The face of an innocent girl killed by marijuana prohibition

[cbc5g]

The police that got her killed express no remorse insisting she was a criminal. This is another face of the thousands who have died at the hands of corrupt politicians and police agencies that believe marijuana is a threat to society.






http://blog.norml.org/2008/07/25/abc-news-tonight-the-tragic-death-of-rachel-hoffman-and-the-tragedy-that-is-pot-prohibition/#comments


Rachel Hoffman is dead.

Rachel Hoffman, like many young adults, occasionally smoked marijuana.

But Rachel Hoffman is not dead as a result of smoking marijuana; she is dead as a result of marijuana prohibition.

Under prohibition, Rachel faced up to five years in prison for possessing a small amount of marijuana.

Under prohibition, the police in Rachel’s community viewed her as nothing more than a common “criminal,” and threatened her with years in jail unless she cooperated with them as an untrained, unsupervised confidential informant.

Under prohibition, the law enforcement officers responsible for placing Rachel in the very situation that resulted in her murder have failed to publicly express any remorse — because, after all, under prohibition Rachel Hoffman was no longer a human being deserving of such sympathies.

Tonight, ABC’s 20/20 will shed a national spotlight on the tragedy surrounding Rachel Hoffman’s untimely death — and the tragedy that is marijuana prohibition.

[tridim]

1. Good for 20/20, but still nothing will change.

The WOD will continue to destroy lives and get innocent people killed, while the Feds and big pharma laugh all the way to the bank.

[appal_jack]

8. Fortunately, 'our guy' feels otherwise:

Back in January, Obama was among the Democrats who expressed a sensible and harm-reducing view. I don't have a link for the debate's transcript, but here is my commentary on it shortly afterward:

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/app_farmer_rb/20

Once we get Obama into the White House, let's end this war!

-app

[High Plains]

19. I'll believe Obama will reform the drug laws when he reforms them.

I'm not holding my breath. The whole racket is too profitable for too many vested interests.

[cbc5g]

21. Obama has stated he is against prison for non violent drug users

What will come of that is anybodies guess

[High Plains]

24. As I said...

[appal_jack]

25. He won't do it on his own...

He won't do it on his own. Getting Obama elected is only step 1 in ending the crime that is prohibition. After 1/20/09, it will still take a groundswell of popular demands to effect positive change in this arena. I hope you will be part of that. I promise to do my best...

-app

[High Plains]

26. I'll be there. Obama will have the bully pulpit.

Will he use it to advocate for drug law reform? Stay tuned.

[Occulus]

55. Actually, I think he could if he wanted to.

Doesn't the DEA set the 'schedule' of controlled substances?

How does the head of the DEA get his job?

[druidity33]

48. dig deeper

if you go to www.10questions.com and check Obamas response to #3, i have not such high hopes for BO. He compares MJ to Morphine, says he doesn't want people growing their own, and says he wantsstrict regulations regarding control. I didn't hear him say anything about de-criminalization.

:shrug:



on edit: I got the website address wrong... duh.

[NashVegas]

51. Great. He'll Give It to Pfizer, Lily Et Al, Instead of Listening to California

And we'll have corporate dope commercials on TV all day replacing the Zoloft ads.

[awoke_in_2003]

73. As long as they don't use

side by side outdoor tubs in them :)

[Canuckistanian]

2. Unbelievable. This demonization has to stop.

Millions of people die from alcohol and nicotine addiction every year.

The death rate of marijuana smokers is roughly the same as those addicted to Doritos.

Wait, that didn't come out right.

[depakid]

3. Another coup for the great state of Florida

[Union Thug]

4. Which is the bigger crime?

Getting high or facilitating the death of a human being?

[aspergris]

5. Spare me the crap

It is NOT police agency's fault. I'm a cop, and I'm strongly against the war on drugs in general, and totally against mj criminalization. Groovy. But I have ONE vote.

It is the POLITICIANS who pass the laws that criminalize mj and it is THEY who are to blame.

NOT cops.

We have to enforce the laws, and while we have some discretion for minor offenses, we don't write these stupid laws that we end up having to enforce.

