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Memo to Obama, McCain: No One Wins in a War - Howard Zinn

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slipslidingaway Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-20-08 10:15 AM
Original message
Memo to Obama, McCain: No One Wins in a War - Howard Zinn
http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2008/07/17/10427/

"Barack Obama and John McCain continue to argue about war. McCain says to keep the troops in Iraq until we “win” and supports sending more troops to Afghanistan. Obama says to withdraw some (not all) troops from Iraq and send them to fight and “win” in Afghanistan.

For someone like myself, who fought in World War II, and since then has protested against war, I must ask: Have our political leaders gone mad? Have they learned nothing from recent history? Have they not learned that no one “wins” in a war, but that hundreds of thousands of humans die, most of them civilians, many of them children?


....Yes, Al Qaeda — a relatively small but ruthless group of fanatics — was apparently responsible for the attacks. And, yes, there was evidence that Osama bin Laden and others were based in Afghanistan. But the United States did not know exactly where they were, so it invaded and bombed the whole country. That made many people feel righteous. “We had to do something,” you heard people say...

...We should be asking the presidential candidates: Is our war in Afghanistan ending terrorism, or provoking it? And is not war itself terrorism?"








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Royal Oak Rog Donating Member (506 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-20-08 10:24 AM
Response to Original message
1. Why isn't this guy given ten minutes a week to talk
to the nation? We would be in an infinitely better place! I Love Howard Zinn!
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slipslidingaway Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-20-08 10:37 AM
Response to Reply #1
4. Yes it would be :( ...
"...Yes, we had to do something. But not thoughtlessly, not recklessly. Would we approve of a police chief, knowing there was a vicious criminal somewhere in a neighborhood, ordering that the entire neighborhood be bombed? There was soon a civilian death toll in Afghanistan of more than 3,000 — exceeding the number of deaths in the Sept. 11 attacks. Hundreds of Afghans were driven from their homes and turned into wandering refugees..."

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Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-20-08 12:05 PM
Response to Reply #1
11. For the same reason Noam Chomsky and
Dennis Kucinich don't. Our ruling class doesn't like them because they make them look bad.
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Rydz777 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-20-08 10:32 AM
Response to Original message
2. A quagmire in Afghanistan
Zinn is right. Obama may get us out of Iraq, but if he gets us deeper into Afghanistan, he will create his own quagmire. We need to end all these neo-con adventures.
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slipslidingaway Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-20-08 10:38 AM
Response to Reply #2
5. Agree n/t
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CountAllVotes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-20-08 11:13 AM
Response to Reply #2
8. couldn't agree more
seems that is all these politicians know - that word - war war war war and more war. I'm disappointed at best. :(

:kick:

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Occam Bandage Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-20-08 10:35 AM
Response to Original message
3. I dunno. I think women won in Afghanistan.
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slipslidingaway Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-20-08 10:52 AM
Response to Reply #3
6. Some did, but will it last? n/t
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Occam Bandage Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-20-08 10:54 AM
Response to Reply #6
7. If we let Afghanistan fall back to the most oppressive RW theocracy on Earth,
it certainly will not.
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stimbox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-20-08 11:15 AM
Response to Reply #3
9. Women in Afghanistan were winning until the u.s. backed the mujahideen.
Edited on Sun Jul-20-08 11:35 AM by stimbox
...In 1965 People's Democratic Party of Afghanistan (PDPA), a Soviet-backed socialist organization was formed. The same year also saw the formation of the first women's group, the Democratic Organization of Afghan Women (DOAW). The main objectives of this women's group wasto eliminate illiteracy among women, ban forced marriages, and do away with bride price.

The Second Era of Change
The second era of intense women‘s reform occurred in the late 1970s. The 1970s saw a rise in women's education, faculty in the universities, and representatives in the Parliament. (Dupree, 1986) The year 1978 saw the rise to power of the controversial PDPA. It is during the PDPA rule that rapid socialand economic change, echoing some of the 1920s themes, was implemented and mass literacy for women and men of all ages was introduced. (Moghadam, 1997) Massive land reform programs, along with abolition of bride price and raising of marriage age were also part of the PDPA agenda. In October1978 a decree was issued with the explicit intention of ensuring equal rights for women. Minimum age of marriage was set at 16 for girls and 18 years for boys. The content of decree number 7 and the coercion of women into education were perceived by some as —unbearable interference in domestic life.“ (Hanne, 1990) Again, the revolutionary pace of social change caused concern among the mullahs and tribal chiefs in the interiors. They viewed compulsory education, especially for women, as going against the grain of tradition, anti-religious and a challenge to male authority. As Moghadam (1997) reports, incidents of shooting of women in western clothes, killing of PDPA reformers in the rural areas and general harassment of women social workers increased. As Marsden (2002:24) points out, —The PDPA‘suse of force in bringing the changes to fruition, combined with a brutal disregard for societal and religious sensitivities, resulted in massive backlash from the rural population.“ Journal of International Women‘s Studies Vol 4 #3 May 2003 6 Page 7

Interestingly, or ironically, during this turbulent —democratic“ Soviet-supported regime women'sissues moved center stage and implementation of reforms was enforced, up to a point. During this era women were employed in significant numbers in Universities, private corporations, the airlines and as doctors and nurses. But for the nation as a whole, it was a period of anarchy and destruction. Beginning with the Soviet occupation in December 1979, Afghanistan witnessed a decade long war. Fueled by external forces, funding, and political interests by the United States, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan and China, the Mujahideen fought against the Soviets. The Afghan countryside was the breeding grounds forthese —freedom fighters.“ Suspicious of the Soviet socialist agenda to annihilate the traditional cultureand religion of Afghanistan, the Mujahideen was able to gather forces to form their own revolutionary army. Their battle cry was a war in the name of Islam, emphasizing a reversal of all socialist policies including those that guaranteed women liberties through education and employment.

