Will Obama be to Afghanistan what LBJ was to Vietnam ?

[Smith_3]

:shrug:

[IntravenousDemilo]

1. Do you mean that the other way around?

:shrug:

[Smith_3]

2. If you wish.

Works both ways.

[Baclava]

14. Obama wants to bomb Hanoi?

Oh - the "Obama is a warmonger" spiel. I don't think it will stick.

[Syrinx]

3. no, I don't think so

[LBJDemocrat]

4. Will someone explain to me how he differs from McCain on Afghanistan?

It seems to me he's more hawkish than McCain on Afghanistan. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

[Syrinx]

5. it's good to be more hawkish on Afghanistan...

Assuming that the official story of 9/11 is true. That's a pretty big assumption, I admit...

[Art_from_Ark]

7. 98 senators believed the Gulf of Tonkin "incident" was true

Turns out, it wasn't

[panzerfaust]

10. "Believed" did they?

[zanne]

20. Maybe it was more "expedience" than belief, like WMD's in Iraq. nt

[Art_from_Ark]

34. I think a lot of them actually believed it

Arkansas Senator J. William Fulbright, for example, voted for the Tonkin Gulf Resolution in 1964, but 2 years later he essentially apologized for that vote in his book "The Arrogance of Power".

[Lydia Leftcoast]

37. Most people believed it

I was too young to vote, but I remember how indignant people were and how the MSM played it up.

[Art_from_Ark]

39. I was a little too young at the time

to understand much of anything beyond Captain Kangaroo, Romper Room and Hanna-Barbera cartoons. But I do remember them discussing this on Meet the Press a few years later, because the guest, J.William Fulbright, was a Senator from my state.

[MetaTrope]

30. If Obama wanted to strike at the heart of al-Qaeda, he should start with Kennebunkport

[Hippo_Tron]

42. Sending troops into Afghanistan isn't sending them into a clusterfuck

Afghanistan is a manageable conflict that will result in very few casualties compared to Iraq.

McCain wants us to continue fighting in Iraq for no reason other than he thinks it's the next Vietnam and that we need to win it this time or it will be a huge black mark on America. Afghanistan is a far better strategic point to deal with Al Qaeda, the organization that attacked us on 9/11.

[eridani]

43. How is an ongoing air war against civilians NOT a clusterfuck?

World powers have been treating the people of Afghanistan like disposable human garbage that gets in the way of their domination of the center of the Eurasian landmass for quite awhile now. We're just the latest world power to join the parade. The end result of all of that is like what you get when you put every known antibiotic in a culture solution and find stuff growing in it--really, really mean vicious mofos. They are prickly, macho, fundie crazies who are tired of being dumped on.

[checks-n-balances]

6. That's a disturbing - but insightful - question

I hope not. However, McCain will be worse. I know you compare the two in your question since they are Democrats, but I think it would be a good question for Obama to chew on for the long term if/when he is elected.

[EV_Ares]

8. No comparison between Barack and LBJ. If we should elect another president from TX, hopefully

we will have better luck than the others that came from there.

[Peace Patriot]

9. Short answer: yes.

Now that the "mission" in Iraq is nearly "accomplished" (the oil contracts are signed, and agreements in the works for permanent U.S. military protection of those contracts), the forever war needs a new slaughterhouse, to feed the war profiteers. Afghanistan/Pakistan is made to order, with a lot of tribes that no one has defeated in 5,000 years. We will kill, torture and temporarily subdue, build that pipeline, and then defend it for decades to come. We are the Roman Empire. Get used to it.

The issue, beginning with Vietnam, has been whether or not it was possible to demobilize the war industry that was created during WW II. It should have been demobilized. It was not. And now it never will be. And there will always be some excuse not to do so, and to just make it bigger and bigger and bigger. The U.S. military has now been hijacked and put directly to the service of global corporate predators. Nothing they tell us is true. Nothing! They are the biggest danger to this country, not Al Qaeda, nor anybody else.

In addition to hijacking our military, these fuckwad corporate predators have looted us blind, in every way imaginable. And where Obama thinks he is going to get the money to fight Vietnam III, and furthermore to scatter ten billion dollars here, and ten billion dollars there, in foreign aid, to buy us a few friends, I don't know. It is rather mind-boggling.