NO major democratic or republican candidate supported MJ decrim/legalization. IIrc, Sharpton, Kucinich, and Ron Paul did.

So, blame frigging Obama and McCain before you blame us, because NEITHER will push for MJ decrim, nor will most of the congressional people we vote in either.

MJ prohibition IS a tragedy. Blame the right frigging people. THe people who MAKE the laws. Not us

[cbc5g]

6. No sorry..they didn't have to put a pot user into a drug deal with crack cocaine and guns

It wasn't appropriate. You know it and I know it.


SECONDLY, police organizations across the country ACTIVELY support and lobby for marijuana criminalization. Not all, and I didn't say all.

[aspergris]

7. bull

It was her decision.

Cops are tasked with enforcing the laws . we did NOT pass them.

she made a choice that would not have existed if OUR reps legalized it.

deal with it. how many of your reps support decrim?

they r the culprits. period

[High Plains]

15. Her decision, right: Snitch or go to prison.

Quit playing innocent cop. You're not. Your cop lobbies are working overtime all the time for more and tougher drug laws, fewer constitutional protections, and more money more money more money. To say you're just enforcing the law is bullshit.

Get back to me when you join LEAP and go public with your opposition to the drug war. And let me know when the FOP or the IACP or any other of your organizations start calling for change.

[aspergris]

27. bull redux

we are not to blame. plenty of cops are against the drug war. and those who have THE POWER to c hange the laws bear the responsibility, not us.

yea. it's a tragedy she was killed.

i have one good friend killed by a drug dealer. I also was in a warrant where 3 of my good friends were shot.

I can blame THEM just like you should.

The war on drugs, terror, and domestic violence have ALL decreased constitutiopnal protections.

\Blaming a cop for the drug war is like blaming a wal mart greeter for wal mart's corporate policies.

it's ridiculous

[High Plains]

32. You refuse to recognize the role of police in perpetuating prohibition.

How convenient.

Where are all those cops against the drug war? I never seen them in those press conferences with all the guys in blue uniforms who are demanding more money for more drug war.

If a Walmart greeter had a union and that union lobbied for Walmart's corporate policies, I would give him shit.

What's your police union's position on the drug war? Let me guess.

Wah, we cops hate the drug war, but we just keep on prosecuting it. This is fucking ELECTIVE policing if anything is. While there are sometimes community complaints about open air markets (a function of prohibition, not drugs) or drive-by shootings (a function or prohibition, not drugs), you mainly have to rely on snitches and thinking up reasons to search as many people as you can to enforce the drug laws.

If you're part of the machine and you keep silent, you're part of the problem.

[aspergris]

36. my police union

doesn't have a position on the drug war. I know a lot of individual cops who support it, and a lot who don't/

but again, you don't want to blame the REAL people with the power to change because then you'd have to admit that the dem party SUCKS on this issue, as does the repub party.

Clinton was a huge drug warrior, fwiw, and radically upped the amount of resources available for drug units etc.


And I don't keep silent.

I used to have a POLICE CHIEF who told me flat out that he could not give a flying fuck WHAT drugs people did in the privacy of their own home.

Regardless, you blame the wrong people.

Blame your precious rep's.

have ANY of them introduced a bill to repeal the scheduling of Marijuana as a Schedule I drug?

There is NO uniform policy of police officers nationwide, as to pro or anti-war on drugs.

There is, otoh, a national position of the democratic and republican parties and BOTH support the war on drugs.

[High Plains]

40. I heartily agree that the Democratic Party is cowardly and craven on this.

One rep, Barney Frank (D-MA) has introduced a marijuana decrim bill. I think he has Ron Paul as a co-sponsor now.

Denying that police as an institution perpetuate and deepen the drug war as much as they can is just silly. Look at what happened when Bush tried to zero out the Byrne Grant program, you know, the one that funds all those cowboy anti-drug task forces. The cops associations, the sheriffs' associations, the prosecutors' associations, the national narcs' association were all united in howling to high heaven. And of course the chicken-hearted Democrats scurried to appease them.

