I am no economist, but I still have a plan.

[zeemike]

A plan to save us form the coming crisis and return the dollar to it’s former strength
Now I know some here will say it is stupid or silly and that is fine, I make no claims as an expert. But don’t just tell me that it is stupid give me your reasons for it…that is what is important for learning which I am willing to do.

The plan is simple (as you might have guessed) A Jubilee Year.
That is when all debt is forgiven.
And in this same Jubilee year a return to the prices and wages of the 1950s, fixed at first, to a point in our near history when we had a growing middle class.
I know it would be hard for the people that had a lot because they would louse out on all that loand out money but it would realy be a New Deal for the 21st century.

[Lex]

1. If you can convince China to do this with the debt we owe them

then I say it might work!

[zeemike]

7. The best thing would be a world Jubilee

But that just could happen if we were going to do it.
But there are lots of dollars out there now an the debt we would pay them would make them rich for sure but would that really change things?
They would have to use those dollars to buy things with like our new electric autos or mass transit system.

[Yupster]

32. Not to mention the millions of elderly investors

who don't want to risk their money in the stock market so they buy bonds loaning their money to companies and the government for a safe, stable return.

Sorry grandma. Your life savings have just been wiped out but it sure was nice of you to forgive all those debts that were owed to you.

[zeemike]

35. First there is a difference between a loan and a debt

A loan is where you borrow to buy property or goods.
But when you use peoples money to make money it is an investment.

But so what, If the prices were returned to the 1950s or 60s then they could live quite nicely on Social Security check. A thousand dollars a month with prices in the 50s would make them rich when you could by a new car for less than that.
But the benefits would be far ranching because it would make ALL old people well off not just the ones that had money in the bank when they retired...Can you imagine it if all old people were secure and did not have to worry where there next meal was coming from? What better a way could you honer your parents but to make them financially secure.

[Yupster]

36. DU is for sure not the place to go to get economic advice

so I'm not worried that this proposal would be implemented, or that people would think it made sense, but still, I'll respond anyway.

If I loan you $ 1,000 you can use it to buy crap or you could use it to invest in an oil stock. There isn't any difference to me. You owe me the money either way. I could use your interest payments to feed my 16 children or to hoard in my mattress. There isn't any difference.. You owe the money to me either way.

You seem to think there are magic price setting fairies going around setting prices on everything. That's kind of what I thought when I graduated college. That was back in the late 70's when Marxism was on the march around the world and all the history professors were Marxists and all us history majors graduated as Marxists. That lasted until we got our first jobs and realized how out of touch those professors were high among the clouds of academia. Just as an example, most of our oil comes from overseas. In the 60's oil was about 25 cents a gallon. So Nigeria is supposed to sell us oil for 25 cents a gallon all of the sudden? And Holland is supposed to forgive our debts because we're nice people?

My parents are quite financially secure but thatnks for thinking about them. The recent stock market losses have barely touched them since they are overwhelmingly invested in corporate and municipal bonds. They'll be financially secure as long as proposals like yours stay far away from them.

[zeemike]

39. But of course the wealthy will never let this happen.

Because there main concern is growing there wealth buy lending there money to those that don't have it and raking in the profits.
And the thing is that the poorer you are the more interest they charge you so they have made economic slaves of the powerless people.
It has been established that money is free speech so the poor are without a voice.

But let me give you a real life experience example of the price setting fairy;
In 1976 I was working at a plant that made synthetic fibers and it fired it's boilers on natural gas...there was a major pipeline that ran right by the plant.
One day at a meting they announced that they would shut down production for a week while they converted the boilers to burn oil, and some one asked why, because at the time we had an oil embargo and there was supposed to be an oil shortage...that was when there was lines at the gas pumps remember? and the answer was that there was a shortage of natural gas.
So being a curious person I went to the World Book Encyclopedia and looked up natural gas and to my surprise it told me that there were proven reserves of natural gas to last hundreds of years.

So I told this story to a ships captain I knew that operated out of the port of Mobil and he just laughed..he told me that there were tankers anchored off shore being paid 30,000 a day to wait because the storage was full.
So now it made sense they converted to oil to help our the oil companies who were claiming a shortage when there tanks were full.
Now if I am a marxist for thinking we are being played like a fish on a line then what does that make you who believe in the system because you are making money from the deception and the gouging that goes on.

[End Of The Road]

2. If you're running for office I'M GONNA VOTE FOR YOU!! nt

[Popol Vuh]

3. In my ancient culture

Every 52 years all debts were absolved.