Obama also has a bad attitude about South America, and I greatly fear an eruption of U.S. interventionism there as well--targeting the oil in Venezuela and Ecuador, in particular. Given political developments in South America over the last five years (a near complete leftist sweep of the continent, with these governments now allied with each other, and forming a South American "Common Market" and common defense, without the U.S.), the result won't be U.S. victory. It will be permanent alienation of the northern and southern parts of the western hemisphere.

We. cannot. afford. these. war. plans.

Period. End of story.

The destructiveness of it--especially combined with the wild financial speculation--reminds of the madness of WW I, followed, ten years later, by the Great Depression. Only this time, the events are compressed. An orgy of senseless killing in Iraq, combined with out-of-control speculation, to be followed by an orgy of killing in Afghanistan and Pakistan. This is what happens when war is your only product.

I think that Obama's supporters are the best thing that has happened in this country in a very long time, and I continue to believe that. An activated citizenry is THE essential component of reform. But I have long warned that his supporters may be in for bitter disappointment, and need to be prepared for it, and not give up--never, never give up on reclaiming our democracy. Once again we are given the choice of war, and war. There are no other choices. It is a great pity. But that is what we are looking at. And maybe, oh, say, smart, slick, cool-guy war vs. dumbfuck war. Ah, me. I'm sorry. I have never really gotten over voting for the "peace candidate" in 1964 (LBJ), and getting 2 MILLION people slaughtered in Southeast Asia, and over 55,000 dead U.S. soldiers, for that vote. My first vote for president. Lesson: beware of Democrats bearing peace.

[ixion]

12. "We are the Roman Empire. Get used to it."

Yeah, and just look at how well it worked out for them. :eyes:

[Crowdance]

13. Recommending because of this post alone. Wow.

Peace Patriot your post truly illuminates, summarizing the past century of our history with brutal precision. Just, wow, again.

[stimbox]

21. Wow, great post!

Wish I could recommend it.

[libnnc]

23. "This is what happens when war is your only product. "

yup


and put me on record as being worried about Obama's feelings on Afghanistan.

I don't like it either.

[brindis_desala]

27. I share your concerns vis a vis South America and I hope its campaign bluster

However I think your take on the Afghanistan problem is unrealistic. Obama's presidency is guaranteed to be a one-term disaster if the remnants of Al Qaeda, the ISI and Taliban are allowed to take over the poppy fields. It's simply not practicable. He'll be on the defensive re terrorism from the day he takes office and do not think for a moment that there are several elements (domestic and foreign)eager to create havoc. He's not auditioning to run Sweden.

[Leopolds Ghost]

41. You're right. The experts want our guys (friendlies) in charge of the poppy fields.

Well? Isn't it true? :shrug:

[mirrera]

35. Your posts are always right on...

My fear exactly.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

36. What Peace Patriot said

Anyone who goes into the military, for whatever reason, should be aware that they are not "fighting for freedom" but acting as mercenaries for the corporate elite.

Those are the facts. If you don't like them, they're still true, and if you were duped into thinking that your enlistment in the military was "serving your country," sorry, but you were still duped.

Until the U.S. population as a whole can face these facts, we'll keep sliding down the road to ruin.

[Blue_In_AK]

47. PeacePatriot, you deserve a prize.

This is an excellent post, and exactly what I fear. It's so obvious that as Iraq winds down (sort of), Afghanistan is heating up. The US apparently learned nothing from the former Soviet Union's experience in Afghanistan. We are going from a quagmire to quicksand.

[G_j]

11. ==

When you're wounded and left on Afghanistan's plains, and the women come out to cut up what remains, jest roll to your rifle and blow out your brains and go to your gawd like a soldier.

Rudyard Kipling

[mmonk]

15. Afghanistan is different. In Vietnam, we didn't create the North

Vietnamese.

[rusty fender]

16. YES

There seems no way around it given our history. It doesn't sound like Obama is actually planning to get out of Afghanistan, but that's what we need to do.

