I lost my temper good and proper on Saturday at some Abortion protesters.

[IdaBriggs]

With the benefit of hindsight, I could have/should have handled things better, probably by ignoring them; I'm tired a lot lately (the twins are 17 months old -- woo hoo!), and I've noticed my fuse is a lot shorter than it used to be. There is also a lot of stress going on with the purchase of a new home (closing was Friday), and recovering from a Hot Water Heater Incident mid-June. We still don't have the washer and dryer hooked back up as we're waiting for the laundry room floor to be installed.

Anyway, I was on my way to the laundromat at 8:00 in the morning Saturday (husband and the babies were still asleep) when I noticed a 'small crowd' (four or five people) on the side of the road. It didn't take much effort to read their large signs (Abortion is Murder, etc.) and that was how I came to find out there was a Women's Clinic at that particular location. I mentally shrugged, and was continuing on with my life, when I saw The Sign.

Many of you have already seen it. I'd heard about it, but the impact it had on me on was immediate, visceral, and had me turning my car around as my brain exploded in pure fury.

It was a small, bloody baby cut into little pieces, and labeled '21 weeks old'. (The print was small, and I didn't see it until I was right next to them.) The picture was large, graphic and extremely disturbing. It was also obviously designed to get a reaction, and it got one.

It was Bullshit, and it completely enraged me.

I pulled into the parking lot, and 'engaged' the protesters in a heated conversation. Well, that makes it sound like I was coherent, because honestly, it was not one of my more ... courteous ... moments. I think by the end of it, I called them everything except Christians, while not using any obscenities, which in hindsight, I'm a little bit proud of. I called them Evil and Ignorant and Liars several times, and I refuted their arguments by pointing out God was in charge of when souls entered the body, and for thousands of years, 'conception' wasn't when it happened, other people's medical decisions were NONE of their business, but regardless, Their 'Picture' Was Over The Line.

They tried to justify it by saying 'one woman said it stopped her from getting an abortion' and I told them I didn't give a Rat's Ass (maybe I did swear a little), it was a graphic misrepresentation, and completely inappropriate as a sign on a public street. They asked me why I cared, and I think were shocked when I got out of my car to yell at them about my friend "J" who had to have a late term abortion because her baby had a rare birth defect that meant he would die as soon as he was born, unless he received an immediate heart transplant or lived on a machine for a few years before he died. It was pictures like they were putting up that had helped to make their hellacious situation even more painful. Seeing their sign was throwing me unexpectedly back into the memories of that horrible, horrible time -- holding her while she sobbed at the injustice of being told her wanted baby wasn't going to make it, and then being told 'by the way, its a boy.' I don't want to think of the pain SHE would have been in if she had been the one to see that sign instead of me.

And then there were the memories I didn't share of my own twins being so small (they were 4 pound preemies), and the other babies in the NICU. WTF was wrong with these people???

You don't put pictures of cut up babies on the street (and that is what this sign was) without expecting to get a reaction. They got one from me. I called the police.

Yes, it wasn't the brightest move, but let me repeat, I was furious. I felt violated at a deep level, and I didn't know what else to do.

The police officer was courteous, but to his credit, he told me he wasn't going to do anything because they had a right to protest. I told him to look at the sign, but he repeated that he wasn't going to do that, and that I had probably given them exactly what they wanted because now the cars driving by were automatically paying attention to the flashing lights of his police car, and meanwhile, another officer was going to have to come to make sure *he* was safe (implied: from the crazy woman throwing a conniption because of some anti-abortion protesters). I told him I didn't care about their 'Abortion is Murder' signs because I believed in the first amendment and free speech, but cut-up babies was over the line, and OBSCENE. He asked why I cared, and I told him about "J" while barely holding back the tears. (This all happened pretty quickly.) I asked him what else where they going to do -- put up graphic pictures of our dead soldiers???

(Yes, I know some people think that would help the war to end sooner, but that isn't the point.)

I left (with one last shout of "EVIL!" which they clearly understood was aimed at them, and not the action they were protesting), and did my laundry. Their sign had the exact opposite affect they were aiming for, because I resolved to return to the clinic, and offer my services as an escort/volunteer/whatever was needed, which I did two hours later.