It's the same thing at the state and local level. Watch the hearings in your state legislature on drug policy. See who ALWAYS testifies against reform and for more more more drug war.

The institution for which you work is complicit in perpetuating the drug war. I hope you really are speaking out as you say you are, precisely because the police have made themselves such an important (and reactionary) part of the setting of drug policy. You don't have to retire to join LEAP, either. You keep saying lots of police oppose the drug war. Where are they?

[Chulanowa]

46. Your friends were cops

Trained, paid, pension, and best of all, total immunity to prosecution for anything. They volunteered for the job and can, at any point, hand the badge back.

This girl was an unpaid, untrained, unsupervised informant because her ONLY OPTION was either do this, or do hard time. She essentially had no choice.

No, cops didn't write the drug laws. But they DID place this girl into a life-threatening situation by juxtaposing it with those same laws. In other words, the cops decided to save their donut-fed asses at the expense of a civilian's life, and currently refuse to acknowledge it was even an actual person that got killed.

[Ghost in the Machine]

47. No, your 'brothers in blue' made the decision to put her in that position, period.

They lied to her and coerced her into becoming an informant. Most cops are lying thugs and worse criminals than those that they persue. I've done several 'dirty jobs' for your brothers in blue down in South Florida. Believe me on this...

Cop = Jackbooted Thug

Period

"she made a choice that would not have existed if OUR reps legalized it."

When did our elected reps legalize cops lying to people to coerce them into becoming an informant? I must have missed that...

Here's a better question... if cops (like you) are against MJ being illegal, why don't YOU just refuse to arrest people you catch with it? Quit pointing the finger at everyone else and start doing something yourself.

[The Doctor.]

78. So you would leverage a college grad with no street experience into a dangerous position like that?

I'd call that very poor judgment.

That, and I'm sick of people who jump into discussion and claim some kind of expertise as a way of weighting their position.

No, whether you're a cop or not, it was not the decision of the politicians to put her there, it was ultimately their call to offer leniency for her participation in a dangerous sting.

They fucked up and she died.

Period.

[INDIA]

79. I live in Tallahassee. The cops were, and are, incompetent morons.

As a cop, you should know that that if you send a wire into a dangerous situation like that, you bring the cavalry. And if you lose the wire, you go "code red" and blow the whole deal up. They did neither. A young girl is dead. They were responsible and accountable for her life, and they failed her.

I hope the family gets paid...BIG TIME.

[Lint Head]

10. Cops that are not cowards can refuse to arrest people and

the law will be changed. It is that easy. Prohibition is responsible for the deaths of many innocent people. That's a historical fact. Cops are 'The People' talked about in the Constitution too. Cops do not have to be mindless robots. :dem:

[aspergris]

28. that's the stupidest thing i've ever heard. it's neocon on crack

do you support rule of law and seperation of powers?

because what you are suggesting is PURE neocon. You are saying that the executive branch (cops, george bush, etc.) have the power not to enforce laws merely because they disagree with them

Sorry, that's NOT rule of law, it;s NOT respecting the seperation of powers, and it's NEOCON 101. The law is "whatever i say it is"

Any cop has to expect that they will enforce many (MANY) laws they don't agree with.

[cbc5g]

30. Then I guess the cops that decided not to bust me are neo-cons

Or maybe they are progressives and know that there are plenty of bullshit laws on the books that no one enforces and the law against using marijuana is one of those bullshit laws.

Standing up for what is right and just is what all peoples should do.


Did you even watch the 20/20 program? The cops are partly responsible for her death. The drug court law plainly states that people that have been in that program cannot be put around drugs. The police put her around drugs. They had no backup plan. They did not train her. They threatened her and coerced her into doing it.


No sorry, the police are partly responsible

[aspergris]

33. As I said before

I have discretion with minor crimes, and that includes MISDEMEANOR drug offenses.

I dont' give a flying fuck if some dipshit has a few buds of marijuana. Nor does my sgt. I , otoh, cannot look the other way when I catch somebody with 2 ounces of cocaine, etc.
I don't think cocaine possession should be a crime.

