I don't want my party to continue bush's wars in ANY way, period.

[Philosoraptor]

I hate to see Democrats caving into the republicans in any way, and I hate to see any Democrats talk about continuing bush's wars, seemingly forever I guess, I hate to see my party even calling it a war, that just legitimizes bush's murder of a million Iraqis and 4000 soldiers, I hate it, and I hate the occupation of Afghanistan, it's wrong too, neither one of these countries attacked us.

I hate to hear any member of my Democratic party use the words, 'win', or 'victory' in Iraq, all I want to hear is how we should get our people home IMMEDIATELY, and I'll never settle for less.

This isn't a war, this is a Nazi occupation, there will never be a victory for America over there, only death, destruction, and unfathomable dollars for dick and his stinking ape and the sickening bush parasite family, I don't want my party to endorse it, support it, continue it, or participate in it in any way, and I CERTAINLY don't want them to profit from this atrocity.

This is not my military occupation, this is not my idea of foreign policy, these are BUSH'S FUCKING WARS, and my party should have no part in it whatsoever, we just want it over, no capitulation with the enemy, the neo cons, no caving in, no appeasement, no co-operation with any part of bush's wars.

I don't want to see any members of my party continuing bush's wars for one more second, enough already.

[DangerDave921]

1. I applaud your clarity

while recognizing its futility. Unfortunately, you are not going to get your way.

[Philosoraptor]

2. I'm used to never getting my way.

[LWolf]

14. "Getting my way" is for toddlers, for people of all ages with

ODD, and for bullies.

Having principles, standing by them, acting with integrity, is for some of us.

Knowing that I am not going to get my way doesn't mean I have to embrace wrong-headed policy, or be silent about principles.

[ixion]

3. I agree with you, although I know they will continue anyway

which is what I've been trying to tell people who think that if Obama is elected that anything will change. If Clinton is any standard, nothing will change. The so-called 'war' on terror will continue, just as the so-called 'war' on drugs was continued. Airports will continue to resemble concentration camps. DHS and TSA will still be actively harassing free citizens. TIA will still be alive and well, ensconced deep in the bowels of bureaucracy.

That's the nature of a bureaucracy. It's easier to introduce something into it than it is to purge it. And any purge must be an active purge, not a passive one. This second requirement runs contrary to the way government polices itself.

I will be pleasantly surprised if things change, but I'm not expecting it.

[Philosoraptor]

8. It's like everyone's already accepted the wars as inevitable & eternal.

I hear Rod Serling.......

[earth mom]

4. I don't see anything changing in 2009 and beyond. War is good for the rich ya know.

:grr:

[tomp]

5. u.s. imperialist foreign policy is bipartisan, always has been. nt

[MadHound]

6. I'm becoming less and less convinced that Obama will end either war

Much less both of them. Our presence in Afghanistan is just as bogus as our presence in Iraq, and we need to bring all the troops home from both places ASAP.

[mmonk]

7. I think we need to get rid of the terrorist network we created

in Afghanistan. I'm not for war, I just don't think leaving that mess with the dangerous forces we created is the best idea. I don't think we should stay to guard the "pipeline" either, but maybe some investment is in order.

[Philosoraptor]

9. You and I didn't create it, but I know what you mean.

I don't have any logical answers to any of this, so I just throw out hyperbole all the time, and I complicate things by trying to make sense of the senseless.

[mmonk]

10. I share your sentiments. Whereby we could walk from

the heinous disaster we created in Iraq for their oil without dire consequences, I think we put ourselves in a Pandora's box in Afghanistan. I firmly believe we have to quit the facade of the "war on terror" because the only people that don't realize it's a fraud are Americans and the world can't let us be an international beligerent forever without some form of consequence.

[The Stranger]

12. I think we need to get rid of the terrorist network we created

in Washington. This gratuitous and repeated bombing of completely innocent Afghan civilians, including women and children at weddings and other social events, seems to do nothing but instill terror in innocent people -- million dollar super-technological "smart" (dumb) bombs dropped by the richest and most powerful nation in history -- to kill extremely impoverished civilians struggling to survive in an extremely poor nation.

[LWolf]

15. I'm with you on this one. nt

[mmonk]

18. I've been trying.

Remove the head, the body dies. We just have to make sure the voted in replacements will correct this.

[elocs]

11. Obama is not stupid.

He certainly knows that if he were to campaign to get out of Iraq as well as Afghanistan that it would hurt his election chances because most Americans could and still can see a reason to be in Afghanistan. Had the U.S. staying in Afghanistan without going to Iraq, then things might well be much better than they are now.

Eventually the futility of our presence in Afghanistan will become evident. With only 1/3 of the troops that are in Iraq, we are seriously undermanned in Afghanistan. Military leaders like to downplay that our soldiers had their position "overrun" the other week when 9 were killed, but when you have 100-200 insurgents making a coordinated attack upon an American force that is maybe 20, then something is wrong. My 19 year old godson arrived in that very area of the country this week and needless to say, he is scared.

[Just-plain-Kathy]

17. I want Obama to say he's going to bring your godson home.

I want him to assure us he's going to use his gift of speech to bring peace in the region.

[elocs]

20. I think it is beyond his power to bring peace in the region.

It is also beyond our power to bring peace until the people there want it badly enough themselves. In both Iraq and Afghanistan, the people of those countries must want to control their own fates and destinies as much as the insurgents want to control the countries.

