Dying from cancer is a horrible way to go. I've seen it happen to people in my family.

[Danger Mouse]

I wouldn't wish it on anyone, not even an asshole like Tony Snow.
He was not a good person, but he didn't deserve to die young, and certainly not like that.
Being a jerk about it makes us look every bit as bad as the bottom feeders at Free Republic. That's not the image we want to convey to our fellow progressives.
Hatred and cruelty are NOT liberal values.

[CaliforniaPeggy]

1. My dear Elrond Hubbard...

You are absolutely right about this...

Safe passage to him...

My deepest condolences to his family and loved ones...

[Danger Mouse]

2. I agree. I can't find it in me to feel much sympathy for him...

but I can't find it in me to celebrate his passing, either.

[Raven]

6. Peg, we can always depend on you to say just the right thing. You

are a true treasure. :-)

[CaliforniaPeggy]

11. Thank you, my dear Raven...

That means a lot...

:hug:

[roguevalley]

39. Lung cancer and dimentia in my family. Unless you have watched

someone suffer from this, the dignity and futility of their battle, their amazing effort to not be a problem for those who are suffering with them and have to stay behind, you cannot know. I wouldn't wish this on a personal enemy. There is no pleasure for me in this news.

[Skittles]

3. I literally would not wish it on my worst enemy

it's a terrible thing indeed

[Danger Mouse]

8. I agree. We are all human beings, even our enemies.

[Raven]

4. Agreed. Colon Cancer seems to take many men in their prime.

I have lost 2 friends to it. This is a time when if you can't say something nice, say nothing at all. I guess what I can say is that I hope the publicity will send lots of folks to their doctors to get checked. That would be a positive thing.

[we can do it]

48. Not Just Men, It Killed My Grandma Early Too

[supernova]

5. I feel the same

I watched and cared for my mother when she died of breast cancer 12 years ago this month. It's an absolutely horrible way to die.

My condolences to his family.

[Kajsa]

37. My condolences,supernova.

:hug:

[BunkerHill24]

7. My Father past away March 6 of this year from brain tumor

I and my 3 sisters were devastated (he was 72).....he was diagnosed September 07, and died on march 6

He was the best friend.

[Skittles]

10. my sympathy to you an your sisters, Bunker

I covered at work extensively for a coworker who went through the same - he is a quiet kind of guy who never wished to talk about it much but I could see the horror and heartbreak on his face

[terrya]

9. My dad battled cancer.

4 years ago, Dad was diagnosed with cancer. Hell, in hindsight, the cancer was pretty far advanced by his diagnosis. Dad was a big, hale, hearty guy. And within 6 months of his diagnosis, after the radiation treatments and the chemotherapy (which ended up paralyzing him from the waist down), my Dad was about 100lbs, could not, at times, recognize his own family, would go into bouts of seeming dementia. We watched him waste away into a mere shell of his former self. He was at home at the end. And we watched him die. At least, the night before, I talked to him (hell, I don't even know if he was listening. He was asleep) and I told him how much I loved him and how proud I was to be his son.

Dying with cancer is horrible. That's why, even though I didn't like Tony Snow all that much, I still offered my condolences to his family.

[Danger Mouse]

12. ...

:hug:
we're all people. we're all human beings. each and every one of us.

[Gman]

13. Colon cancer is one of the most excruciatingly painful ways to die

I don't wish that on anyone, even the worst RW'er. No one deserves to die like that.

May Snow rest in peace.

[Marr]

14. Being blown up by a roadside bomb or shot is pretty horrible, too.

I'm reserving my sympathies for the people Mr. Snow helped to kill by acting as a salesman for a criminal administration and amoral political movement. He was more than twice the age of most of our dead soldiers, too-- so I can't say that I feel he was all that cheated in years, either.

[stray cat]

18. I didn't know sympathy, humanity and compassion were limited commodities....

[Marr]

19. Well, now you know.

If you want to pretend that Tony Snow was a good man or that he stood for something respectable, you go right ahead. I won't.

Just out of curiosity, would you be moved to express your sympathy, humanity, and compassion for Charles Manson if he happened to die today?

[Riktor]

26. English must not be your first language...

... but that's okay, I'll talk you through it.

You see, the original post went something like this: "You don't have to like Tony Snow, but the man was a human being, and since liberals value life, we shouldn't act we're glad to see him die."

So, if you were literate, you would have walked away from the OP knowing full well nobody was suggesting we pretend Tony Snow was a "good person", or that we should pop open his coffin and fellate his corpse for old time's sake. But hey, it's not your fault. Not everyone can read at a fourth grade level.

