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Almost 7 years after 9/11; The Bush Admin puts bin Laden's driver on trial

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Botany Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-19-08 11:35 PM
Original message
Almost 7 years after 9/11; The Bush Admin puts bin Laden's driver on trial
Edited on Sat Jul-19-08 11:44 PM by Botany
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/bin-ladens-driver-is-in-the-dock-but-americas-war-on-terror-is-on-trial-872413.html



We have won the war on terror! U S A! U S A! U S A! The man was making $200 per month too.

By Leonard Doyle in Washington
Sunday, 20 July 2008


Salim Hamdan, Osama bin Laden's personal driver, will enter a specially built courtroom in Guantanamo Bay tomorrow for the first full trial of any of the hundreds of detainees to have been sent to America's infamous prison camp since the 9/11 attacks nearly seven years ago.

Instead of one of al-Qa'ida's top leaders in captivity – such as Khalid Sheikh Mohammed – the accused in the first US military tribunal since the Second World War is a 39-year-old Yemeni, whose lawyers say he belongs on a psychiatric ward rather than in jail. Heightening the irony, a military judge has overruled prosecutors and decided that Mr Hamdan's lawyers can question the alleged mastermind of the September 2001 attacks and other possible witnesses about the driver. The judge threatened to delay the trial if prosecutors did not arrange this over the weekend.

Even the US does not claim that the driver and sometime mechanic, who earned a mere $200 (£100) a month, was a major terror figure. But prosecutors allege that he carried weapons used by al-Qai'da and helped to spirit Bin Laden out of Afghanistan after the fall of the Taliban. If convicted, he could find himself in prison for life.

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Mind_your_head Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-19-08 11:40 PM
Response to Original message
1. Sounds like a sham with a' kangaroo court' to boot
Will this nonsense EVER end? *sigh*
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Ichingcarpenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-19-08 11:42 PM
Response to Original message
2. Show trials for the elections



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Rosa Luxemburg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-19-08 11:43 PM
Response to Original message
3. so where IS Bin Ladin
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Botany Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-19-08 11:48 PM
Response to Reply #3
6. Why do you hate America?
"they" are pissed at this guy because bin Laden gave him his "sat-phone" knowing that the
Americans were tracking it .... the driver walked west using bin Laden's phone and then bin Laden
went east into Pakistan ......
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Rosa Luxemburg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-19-08 11:50 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. we don't have very good tracking systems
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Botany Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-19-08 11:52 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. bin Laden knew his Sat - phone was being tracked
On somethings we have very good tracking.
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Rosa Luxemburg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-19-08 11:54 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. tracking the wrong people usually
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The_Casual_Observer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-19-08 11:44 PM
Response to Original message
4. Mission Accomplished alright. Done in the grand american style too.
All that just to try a half ass Rochester guy. Who are they trying to kid?

This is what they do with the money they wring out of us on April 15th.
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TexasObserver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-19-08 11:45 PM
Response to Original message
5. Bush is about to find out he's milked that cow dry.
Edited on Sat Jul-19-08 11:46 PM by TexasObserver
Bush has been directly responsible for the unnecessary killings of more Americans than UBL. Americans know this, and now see Bush as a more dangerous threat to our country than any outsider.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-20-08 12:06 AM
Response to Original message
10. It's like getting Al Capone's paper boy
and torturing him.
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happyslug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-20-08 02:14 AM
Response to Reply #10
11. I read the Elliot Nest Book about the "Untouchables" and Al Capone
The Fed, Elliot Nest, could NOT understand one of the persons he was questioning. The Wittiness fully supported Capone. Why? The wittiness was NOT a member of Capone's operation or anyone Capone had to bride to stay in business. Ten year before (c1924) he had been a Newspaper boy selling Newspapers at a penny a piece (The Newspaper Company received MOST of that Cent, he had to sell a large number of Papers. The Kid was from a poor family and was put out to work to earn some money for the family (And this was in the "Boom" of the 1920s NOT the Great Depression that Followed).

Anyway, Capone came out of a building to go to his car (I believe it was the courthouse but it has been years since I read the Book) and ask the kid for a paper and gave the kid a $50 bill. The kid said he could not make change for a Fifty and Capone said "Did I ask for Change" and drove off in his Automobile. For that fifty Capone bought that Kid for the rest of his life. Instead of taking home to his mother a dollar or two (Remember we are taking of the 1920s) he brought home $50.

