[OhioBlue]

2. I agree. n/t

[DrDan]

5. but . . . there is nothing wrong with expressing dissatisfaction when our candidate

votes against our principles

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

6. No, nothing wrong with that.

But if that's all a person does, and not "express dissatisfaction" with the other guy, then that person's "principles" become suspect.

[DrDan]

8. well I do not feel like sitting in judgement of another

that's what we have mods for.

Don't you agree?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

9. There is nothing wrong in expressing dissatisfaction in other dems.

Don't you agree?

[DrDan]

10. oh I fully agree with that

whether fellow-posters or candidates.

Not my place, however, to tell someone what they should raise as an issue and what they shouldn't.

Wouldn't you agree?

[Growler]

28. agreed

[Growler]

29. dupe

[Runcible Spoon]

39. and, just directed at you, less time complaining about the Dems who complain about the Dems.

sheesh.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

50. When have I complained about dems?

:shrug:

[tburnsten]

43. No one should get a free pass

Regardless of what party they affiliate themselves with, no elected official should ever be given any leeway, anyone who is looking for an elected position had best be fully aware that they will (or should anyway) be under a microscope at all times, I personally don't want anyone representing our nation who isn't honest and worthy of their position, regardless of their political ideology. If someone is a fuckup, why cut them some slack with an "at least he's xxxx"?

[DrDan]

3. don't say that over in GD - Pres

[jgraz]

4. Actually, that makes us worse than Republicans

For those who haven't noticed, the Repug base squeals like stuck pigs if any of their candidates even *head fakes* to the left. And yet, they still have managed to win 7 out of the last 10 presidential elections.

[Kermitt Gribble]

16. You're right, jgraz.

But it seems like the republicans rarely stray from their party's agenda, which could be why they have such a strong base. Versus our Democrats, who pander to the right every election. That makes them look weak in our eyes and especially weak in the eyes of the opposition and independants.

[jgraz]

21. There's a key lesson in the defeat of Bush 41.

He raised taxes, the base deserted him and he lost to a relatively weak Democratic candidate. You think another Republican will ever dare to raise taxes as long as that party exists?

Lesson given, lesson learned.

Now the real question is, why don't the Democrats ever learn?

[DaveJ]

7. IMHO, sometimes it seems more like the T.U.

Totalitarian Underground. The problem is that when people here don't get their way one every single issue they throw a fit.

I feel being a Democrat involves accepting that not everyone in the U.S. thinks the same way.

[TreasonousBastard]

11. But, who decides what "Democratic principles"...

are?

Wouldn't that be Democratic officials?

[Kermitt Gribble]

13. Democratic principles

when speaking of a democracy, should start with the Constitution, no?

[DaveJ]

19. Where has the Constitution been violated?

It has been violated in many ways, but if you are thinking about FISA or FBI's, I disagree.

[DaveJ]

18. The people decide, so yes.

Politicians have to represent what the U.S. people want and balance that with our rights and liberties. Even if a group of people disagree with an issue they have to ask whether or not that really does violates their freedom.

For instance, I like FISA. I think it really is intended to protect us, as long as it is in good hands. I don't think it violates the rights of anyone except for people planning on destruction. Urine tests affect millions more people who are relatively innocent (I don't do drugs but I don't care who does) yet we barely hear a peep of concern about those. There are other issues too that affect us like background checks for essential needs like homes and sometimes jobs. These really do affect a massive number of people. FISA truly is just a tool to prevent horrendous crime.

Also, some folks simply want to live conservative lives. As long as it's within reason, I think they have a right to teach their kids conservative values. Sometimes they feel the government is interfering with their right. Although I don't agree with them I think politicians have to support that right.

[lame54]

12. No, THIS is Democratic Underground...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QUiEd0IHaDs

[Blue-Jay]

14. This is...

SPARTA!

[stray cat]

15. Can I vote democrat eventhough I don't agree with all of your perceived dem principles?

or is there a written set of principles that are black and white for every possible vote that must be dogmatically and rigidly adhered too? I thought freedom of thought was a good principle.

[Kermitt Gribble]

20. Freedom of thought is the greatest principle.

The posters here bullying everyone else for criticizing the recent pandering are the ones stifling freedom of thought. The Bill of Rights, however, should be "dogmatically and rigidly adhered too" regardless of which party you support.

[A-Schwarzenegger]

17. It's Democratic Underground, LLC.

:*

[old mark]

22. Sir, actually, that makes us Democrats. The party

has a history through much of the twentieth century to the present day of being the most disagreeable bunch of people ever assembled. This is one reason we lose so many "sure thing" elections. We bash our own dandidates, piss each other off, and lose the presidency to prove a point that is really if little interst to begin with.

You can see it happening right now. IF Obama wins, it will be in spite of much of the loyal Democratic party.
Do you really think a died in the wool idiot like George Bush could actually become president if the Democrats didn't hand him the victory? Not even in America!
mark

[jgraz]

23. Once again, you're learning the wrong lesson

We don't lose because we "bash" our candidates. We "bash" our candidates because they continue to LOSE. And they not only lose national elections (as they've done 7 out of the last 10 times), they lose the DEBATE.