Your allusion to Charles Manson also suggests you are one of the millions of mouth-breathing, knuckle-dragging primates that still believes there is such a thing as a "good person". Like Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny, and a living God that will talk directly to you, this is a myth; you are the product of your environment. So, instead of popping a big, fat rubbery one whenever it is that Chucky finally takes a dirt-nap, perhaps you should feel just a little bit sorry for the guy. After all, he was an illegitimate child who was once sold by his own mother for a pitcher of beer.

[Marr]

34. Yikes.

I'm not interested in trading insults with you, so I'll have to skip most of your points.

I find it odd that you seem to assume anyone who considers Charles Manson not to be a "good man" must also be a primitive caveman. I will not "pop a big rubbery fat one", as you so charmingly put it, when Charles Manson dies. The man is disturbed and I don't take pleasure in anyone's death.

However, I will not put a phony display of mourning, either. I won't pretend that he's left the world a poorer place, just because it's the polite thing to do. I don't think more highly of people just because they stop breathing.

Again, I'm not defending base attacks on Tony Snow or his illness. What I'm saying is that dying should not make a person immune to accurate appraisals of their actual works.

[Danger Mouse]

31. You miss the point. Nobody's saying that he was a good man or worthy of respect.

but as a human being, the horrible way he died is worthy of compassion.
nobody deserves to die that way. no matter how bad they were.

[patriotvoice]

38. Compassion to more than just The Good Men.

Yes, it is very hard to give compassion to those who have wronged us, our families, and Humanity. But violence is a cannibalistic predator, feeding upon itself with each transgression. When we withhold compassion based on what someone has done to us (personally or generally), we feed the violence and allow it to be fruitful and multiply.

By having compassion, we starve violence (personally and generally).

By having compassion, we live the Golden Rule: unto him that unto me.

By having compassion, we allow right to supersede wrong.

By having compassion, we teach our children that justice comes before punishment.


(To Charles Manson, yes, he deserves compassion -- even absent of death, his demons are our demons, and he deserves our compassion. Granting compassion in no way pardons his guilt, or the punishment he must endure for his crimes.)

On edit: wrong word in my previous subject line. s/Sympathy/Compassion/

[Number23]

28. ((resounding applause))

I didn't know sympathy, humanity and compassion were limited commodities....

:applause:

[Danger Mouse]

20. I didn't say you should have sympathy for him...

just some humanity.

[Marr]

21. What does that mean?

What's the difference between sympathy and humanity?

If you're saying we shouldn't post things like, "hooray, the bastard is dead", I'd agree-- but it's more in the interest of tact than respect for Snow's humanity. Mr. Snow chose to ignore his own humanity daily in deference to... what? Ideology? Money? I don't know what motivated him to act as a salesman for such shamefully inhuman acts. It seems odd to me that humanitarian concerns should shield such a man from honest appraisals of his life's work.

[Truth4Justice]

25. What about the humanity of all the dead people and GI's in Iraq?

[Riktor]

27. What about a little consistency?

It sure as hell makes a lot more sense than placing arbitrary conditions on the whole "sanctity of life thing".

[hack89]

29. Your humanity (or lack thereof) is a window into your soul

it is not something you turn on or off - it is always there or always lacking. I think you are lacking. It is not about Tony Snow.

[Marr]

35. I honestly don't understand your point.

Are you saying that we should all sit around and say Tony Snow did good, positive things with his life, simply because he died of cancer? We're supposed to promote a myth about a man because we feel sorry for him?

I am not defending base attacks on Tony Snow, or making light of his illness. What I'm saying is that we do everyone a disservice by pretending people were something they were not, simply because they've died. I'm not going to mock Tony Snow's suffering-- but I also won't sit here and say, "he was a good man", or "he tried to help" or whatever (I saw both these comments yesterday). They simply aren't true, IMHO-- and I'm not going to lie just because it's the fashionable thing to do.

[hack89]

43. I was too harsh - I apologize and retract my comment. nt

[Marr]

47. I appreciate that- thank you very much.

It takes character to apologize. I'll take half the blame myself-- I don't think I was as clear as I could've been at the outset.

[Danger Mouse]

30. It means that everyone who dies was a human being.

We, as liberals, are supposedly compassionate. There are some, of course, that we have no love for and are not sorry to see pass...but by showing humanity, I mean that we do not show disrespect or cruelty once they die just because we didn't like them.

[Marr]

36. Well, I would agree with you then.

Cruelty isn't something to foster at anytime.

I suspect we may just differ on our definition of "disrespect". I think painting an inaccurately positive image of a person's work after they die is disrespectful of everyone-- especially the person doing it. An honest, frank appraisal of a person's works and likely motivations isn't ever disrespectful, in my humble opinion-- not when the person is living, not shortly after they've died, not 100 years afterwards.

Base attacks are one thing, frank discussion is another.

[Fox Mulder]

44. I agree.

[Sheets of Easter]

15. Recommended. And I am tired of seeing people flouting the rules today.

These snarky little OPs just scream "notice me! Love me daddy! Somebody please notice me!" It's sickening.