In 1989, when the Soviets left Afghanistan, the country was in disarray and became the site for civil war with the government transfer of power in 1992.That year the Mujahideen took over Kabul and declared Afghanistan an Islamic state. According to the US Department of State (1995), —In 1992 women were increasingly precluded from public service. In conservative areas in 1994, many women appear in public only if dressed in a complete head-to-toe garment with a mesh covered opening for their eyes." This was only to be the start of the apartheid against women. As the author of Zoya‘s Story (2002:63) claimed, —Far from rejoicing that the Russians had been defeated, Grandmother told me that a new worse Devil had come to my country. There was a popular saying around this time: —Rid us of these seven donkeys and give us back our cow. The donkeys were the seven factions of the Mujahideen, and the cow was the puppet regime .“ According to Zoya (2002), the Mujahideen entered Kabul and burnt down the university, library and schools. Women were forced to wear the burqa and fewer women were visible on television and in professional jobs. The period from 1992-1996 saw unprecedented barbarism by the Mujahideen wherestories of killings, rapes, amputations and other forms of violence were told daily. To avoid rape and forced marriages, young women were resorting to suicide.


http://tinyurl.com/afghan-women


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slipslidingaway Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-20-08 02:24 PM
Response to Reply #9
13. Thanks for adding that link...and the women in Iraq have not fared
well since the US invasion.

:(
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Overseas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-20-08 02:30 PM
Response to Reply #9
14. Thank you for reminding us of this.
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frazzled Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-20-08 12:03 PM
Response to Original message
10. I don't think he needs to tell that to Obama
I recall vividly when Petraeus was being questioned by the Senate Foreign Relation Committee some months back that Obama's whole line of questioning had to do with what "success" in Iraq would consist--would it mean every terrorist eradicated (an obvious impossibility)? He was very clear in stating that there was no "win" to be defined here.

Even today, in his remarks on Afghanistan, he defined success as creating stability and making it difficult for Al Qaeda to plan attacks (cutting off funding, taking out training camps), etc.

I find it Naderesque to be criticizing both candidates on the same level here. Anyone who has listened to Obama knows he does not believe there are "wins" of the "vanquish" sort in unconventional wars. McCain at least pretends there are.
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slipslidingaway Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-20-08 02:33 PM
Response to Reply #10
15. People always need to be reminded and questioned and one
question that is rarely discussed in detail.

"...We should be asking the presidential candidates: Is our war in Afghanistan ending terrorism, or provoking it?..."


Here's the video from the interview this morning...

http://www.cbsnews.com/sections/i_video/main500251.shtml?id=4275914n
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-20-08 12:12 PM
Response to Original message
12. I'll second that.
Not that I think either give a shit.
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slipslidingaway Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-20-08 02:37 PM
Response to Original message
16. Afghanistan hit by record number of bombs
http://www.airforcetimes.com/news/2008/07/airforce_bomb_oef_071708/

Air Force and allied warplanes are dropping a record number of bombs on Afghanistan targets.

For the first half of 2008, aircraft dropped 1,853 bombs — more than they released during all of 2006 and more than half of 2007’s total — 3,572 bombs...

Information from the Air Force shows that in June warplanes released 646 bombs — the second-highest monthly total for Afghanistan or Iraq. The record was set in August 2007, when 670 bombs fell on Afghanistan.

As high as those numbers are, they may understate the intensity of the combat. The statistics do not include cannon rounds shot by fighters or AC-130 gunships, Hellfire and other small rockets launched by warplanes, and assaults by helicopters. In close-quarter firefights where friendly soldiers could be wounded if bombs are used, cannon fire and missiles are often the preferred alternative..."





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tomp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-21-08 08:12 AM
Response to Original message
17. even brilliant minds like Zinn's miss the fact ....
...that the 911 attacks have been thoroughly underinvestigated. the best that can be said about 911 is that we don't know who is responsible for the attacks. there are so many unanswered questions that to advocate war in afghanistan (like obama is doing) is totally irresponsible.

I agree with Zinn about the uselessness and criminality of war but he is missing a good piece of the picture on this one.
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slipslidingaway Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-21-08 09:23 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. I agree that 9/11 has been thoroughly underinvestigated and
Zinn glances over that fact in this short article, maybe just to move onto the question about fighting a war against terrorism.

:shrug:

"...We should be asking the presidential candidates: Is our war in Afghanistan ending terrorism, or provoking it? And is not war itself terrorism?"






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tomp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-22-08 06:22 AM
Response to Reply #18
19. true. my reflexes always go to...
...we shouldn't be in afghanistan in the first place because we don't know enough about 911. it's a point that is generally made only when i make it. that gives me a pretty good excuse for my reflexes.
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slipslidingaway Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-22-08 10:38 AM
Response to Reply #19
20. And your point is certainly not insignificant !!! :) n/t
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