Who would have thought that in 2008, we've be arguing about whether the 4th Amendment was a good thing and whether the US Government should be allowed to torture people? This is because the Democrats not only LOST the debate, they never even showed up for the fight.

If that sounds like "bashing" to you, then I'm a "basher".

[RufusTFirefly]

25. Oh no! Not THAT old chestnut!!

So you think that Bush won in his brother's state, fair and square? Aaargh!

As for the scape-goating of Nader, I think we as a party behave like utter losers if we demonize progressives who oppose us instead of wondering what we have done (if anything) to alienate certain segments of our party and then deciding what (if anything) we can do to encourage them to rejoin us. (Let me hasten to add that I've been a Democrat my whole voting life and a campaign worker for Democrats even before I was able to vote.)

Granted, I think at times it's fair to look at dissenters and conclude "To hell with 'em. We don't need 'em. They're not worth the concessions we'd have to make." However, if and when we do we should be aware of the potential consequences of such a decision. But there are other times when we need to heed the complaints of increasingly alienated allies and figure out if we have somehow lost our way. This is precisely what the United States should've done when France opposed the illegal, wrong-headed invasion of Iraq. But instead we got "Freedom Fries." I detect an alarmingly similar sentiment among some lockstep "with us or against us" Democrats who want to simply cast out or ignore members of their party who are conscientiously sounding the alarm.

[elocs]

24. Yes, this is the DemocraticUnderground.com--a private message board with it own rules.

Rules that we all are required to agree to in order to post here. One basic rule I see violated here all the time under the guise of constructive criticism or dissent is: " Do not post broad-brush smears against Democrats or the Democratic Party." I read lots of broad brush smears here.

Just as Republicans like to wrap themselves in the mantle of the flag and pass judgement on those who do not agree with them, we have those here at DU who like to wrap themselves in the mantle of the Constitution and then to preach, lecture, and pass judgement on anyone who disagrees with them. I am sure they feel noble and righteous in doing that, but so do the Republicans who wrap themselves in the flag.

Disagree all you like, but there is a line here at DU that can be crossed because we are expected to support Democratic candidates. I would love to see those who are so critical of Obama at least post an equal number of criticisms of McCain and the Republicans.

[skooooo]

26. ..

:thumbsup:

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

32. Define "support".

[elocs]

33. There is a lot of leeway and latitude on this, but it is also somewhat specific:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/forums/rules_detailed.html (scroll down):

Democratic Candidates and the Democratic Party

Constructive criticism of Democrats or the Democratic Party is permitted. When doing so, please keep in mind that most of our members come to this website in order to get a break from the constant attacks in the media against our candidates and our values. Highly inflammatory or divisive attacks that echo the tone or substance of our political opponents are not welcome here.

You are not permitted to use this message board to work for the defeat of the Democratic Party nominee for any political office. If you wish to work for the defeat of any Democratic candidate in any General Election, then you are welcome to use someone else's bandwidth on some other website.

Democratic Underground may not be used for political, partisan, or advocacy activity by supporters of any political party or candidate other than the Democratic Party or Democratic candidates. Supporters of certain other political parties may use Democratic Underground for limited partisan activities in political races where there is no Democratic Party candidate.

Do not post broad-brush smears against Democrats or the Democratic Party.

Concerning the presidential election you are not allowed to announce here that you will not vote for Obama or to encourage others to not vote for Obama, or advocate his defeat. There are certainly other cutesy-clever ways of doing that and one of them is to use the word "support", like, "I cannot bring myself to support Obama". Everybody knows what you really mean, but there is plausible deniability where you can claim you will vote for him, but you cannot "support" him.

Also notice it does say "constructive criticism of Democrats or the Democratic Party is permitted". I seen some pretty vitriolic statements masquerading as constructive criticism, so I think the mods here are pretty loose in that respect. But I am sure there is a line and some have willingly sought it out and found it.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

38. I missed the part, in what you posted, that demands we vote for Obama.

I have the quaint notion that my vote is mine to do with as I choose. And, that candidates have to earn my vote.

"I never submitted the whole system of my opinions to the creed of any party of men whatever, in religion, in philosophy, in politics, or in anything else, where I was capable of thinking for myself. Such an addiction is the last degradation of a free and moral agent. If I could not go to heaven but with a party, I would not go there at all." --Thomas Jefferson to Francis Hopkinson, 1789.

"Were parties here divided merely by a greediness for office,...to take a part with either would be unworthy of a reasonable or moral man." --Thomas Jefferson to William Branch Giles, 1795.

“Always vote for principle, though you may vote alone, you may cherish the sweetest reflection that your vote is never lost." --John Quincy Adams

[elocs]

48. You don't get to post here at DU and say you will not vote for Obama

or that you will work for his defeat. What part of that do you not understand? You are free to vote for whomever you like, you just don't get to come here to DU and use their bandwidth to declare it.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

51. Show me.

What you posted. Show me the part about voting.