I don;'t think a LOT of laws are just. But , apart from my discretionary power, I don't make that decision.

POLITICIANS do

[cbc5g]

34. Then God bless you for your service!

:)

[aspergris]

38. Thank you

Fwiw, I know a LOT of cops who "look the other way" when they catch people with small amounts of drug. Some even go against their dept's policies by doing so, but they do it anyway.

The dirty little secret most real cops know is that marijuana users (there is no such thing as an addict, since it's not physically addictive) are generally relatively benign.

Your average drunk is more combative, and more prone to crime, especially violent crime, than your average pothead.

I'd rather deal with a stoner whose worst offense is chomping on twinkies and laughing at Harold and Kumar movies, than some drunk a**hole who is belligerent and violent.

The nice thing about police work is that i can CHOOSE to martial my resources and spend my time LOOKING for car thieves, burglars, etc. vs. druggies.

That's how I do my part.

I want to get people off the street who are hurting other people by stealing their property or otherwise victimizing them. The sad fact is a good percentage of the thieves (especially ID thieves) I deal with are meth-heads. If you want to sit inside yer house and smoke meth, I could not care less, nor will you come into contact iwth law enforcement. It's when you deal, or commit other crimes that you draw attention to yourself.

[a la izquierda]

76. You sound like my brother in law on this.

But since you're on DU, I know that you are not him.

He's a screaming conservative. At least the last time I checked he was. :)

[High Plains]

37. I hear you cops say all the time you don't care about a little pot.

One question, then: Who the fuck is arresting 800,000 people a year for it?

[aspergris]

41. If you actually l ook at the stats

and spend some time in court, you would realize that very few people get arrested let alone go to court for a couple of buds, etc.

Usually, it's when they are caught committing other crimes, and/or dealing and/or have extensive records.

Ask ANY defense attorney if you don't believe me. VERY few people go to jail for more than an overnight stay at worse for a little bud.

heck, some jurisdictions, like the state of california HAS decrim'd minor amounts of marijuana. It's a CIVIL infraction, like a speeding ticket. Not a crime.

Minor amounts of drugs, possessory offenses simply do not result in jail time, let alone prison, except in rare circ's and/or a lot of priors.

ANother thing most people don't realize is that "arrest" statistics include CITATIONS. yes, those count as an arrest. Iow, if cop stops you, and you get a TICKET for marijuana, that is reported to the federal stat-monkeys as an "arrest".

You need to look into the stats and not believe anything ANY propaganda outfit tells you. I fully support NORML but I also know that they mislead with statistics like this.

Seriously, I know LOTS of people who got caught with a little bud by cops at some point in their lives. Not one of them spent a day in jail.

[High Plains]

43. I'm familiar with the stats.

Although I'm not aware of any that actually follow all those cases to their conclusions.

Twelve states have decriminalized, and yes, the figures are a bit misleading because the 800,000 number includes the people who were only issued citations. So, maybe only 600,000 actual arrests.

Yes, most often people don't get jail or prison time for simple possession. But not always. There's great variation among jurisdictions. In my rural South Dakota county, getting busted with a bud gets you arrested, a $453 fine, and maybe a few days in jail, depending on your record, although you can get a whole year and some people occassionally do. In New York City, you typically get arrested and pay a fine, though the cops get their pound of flesh up front by holding you in their stinking jails for an average of about 24 hours. Many, many of those NYC arrests are from cops rousting young people of color in the outer boroughs. Not nice white people in Manhattan.

Yes, some people get busted for the pot they had in their pocket when they were committing other crimes.

That still leaves hundreds of thousands of people arrested for marijuana possession who were not committing other crimes.

Of course, imprisonment is not the only consequence of a marijuana arrest, but you knew that, right?

[TorchTheWitch]

53. Excellent point

EVERYBODY has to do things in their job that they disagree with... that's life. To suggest any cop should just refuse to do their job because of some personal criteria that goes against the law they HAVE to follow and thus throw their entire career down the toilet is lunacy at best. Never a good idea to suggest someone else do something that you yourself would never do... and there's no way anyone here would so much as dream of throwing their entire career down the toilet because they would prefer not to do something their job requires that they'd rather not do.

