Liberal Church attacked, one person dead

[ck4829]

A man opened fire with a shotgun in a church in Knoxville, Tennessee, on Sunday morning, killing one person and wounding several others, police and media reports said.

The gunman was tackled by church-goers and taken into custody by police.

The shooting at the Tennessee Valley Unitarian Universalist Church was reported at 10:18 a.m. Sunday, with one person dead and six others taken to a hospital in critical condition, a police dispatcher said.

Local NBC television station WBIR quoted a member of the church as saying a man walked into the church while children were performing a scene from "Annie" and began firing a shotgun, striking six or seven people before he was tackled by congregation members.

http://www.reuters.com/article/topNews/idUSN2735055020080727

The Tennessee Valley Unitarian Universalist Church is a community that meets to worship and work together for social change, according to the church's Web site. Since the 1950's, the congregation has worked for desegregation, racial harmony, fair wages, women's rights and gay rights, according to the Web site. The congregation also has provided sanctuary for political refugees, fed the homeless and founded a chapter of the ACLU.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080727/ap_on_re_us/church_shooting

The monster who did this is still alive, we need to find out why this happened.

[Faryn Balyncd]

1. I wonder what the gunman's favorite radio programs are.

[patrice]

2. You read my mind!! Another Timothy McVeigh. nt

[proud patriot]

21. If I were an attorney prosecuting this I'd want that answer

[roguevalley]

33. that church lives the teachings of Jesus. I wish there was one near by

where i live. I would go.

[BlooInBloo]

3. Now if those nice church-goers were all armed, this wouldn't'a happened.

[spin]

5. If all the church-goers were armed, he wouldn't have attacked...

He probably knew nobody would be carrying and he could shoot people at will.

Nothing ruins a nice massacre faster then some trained and determined honest citizen with his own weapon.

[BlooInBloo]

6. WOOT!!!! More guns all around! That's what we need!

[spin]

9. Guns in the hands of licensed trained individuals...

are not the problem.

Check the number of firearm related crimes committed by concealed weapons permit holders in Florida. Out of 1,363,087 licenses issued between October 1, 1987 - June 30, 2008, 165 licenses were revoked because of Crime After Licensure where a firearm was utilized.
http://licgweb.doacs.state.fl.us/stats/cw_monthly.html

Firearms in the hands of irresponsible and/or criminal individuals or those who suffer from extreme mental disorders are indeed a problem.

While we can't legislate firearms out of existence, we can work to make sure only rational sane individuals can legally own them. We can also work on solving the basic underlying causes of violence in our society. If we have some success in these efforts, we can reduce the demand for guns and in turn reduce tragic incidents and accidents.

[BlooInBloo]

10. I'll take my magic pony in lavender plz!

[spin]

11. Cute magic pony (n/t)

[orleans]

25. i want a magic lavender pony too! n/t

[Canuckistanian]

26. Say, doesn't Blackwater have licensed, trained individuals?

ANYONE with a gun and delusions of grandeur is dangerous.

And no law is going to prevent them from playing their own little retribution games.

[spin]

31. Blackwater is a company, a lot different from a...

individual with a concealed carry permit.

Right or wrong they get paid to go in harms way.

A concealed weapons permit holder doesn't suffer from delusions that he is in any way a police officer with obligations to confront criminals. The classes required to obtain a carry permit emphasize this in no uncertain terms.

[benEzra]

12. A CHL holder stopped the Colorado church shooter with her 9mm.

The MSM kept calling her a "security guard," but she was a parishioner with a concealed carry license and a personally owned Beretta 9mm who volunteered to go armed at church to provide informal security. That is not legal in some states, but is is in Colorado.

You can't say it wouldn't have happened in TN had someone been armed, but it certainly didn't hurt in Colorado.

[MadMaddie]

23. If I am correct she was a former police officer. She had prior

extensive fire arms training.

[Pavulon]

24. Lots of people have infantry training

or just boot. Police training does not make a person an expert.

[MadMaddie]

27. No but police training just as military training teaches an individual

how to react to threats.

[benEzra]

30. So does any decent martial art.

And unlike police, non-LEO CHL holders are not expected to wade into disputes to which they are not a party and sort out who is the "good guy"; we are not required to prevent suspects from escaping, to handcuff someone who is forcibly resisting you, to coerce people into letting us search or detain them, etc. We are ONLY allowed to use potentially lethal force when we or those around us are in imminent danger of death or seriously bodily harm, or a forcible felony. That takes most of the subjectivity out of it, IMO.

In this case, a guy in a church pulls a hunting shotgun out of a guitar case and starts shooting. That's not a scenario you need extensive FATS simulator training to tell you is a "shoot" situation, even if police training were as intensive as you see on TV.