[scheming daemons]

17. Obama will be to Afghanistan what McArthur was to the Phillipines...

The Bush administration abandoned Afghanistan just when they needed us most.


Obama will rescue Afghanistan from the Taliban... Permanently this time.

[High Plains]

32. Ha ha. Good one! Best laugh I've had so far today.

[eridani]

44. The people of the Philippines wanted to be rescued

The people of Afghanistan are tired of being pawns of various superpowers and ants in the way of the bulldozers constructing giant imperial monuments.

Here's a clue for you. The purpose of the 700-1000 military bases we have all over the world is not social work carried out with JDAMs.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

18. LBJ sought to prove his "anti-communist" creds. Obama is out to prove his "tough" creds.

But, it looks like the money is going to run out before Obama discovers that unnecessary, and unwinnable, wars are expensive and stupid.

Not to mention immoral.

[zanne]

19. OK: Here's some real flamebait.

There is something that's been bothering me for a long time. How much real evidence do we have against Bin Laden? Is it possible that he wasn't the mastermind behind 9/11?

[scheming daemons]

22. You mean other than the fact that he and al Qaida took credit for it?

If they didn't do it... they are certainly willing to let the world believe that they did.

[zanne]

24. But think of where we got all our information.

It's not like we haven't been lied to before. (I'm thinking WMD's in Iraq--we supposedly had all kinds of proof about that, too).

[scheming daemons]

25. No.... Al Jazeera had comments and quotes from al Qaida leaders taking credit for it....

I'm saying.... if they DIDN'T do it.... why did they take credit for it in reports by non-Western media?




We didn't get our information on them taking credit for it from our administration......



Take off the tin foil. They either did it... or they want everyone to BELIEVE they did.


Occam's Razor. The simplest explanation is usually the correct one.

[zanne]

28. This is more complicated than using Occam's Razor, my friend.

And I don't have to wear tin foil to doubt what the media feeds us. The supposed "credit" they took was never evidence. They showed us video of people dancing in the streets, and the first of many "BinLaden videos". How many times do we have to be fooled?

[NNN0LHI]

26. Wouldn't a better question be if bin Laden was smart enough to plan 9/11 ...

... would he be stupid enough to hang around Afghanistan waiting for the US Calvary to arrive?

I have been saying that scenario was highly unlikely since before we invaded.

The Afghans we are killing now were little kids in 2001 (as our soldiers who are killing them were) so I would suggest the chances of them being part of some plan to attack the US back then is folly.

Don

[Hippo_Tron]

46. Bin Laden didn't have anywhere else to go safely besides Afghanistan

Because after the USS Cole, any government that considered harboring him knew that they would be facing the wrath of the United States if something like 9/11 should happen. And if the Taliban had arrested him and extradited him to the United States or even to Saudi Arabia before 9/11 they would still be in power and still getting US money to "help fight the war on drugs".

[Toucano]

29. Short answer: No, Afghanistan is not Vietnam.

It's apples and oranges.

[Baclava]

31. Pakistan....maybe

I'm telling you, we don't want to get mixed up in that whole India/Pakistan thing either, any more than we are.

The both have nukes and both hate each other.

Plus it wouldn't surprise me that Pakistan has a cache of warheads ready to sell to AQ if we do anything stupid.
It's a powder keg that we shouldn't be stumbling and bumbling around.

[IntravenousDemilo]

33. Well, what I meant was that I thought you were asking whether Afghanistan will have the same effect

on Obama's presidency that Vietnam ultimately had on Johnson's, which of course wasn't very favourable.

[boomerbust]

38. NO

George Bush and LBJ are similar because they were both from Texas and they both lied to take this country to war!

[Iggo]

40. Will * be to the USA what Hitler was to Germany?

Keep your powder dry, kids. This ain't over by a longshot.

[Yupster]

45. It doies seem like classic mission creep doesn't it

the original idea was to overturn the Taliban with indigenous forces with very little foreign boots on the ground because Afghans wouldn't accept a foreign presence.

So now after that was successful, we're slowly doing exactly what we said we wouldn't do and both Obama and McCain seem to be intent on sending more and more troops.