I'll never get the cop hate around here. Sure some of them are assholes just as there are assholes in every other profession. Still, they do a nasty job for little pay, far too little appreciation, and those that hate them all collectively are also the first ones to beg for their help if they ever need it.

[Occulus]

56. Every experience I have ever had with a cop has been bad.

Every. Last. One. And they weren't even there for me when I got ripped off and the stupid motherfucker who stole from me left a signed note saying he "borrowed" the stuff. I filed a report and the investigator told me "I don't think it was worth all that you're claiming".

The police have never, ever been there for me. They have always been there AGAINST me, and at this moment I could ice skate on my clean criminal record.

What conclusion would you come to, given the above?

[a la izquierda]

77. Here, here. N/T

[Ghost in the Machine]

71. *WHY* be a cop if you disagree with "many (MANY) laws"??

Is it just some kind of authoritarian itch you need to scratch or what?? What kind of thought process goes into a decision to work at a job you don't agree with?

"Well, you know, I don't really agree with many (MANY) of these laws, but what the hell, I look cool in my uniform... and I get to drive fast and play with sirens..." :shrug:





:shrug:

[High Plains]

11. No. No Good German defense for the police on this issue.

Law enforcement as an institution profits handsomely from prohibition and wages the war on drugs with great enthusiasm. The police are complicit in maintaining the drug war status quo; any time anybody suggests cutting their bloated budgets, they start screaming like stuck hogs about meth this, crack that, pot this. The law enforcement lobby is a pillar of prohibition. I won't blame the cops when the police lobby quits lobbying for ever more drug laws and ever more money to enforce them.

The politicans are scared of the cop lobby.

The feds alone took in $1.6 billion from property they stole from citizens last year. That's just the feds. Highway Patrolmen hover over the interstates like vultures, pulling people over on the flimsiest of pretexts, browbeating them into allowing searches, and tearing their cars apart in the name of the drug war. Then you have those muscle-bound SWAT teams kicking down doors and shooting people, treating American citizens like they were Al Qaeda insurgents in Baghdad. And then you have the mindless thuggishness the cops displayed in the Hoffman case. Just business as usual, right? Shake down some kid who isn't hurting anybody, threaten them with the horrors of decades in prison, then turn them into snitches so you can perpetuate the bullshit. Fuck that and fuck anybody involved with it.

You and your colleagues are a BIG part of the problem, my friend. I hear cops say all the time they don't believe in the drug war. But they never say it out loud. Not until they retire. Then they join LEAP, Law Enforcement Against Prohibition. But you don't have to retire to join. You can sign up right now and start getting the message out. Go public.

P.S. Every wonder why so many people hate cops? The drug war is very, very high on that list.

[aspergris]

31. all your tired misguided rhetoric aside

If I'm a GOOD GERMAN SOLDIER for following the rule of law and having to enforce laws (war on drugs, war on terror, war on domestic violence) many of which I don't agree with.

THEN EVERY SINGLE PERSON IN CONGRESS (STATE OR FEDERAL) WHO DOESN"T WORK TO REPEAL THE DRUG LAWS IS AS BAD AS HITLER'S INNER CIRCLE.

That's your "logic". Because THEY are the ones with POWER (shades of foucault). They are the ones who can CHANGE. And they don't. So, if I'm a piddly good german soldier, they are the UBER ones with all the power.

So what you are proposing is that every single cop decide ad hoc which laws HE agrees with, and then selectively only enforce those.

Yea, that will work really well.

Also note that your rhetoric about how many people "hate cops", is silly.

Poll after poll shows that cops rank amongst the top 5 professions that people respect. That's polling data, not rhetoric. MUCH higher than politicians or lawyers or journalists.

[High Plains]

35. I understand your point that you have to enforce the law.

Although I take it with a grain of salt. You really HAVE TO arrest that kid with a joint? Why don't you just take it and throw it away (or more likely, take it and go home and smoke it)? Or does discretion only apply when it comes to fellow officers?