Tony Snow was far down on my favorites list, way far down, but the umpteen threads celebrating his death in sarcastic fashion are classless and counterproductive.

[Taverner]

16. No one should have to die that way

No one

[Beacool]

17. I agree too.

Tony Snow may have been on the other side of the issues from us, but he was a human being in his prime and he had a loving wife and three young children. I feel for them, the rest of his family and his friends.

Rest in peace........

[On the Road]

32. Apparently, He Was in My Graduating Class at Davidson

He was a philosophy major. I didn't know him, but it's a small place and I'm sure we had some common friends and professors.

That humanizes him for me. And no, I don't think he was a bad guy either, even though I disagreed with him.

I just listened to a bit on NPR from a frend of Snow's, a black guy who is a Democrat. He was describing how they always hung out together, partly because Snow wanted a debating partner on the other side of issues, and people couldn't believe they were friends.

[Athletic Grrl]

41. Probably Juan Williams.

eom

[Withywindle]

22. Thank you.

Where there's life, there's hope.

If he'd lived longer he might have reached enlightenment. He won't have that chance now. But that's a reason to grieve, not to rejoice.

At any rate, regardless of his views, it doesn't behoove us to celebrate suffering. How is celebrating cancer any different from endorsing torture?

[hendo]

23. Cancer is a rough way to go.

My grandfather recently passed away from complications due to stomach cancer. It really sucked. My thoughts and prayers are with his family and friends. It really sucks to lose someone you know to cancer.

[rebel with a cause]

49. My father died from colon cancer twenty-two years ago.

I always thought I would get the big C in my colon also, but this year I was found to have breast cancer. This was a big surprise because no one else in my family ever had breast cancer, but it gets even worse because I had cancer in both breast and each tumor was of a different type. I am in the 1% of breast cancer patients to have this happen. I had the tumors cut out, of course, but due to my other health issues, I have chosen to take the minimum treatments for the disease. Am taking anti-hormone medication and had one Zometa treatment. I will not repeat the Zometa treatment willingly because of the side effects that I suffered from it: four weeks in bed and the worsening of my other health problems. I have come to the conclusion that the quality of life is more important than the quantity of it. I would rather have two good years than ten years of suffering. I don't want my children to have to suffer all those years with me. I will do what must be done, and hope for the best.

With my own experiences in mind, I feel sorry for Snow's family, and I wish them well, but don't feel any empathy for the man himself. Why? 1) Because when you know you are dying it gives you time to make things right with those you have wronged, and to make right what you have done wrong. 2)I don't believe in lying about someone just because they died, and although I won't throw stones at his memory, I also will not throw roses.

[fortyfeetunder]

24. I gave it that 5th R

hope it helps!

[Kajsa]

33. Skinner had the foresight to lay down the law

on this one.This was on the front page, yesterday morning,

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x3604935

I gave the moderators instructions to delete inappropriate posts about Tony Snow.

So, instead of creating extra work for them, it would be nice if people would voluntarily refrain from posting inflammatory crap that makes us all look like jerks.

That sums it up, nicely.

Unfortunately, I still had to alert the mods several times when this one got nasty.


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x3605378

( there's still an ubersarcastic, oh-aren't-I-clever? one still there)

I lost my dad to pancreatic cancer.
It's a horrible way to die.

I feel for anyone going through that.

Thanks for posting this Elrond!

You are a good person and your humanity comes through, everytime!

Another Rec, here.

:hug:

[leftofthedial]

40. but the truth is a liberal value

[Danger Mouse]

45. so is compassion and humanity. if we sacrifice either, we cease being liberal.

[leftofthedial]

46. ever heard the expression "cruel to be kind?"

If, faced with ongoing torture, death and cruelty, you place the truth above "compassion" for a dead fascist and its family, with the aim of ending torture, death and suffering for millions, is that a good liberal act?

Conversely, if you ignore or allow fascism to be ignored while it is killing, maiming, torturing and damaging millions, all in the name of "compassion," I don't think you are a good liberal, or really a good anything.

How many people were tortured, how many in Iraq died, how many in Afghanistan died, how many billions of treasure were flushed down the bush-halliburton shithole while you were crying over poor dead tony snowjob and worrying that we who call a spade a spade aren't "good liberals?"

Who is the next russert, snow or reagan who will gladly help bring suffering to our species and our planet because it stuffs their pockets with cash? What do they learn from your "compassion?" They learn that if you are a miserable, evil fuck, it's okay. You'll get rich and then you'll die a "hero" and no one will ever hold you accountable.

[Kajsa]

51. Let's try this, again.

Your quote,

"They learn that if you are a miserable, evil fuck, it's okay."