Bin Laden has done the same, he has provided a lot of modern convince for the people who are hiding him. Bin laden provided them with Aid against the Soviet Union in the 1980s, and helped them set up the Taliban run Government of pre-2001 Afghanistan. When the US invaded Afghanistan these same people hid him, do to all the "Good" they believe Bin Laden had done for them. You may disagree with what Bin Laden done was "Good" but his previous assistance was like Capone giving that Kid the $50, aid when they recipient really needed it. Just like that kid, the Pathans that made up most, if not all, of the Taliban think highly of Bid Laden. Bush, like Nest, can NOT comprehend the idea that past good deeds more then overcome any promise of money from the US today. This is the problem we have been running out head against since we invaded Afghanistan, bin Laden provided all types of assistance to the Pathans tribesmen, without any strings being attached. The Pathans do NOT attach to countries, but to people, and the support we provided to the Pathans does NOT matter UNLESS the people who provided that assistance ask for that help personally (and we had run the assistance through Pakistan's intelligence Service, a Service full of bin Laden Supporters or other supporters of what bin Laden wants). It is the personnel touch that you win real friends with, and the US dealt with the Pathans as any corporate leadership handles its workers, with complete indifference (Many of the Afghans blame the US for the Taliban, for after the Soviet Union left Afghanistan the US drop all support and the War loads fought over the caress that was Afghanistan, again the Pakistan Intelligence Service provided support, leading to the Taliban taking over Afghanistan, but bin Laden helped the Taliban at the same time. Thus the US has no source of Intelligence on bin Laden for the US has no common grounds to talk with the Natives on both sides of that border. Without that common grounds to talk the US has no support.

Sorry, your mention of AL Capone's Paperboy just brought that story to me and I had to comment on it. It is like arresting that newspaper boy, bought and paid for when he needed it not when some bureaucrat THOUGHT he needed some support.
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Botany Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-20-08 07:08 AM
Response to Reply #11
12. I don't know if it is true but bin Laden when he was trapped in Dec. 2001
Told the Afghan tribe that was supposed to be watching the "back door" so he couldn't
escape into Pakistan that we were going to pay them (The Afghani people) $5000 a man
...... bin Laden told them that he would give 'em $20,000 each and Toyota pick up truck.

And bin Laden got away :shrug:
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wildbilln864 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-20-08 10:19 PM
Response to Reply #12
21. Also in December, 2001...
this. :hi:
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NNN0LHI Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-20-08 07:14 AM
Response to Reply #11
13. My mother used to go to weddings where he would pass silver dollars out to all the kids
She still has some.

Don
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happyslug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-20-08 09:30 PM
Response to Reply #13
18. I assume you mean Capone, not bin Laden
I do it myself, using pronouns excessively, I have to watch myself and often type the name over the hes and shes I used when I originally write. One should only use a pronoun AFTER you have used a noun the pronoun is referring to. Thus my comment, were you referring to Capone or bin Laden when you used the term "he". The pronoun "She" is used only after you used the term "My Mother" so the person you are referring to in using the pronoun "She" is Clear. That is NOT true of the pronoun "He" in your Sentence, for no male is mentioned and by tradition "he" does NOT include a Female (i.e. you using the tern "he" to refer to someone other than your Mother).

The last male I referred to in my thread you are responding to was the Paperboy. I can not see the Paperboy giving out Silver Dollars at weddings in the 1920s. The nest to last person I mention was Capone, but the overall thread was about bin Laden. I doubt bin Laden was giving out Silver Dollars, the stories I heard is he give out Ben Franklins (i.e. $100 bills, just like the US does). Thus that leaves Capone, but one has to be careful when using pronouns, make sure you use it only in reference to the previous noun and no others. Better is to replace them with the name or noun you are referring to, it reduces confusion.

More a notice to others to watch for excessive use of pronouns then a comment on your comment. The excessive use of pronouns is common, I even do it. One has to make an effort to make sure one does NOT use pronouns excessively, and most people use them excessively.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-20-08 01:14 PM
Response to Reply #11
15. That's a great story, happyslug.
:)
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happyslug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-20-08 11:48 PM
Response to Reply #15
22. It is in Elliot Nest's Book.
Nest's book the Untouchables, was more a Novel on what he did to tie up Capone while the IRS was preparing the Income tax case against Capone. If and when you read the book, understand what Nest's role was, he was NOT out to get Capone, but to tie up Capone's Resources. Nest;s confiscation of Capone's Trucks was the heart of the attack. That Confiscation so tied up Capone's operation s Capone's organization had to come up with trucks to replace the Trucks Nest confiscated in his raids (The trucks were all confiscated during raids were illegal alcohol was found on them, thus made them forfeit as an instrument of Crime).