But you refuse to respond to my point about law enforcement's institutional complicity with perpetuating and even expanding the drug war. Police aren't just enforcing the law; they are major players in getting new laws enacted and blocking reforms. The politicians are scared of the cop lobby.

And yeah, I don't think much of our craven politicans, either.

[aspergris]

42. No, I don't have to

"Although I take it with a grain of salt. You really HAVE TO arrest that kid with a joint? Why don't you just take it and throw it away (or more likely, take it and go home and smoke it)? Or does discretion only apply when it comes to fellow officers?"

In many agencies we HAVE discretion. I can't remember the last time I arrested a kid for having A joint. Yes, it IS legal to give a warning for that amount of marijuana,and it is frequently done. I have seen cops do this DOZENS of times.

In some agencies, this is against the rules, and many cops risk being disciplined, but they do it anyway

Guess what? That doesn't make it into the stats. Only the times it DOES result in arrest or citation (the latter more common) is there a stat.

The reality is this. Police agencies are just like ANY other government agency. I am speaking as a small "l" libertarian here. They seek to expand their size, their budget, etc.

and they are not going to deny drug grant money. That;s just not going to happen.

Many police have spoken out against the drug war, including police chiefs, etc. Usually AFTER they resign, because a police chief is a political animal, a political appointee, and with rare exception (daryl gates comes to mind) are afraid to say something that the mayor doesn't like.

Seattle city council, as an example, passed a resolution to make marijuana QUOTE a "low priority" which basically means (nudge nudge nod nod wink wink) telling the cops not to bother with minor drug offenses.

And guess what? I didn't hear a PEEP from the SPD or their GUILD to counter that resolution.

the POLITICIANS have this power.

NOT the cops

[High Plains]

44. Just admit it:

The cops as an institution are part of a complex of vested interests that seek to perpetuate and even deepen the drug war. You can't evade that by just blaming the politicians. There's plenty to go around.

I'm familiar with the Seattle situation. It was actually a popular initiative, not a city council action. And the police in Seattle are relatively progressive and, for the most part, have actually honored the will of the voters. I know the former chief, Norm Stamper. He's now a LEAP member. Kinda feel bad for the guy. A lot of people hate him because he was chief during the WTO Battle in Seattle, but he's really a thoughtful and very progressive cop. I wish there were whole lot more like him. He wrote a book about the issues confronting policing. You might enjoy it. Look it up.

[High Plains]

45. We'll have to continue this tomorrow.

I'm going out now. Hope I don't run into any of your buddies.

[TheMadMonk]

39. It is a demonstrable fact that some cops are so bent...

...that they don't need a mirror to examine the backs of their own necks.

Are you a "good cop"? You claim to be. However, can you honestly claim that you have absolutely no knowledge of ONGOING corrupt behaviour amongst your colleagues? That you do not know of any instances in which evidence (ie. money, drugs, etc) has disappeared wholly or in part? And specifically that such has never occurred in any command where you have been stationed.

Can you claim that you have no direct personal knowledge whatsoever of corrupt behaviour amongst your workmates? And even more importantly, that in instances where you have had such knowledge, that you reported it, or that you absolutely would report it if you were in possession of knowledge about such behaviour.


It matters not one effing whit that you yourself did not directly participate in corrupt behaviour if you are aware of such behaviour amongst your colleagues and you don't say anything.

[L0oniX]

59. Another cop with no conscience ....YAwn

“Blind obedience to authority is the enemy of the truth.” Albert Einstein

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

9. The drug dealers killed her. Not the cops.

I'm an advocate of the legalization of MJ but the cops aren't responsible for what the dealers do.

[Lint Head]

12. The cops coerced her and threatened her with extended jail time

if she did not cooperate. :dem:

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

14. She chose to cooperate.

She wasn't a little girl.

I had a similar case when I was an EAP counselor with a crack addict. The cops threatened him with prosecution for possession and dealing - which was true.

He chose to cooperate and was later found dead in the river. Whether it was suicide (it was judged to be) or murder by the dealers is anyone's guess.

