The "Post-Don't Tase Me, Bro" Society.

[Bonobo]

I just showed "Don't Tase Me, Bro" (video of the famous taser incident at the Kerry speech) to my 13 year old daughter.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6bVa6jn4rpE&feature=related

She could't even watch until the first tasing. She was so appalled to see police acting like that and the audience cheering it on like a bunch of stupid sheep.

Thank god she was appalled. It was a real slap in the face reminder to ME that when we lose our sense of outrage, we lose a lot.

In fact, it is probably this phenomena (loss of outrage, frog in the boiling water syndrome) that is responsible for where we are.

We all need to wake up to our ideals and ethics and start sticking to them and demanding them -or we will never secure our rights again.

http://www.smh.com.au/ffximage/2007/09/19/meyer_wideweb__470x335,2.jpg


Other lovely tasing incidents:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5g7zlJx9u2E
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KSG19c3elhQ&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NQXoczxzwYk&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tb1FWt81lS4&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FZ3GXLpClD4&feature=related

TASERS ARE TORTURE.

[trumad]

1. Don't know what video you saw---but the crowd wasn't cheering the cops on...

I didn't agree with the tase but the guy should have had his ass drug out of the venue.

[Bonobo]

3. Many certainly were. Watch again.

Laughter (albeit nervous) was also present as he was on the ground with the security on top of him.

Rude, obnoxious, idealistic, insufficiently respectful -call the kid what you want. But to focus on HIS behavior rather than focusing on the behavior of the security guards, crowd and even Kerry is simply short-sighted and missing the point I am trying to make.

The point, if I need to say it again, is that WE have lost our moral compass if we think that was in any way acceptable. And losing your moral compass is one thing, but becoming so brainwashed that you think that the police have a right to do shit like that is real problematic if you want the future generations to have something called 'civil rights' -because they are fought for, not always inherited.

[karynnj]

11. The problem in the videos is they were shot by people near him

The Senator said that he did not know of the tasing until told after the event was over. This is very credible if you consider the relative strength of Meyers' voice and the AMPLIFIED Kerry voice in conjunction with the fact they were much closer to Meyer - given their relative sizes in the video. You can hardly hear Kerry - who has a very strong voice even without a mike. Most of the audience was listening to Kerry - as can be seen by the fact that their responses are to his comments.

It seems clear to me that given that Meyers was loud and out of control from the beginning, they likely ignored the disruption - implicitly thinking they already knew what was happening. I've been at events where disrupters were removed as swiftly as possible (without any violence to my knowledge) - and stained to focus on the main event while that occurred. At that point, a huge percent of the audience had likely labeled Meyers as a troublemaker.

The officials had the right to expel him, though they should have let Kerry handle it when he volunteered to do so. They clearly over reacted when he continued to fight being removed from the room even when he was near the back.

[TomInTib]

2. When that guy asked to not be tased, the cops should have complied.

And beaten the shit out of him with their nightsticks.

Given him something to remember, every time he looked in the mirror.

He was a complete boor, a total ass.

[Bonobo]

4. Being a bore/ass = a license for cops to beat up a kid?

You are a fountain of wisdom, from your dumping on the Dalai Llama, to your apologies for fascistic displays of authoritarianism.

[TomInTib]

5. The guy was an ass.

I cannot believe that our Society has devolved to the point where we would be expected to put up with behavior such as that guy exhibited.

I'll bet he was one of those children who throws tantrums in restaurants.

If he had acted like that in my house, he would have been looking down a large-caliber muzzle.

And I meant what I said about the Dalai. Have you had much conversation with him? He just talks in circles, platitudes. Nice enough guy, but he didn't even earn the job. That's the part that gets me. I don't have much truck with pre-ordination. Hell, I had to learn to play guitar, to make a living.

[Mojorabbit]

6. I disagree

It is wrong. Since I was a teen in the seventies I have seen a creeping police state advancing in this country. From urine drug testing to tasers. Swat teams used on a daily basis for small crimes. Police forces aquiring military equipment. Little by little we have come to accept loss of privacy. We have accepted being patted down at airports, checkpoints on the highway to check for alcohol. Children in school are subject to search and grow up thinking it is normal.
As each loss is absorbed, more occur. A slow but steady pace and I don't like what I see at the end of the road.

[TomInTib]

8. I know all of that. But the guy was being an asshole.

He was being an ass, solely for the sake of being an ass and getting attention, pure and simple

That's the deal.

Police State or non, behavior such as that is way out of line.

[karynnj]

12. Not to mention he set out to create his own event at the student event

Had he followed the rules, he could still have asked the Senator his question - as a conservative woman who wrote up what happened did. She was too far back when the Q & A ended, so she asked her question after when Kerry was meeting people afterwards. As a self identified conservative, she disagreed with him but she got a polite answer.