[zeemike]

9. What culture is that?

But the Jubilee is a biblical thing it is one of the commandments that says "Remember the Sabbath and keep it holly" and part of that Sabbath was the Jubilee year (the 7x7 year) where all debt was forgiven and all land returned to it's owner.

[Popol Vuh]

16. Mesoamerican Culture

The Aztec referred to it as the "new fire". I forgot what others called it. In Mesoamerican cultures more than one calendar was used. The Mayan calendar used to determine the 52 year cycle was the Tun calender. The name of the Aztec calendar used in the 52 year cycle was the Xiuhpohualli calendar.

During the last five days of this cycle everybody observed silence, not going to work, all fires and sparks extinguished, breaking old pottery and all debts were absolved. It was a fresh start and a reset of the cosmos. Also, at the age of 52 in Native American culture you're regarded as an elder for having lived a 52 year cycle.

I think in the bible found in Leviticus 25:10 it describes a similar event every 50 years.

[zeemike]

19. That is interesting thanks for sharing that n/t

[Popol Vuh]

21. You're very welcome zeemike

And I think its very interesting too. Here, I remember a video on the subject of the Mayan calendar which mentions this. Just click the link below and advance the video to the 35min mark and watch the next 4 or 5 minutes.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8689261981090121097


:hi:

[zeemike]

22. For some reason I can't scroll down on that page

enough to get to the tool bar for the video.
Well I have dial up anyway but I will try it later.
But you have peaked my interest and I will do a little research on it.

[Popol Vuh]

23. Here's another link

Where the video doesn't take up as much of the webpage.

http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=The+Mayan+Calendar+Comes+North+01&sitesearch=#

[panader0]

4. My plan: Everybody quit whining!!

It's all in your mind! What? you didn't have your latte today? Was your local Starbuck's closed down? Boo Hoo!
:sarcasm:

[zeemike]

10. Is there a smiley for whining?

:shrug:

[Hippo_Tron]

28. Okay Phil Gramm, who let you in?

[mdmc]

5. better then my economic plan

work 70 hours per week until I die from an unprofitable disease.

[Captain Angry]

6. Moral hazard.

What possible incentive would there be for intelligent spending if the borrowers got to keep the product and not pay for it?

Let's say you're starting a business and need $50,000 of equipment. Who would lend you the money if there was the possibility that they wouldn't be paid back?

How many people would borrow and blow it in Vegas?

And, you do realize that there are other countries out there, right? How do you think the American economy would compete with the rest of the world if we kill all the banks and give away free money to the citizens?

You're definitely not an economist.

[zeemike]

12. No you are right and economist would never think of such a thing

Because they study how to make money with money and that flies in the face of what they do.

And if it were made to be a regular thing every 50 years then the lender would have to gt it back before ethe jubilee year. So what is wrong with that?
But what about the rest of the world? well the best thing for them would be to do the same, but if they did not then they would just have to deal with it.

And do you think that when the middle class was making a buck and a half an hour and had no debt and able to afford food clothing and shelter for the first time with no debt that they would be spending it all in Vegas?
I don't think so. I think it would be a load off there mind to know that they were free from the financial trap that they are in now. They just might give up on the fantasy of striking it rich and settle down to a peacefully and secure life which is what most people really want.

[Captain Angry]

13. Would you lend your money to somebody that might never have to pay it back?

$10.00?

$100.00?

$1000.00?

Many of the people that are in a financial trap put themselves there. They borrowed to buy stuff they didn't need or couldn't afford.

A lack of debt would not repair the poor wages, poor jobs, poor shelter, poor clothing. It would just open them up to creating new debt.

Yet the people who generated the money that was spent that put these people in debt would then themselves not have money.

The only group this is a win-win for is the retailers since people would spend and spend.

[zeemike]

15. You don't understand

The forgiveness of debt is just a one time thing in a single year, and if we adopted as the nation of Israel did when they came into the land of Ca na then it would be every 50 years.
So if you loaned someone 100,000 dollars in the first year you would have to get it back in less than 49 years.
What is wrong with that?

[HowHasItComeToThis]

8. ISN'T THERE SOMETHING ABOUT JEWS FORGIVING DEBT ON SOME HOLIDAY?

[zeemike]

14. It is called the Jubilee year

And originally was part of the Sabbath
Every seventh Day they rested...this was for mans sake
Every seventh year the land rested...for the lands sake
And every 7x7 or the 50th year all debt was forgiving and the land was returned to it's original owner...this was for the sake of the nation, to keep the big fish from gobbling up the little ones.