Nest was one of a three way attack on Capone. The other was the Arrest of Capone for carrying a gun in Philadelphia in 1929 for which Capone served a year in Eastern State Penitentiary outside Philadelphia. Capone thus was out of the day to day operation of his "business" while Nest was going after Capone's Breweries AND trucks. Thus Capone was facing a three way attack, the first, and most effective, was the IRS looking into his income via how Capone was living, calculating Capone's income by the cost of his cars, his house (Actually a floor in a High end hotel), his clothing, his activities etc. This took a lot of manpower but no results for months and then slammed on Capone all at once in the indictment for Income Tax evasion.

The second attack was Capone's arrest on a Technical Charge and sentencing him to the Max sentence on that technical charge. That was the Charge of carrying a pistol without a permit in Philadelphia on his way from New York City to Chicago via the Pennsylvania Railroad (remember we are talking about the 1920s, airplanes were just starting and the First cross country Road to be paved was only finished in 1926 and went through Springfield Illinois NOT Chicago, not there were paved roads from US 30, the road finished in 1926, to Chicago, but most were paved over dirt roads NOT what we would call two lane highways let alone anything to compare with the interstate Highway system, thus most people went by Train, and why Capone was Caught with a Pistol in Philadelphia).

The third attack was at the production and distribution of Beer. This was Nest's job. This attack on been destruction and production was the least important from a conviction point of view, but it was the most obvious attack on Capone at the time of this three way attack. Thus Nest's name was in the News, Capone new of the Nest and what Nest was doing.

Compare the above with bin Laden. We have restricted his movements, but no where near how we restricted Capone's maneuver (i.e. bin Laden can still get messages out without having to use short coded messages, as Capone did, but bin Laden can NOT go where he wants to go or even where he is needed by his supporters. Do to Bush's need for any good news to the capture of bin Laden, Bush has revealed all of the methods we can use to capture bin Laden, and bin Laden has made sure he can NOT be traced. Bin Laden has no Cell Phone or Satellite phone, so it is impossible to track his where about using electronic surveillance.

Bin Laden does use a Computer and Video Tape, but he makes sure they are transmitted from his hideaway by foot messengers (or by car) and when the messages is far from bin Laden, the message is sent either by E-mail, or by Snail mail (and the old fashion phone booth drop is still used by bin Laden). The attempt to figure out what bin Laden is doing is hard. Bin Laden made use Al Queda was more a financing and leadership organization then a command organization. Bin Laden provides guidance and money, but actual implementation of any plan is left to people in the field. For 9/11 bin Laden knew of the date of the Attack (We know this for the CIA intercepted a Phone Call from him to one of the wives of his Father that he, bin Laden, would NOT be able to talk to her for a while, something big was about to happen). Bin Laden fled Afghanistan, but survive probably in Pakistan.

Thus Bush is reduced to doing what Nest did to Capone, tie up resources. The problem is sooner or later Bush is going to run out of Resources, while bin Laden still has his (bin Laden is reported to have a huge source of money from Saudi Arabia. Nest's (And Bush's) tactic of going after the resources of the enemy only work if you can dry up the source of the enemy's Resources. In the case of Nest, that was done by locking up Capone for a year on a Firearm Charge AND going after Capone on Income Tax evasion. How are we tying up bin Laden's resources? How many gallons of gasoline did you buy last month? In or around 9/11 when Gasoline was less then $2 a gallon, the report was 1-2 Cents a gallon was going to bin Laden. The reason for this was the House of Saud and the rest of the Arab Exporters from the Persian Gulf was paying bin Laden about 10 cents out of every gallon. Other countries did NOT pay this premium, thus if you add the two together it came to under 5 cents out of every gallon of oil sold through out the world.

