Death alone is no reason for beatification.

[GaYellowDawg]

Listen, I'm not rejoicing that Tony Snow died. I'm certainly not going to rejoice when anyone goes in such a tough manner. But now, with some people, the only thing that seems to count is that he's dead. That one fact seems to override everything else. It shouldn't.

When Ronald Reagan died, it didn't change the fact that he'd been a horrible president, and that his administration was the architect for most of what ails America today. When Jerry Falwell died, it didn't change the fact that he'd lived his life assailing others and turning fundamentalists into a powerfully destructive force in American society and politics. When Jesse Helms died, it didn't change the fat that he had lived his life as a racist, homophobic, merciless, selfish bastard who cared nothing for anyone except himself and the people just like him. When Tony Snow died, it didn't change the fact that he'd been an active and enthusiastic participant in the single worst presidency in United States history, and aggressively pushed Bush administration lies on a daily basis.

Why must we only speak well of the dead, even if they lived lives that hurt others? If the effects of their lives died with them, I could understand it, but they don't. Shakespeare had it exactly right: "The evil that men do lives after them; the good is oft interred with their bones." When the leftover evil is so out of proportion to the interred good, why must we remain silent about it? Again, I'm not talking about being joyful over someone's death (although it's justified in a few rare cases). However, there should be room to be able to say that the nation is better off without someone. This nation is better off without Ronald Reagan, or Jerry Falwell, or Jesse Helms, and it's better off without a highly effective speaker like Tony Snow working for the Bush administration.

I protest the efforts by both posters and moderators to squelch an honest assessment of these men, just because it may hurt someone's feelings. When we remain silent, we leave a gaping vacuum which Republicans and conservatives will rush to fill with their own warped version of history. They will tell you that Strom Thurmond was a great man. That Jesse Helms was an "icon." That Jerry Falwell was a great religious leader. And they'll tell you that Tony Snow was some kind of journalistic hero. No, he wasn't. He was a marionette for the Bush administration, and aided and abetted their worst excesses. He was a victim, but he was no hero. The truth must still be told, lest every death of every destructive and horrible Republican and conservative turns into a long line of martyrs and saints.

[pagam]

1. Phil gramm

is dead

[ret5hd]

3. to me.

[ret5hd]

2. Phil Gramm? DO you mean Jesse Helms?

[GaYellowDawg]

7. Yeah, I did. I don't know where my head went.

:crazy:

[Raineyb]

11. Fruedian slip? nt

Regards

[GaYellowDawg]

12. Absolutely not - I'm not wishing death on Gramm by any means.

Just a stupid slipup.

[LARED]

4. Phil Gramm died? When? nt

[GaYellowDawg]

8. My bad - I'd just read an article about him and had him on my mind, too.

:crazy:

[truedelphi]

22. Just bookmark the post youmade

And when Gramm finally dies, you can claim the gift of prophesy!

We read it here first...

[beam me up scottie]

15. BREAKING:

:rofl:

[stray cat]

5. Death and frailty is something that unites us all

[GaYellowDawg]

10. No - death and frailty are things we have in common. They do not unite us.

I will never be united with Jesse Helms. I will someday be dead like him, but I will never be united with him.

[DeepModem Mom]

6. I don't think anyone here wants to beatify Snow. But posting things like...

may he roast in hell forever, turning on a hot spit, as punishment for his crimes against humanity does neither us nor our cause good, IMO. (That's an exact quote from no one -- just a composite.) I don't think honest, noninflammatory assessment of his career has been discouraged here.

[enlightenment]

9. I agree.

Honest assessment is one thing (although even that has been taking some major hits on DU lately) - nasty, spiteful, immature vindictiveness is another.

Unfortunately, it will only be a matter of time before someone uses this thread to post just that sort of tripe. They can't seem to help themselves.

[MedleyMisty]

13. Perhaps it would help if people flamed those sorts of posts in replies to them

and not on threads about "honest noninflammatory assessment". Because then it seems like what you have a problem with is the honest criticism and it's like you're equating "The dude wasn't a saint." to "Burn in hell."

[DeepModem Mom]

14. I would agree with that. nt

[SidneyCarton]

16. Jessie Helms was Garbage,

Strom Thurmond was a Bigoted piece of S*it and yes Mr. Snow was no saint. We however will have all summer and time beyond to discuss his death, let us allow his wife and children a moment of peace to grieve and mourn his passing, they will also have a long time to deal with his legacy in the months and years to come.

On Edit: Even if he isn't dead, Phil Gramm is an ass.

[tabasco]

32. Bwaaahahahahahahaha!!

I'm sure Tony Snow's fucking wife is surfing DU and getting emotional distress to learn that lots of people didn't like that piece of shit.

[last_texas_dem]

17. I agree

I don't see any value in people being excessively nasty, but I am more disgusted by people who seem to totally change their assessments of right-wing figures based upon their deaths. I don't understand the reason for heaping praise upon someone in death out of (I'm assuming) politeness or "custom" when you wouldn't have had anything positive to say about them while they were still living.

[ElboRuum]

24. We Have A Winner.

Well said.