FWIW, here is the Virginia State Police standards, based on the standard B21 target:

http://www.dcjs.virginia.gov/standardsTraining/documents/performanceOutcomes/section7.pdf

Have you ever seen a B21 target? They are HUGE. And you only even have to hit anywhere on the target with 70% of your shots to qualify, even given the extremely generous time allotments. Practically all competitive shooters could pass such a course.

[spin]

34. Totally agree...

Police officers qualify at regular intervals (yearly) and many have some difficulty qualifying. They don't view shooting as a sport or hobby, merely as an irritating requirement necessary to their job.

Competitive shooters are far better shooters than your average police officer. They shoot on a frequent basis and would have little or no problem qualifying on a B21 target.

In fact, many regular shooters who don't compete are better shots than your average police officer.

Police officers do have a distinct advantage when it comes to handling bad situations because their job exposes them to such incidents.

And, of course, some police officers enjoy shooting or take it seriously as their life may depend on their ability to shoot.

Actually, the Virginia qualification course appears to be well designed, but it's obvious that you don't have to be an expert shooter to pass.

[benEzra]

29. Many, perhaps most, non-LEO CHL holders have more extensive firearms experience

than most active duty police officers. Police firearm training and quals aren't rigorous for general patrol, although SWAT is a different story (for general patrol, shooting very easy courses of fire only twice a year is not uncommon). And becoming very competent with a firearm isn't something you can just pick up in a couple weeks squeezed in at the academy, or by shooting a single box of ammunition every six months.

FWIW, those who aren't particularly knowledgeable about or competent with firearms aren't the ones generally motivated to jump through all the legal and financial hoops necessary to get a CHL. There are surely occasional exceptions, but for the most part CHL holders are competent by any reasonable standard.

Having said that, a lot of CHL holders are former or retired police or military. A significant number of the rest are competitive shooters. My father has a CHL and is former military. My primary shooting mentor early on has a CHL and is a former police officer. I have a CHL and have been an avid shooter for over two decades, and could easily pass most state police firearms quals.

FWIW, to obtain a CHL, I had to pass a Federal background check, a state background check, a mental health records check, have my fingerprints run by the FBI (clean), take a class on self-defense law using a state-approved curriculum, pass a written test on same administered by my local sheriff's office, and demonstrate competence with a handgun on a shooting range, live fire.

Would you consider this to represent at least basic competence?



That's 3 shots at 21 feet, unbraced, with my carry gun (the top two holes are siamesed). I shoot competitively (IPSC/USPSA) with my carry pistol and gear, which puts me at a bit of a handicap but it is the best way to improve one's skills under stress. Expert? Not really. As competent as a typical non-SWAT police officer who is not "into" guns? Definitely.

And the fact remains that Jeanne Assam was carrying at church that day solely as an ordinary citizen with a concealed carry license, not as a security guard or "former police officer." Had Colorado prohibited concealed carry licensees from carrying in churches, none of the CHL holders that day (including Ms. Assam) would have had their guns with them.

[spin]

35. Looks like good shooting to me! (n/t)

[Smarmie Doofus]

4. Hmmm......

>>>>The Tennessee Valley Unitarian Universalist Church is a community that meets to worship and work together for social change, according to the church's Web site. Since the 1950's, the congregation has worked for desegregation, racial harmony, fair wages, women's rights and gay rights, according to the Web site. The congregation also has provided sanctuary for political refugees, fed the homeless and founded a chapter of the ACLU.>>>

Must be hard to find a UU church in rural Tennessee with 200 people in it at one time. Suggesting, I guess.... a certain focus and determination on the part of the perpetrator.

Tragic, sad..... yet scary.

[gatorboy]

8. I was surprised when I heard about the number of members myself.

The church my ex attended had a congregation of maybe 40 folks.

[Rue]

18. Actually . . .

The church is located on Kingston Pike near downtown Knoxville, along with many other churches and two synagogues. I go to TVUUC semi-regularly. Still, it's the biggest UU church in the area.

I would love to know what would motivate someone to do this. Takes an angry individual to shoot up a children's musical performance.

[applegrove]

7. It was a Unitarian church. That makes me even madder.

[benEzra]

13. Particularly if this murderer wasn't just your typical "nut"

but someone who hated them for their openness.

[applegrove]

15. Yes that is what I meant. This could be a hate crime & an attempt at mass murder.

[benEzra]

16. More details from a TN TV station:

http://www.volunteertv.com/home/headlines/25960934.html

UPDATE 7/27/8 7:08 p.m.: KNOXVILLE, Tenn. (WVLT) -- A neighbor who says she has known church shooting suspect Jim D. Adkisson, 58, for a few years tells Volunteer TV's Stephen McLamb that Adkisson has a problem with religion that stems from a childhood of being forced to attend church by his parents.

