Anyone know Latin?

[shraby]

I need this translated:
Nulier paratam esse dicit cum conjugo vivere;
resquedum fit., eidem sacramenta denego.

Thank you in advance.

[conspirator]

1. I don't know. But conjugo must be "married" or "couple" nt

[shraby]

2. That's a start! Thanks

[TechBear_Seattle]

5. I'm guessing it is the verb "conjugare", to be joined together

"Cum conjugo vivere" - with, "I married", "to live"

Actually, that might translate as, "I married for life," as in "till death do we part."

[Tangerine LaBamba]

3. It's sort of nonsense,

not really good Latin.

This is the best I can make of it:

Nulier prepared to be told when to unite to live ; resquedum fit. eidem oath to refuse.

I don't really understand it.

[TechBear_Seattle]

4. Let me try...

I recognize most of it

(Something) has been said with (about?) to live as married;
(property?) happened/instituted, they (?) refused to commit (?)

What is the context?

[shraby]

6. It's from a Catholic church record among

many I'm putting online. Here's the page it's on:

<>

[muriel_volestrangler]

7. First word will be 'mulier' - woman or wife

and I'd say the first words of the second line is 'usquedum' - 'until'

So, with what others have suggested above, how about:

The woman (Mulier) says (dicit) she is prepared (paratam esse) to live (vivere) with her husband (cum conjugo); until (usquedem) that is done (fit), I deny (denego) her (or him) (eidem) the sacraments (sacramenta).

eadem is feminine accusative of "the same". However, looking at the handwriting, I'd say it's possible it is 'eidem' - which would be the dative, and that would, I think, be the case to use with 'deny' ("I deny to her"). However, the masculine and feminine are both 'eidem' - so who's getting the sacraments denied is a bit unclear.

*on edit: 'eadem' is feminine nominative, not the accusative (which would be 'eandem'), so it's definitely not that (and the more I think, the more the dative would be the only logical case - 'sacramenta' is in the accusative, since it's the thing, and 'eidem' the dative the person - same as with 'dare' = 'to give'). But still not definitive on who's had them denied.

[shraby]

8. You're right, that is an M.

I'll fix that on the transcription.

[shraby]

10. My guess is it should be him as

she is willing to live with him, but he is still living separately. So the sacraments would be denied him for not obeying his vows to her and the church.

[muriel_volestrangler]

14. Looking at the English above it,

it's a description of Carolina Frenzel, who lives 'here', while her husband Anton lives in "St. Mag." (?) If the rector (?) "J.H." that appears after the Latin is 'here', then I'd guess it's Carolina who's being denied - unless that's the rector of "St. Mag" (St. Margaret's?)

[Bear down under]

17. That looks pretty right to me

Though the woman says she is prepared to live "cum conjugo", which I take to be "in marriage" - literally "with marriage". "With her husband" would be "cum marito" ; but the meanng is much the same, that she is willing to get back together with her estranged husband.

But until they do get together again, "J.H. rector" -- presumably the parish priest -- has denied the sacraments. As you say, "eidem" is ambiguous; but unless hubby actually lives in J.H.'s parish he would be out of his jurisdiction, so I take it that he has refused them to her.

Which seems pretty harsh of him, as she is willing to resume her marriage. (Presumably hubby is not, though the record doesn't actually say that.) But then the RCC has always looked askance at broken marriages.. :-(

With most of the entry in English, why would he have recorded his judgment in Latin? To make it official?

[TechBear_Seattle]

9. Aha! Mulier, not nulier. "Wife" or "mistress"

And the second word looks like "paratamesse", which I think means "was provided" or "appointed."

Mulier paratamesse dicit cum conjugo vivere;
usque dum fit, eidem sacramenta denego.

Mistress was presented with words of marriage for life;
As has happened before, she refused the sacrament.

Interesting!


Added: I found this tool useful in the translation.

[shraby]

11. I agree that paratamesse is one word, but

usque dum is also one word on the document. Would it make a difference in the meaning if it was usquedum as opposed to usque dum?

[muriel_volestrangler]

12. "paratam esse" appears, as 2 words, in the bible

which is handy, because that means we get a reliable translation:

2 Corinthians 9 v. 5:
necessarium ergo existimavi rogare fratres ut praeveniant ad vos et praeparent repromissam benedictionem hanc paratam esse sic quasi benedictionem non quasi avaritiam

"So I thought it necessary to urge the brothers to visit you in advance and finish the arrangements for the generous gift you had promised. Then it will be ready as a generous gift, not as one grudgingly given."
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20corinthians%209:5;&version=31;

(or "that the same might be ready, ..." in the KVJ

I do wonder if that's a 'se' that's hovering above that line, with an 'insert' symbol. That might make sense, as in "she said herself to be ready", with a rather literal translation.

[shraby]

13. I see that too, would that then be

paratam se esse

[muriel_volestrangler]

15. I think so

Google can come up with that word order and choice being used a few times, so it looks good.

[shraby]

16. It looks like the du'ers are going to

come through for me. If you'd like to see what I'm doing, the whole census is on my site here at this address..it's a county genealogical site.

<http://www.2manitowoc.com/1906chcensus.html>

[Davis_X_Machina]

18. Here you go....

"The woman declares that she was prepared to live with her husband. Until this state of affairs comes to pass, I am refusing the sacraments to same." (Whether it's the husband, or the wife, who is being denied the sacraments, I can't tell -- eidem is masculine, feminine and neuter. You need a canon lawyer, not a Latinist for that.)

(I am assuming that coniugo is some sort of masculine, second decelension by-form of coniunx, coniugis, c. 'spouse' The standard of Latinity among parish priests varied widely.)

I do this for a living.....

[shraby]

19. Thank you so much!! This is the translation

I will go with.