Democratic Candidates and the Democratic Party

Constructive criticism of Democrats or the Democratic Party is permitted. When doing so, please keep in mind that most of our members come to this website in order to get a break from the constant attacks in the media against our candidates and our values. Highly inflammatory or divisive attacks that echo the tone or substance of our political opponents are not welcome here.

You are not permitted to use this message board to work for the defeat of the Democratic Party nominee for any political office. If you wish to work for the defeat of any Democratic candidate in any General Election, then you are welcome to use someone else's bandwidth on some other website.

Democratic Underground may not be used for political, partisan, or advocacy activity by supporters of any political party or candidate other than the Democratic Party or Democratic candidates. Supporters of certain other political parties may use Democratic Underground for limited partisan activities in political races where there is no Democratic Party candidate.

Do not post broad-brush smears against Democrats or the Democratic Party

[elocs]

52. So, you've been a member since 2001 and have over 20,000 posts.

I can only assume you are being deliberately obtuse because I am sure you know what will happen if you post here on DU that you will not vote for Obama or that you encourage others not to do it. If I am wrong, then please, if you intend not to vote for Obama, please post it here so that we may all read about it. Because you know people have been tombstoned for doing just that.

X for now.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

55. I haven't made up mind.

But, I'll be glad to tell you after the election.

Why are you so concerned about how I, or any else, will vote?

[lynettebro440]

54. Right On

Elocs your exactly right. I was on here in 2005 right before bush stole the 2006 election. People were energized and pissed and we marched and protested the war and supported Cindy sheehan, but I left because there was so much whining and it was draining. A lot of my friends aren't here anymore and I wonder what happened.

But now, hell the people on here remind me exactly what the repukes were like back then. They are nasty, spiteful, assholes in my opinion and it makes me feel like as it was back then with repukes still feels like now, with supposed democrats. I come on here and it pisses me off what I read. If people here on DU that are paying attention can't get along then how the hell will we ever win this damn thing.

[Pastiche423]

56. * did not steal the 2006 election

Not only did he not steal it, there was no presidential election in 2006 to steal. :eyes:

[YOY]

27. If you think criticism is on the same level as smears then I most heartily dissagree.

I am a Democrat. I vote Democratic. I can and will criticise other Democrats. I can and will criticise Republicans. Blind faith and lemminglike following is for the other party.

[Kermitt Gribble]

34. I do not think criticism is on the same level as smears.

Its not hard to distinguish between smears and criticism, however, there are a lot of DUers having a hard time distinguishing. If we do not criticize our candidates, how can we shape our party?

[skooooo]

36. If we don't get them in office...

..it won't matter one bit what you think about any issue.

[Kermitt Gribble]

40. You need to understand

that someone can criticize a candidate and still support that candidate. I haven't seen any posts pushing people to not vote.

[LynneSin]

30. I have no problem of criticizing democrats....

the problem I have is suggesting we vote 3rd party, voting republican or even not voting as an alternative.

I did not sign up for the 'thirdparty underground.com' website.

[Kermitt Gribble]

41. I agree.

But if the Dems keep moving to the right or continue to seem complicit in the crimes of the right, I will have to look for a new party in the future.

[specimenfred1984]

31. 800 Recs For The Latest Hillary-Smear!

250 Recs for the latest (D) smear! Keep kidding yourself, you apparently like living a life of delusions.

[Kermitt Gribble]

35. Where did I say anything about smears?

You need to learn to distinguish between smears and criticism.

[EFerrari]

37. Republicans don't tolerate or facilitate criticism.

So, no, that doesn't make people republicans.

What it does make us is a group who can't tolerate discussion or disagreement and it's likely that the internet fosters a kind of mob mentality that we don't have a handle on yet.

[skooooo]

42. I think it stands just as much for Democratic party.

[EFerrari]

46. We seem to tolerate dissent much better than the Thugs do.

Maybe not as much as some of us would like.

But, we do act like a group, that's true enough.

[Kermitt Gribble]

44. Great analogy!

Where do you think this mob mentality comes from? I think there has always been a mob mentality (extremists, maybe) that accounted for a very small percentage of society, but the past 7 years, this number has grown exponentially.

[EFerrari]

45. Not sure. But it may be that people who normally don't speak up

do speak up on the net. (In any net based group, only a small number really do with any frequency.)

That means, people are still in learning mode but their keyboards are in assertion mode. I think of it in terms of my sons' soccer teams that were all bunched up in a knot on the field, kicking each other instead of kicking the ball most of the time.

In the long run, it's probably all good. People learn to play their positions, to pass and set up plays and so on. In the short run, you have a small mob kicking at itself. lol

[skooooo]

47. This board isn't a "democracy"

There are rules you can read. Discussing in the abstract and making allusions to republicans doesn't seem to accomplish anything.

[EFerrari]

49. That seems right to me. I've never been very interested in Republicans, anyway.

Most of us learn that defining ourselves in contrast to an enemy doesn't work very well for very long when we hit the third grade or so.

[librechik]

53. This is Democratic UNDERGROUND

We're not going to be Nice and Mainstream and Moderate, either!

Cuss words ALLOWED, like in the Underground Press!