That was never Myers' intent. Had he wanted an answer, all he would have had to do was to quietly listen once Kerry started to answer his first question - instead of speaking over him to add more questions. The fact is, that contrary to Myers, Kerry has politely answered all the questions he asked in other venues. No one came to hear Myers rant - they came to hear Kerry speak on international foreign policy, an area where he is a top Democratic expert.

Consider Meyers' and friends had their edited video to a local (Republican leaning) paper hours before he was out of police custody. In addition, consider what appeared in the news - Kerry's thoughtful speech or this clown.

[SidneyCarton]

15. If being an ass is justification in and of itself for a tasing,

then we all should be tased, and often. I agree, this kid was no saint, no selfless martyr for the first amendment, but neither was Larry Flynt, and his contributions toward the maintenance of freedom of speech must not be overlooked, no matter how abhorrent I may find the way he uses that freedom.

This was an overreaction, a dangerous overreaction that should stand as a warning to the rest of us. If this guy was being disruptive, he should have been removed, there are ways of doing this that are non-violent and far less cruel than tasing. In the end this was an abuse of power that has become all too common in recent years, it must be stopped before any dissenting voice is similarly met with 10,000 Volts.

[Bonobo]

16. OMG. Thank you!

It's been one scary post after another on this thread.

I am losing hope for the humanity of this country. It seems we have become so cruel and lost all perspective.

Fucking disturbing is all I can say.

[TomInTib]

20. Uh, he threw a punch at that cop, too.

Where I was raised, that could get you killed. Even back in the '50s of my childhood.

I believe the cops often over-react, but that is nothing new. You'll find few meek, empathic types in uniform.

They were trying to remove him peacefully, but he decided to set the table, himself.

I think that there are too many people here who have had minimal (if any) exposure to down-and-dirty Law.

When the cops are around, the game is theirs, pure and simple.

[Bonobo]

21. You always seek to justify on "pragmatic grounds", but...

You always seem to say:

"You young whipper-snappers have to learn that it isn't a matter of who is right and who is wrong. Argue with cops and you're gonna get beat down, that's all. I know I did when I was young! But I have learned!"

Well, the problem with this is that, in the end, it can only lead to further and further passive responses to an increasing level of fascism. Yes, we can argue about pramgmatism, afer all no one WANTS to get beat up. HOWEVER, all through history people have stood up against injustices even when it put them at risk.

Remember that tasing incident at UCLA in the library? What about that? The security guards were heavily outnumbered by students. If you ask me, the students should have pounded the fucks into jelly when they witnessed what they did. Other countries seem to have no trouble understanding what is beyond the pale. We have simply been conditioned to expect less, and part of it is because of the very fear that I hear in your posts.

[SidneyCarton]

22. Did he really?

Then he was a fool. The one thing I've learned about the cops is you must always be careful around them. They are quick on the trigger as that keeps them alive, thus no reason should ever be given to make a cop feel that you are a threat. This is an unfortunate compromise of liberty, I agree but it is also common sense.

If I said he didn't deserve tasing, well I will admit that violent action toward the police somewhat changes the situation. That said, I have a problem with those who cheered the tasing (few in number though they might have been.) While I understand the savage glee that comes of seeing an annoyance harshly put down, one might stop and consider, that under different circumstances, you would be the target of the taser. There is nothing to cheer for here, merely foolishness begetting further foolishness.

[Bonobo]

25. I never saw an attempted punch. nt

[SidneyCarton]

26. The everlasting eyewitness problem.

1000 people see an act, no one has the same story, and so we have endless subjectivity. "The punk had it coming", or maybe not? In the end there is the testimony of the cop, and the kid, both of which we can assume will be self serving to some degree or other. Who to believe?

:dilemma:

[Bonobo]

27. Trust your gut.

We should not allow police or security to electrocute someone for voicing his opinion (even if it is obnoxious! !).

That's the end of the story.

He was NOT a threat. He was a bore. That does NOT justify ANY violent response, let alone a tasering. Period. Full stop.

[SidneyCarton]

28. No argument with your points, bores do not deserve electrocution

If so, then I would be a prime candidate.

That said, I don't trust my gut, it doesn't think, it just reacts, and has proven itself fickle in the past. Immediate reaction is impassioned, sincere, and often wrong.

But those who cheered are fools, their glee is as those who cheered the guillotining of Louis XVI, only to end up under the blade themselves soon after.

[TomInTib]

30. It was clear as heck in the video.

I couldn't believe what I was seeing.

[Sanctified]

29. I agree with you, if their were more nightstick beatings I think people would be happier. n/t

[malaise]

7. 100% correct

For too long we sat back and allowed the goons to ride roughshod over our rights and space. Fight back.

[Bonobo]

9. It is why I train.

To protect myself and my loved ones.

[trumad]

10. Train?

What---you going to kung fooooo all the cops?

snarf

[karynnj]

13. What about the rights of the students who organised the event and

the students who came to hear the Senator? There are limits to the right to heckle.

A heckler does not have infinite freedom of speech - preventing the event from continuing. Here's an article from a civil rights expert, Nat Hentoff. Note, that he blames the police, as well as Myers, for causing the problem.