The neighbor says Adkisson believes the Bible contradicts itself.

If that were the case, it would be odd that he attacked a UU church instead of whatever denomination he attended as a child. I suspect there is more to it than this.

[philly_bob]

36. Not sufficient explanation.

Stand up in a UU or other progressive church and say that the bible contradicts itself, and the congregants are likely to ask: "Which contradiction are you referring to?"

[JerseygirlCT]

14. Two people dead now.

A woman in her 70s has also now died.

This is horrible.

[Peace Patriot]

17. Routine day in BushWorld! And the BushWhackies are out, crying "More guns!

More guns! More guns! More guns! More guns! Guns in churches! Guns in schools! Guns in your pockets! Guns in your bags! Guns in your cars! Guns in your baby carriages! Guns in your workplace! Guns in libraries! Guns in hospitals! MORE GUNS! MORE GUNS! MORE GUNS! Everybody shooting at each other! WHOOPEE! BushWorld! BushWorld! Ziss, boom, bah! Bang, bang! Shoot, shoot! Rah, rah, rah!"

[benEzra]

19. Do you have a point?

Carrying a hunting shotgun to church in a guitar case is already illegal in TN. So is shooting up the church with it.

Half of U.S. gun owners registered to vote are Dems and indies. Keep that in mind before lumping us in with freepers and Bushies, please.

And this shooting had nothing to do with those authorized by the state to carry firearms. What this guy did was illegal.

[Vickers]

28. How much of the Bill of Rights do you want to gut?

Simple question.

I mean, I could just as easily post:

"More words! More words! More words! More words! Sermons in churches! Speeches in schools! Kurt Vonnegut novels in your pockets! Gay literature in your bags! Pornography in your cars! Copies of the Constitution in your baby carriages! Printing presses in your workplace! Books in libraries! Planned Parenthood pamphlets in hospitals! MORE WORDS! MORE SPEECHES! MORE BOOKS! Everybody talking to each other! WHOOPEE! BushWorld! BushWorld! Ziss, boom, bah! Talk, talk! Talk, talk! Rah, rah, rah!"

:eyes:

and

:hi:

[Peace Patriot]

37. I lost my fiance to the Texas Tower Sniper in 1966, and fuckwad gun nuts were

out in force yelling "MORE GUNS! MORE GUNS! MORE GUNS! MORE GUNS!" over his bleeding corpse.

The 2nd Amendment was written at a time when most Americans lived on isolated farms with no electricity, no running water, no iPods, no computers, no telephones, no schools, no libraries, no paved roads, and only the horse for transportation, and with the British threatening to hang the rebel founders of our nation. It is INSANE to extrapolate that situation to this one. It is insane, macho, egocentric, utterly brainwashed behavior. The Texas Tower Sniper shootings should have resulted in banning of all private firearms, and disarming of the police as well--in a general disarmament of our society, like other civilized nations. Yet there were the gun nuts, using the occasion of my murdered fiance to yell, More guns! More guns! More guns! More guns! Guns in churches! Guns in schools! Guns in your pockets! Guns in your bags! Guns in your cars! Guns in your baby carriages! Guns in your workplace! Guns in libraries! Guns in hospitals! MORE GUNS! MORE GUNS! MORE GUNS! Everybody shooting at each other! WHOOPEE! BushWorld! BushWorld! Ziss, boom, bah! Bang, bang! Shoot, shoot! Rah, rah, rah!"...

...until we've reached the utter insanity of today. We are a SICK society, at that time preparing to slaughter TWO MILLION Southeast Asians for our insane predatory capitalist ideology, and today, a million innocents slaughtered in Iraq to get their oil for insane predatory capitalist globalisation. The two things are related--an utterly unsafe society in which everybody lives in fear and thinks they need a firearm to protect their wad against everybody else, and the U.S. military hijacked by global corporate predators for a corporate resource war.

This could have been the millennium of peace. Yet the U.S. instead has deliberately fostered a worldwide arms race--and an arms race here at home.

Guns everywhere. The threat of instant death for looking at someone crosswise. The threat of WW III with the trigger finger of unaccountable leaders. The worship of shooters on TV, with scripts manipulated to make people believe that shooting other people, and brutalizing "perps," is necessary, and righteous.

Off. Our. Rockers.

[uppityperson]

20. It was a UU church? What the heck?

[AnnieBW]

22. I wonder if he knew someone in the congregation

My first thought was that he may have known someone in the congregation - possibly his ex-wife or someone else. That happened in a church in Virginia a few years ago. Guy came into church and shot it up to get to his ex-wife.

[mzmolly]

32. Horrible.

:(