The interesting end to this bit was that when I came back, the protesters were gone. (I had seen my police officer going over to talk to them, altho I obviously don't know what was said.) The clinic workers pulled me into the back when I mentioned them (they didn't want their clients to have to overhear anything about it), and asked if I knew anything about the police having been there that morning. (They said the police were watching the protesters leave when they arrived at the clinic that morning.) I confessed I had been the one to call them, and they explained they keep 'unplanned' hours to avoid the protesters. They thanked me for my support, took my information, and I apologized to them for having lost my temper/given the protesters the attention they were looking for, which they chuckled over, and told me not to worry about. I left, politely averting my eyes from the half a dozen women in the waiting room, altho I did compliment the teddy bear one young woman was holding (she was sitting by the door, and our eyes met very briefly).

I could have/should have handled things better, but for the sake of those women who were having a rough day, and the other "J"s out there, I'm glad I flipped out. It was an extremely unpleasant experience, and I am more than a little embarrassed about it, but it happened. I don't know what to do next. Should I call the township this morning, and see if there is anything that can be done about 'graphically violent' images? Was I right that a line had been crossed between 'visual assault' and 'free speech'? And what can I do to make sure the clients of that clinic don't have to be harassed by Evil People???

Its two days later, and I'm still thinking about it with energy focused exactly opposite of where they would have liked it to be. I wonder if they care?

[Demeter]

1. For What It's Worth, I Think You Did Some Good

The ignorant and foul walk all over us, because we are "nice people". It's about time they got some honest reactions to inform their actions. Those people will think twice about what they are doing.

[nikto]

152. Most of those "protesters" LOVE WAR...

...and likely believe in Armageddon/The Rapture,
and think that Jesus is a warrior who favors the Elite
and spits on the Poor.

I give them all the respect they deserve----None.

They are more Wacko/rightwing than American.

[The Doctor.]

190. I pulled over to ask some anti-choice people exactly that.

They were standing outside a clinic in Buffalo (on the same sidewalk), there were about 12 of them, and they were all holding signs with varying levels of grotesqueness. Playing to their issue I said to an older grey-bearded gentleman wearing a cap; "So you are against the destruction of innocent life?

"Yes, absolutely."

"I can respect that... so then you're very unhappy with our invasion of Iraq..."

"Well, I'm not happy with any killing. And I'm not happy with war of any kind."

I said 'thank you, I admire your consistency'.

Frankly, I was surprised my expectations were overturned, but like they say... 'judge not in ignorance'.



I'll make a point of continuing to do this so I can get a better sample, but I'll bet that guy was a rarity.

[malaise]

2. Bravo IdaBriggs

Fight back. :yourock:

[Triana]

3. I don't have any ideas about what else you can do but I do want to THANK YOU...

...for what you did and for volunteering at the clinic.

I think you probably thwarted them a bit - and next time the freaks are out there - if you're there escorting, they'll see you and you can help keep them out of the client's way as you help her inside.

[LiberalEsto]

4. I share your feelings - I've reached my limit

Here's something I posted in the famous supermarket thread the other day:

"I also think many of us on DU have been so traumatized by the unconstitutional excesses and abuses of the current Misadministration, that it is understandable if our tempers have become short.

Just about every day since the Supreme Court conferred the role of president on that incompetent Bush and his sneaking, lying, torturing sidekick (or puppeteer), we have been forced to put up with "free speech zones" and tasers, Homeland Security excesses, the shame of belonging to a country that declares war for the heck of it and routinely tortures its prisoners of war, the abrogation of our freedoms, unregulated government spying, and so much more. We've watched our national resources sold off to political cronies, and seen environmental, consumer, labor and many other protections eroded.

On top of that we've had to take years of non-stop crap from right wing jerks who call us traitors for opposing an unjust war, and "religious" loonies seeking to force their narrow beliefs about Creationism, abortion, women's rights, birth control, education, freedom of speech and many other things on us.

We've had our cars vandalized for displaying pro-choice bumper stickers. We've had homes vandalized for displaying posters of Democratic candidates for office. We've had Democratic Party voters illegally struck off eligible voter rolls. We've had election headquarters sabotaged by Rethug dirty tricksters. We've had voting machines and election results sabotaged by cheating, lying, thieving Rethugs. We've been spied on by police for attending peace rallies.

We've had people lose homes to foreclosure because the Misadministration believes in letting banks and big corporations run roughshod over us. We've had thousands upon thousands of Americans lose jobs because corporations are allowed to skip town and hire cheap foreign labor, or import foreign labor on H1B visas and throw more Americans out of work. We've watched the federal surplus turned into a gargantuan deficit as the maw of this bullshit war sucks in human lives and human resources like a black hole.