[TexasObserver]

25. Agreed. Death is a natural time to review the lives of public figures.

Death is a natural time to review the lives of public figures. We don't have to be vicious in reviewing them, but we should at least be true to our beliefs.

Tony Snow may have been a wonderful family man. I know him for his public shilling for the Bushes for the past 20 years. I know him for his lying to the press. I condemn his entire public life. His personal life I simply don't know about.

This is the only post I've made about his passing. In truth, he lived a life committed to bad things, and that makes him a bad man. We are what we do, and being a happy go lucky fella doesn't make a person a good human.

[L0oniX]

29. Ding ding ding

[Zenlitened]

18. Well said. K&R - n/t

:thumbsup:

[elocs]

19. I still don't understand why the people here at DU have to obsess about these deaths,

go on and on about them and start thread after thread about them. You are free to protest about any squelching all you want, but the long and short of it is that this is a private message board and so Skinner get to make the decisions. There are other rules here at DU that some might consider to be "squelching", but that's the way it is. All are free to go elsewhere or to start their own message boards.

[barbtries]

20. well put.

i agree with you. the fact of a person's death does not suddenly elevate that person's character and it doesn't change the facts of that person's life.

[grannie4peace]

21. yes- you are correct

i agree wholeheartedly with your thoughts--

[Raster]

23. Well said, Thank you!

[jmowreader]

26. My opinion of the worst postmortem DU beatification: Tim Russert

Tim Russert was probably the worst blight ever to hit the journalistic landscape. While Russert was still alive, no one here liked him and most of us considered him a hack. I am going to bet that if I were to search the archives for the week before Russert died, I'd find at least five threads about Russert's latest journalistic atrocity--those threads were fairly common, because of Russert's operating style.

Then he died at work.

Next thing you knew, Russert was Edward R. Murrow.

The ONLY proper way for us to have handled the Russert death is generally called "respectful silence." How we did handle it made it look, at least to me, like we were in a Russert-lionizing contest with the freepers.

[MicaelS]

27. Because, what you view as an "honest assessment"

Will be viewed as an attack by others. The man's dead, nothing you can say now will change him or his beliefs in any way. And it is your opinion, nothing more or less. Liberals often decry the mean-spiritedness of conservatives. All of your "honesty" makes people on this side of politics look just as mean spirited as the other side. Aren't liberals supposed to be better people than conservatives?

And remember this if nothing else. Some day soon some liberal icon will pass, are you OK with all the conservative "honest assessment" that will spill out when that person dies? Or are you just that desperate to vent your spleen because that makes you feel better?

[GaYellowDawg]

30. Well, who cares?

If we withhold everything that's perceived as "an attack" by the right, we couldn't say one single word. Do I sound like I'm desperate to vent my spleen? Because if you think so, then you're reading a whole lot that's not there.

What I'm saying is that we ought to feel free to say that Tony Snow spent his life carrying water for the Bush administration. We ought to feel free to say that his legacy is the mess we're in today. After all, he enthusiastically helped create it, and never apologized for it.

As for the conservative "honest assessment," who gives a damn what they say on their boards? When a liberal icon dies, I'm not going to run over to Free Republic to see what they have to say about it. What I don't get is when Democrats on a Democratic board are lit into by people like you for telling the simple truth about Republicans. Why should you or I care what they think we tell the truth about them? Tony Snow was an obnoxious Republican mouthpiece, both before and after he got the White House job. Jesse Helms was a racist, sexist, uncaring politician who had less empathy than he had hair (a whole lot less). What's the big deal about being honest about who they were? If they'd lived better lives, we wouldn't have reason to say a thing about them.

[L0oniX]

28. Freedom of speech does not apply here. This site is owned and is not a public entity.

If you don't approve of the rules then you shouldn't be here. Example: No repuke who steps into my home is going to be allowed to say anything positive about Bush, the military, FOX, etc, and if they do then I will kick them out. If they protest then I will call the cops and have them removed. I have rules for my house and they don't include freedom of speech for repukes and people who are full of bull shit.

On the other hand, I too, have no sympathy for white house repuke shill liars, dead or alive.

[GaYellowDawg]

31. Well, no shit, Sherlock - I didn't say a thing about "free speech."

And why shouldn't I protest something I don't like? It's not like I put up 100 posts on it - I said my piece and then left it alone. And your house is a bad analogy. DU isn't a single-family dwelling where one person sets all the rules. It's a community, and people speak up in a community when they're both pleased and displeased with an aspect of it. If you don't like that, then take a hike.

[warren pease]

33. It worked for Fat Timmy...

Although he was a craven toady Bushie suck-up in life, he magically became the greatest journalist of the past 50 years -- possibly of all time -- simply because his heart stopped beating.

There's been a hell of a lot of great, great reporters who are now dead. Take the late I.F. Stone as just one brilliant example of what an actual reporter does.

Why coronation for this fraud?

Because he did his particular job better than anybody else ever had. His job being to present the most preposterous bullshit from the administration's stable of serial liars as gospel and never trouble them with any significant follow-up questions.

And to seal the deal, he kept any dissenting voices either off the air entirely or presented them as objects of ridicule and scorn.

Job well done, Timmy. Now you and Snow can spend eternity shooting the shit and laughing your asses off at the gullible rubes who bought all that crap.


wp