[undeterred]

11. Well, since they've made debt forgiveness via bankruptcy impossible

for the average person, this would be a good alternative.

[Speck Tater]

17. If people knew it was coming...

... in the months leading up to the jubilee people would try to borrow like mad, knowing they would never have to pay it back, but lenders would refuse to loan to anybody for any reason. Business would grind to a halt for months. People with loads of money would load up on gold or other relatively rare commodities because even after prices were adjusted, those rare commodities would be bid right back up again. The rich would find a way to protect their money and the poor would go right on being as poor as ever. The whole spiral of debt would start all over because people have become so accustomed to buying now and paying later. It would be a disaster.

on edit:

Think about this: resetting prices would be EXACTLY equivalent to replacing the dollar with a new denomination, call it the mini-dollar at ten-to-one. If you make $1,000 now, you'd make $100 mini-dollars the next day. A loaf of bread that cost $2.00 dollars today would cost 20 mini-cents tomorrow. Nothing at all would change except the number of zeros after each number on the bills you carry in your wallet. The REAL effect would be zilch.

Except, of course, that every bank and lending institution would be out of business, all commerce would be cash-and-carry only, so you couldn't buy a car or house.

[Popol Vuh]

18. I disagree

with the idea that it would be a disaster. The reason is because since for the most part you are correct with respect to the type monetary system we currently have. A system that not only relies upon debt, but is based upon debt. It would therefore be necessary to have a monetary system based upon real wealth - that is the goods/services.

This type system alone would far offset any inconveniences caused by a Jubilee year.

[zeemike]

20. Why would you have to replace the currency?

Just keep the same number of dollars we have now so the banks would have plenty of them to start with the new deal.
The people with money would find themselves paying far less for labor and goods so ir they lost in the new deal they could still prosper in the future

But this system of a Jubilee year has a proven record of working.
It was the economic system that the nation of Israel used for three hundred years of so and it made them very wealthy bu the time of Solomon.
And I have just learned it was also used by the Aztecs,, so it is not an untried system.
And by the way you can find a complete description of how the system worked in Leviticus, right down to what the price would be for land right before the Jubilee year. It is in great detail.

[Speck Tater]

29. This is rather a pointless argument anyway.

Since nothing even remotely resembling this idea will EVER become a reality.

[zeemike]

34. Never say never n/t

[dysfunctional press]

24. what about mortgages?

:shrug:

[zeemike]

26. That is the biggest part of debt forgiveness

And in a sense it is a transfer of wealth form the rich to the poor when the mortgages are forgiven.
But with the new values of goods and services they would have plenty of wealth to keep them in the luxury they have ben accustom to.
But the good it would do for the country far outweighs the pain the rich would have to bear.
And it is about time that they do something for there country.

[hfojvt]

25. 7-2-1, seven ridiculosities around two absurdities, wrapped by an impossibility

At least I think it would suck dogs. In the jubilee year the $35,000 that the bank owes me for my accounts would be 'forgiven'. Zip-zop there goes my life savings bye-bye :hi: Easy come, easy go. Actually it came by blood, sweat and tears, but who's counting?

[zeemike]

27. The bank is not in debt to you

You are letting them keep your money safe while they use it to make more money...and so you would not louse your money...but it would buy you a lot ore than it would now.

[hfojvt]

38. the heck they aren't

they borrow money from me and lend it out to other people, while keeping a certain amount in reserve. If everyone they lend money to gets to default, then what are they supposed to pay me back with? The leaves from their money tree?

[zeemike]

41. The Federal reserve has printed a whole bunch of money

And they insure your deposit so their will be no shortage of money in fact just the opisit...too much money.
And companies with employees will pay a whole lot less for labor and materials so they will need much less cash ot operate but still make a profit on there goods at much the same percentage. The profits will be lower in dollar amounts but so what if things cost less...there CE Os will still have the same lifestyle.

[Hannah Bell]

30. we already have a jubilee year. about every 20 years we get to bail out the banks.

[BlooInBloo]

31. I look forward to other magic pony stupid fucking ideas from you.

[zeemike]

33. Ooooh I am so intimidated by that. n/t

[Yupster]

37. It's not nice what he said, but

yours really is one of the stupider economic proposals that has been on DU.

[zeemike]

40. No what is really stupid is

Believing that every thing will be OK if we just keep doing the same thing over and over again.