I could write on for hours about the crimes of the current Misadministration, but my point is this.

We've taken far too much shit from all these bastards for nearly 8 long years, and we're at the boiling point. I, for one, do not want to give any of these bastards another inch, and if one of them feels they can shove their "religious" or political horseshit at me, they deserve everything they're going to get back."


For anyone who somehow missed the supermarket thread in GD, the OP wrote about cussing out some religious nuts/pests who approached her a second time outside a supermarket. Some DUers took her to task for being rude; others, like myself, said what these proselytizers do is disrespectful and rude, and that being rude to them is the only way to shut them up.

I think the main point is that we've taken far too much crap in the past 8 years, and we're rightfully losing our tempers.

[Danascot]

80. Nice rant

My thoughts exactly!

:woohoo:

[MiniMe]

5. Good for you

And good story you told them. Of course they would have whined if it was pubic dollars that was paying for the child if she hadn't had the abortion.

The thing that irks me most is the men who are protesting. Since when have they had to carry a baby and go through what a woman has to go through. My response to men who are protesting is: If you are a man and you are against abortion, get a vasectomy.

I am obviously pro-choice. While I wish it wasn't necessary, for some women it is the only choice in their situation. The one thing that bothers me is people who use abortion as a form of birth control. Accidents and bad situations happen. But not using birth control and getting pregnant again, only to have another abortion is just wrong IMHO. And I did read a post like that in a woman's health forum once, and it was about 6 or 8 weeks later and they thought they were pregnant again and asking if they could abort again that soon after having just had an abortion. While I agree that she should have a choice, she was abusing it IMHO.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

6. You had a right to be angry

And the cut up baby photo was way over the line.

I wonder if these zealots also thing that contraception is "killing babies"? If you could find out, and it is so, an op ed in your local paper or a piece by a local TV station could lead to interesting repercussions.

[The Wizard]

127. To them any form of contraception is baby killing.

That's why they impeached Clinton for lying about a blow job. I wonder if they save all the sperm as a result of their carrot waxing and monkey spanking.

[Maine-ah]

7. I have seen the same pic at a protest at a local fair

a few years ago. Yes, the have the right to protest, but there were so many children, young children seeing that picture and pointing asking their parents about it. There are places and times for protests for what a person believes in, but this certainly was not the place.

[pleah]

8. Good for you! These people don't understand 'nice' .

I think you have to stand up to these people and force them to face their own hate.

[ellie]

9. Good on ya!

Reading your story made me angry! I wish I would have been there with you. I am not sure what these idiot forced birthers think about pro choicers, but I have had it with their hypocrisy. I went nine rounds with some dumb hillbilly, calling him a hypocrite because these people don't care about real live babies being killed (in Iraq). He looked at me and whined, "I'm sure some white baby wants to live too." I called him a worthless racist and told him to fuck off. Then he started going on about Clinton.

Anyway, I think you handled it well. Give them pause. Pro choicers are mad as hell and aren't going to take it anymore.

[Generic Other]

10. The one time I lost it in public the same kin dof scenario

I was shouting at them at the top of my lungs and incited one of them to charge me with a Bible. Her cohorts held her back before she throttled me. I could feel the pages of the book as she angrily waved it under my nose.

Even though I lost it that day, I was glad that someone got in their faces. I just kept remembering my friend's daughter who was told the baby was brain dead and yet the Navy hospital wouldn't perform an abortion. Those people could care less about the real suffering they are directly responsible for causing.

[Mnemosyne]

11. Ida, those pro-back alley abortion encouragers deserved exactly the response

you gave them. They claim legal and safe abortions cause long-term emotional damage to women; when it is more their screaming and howling that cause the most damage.

Thank you Ida! :hug:

[AlbertCat]

121. Yes!

That unfortunate late term fetus' mother no doubt had her terrible and emotional but no doubt necessary abortion in a clean sterile environment by professionals. The poor fetus was more than likely not aware of anything, but the mother was fully conscious and in enough distress as it was. Just what she needed to add to her woes: religious bullies harassing her at her most vulnerable moments or some secret back alley procedure that also makes her a criminal. How about some pics of the some of gruesome results of those?

Wait....why is there even a pic of such a thing? How do we know it's not the result of some crime....an illegal abortion maybe. We know nothing about the pic but what the protesters tell us.

