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Palm Beach ballot...no oval to fill in. Must connect two arrows?

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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-22-08 11:33 AM
Original message
Palm Beach ballot...no oval to fill in. Must connect two arrows?
Edited on Tue Jul-22-08 11:48 AM by madfloridian
On edit...I guess I must be the one confused as are the two reporters. Others in the thread seem to love connecting arrows. I have been filling in ovals for years on optical scan machines.

All other counties except Indian River County require filling in an oval, but Palm Beach thinks seniors do better at drawing lines.

I remember when Arthur Anderson was elected. We thought, oh goody, a Democrat. Well, he sounds confused to me.

Dart pierces voter confidence

For voters in Palm Beach, Martin and several other counties, the new optical-scan ballots are the third system in three presidential elections. Palm Beach has had the punch cards and touchscreens. Martin voters used levers in 2000 and touchscreens in 2004.

The mere fact of a new voting system alone does not - well, should not - foretell havoc in November. But unlike the punch cards, the levers and the touchscreens, the new system requires you to ... connect the arrows. Fill-in-the-bubble would come more naturally. But connect the arrows? Who does that for anything else?

It's such an odd requirement that on Tuesday two poll workers greeted me with a "connect the arrows" practice sheet. Then, when I signed my name to receive my ballot, I had to fill in a sample to show that I understood the concept.


On a ballot nearly the size of a folded newspaper - why so large? - I connected my arrows. With just one race on the ballot, that was easy enough. What will happen in November, though, when voters - especially those with arthritis or shaky hands - have to grasp a thin marker to connect the arrows on more than a dozen races?


More on the "connect the arrows" idiocy. And more on the fact that there really is no manual recount in Florida because there really is no paper trail yet.

Voting machines debut in August primary

To Browning's frustration, the Legislature did not change the law to require a manual count of all paper ballots, even though Crist repeatedly promoted paper ballots as a way of providing "receipts" for wary voters.

"What good is giving a voter a piece of this paper if no one has access to it?" Browning said, holding up a sample ballot. "And under current law, no one has access to it. No one."


Two counties chose the "connect the arrow" idea.

In most counties, voters will use a pen to fill in an oval next to the candidate or ballot question of their choice. But two counties, Palm Beach and Indian River, opted for a different style in which voters are asked to draw a horizontal line connecting two arrows pointing from right to left, in the candidate's direction.

"Everybody I've talked to looks at the arrow system and says, 'That's nuts,' " said Mark Herron, an election lawyer who represents the Florida Democratic Party. Palm Beach County Election Supervisor Arthur Anderson insists drawing a single line is simpler, especially for older voters.

"Stop and think about it," he said. "From a practical perspective, which would you find easier, to bubble in an oval or draw a single line connecting two parts of an arrow?"


I am looking for a sample ballot from one of those two counties. I can not imagine how it would look.

On edit...maybe all of Florida needs to change to connecting arrows.


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Changenow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-22-08 11:38 AM
Response to Original message
1. The arrows aren't a big deal
I've voted that way and it is very clear.

The fact that they won't hand count them on the other hand....
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-22-08 11:40 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. But why? Filling in the oval is almost a universal thing. Why do arrows?
:shrug:
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Changenow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-23-08 08:32 AM
Response to Reply #2
17. Maybe he thinks it is more clear
It certainly is no less clear. The arrows are no big deal. Not auditing the ballots is a huge deal.
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Greybnk48 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-22-08 11:40 AM
Response to Original message
3.  That sounds like the size and type of ballot we use in my area of WI
and it seems to work just fine.
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yardwork Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-22-08 11:41 AM
Response to Original message
4. My county has used connect-the-arrows for years. It's been very reliable.
My county is a Democratic stronghold. Connecting the arrows is very intuitive and less difficult that finding and filling in ovals. The ballots are then optical-scanned and stored in a bin. Any ballot that was incorrectly filled in is kept in a holding bin and hand-checked and counted later.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-22-08 11:43 AM
Response to Reply #4
6. Do you have a sample you could show? The oval is right beside the option.
Why would drawing a line be better for seniors? It seems more confusing to me.
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yardwork Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-22-08 02:30 PM
Response to Reply #6
15. I spoke too soon! I just checked the website and they've switched to ovals.
I'm sure that my former county used to use connect-the-arrows, but now they've switched to ovals. My new county uses ovals, too.

Anyway, here's a page that describes the general process:

http://www.co.orange.nc.us/elect/equipment.asp
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rox63 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-22-08 11:42 AM
Response to Original message
5. I've always voted that way
Connecting the arrows, that is. Then they run the filled-out ballot through an optical scanner. At least there's a paper trail. Maybe they figured that older people could see the arrows better than the bubbles. :shrug:
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-22-08 11:43 AM
Response to Reply #5
7. See arrows better than bubbles? Okay.
Maybe. Who knows.
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Lorien Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-22-08 11:45 AM
Response to Reply #5
9. Me too, but it's the opitcal scanners and those who program them
that I don't trust.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-22-08 11:45 AM
Response to Original message
8. Why is it easier for seniors to draw a straight line than to fill in a bubble?
Oh, come on. Someone enlighten me.

Show me a ballot.
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1monster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-22-08 02:18 PM
Response to Reply #8
13. Sample ballots: Fill in the Oval and Complete the Arrow
Edited on Tue Jul-22-08 02:19 PM by 1monster
Fill in the arrow sample ballot: http://www.indreg.com/links/indreg/grnctylegals/2008Presidentialballot.pdf

Complete the arrow sample ballot:
http://www.co.chisago.mn.us/file.aspx?Id=b5c36848-d671-4b84-8d5b-bcf204b896c7

Note the larger format on the Complete the Arrow Ballot. What's so hard about this?


On edit: These are in pdf format.
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1monster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-22-08 11:46 AM
Response to Original message
10. We've been filling in arrows ever since we got scan trons in this county... at least four or five
Edited on Tue Jul-22-08 11:49 AM by 1monster
elections now.

The arrows are much easier and clearer than the ovals.

There's a whole lot less room for error in completing the arrows.

It goes something like this:


President:

------ --------> John McCain, Republican


------ --------> Barack Obama, Democrat


------ --------> Cynthia McKinney, Green Party


------ -------> Bob Barr, Libertarian


etc., etc.

edit: typo

second edit try: for some reason I can't get the extra spaces to show in the arrows... but the break in the arrows is bigger than shown.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-22-08 11:50 AM
Response to Reply #10
11. There is little room for error in selecting an oval beside a name.
It makes no sense.
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1monster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-22-08 02:13 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. The arrows are so easy that the only way to mess up these ballots is to not
be able to see... For example, if you leave your reading glasses at home.
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MrCoffee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-22-08 02:23 PM
Response to Original message
14. It looks like this



I've voted with ovals and with arrows, and the arrows are easier to see who it is you're voting for.
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1monster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-22-08 02:44 PM
Response to Reply #14
16. Hmmm... Though I really admire Florence Nightingale, Booker T. Washington, and
John Hancock, I have to give my vote to Albert Einstein.

He may not have been perfect, but I like the way he thought.

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