We advised him to not to cooperate because it was too risky and take his lumps, prison, if necessary.

He chose to take the risk rather than pay the price.

His choice.

Just as it was her choice.

[High Plains]

17. Yeah, stupid girl. It's all her fault.

This is a sterling example of what's wrong with drug law enforcement in this county, and the only one you fault is Rachel Hoffman? Don't counselors need empathy?

[NashVegas]

50. "Stupid Girl" Was Carrying 3/4 of an Ounce

She was dealing and the stakes get higher than the users when you're dealing.

[High Plains]

58. Ooh, almost an ounce of weed! Where was the SWAT team?

She was obviously a very dangerous criminal.

"The stakes get higher" when the cops shake you down, turn you out as a snitch, and send you off to piss off real criminals.

The Tallahassee police chief last night kept saying she was a criminal. No, it's our drug laws that are criminal.

[dysfunctional press]

63. 3/4 of an ounce is NOT "dealing" 3/4 of a lb. maybe...

i usually buy 1/4 lb. at a time- once a month. and it's all for me.

[NashVegas]

65. Early Morning Error

It should have been more like 3/4 pound. And that's a dealer.

[dysfunctional press]

70. yeah...3/4 lb is probably a 'dealer'...although one pretty low on the ladder, most likely.

now if it were 3/4 of a bale...
or 3/4 of a panel truck...

it would be a different story.

[High Plains]

13. The cops basically forced her into this. No free pass for them.

Just business as usual: Bust some kid who hasn't hurt anybody, threaten her with decades in prison, turn her into a snitch so she can do the same thing to others. Only this time she got killed for going along with the cops' ugly game.

I hate snitches. But I hate the cops that force people into that even more. It's ugly, ugly, ugly.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

16. So, she bears no responsibility for her choices?

[High Plains]

18. Yes, some.

She shouldn't have agreed to be a snitch. She should have manfully taken however many years they wanted to throw at her for her victimless crime.

But she was some innocent middle-class white college girl who the cops probably scared to death with their threats of lesbian prison gang rape--at least that's the shit they usually use on guys.

Do the cops bear no responsibility for just routinely turning people into snitches? That's about the only way they can pursue their beloved (and highly profitable) drug war. Do the cops (more generally) bear no responsiblity for continually lobbying for ever more drug war? Do the cops bear no moral responsibility for happily enforcing morally unjustifiable laws?

[NashVegas]

49. The One Truthful Response In This Thread

I used to be an advocate for legalization. Now I'm not so sure, and it's 100% because of the economic and regulatory issues that will be raised as a result. I don't trust my fellow Americans to make the right moral decision.

[Occulus]

57. "economic and regulatory issues"

You mean, like alcohol and tobacco, right?

RIGHT?

[NashVegas]

64. More Like Pfizer & Monsanto

[High Plains]

68. So, better to perpetuate the criminalization of millions?

Because you don't trust your fellow citizens? Yikes!

[cbc5g]

20. I have Crohn's Disease and use marijuana daily and have had so far good run ins with police

I'm a student in college and I've been searched a few times when I had a pipe and marijuana on me and they didn't take it. I was smoking in my car one night parked and a cop pulled up next to me and didn't care about the smoke and asked if I wanted a ride back to my dorm. Now not all of the police were as kind as them and luckily I never had run ins with them like other people I know.


Not all police are bent on busting marijuana users. Dealers, yeah and thats cool, but users...no not all police are bent on busting them.


The police in Rachel's situation could have handled it differently. They didn't have to threaten her with years in prison. They could have had compassion.

[High Plains]

23. This should be on ABC Prime Time in just a few minutes.

9:00 CST

[asdjrocky]

22. Fuck. Just fuck.

I can not tell you the number of cops that have just had to "confiscate for evidence" and I can't tell you the number of cops that I've smoked pot with. Stupid laws. Stupid, uncaring cops. I'm glad I at least live in Ca where we're at least a little more liberal on this subject.

You gave me the first reason I had in years for watching 20/20.