The reasons for the payments is simple, the oil producing region of Saudi Arabia, the Arab Kingdoms of Kuwait, United Arab Emirates (UAE), the Barsa Region of Iraq and the rest of the Arab Persian Gulf Nations have a population problem. About 60-70% (and probably more, some sources say 90%) of these countries population are Shiite, while the leadership is Sunni. The Shiites look to Iran for Leadership and the Gulf. The leadership of these countries all fear Iran AND the majority of their population. If free elections were held, the people of these countries would pick pro-Iranian populations (As did Barsa region of Iraq when Elections were held after Iraq fell to the US, elections originally opposed by the US, but the Shiites forces the US to accept).

As to the Sunnis population of these areas, the Sunnis are all tied in with the ruling elite, but many have themselves turned radical, i.e. pro-bin Laden. The recent increase in the price of oil has permitted these Governments to pay off the Shiites and the Sunnis, but the ruling elite want to keep the Sunnis supporting the elite, and the Sunni radicals demand support for bin Laden. Thus all of these counties pay Al Queda money (probably via payments made to certain Sunni members of the Ruling elite, but with full knowledge that those members will send the money to bin Laden). For this reason the only way to cut off the money to bin Laden to to reduce world wide demand for oil, and the best way to do that is to reduce US demand. Bush absolutely oppose this for it would also hurt his oil buddies. Thus we are stuck with Elliot Nest tactic of 0going after Capone's trucks and breweries. Unfortunately, unlike Capone who had a problem getting Trucks and Brewers do o the fact the IRS was after him, bin Laden's source of money is almost untouched. We have to cut back oil usage so that the Persian Gulf Arab states have less money to send to bin Laden. Bush has done NOTHING to cut back oil usage, and will not, thus the war against bin Laden will continue and will end only when the US accept that we either have to cut back on imported oil OR the US goes Bankruptcy (And Bush is working on the last option).
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wildbilln864 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-20-08 10:16 PM
Response to Reply #11
20. I'm sorry but...
I always thought it was Elliot "Ness"? :shrug:
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happyslug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-20-08 11:58 PM
Response to Reply #20
23. You are probably right, I am going by memory, I did NOT do a Computer Check
If I had done so I would have caught the Error.

Wekipedia on Ness:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eliot_Ness
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trof Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-20-08 07:24 AM
Response to Original message
14. Bet that's got al Qaida shakin' in their sandals.
"Holy Shit, Osama! They got the chauffeur! They'll be coming after the butler next!"
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gatorboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-20-08 01:17 PM
Response to Original message
16. bin Laden's florist is in deep shit.
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Botany Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-20-08 01:22 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. bush's G.W.O.T.
Global war on terror. When I first read the article I kept thinking it was a
joke ..... bin Laden's driver?????????????????

Please I want republicans to run on how they are making the world safer.
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struggle4progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-20-08 10:04 PM
Response to Original message
19. Detainee's Trial in Military System Begins Today (WaPo)
By Jerry Markon
Washington Post Staff Writer
Monday, July 21, 2008; Page A03

... Unlike a civilian trial, even if the defendant is acquitted of conspiracy and material support of terrorism charges, he probably will not be released. Hamdan has been designated an "enemy combatant" by the military, a status that prosecutors said would be unchanged by an acquittal even if international pressure mounts for his release ...

"This was supposed to be the premier system for bringing to justice the masterminds of the worst crime ever committed on U.S. soil," said Tom Malinowski, Washington advocacy director for Human Rights Watch. "The only result in seven years was the conviction of an Australian kangaroo trapper, who is now free" ...

Hamdan's trial will start with questioning of the 13 prospective jurors, all military officers. At least five jurors will be seated, and a two-thirds majority is needed for conviction. The same jury would determine a sentence ...

Prosecutors indicated they would rely on incriminating statements Hamdan allegedly made to interrogators in the two years after his capture in Afghanistan in late 2001. An FBI agent testified at a pretrial hearing that Hamdan admitted being aware of bin Laden's involvement in the Sept. 11 attacks and that he helped the al-Qaeda leader escape after Sept. 11 and after the 1998 bombings of two U.S. embassies in East Africa. Hamdan's lawyers continued to insist that he was a driver and mechanic who relied on bin Laden only for a paycheck ...

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/07/20/AR2008072001604.html?hpid=moreheadlines
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Jack Rabbit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-21-08 12:23 AM
Response to Original message
24. Does any one here think the White House chauffeur should be charged with war crimes?
Then what makes this guy public enemy number 1?
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wildbilln864 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-22-08 11:35 AM
Response to Original message
25. kick! nt
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