"Under First Amendment law, you can loudly question, disagree with, or heckle a speaker—unless you make it impossible for the speaker to continue. That’s called “the heckler’s veto,” and is not protected by the First Amendment.

In this case, as the insistent Meyer’s own speech was fractured—his microphone cut off, college police wrestling him to the ground, handcuffing and then Tasering him—the speaker, Kerry, was saying, “That’s all right, let me answer the question.”

Then, as the boisterous student was screaming for help and pleading not to be tased, the former presidential candidate told the audience that he still wanted to answer Meyer’s “very important question.”

Clearly, this speaker was not unable to continue. On the contrary, in what I consider one of Kerry’s finest moments—amid all the turbulence, much more of it caused by the campus police than by Meyer—he still wanted to go on. "

http://www.villagevoice.com/blogs/runninscared/archives/2007/09/hentoff_on_the.php#comments

(I get an error message - so either VV has taken this down or they are having problems - the quote was a 4 paragraph quote I excerpted on DU back when this was on issue.)

Here, had the police not intervened then - and Meyer continued preventing Kerry from responding - as he did on the first question - this would have clearly placed have been a "Heckler's Veto". The police likely moved too quickly - especially as Kerry was completely willing to answer. He might have been able to defuse the situation as he often has or it would have been even more obvious that Myers was attempting to turn the Kerry event into the Myers event - even though no one came to see Myers.

[Bonobo]

14. No equivalence.

The crowd's "right to not listen to a heckler" does not rise to the same level of importance as a citizen's right not to be tortured by electrocution.

We're talking wildly different levels of importance here.

It makes me sad to read your response.

[karynnj]

17. I was not saying there was a right to tase him

I was saying that the students who organized the event had the right to signal the police to remove him. When the police told him they were expelling him, he should have complied. The question is how do you control a pretty big guy flailing around to avoid being removed? That's partially why they should have let Kerry, who was handling him very well before the police intervened, continue to try to calm him down.

That does not mean they should have tased him, though it looked to me like they were angered when he ducked into the space between the last 2 rows, making it hard to get him out of the room. The guidelines of force that can be used given the level of resistance were met - those guidelines might be what you should question. Your post questioned the students and Kerry - and they had nothing to do with the police action and in fact the majority (including the Senator) had no knowledge of what the police actually did.
As Meyers was screaming when he was near the mike, before the police hurt him in any way, I assume that no one thought his later (remote from the back of the room) screams were anything different.

[Bonobo]

18. Thanks for clearing up your position.

Yes, I am also criticizing the students in a way, but not in the direct manner you think I am. What I am trying to say is that we, the people, have become far too accustomed to sitting back and watching bad things happen like spectators watching a TV show.

The police should not act like that and the citizenry should not allow them too. I think we have been conditioned to see brutality practiced right in front of our eyes -and it is the net, long-term effect of that kind of conditioning that has me deeply worried about the future of our society.

WE WILL WALK RIGHT INTO THE OVENS IF THEY TELL US TO. THAT IS WHAT I THINK. METAPHORICALLY SPEAKING.

[karynnj]

19. Thanks -

I read many comments that were posted by students at the time who were there. That is my basis for saying that many did not know that he had been tased. If you were at an event where you were interested in what the speaker was saying or whatever the event was and there was a disturbance up front and the person, loudly resisting being expelled was taken out would you continue to watch the police ejecting the man or turn back to listening to the event. This was a huge auditorium and at the end he ducked between the last two rows. The vast majority of the kids saw nothing and couldn't be expected to distinguish between the earlier screams at the police and these. The point where the students applauded the police was when they moved to take him out of the forum once he started his speech. They clearly were not happy with Myers' behavior.

The Senator, up on the stage, working to restore calm to the large crowd as the police ejected him could not have seen anything more than the police scuffling with this guy. His office immediately said he had not known and there is no reason not to believe him.

If I were you, I would focus my anger here on (1) guidelines that suggest this as a response earlier than you agree with, (2) the police and (3) Myers, who refused to listen to legitimate police orders, whether he agreed or not.

[RainDog]

23. Excessive Force is a legal issue and should be defined in the courts

Excessive Force Law & Legal Definition
Related to Excessive Force

Excessive force by a law enforcement officers is a violation of a person's rights. Excessive force is not subject to a precise definition, but it is generally beyond the force a reasonable and prudent law enforcement officer would use under the circumstances.

Force should be used in only the minimum amount needed to achieve a legitimate purpose. Police brutality is a direct violation of the laws within the police force. The use of excessive force is also a direct violation of the Fifth and Fourteenth Amendments of the U.S Constitution regarding cruelty and protection of the laws.

Now that police are taser happy, the courts need to help the law enforcement officers to understand what comprises excessive force in the use of tasers in order to stop all this shit that is happening.

Cheney's sadistic American society (torture is okay. people being above the law is okay.) isn't a good place to live.

[Bonobo]

24. Indeed! eom