[benEzra]

29. Damn. (n/t)

[NashVegas]

52. NORML Is Using a Tragic Loss to Score Points. She Was No Innocent

It's always helpful to go more in depth and seek details on these stories that pull the heart-strings.

Authorities began the process Friday of explaining how Hoffman became a police informant, a relationship initiated when police executed a search warrant at her apartment April 17 and recovered more than 200 grams of marijuana as well as ecstasy.

Looks like the "baggie" they caught her with was gallon-sized. (One ounce = 29 grams = a not-quite-full lunch-size baggie).

This supposedly innocent "girl" was either a dealer, or she was Paul McCartney's tour manager. I vote the former.

I used to think MJ should be legalized. Now I think it should be decriminalized, at most. Leave it - along with gambling and prostitution — there for people who have an inherent need to take risks. Don't Disney it up for the masses and the corporations to feed off of.

[Gold Metal Flake]

54. Police never inflate the amount of drugs seized to enhance an arrest record.

:eyes:

[High Plains]

60. Yes, she was an innocent. And now she's dead.

This was a 23-year-old girl who liked to rave and party and sell a little weed to her friends. And now she's dead.

[Solon]

62. She's more innocent than myself...

I work at a gas station that sells beer and cigarettes, two products that kill a hell of a lot more people than marijuana. Even if she were a dealer, on a moral level, I'm less innocent than she.

[dysfunctional press]

66. not really- unless you regularly and knowingly sell to minors.

the difference is the legality. it's not 'immoral' to sell legal products. the immorality comes in how the people that purchase them choose to use them.

[Solon]

67. Morality and legality are two different things...

I knowingly sell beer and cigarettes to people with the knowledge that one day it could kill them, they are of legal age, that is true, but that is also irrelevant to the discussion at hand.

[dysfunctional press]

69. the same could be said of many legal products.

it's not immoral to sell a legal product. the immorality comes in the use of that product.

is it immoral to sell condoms? to single people? how about to minors?

how about birth control pills/devices?

viagra?

fireworks?

ferarri's?

[NashVegas]

74. Morality Doesn't Really Enter Into It

When I was much younger, I knew enough people who dealt to have a basic gist of the personality type. But if you really want to drag morality into it, in my experience dealers are generally people who wouldn't throw rope to a drowning man if they thought there was a chance they might not get it back.

[L0oniX]

61. Fucking cops always do that shit. They tell ya you could get the max....

to scare the fuck out of you to get you to narc on the dealer and others. It's the dirty and lazy way for cops to bust drug users in hope that they will catch some big time dealer with large quantities so they can make a name for themselves. Fuck them assholes. I hate cops ...period!

[SteveM]

72. This MUST be remembered: the Patriot Acts are based on WOD:

President Signs USA PATRIOT
Improvement and Reauthorization Act
"The law allows our intelligence and law enforcement officials to continue to share information. It allows them to continue to use tools against terrorists that they used against -- that they use against drug dealers and other criminals. It will improve our nation's security while we safeguard the civil liberties of our people. The legislation strengthens the Justice Department so it can better detect and disrupt terrorist threats. And the bill gives law enforcement new tools to combat threats to our citizens from international terrorists to local drug dealers."

-- President George W. Bush
March 9, 2006 http://www.whitehouse.gov/infocus/patriotact/

The War on Drugs has been for many years the frontal assault of the far right (aided by a surprising number of "liberal" Democrats) in the culture war. Hatred for the counter-culture of the 60s is the passionate molten core of the far right. But more than that, the WOD is the blueprint for social control in the United States. Now, with the Patriot Acts, it is writ large.

And some of my "progressive" and "sophisticated" friends said for years the WOD was a back-burner issue. Not so much, now.

[Blue_In_AK]

75. This is such bullshit.

I'm so grateful I live in a state with a reasonable marijuana policy.

[IDemo]

80. What should be illegal is the use of citizens to engage in dangerous police work

Regardless of whether one makes a "choice" to do so, it is inappropriate and unethical to ask anyone to place themselves into a potentially hazardous or even fatal situation just to gain points with a prosecutor.