I have read that in Afghanistan that the troops there are no longer motivated by 9/11--it's just a job they want to do and come home. My godson has at least 15 months to be there and that will take him at least 2 months beyond his 3 year contract. I have seen a YouTube clip where troops there have just 9 days left and are then told they will have to stay another 6 months. That has to be severely demoralizing. I am more afraid of my godson losing his soul than losing his life and I think he is most afraid of having to kill somebody, especially if that somebody turns out to be an innocent civilian.

[LWolf]

13. Well said. nt

[stillcool]

16. when the empire falls...

it will not be because of a person who is President, but because of the inability to sustain it's over reach.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

19. Americans are starting to have to pay for their "patriotism".

All that glorious flagwaving. All those generals promising "victory". All those politicians sporting their flag-pins and demanding that we "support the troops" by supporting their ambitions. All the people thrilling to the "smart bombs" and videos of victorious troops riding tanks.

Now, they're seeing the results. An economy in ruins. America as a pariah. A glorious military failing.

The "wars" will end. Not because of politicians but because the American people are finally seeing the cost of imperialism.

[tjwash]

22. I'd like to agree with you...but...

...I don't see or feel it in San Diego, and we are heavy HEAVY military here.

The problem here is...well, no one is actually feeling any real pain here. There is no draft, so people's children are not being conscripted and coming home in body bags. There is no rationing of food, or gas, or ANYTHING. Zero sacrifice. The biggest complaint that I hear from people...gas prices. How it takes soooo much money to fill up their RV or SUV. And most of them have bought into the bullshit line that if we drill in ANWR and plop a bunch of offshore oil rigs off the coast that will fix it right up. It's absolutely disgusting, and I have almost reached outrage fatigue with this crap out here.

Plus...when you turn on the news or open the local RW rag of a newspaper here, there is no real commentary on the war aside from how the surge is a tremendous success, and how Obama is going to fuck everything up if he gets elected.

[indepat]

21. If this were deemed a Nazi-type occupation, such would seem to be criminal and any support/funding

thereof might also be deemed criminal. I can see these theses advanced should ever a Nuremberg-style trial be convened. :D

[no limit]

23. Afghanistan didn't attack us?

They certainly provided the safe haven for the people that did attack us. In fact they were warned by the Clinton administration that if another terrorist attack by Al Queda against the US happened the Taliban would be removed. And that's exactly what should have happened after the Cole bombing, yet Bush was too fucking stupid to do it at the time, he was much more concerned with his vacation.

[Philosoraptor]

24. No, they didn't. Saudi Arabia did.

[no limit]

25. care to elaborate?

[Philosoraptor]

26. nah...

[Pastiche423]

27. How do you know who attacked us?

To this day, there is no evidence. Not one shred that Afghanistan was in any way responsible. Even the sham, "9/11 Investigation" ignored who was to blame.

So how do YOU know "they" (whoever the hell they is) certainly provided the safe haven for the people that did attack us?

Please present your evidence. I am waiting w/bated breath.

[no limit]

38. ...

[Truth2Tell]

28. You can't win a Presidential election in America

and oppose war. Americans support war. Maybe over time we can change that. Then we can elect an anti-war President. But for now, we get more war.

Those of us who oppose war are part of a relatively small political minority in America, despite the fact that some of us belong to a majority political party. It's an ever painful irony.

[mike_c]

29. K&R-- agree 100 percent....

:patriot:

I agree with you completely!

[TankLV]

30. I agree wholeheartedly...

no exceptions for ANYONE now or later...

[behave]

31. K&R!

[mina_seward]

32. BUSH'S FUCKING WARS?

I don't think so, unfortunately. Most Democrats gave him the authorization to invade.

They also kept funding the wars, for 5 years now.

Hell, they didn't even need a majority to stop him if they really wanted to, they could've simply filibustered each and every one of his criminal enterprises, even in the minority, did you know that?

That they have chosen to stay behind Bush 100% even after gaining the majority speaks volumes.

Now Obama wants to redeploy, not withdraw. He wants to keep 80,000 soldiers in Iraq to 'protect American interests in the region' (the oil). And he wants more soldiers in Afghanistan.

We don't need a Third Party, we need a second.

[Philosoraptor]

33. I won't give Obama any breaks either, I want us out of the Middle East

[DangerDave921]

35. ain't gonna happen

Because lo and behold, Afghanistan is the new site of the War on Terror! So great, Obama says he was against Iraq, but instead wants to now put more trooops in another mid-east country. And on top of that, keep troops in Iraq with the possibility of adding more back in if the need arises.

Tell me again -- who's the anti-war candidate?

Is middle america really so pro-war that Obama thinks he has to satiate their need for bloodlust, or does he really feel like our military should be in the middle-east?

[shadowknows69]

34. I'm with you Raptor man

I thought the plan was to train them and leave like in Iraq. We need to pump billions into the Afghanistan infrastructre like we should have in the 80's after the Mujahadeen had served its purpose. Occupation will never work. Support and equip the people of a country to overthrow the despots on their own or it will forever be a hollow and tainted victory. If that's even possible.

[Philosoraptor]

36. ..............

[Philosoraptor]

37. ...................