Elrond's OP,

"I wouldn't wish it on anyone, not even an asshole like Tony Snow.
He was not a good person, but he didn't deserve to die young, and certainly not like that.
Being a jerk about it makes us look every bit as bad as the bottom feeders at Free Republic."

Not even close, leftofthedial.

[leftofthedial]

52. I watched the beginnings of the russert-gasm on MSNBC

SOMEONE needed to point out that he was a corporate media whore who supported cheney and bush at every turn. No one did, except us.

Telling the truth about bad people and the evil for which they are responsible is not "bottom feeding," nor is it being a jerk.

[Kajsa]

53. Timing is the key.

Absolutely, the bastards need to be exposed!

But immediately after the death is not the time,

Skinner agrees with this,it is jerk behavior.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x3604935

So, are you going to argue with Skinner and all the moderators?


btw,

The uber RWingers called Russert "too liberal",
( he did work for both patrick Moynihan and Mario Cuomo at one time)
so we weren't the only ones calling him out.

[leftofthedial]

55. The best time is before, during, immediately after, a week after, forever after

we disagree.

Russert was a conservative-ish, slightly pro-labor Democrat at one time. It doesn't change his neocon standing of the last 15 years. He saw the payday at the end of the neocon "revolution" and went for it bigtime.

Wingnuts calling a dead media person a "liberal" has no credibility.

[SidneyCarton]

57. You're right,

Lets act like that psycho Fred Phelps, and shit all over the family at the funeral. Hell, lets crash the funeral, knock over the coffin, drag out the body and burn it in the street. SIC SEMPER TYRANNUS!!!!111!!!

:sarcasm:

You will have all summer and the rest of time to verbally disinterr and lynch the memory of Mr. Snow, (heaven knows he deserves it) Let the family bury him first.

[leftofthedial]

58. when did I ever advocate ANYTHING remotely like what you say?

I'm posting on a (formerly) left-of-center website, pointing out that some recently deceased people were leading neocon advocates of torture and other atrocities and that that is a bad thing and that they were bad guys for having done it.

You pissing on the truth out of bullshit "outrage" over me expressing an opinion is supremely odd.

[SidneyCarton]

59. You're right, my apologies, I took that too far.

I only meant to remind that one of the major people who sees no shame in insulting the deceased (deserving or not) at the moment of death is the execrable Mr. Phelps

[leftofthedial]

61. thanks. no worries.

I don't know where the "pissing on the grave" line is. I don't feel I have done that with either russert or snow. Maybe I did with Reagan. I'm sure I would with Cheney.

Phelps is human (maybe human) excrement.

[SidneyCarton]

62. Reagan and Cheney deserve some pissing.

Your assertion regarding Phelps is almost insulting, to excrement.

[Danger Mouse]

54. Pissing on someone who died horribly of cancer is not 'cruel to be kind'

it's just cruel.
Snow was an asshole, but he suffered in death, as do many. I don't think it's too much to ask for us to show a little humanity, that doesn't mean kiss his ass, it means to think twice about saying something idiotic about him because you have to 'speak truth to power.'

[leftofthedial]

56. who's pissing?

He was a neocon; he was an active opponent of civil liberties; he was a cheerleader for both the illegal invasion and the illegal occupation of Iraq; he was an enabler and an apologist for torture; he lied on bush's behalf for a living. All those factors made him a bad person in my book.

That's not pissing. Nothing I've said about him is idiotic. Quit being a pandering whimp.

[Vinca]

42. I agree entirely with the OP. Although I couldn't stand Snow Job,

it's a horrible way to go, especially for a person so young. I feel sorry for his family. My mother died of cancer when I was 9 and it's very sad never really knowing a parent.

[crimsonblue]

50. i agree.

but it's better than a heart attack or other sudden death (speaking from personal exp.)

[lastliberalintexas]

60. Where does one draw the line?

Personally I think it's easy to tell the grave dancing from the critiques of the person and commentary on her/his legacy, but too many on this site tend to believe that the dead of all stripes, sorts and characters must be lionized or else one is taking glee in death.

Tony Snow was an enabler and cheerleader of incredibly harmful policies, most of which disproportionately hurt the poor and least among us. He had quite a plush life, with access to some of the best medical care in the world- all the while supporting policies which denied that same medical care to people who also had cancer yet had the double misfortune to have cancer and be poor. To gloss over those facts just because the man has died would be wrong.

I am sad for his family, and I would not wish cancer on anyone. My mother has fought it and thus far is winning. Through her fight we have met people who have not been so fortunate, primarily because they are poor, or uninsured, or just don't have the money to pay for treatment. Tony Snow supported policies which allows those people's lives to be taken from them, even though they also had a family, or children, or parents and friends who loved them, just as he did.

I am sorry that Snow has lost his battle with cancer, and I wish that his death could be a catalyst for better treatment for all. I only wish he had been as good in life as he is portrayed in death.