[BlueJazz]

12. I also used to "Ignore" these people but lately I love getting in their faces.

These people have proven time and time again that they're ignorant liars.
They distort the facts.
Lie..and on top of it all, do the very things that bring on MORE abortions.
A lot of Woman abort because of monetary situations. (which in itself, doesn't matter..I believe a woman's body is Hers and can and should Abort for WHATEVER reasons she deems necessary)..But these Protesters Vote for the very scumbags that bring down wages, cause most people to have Zero Insurance and make Life all the more harder.

I despise them....and WILL answer their Bullshit. PS: Being a 6'2 Male helps my Courage. :) :)

[Junkdrawer]

13. Interesting experiment:

Call the same cops and say there are protesters with pictures of dead Iraqi children waving them in front of ongoing traffic.

My bet is that the reaction will be different.

[Iwillnevergiveup]

14. Well, since I wasn't there

you certainly spoke for me, Ida!:hi:

[patrice]

15. Personally, I don't think those signs are a violation of 1st Amendment rights and I would have NO

problem with them if they would just put pictures of disembowelled Iraqi children up with them.

Solidarity, IdaBriggs.

[Chulanowa]

37. There's the question...

Did the woman who underwent the procedure authorize their use? Or the doctor at hand?

Somehow I doubt either would say "Sure, blow up my abortion and put it on a 24x16 to wave at traffic!"

I consider it a sort of exploitation pornography - the sick fucks who make these signs sure as hell get off on them

[pipi_k]

88. And just to be completely fair...

they also need to be holding signs with pictures of little kids whose parents, instead of availing themselves of abortion services, kept their unwanted babies and visited the most heinous, horrible injuries (and deaths) upon these poor little souls.

Babies beaten...little children locked in closets, tied to radiators, beaten, starved, burned with cigarettes, abused beyond imagination.

No...these assholes don't give a flying fuck about those kids

Bring 'em into the world and let 'em suffer. What do they care...they're on some sicko "mission from God".


Honestly, I don't truly hate very many people, but these "Pro Lifers" earn nothing but my eternal disgust. Not so much for their opinions, which they have a right to, just like everyone else....no, I despise them for trying to shove their opinions down the throats of everyone else in this world.

I truly hate them for their gross stupidity.

[Scout]

142. brava! well said, woman, well said n/t

[Coexist]

16. its good for them to know that not everyone agrees with them

You did good.

[Mad_Dem_X]

I do not blame you one bit

In fact, I applaud you for confronting them. It was also good that the incident made you offer your services at the clinic.

[formercia]

17. Their purpose is to divide us.

Some are sincere in their beliefs but many of the abortion protesters use this graphic to divide and polarize society for their own evil ends.
Some of these 'pro life' protesters bomb clinics, murder gays and other innocent people in their quest.

This movement is led by people who would overthrow the Constitution and impose a theofacist dictatorship that would be the Xtian mirror image of the government of Iran.

Thank you for standing up to them.

[patrice]

18. I talked to two deep-pockets registered Republicans at a fundraiser recently: It's about POWER

and absolutely nothing else. That's what they told me when I confronted them, politely, with their tolerance for these crazies.

[formercia]

26. A small minority maintaining POWER

by dividing the majority against each other. They use the same techniques that Monarchies have been using for Millennia.

Take a subset of the majority and make them the boogie man. When their gone, make another. Repeat as often as required to maintain power.

[patrice]

29. Absolutely right. This means we MUST get out there and BE WITH, as in right next to

your LOCAL candidates - BECAUSE - despite whatever happens at the national level, ALL of this stuff is coming to the state level and it would be NICE to get out ahead of the curve for a change instead of ALWAYS reacting to what others are doing.

[mmonk]

19. Their sign was intended to inflame.

They got what was due.

[Sadie4629]

20. At the risk of getting flamed (or worse)

Why did "J" have to have an abortion? Was her life or health at risk? Would it perhaps have been less traumatic for her to bring her child to term, even if it meant that he would die then? My sympathies are with your friend; I can't even imagine being in that situation. But, it sounds like her abortion was her choice, and not a medical necessity.

[ProfessorGAC]

22. Or. . .

. . .you could mind your own business. Just sayin'.
The Professor

[Name removed]

24. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[noamnety]

23. Generally it's safer to have an abortion than deliver a baby

that has gotten even larger. Smaller/earlier = less health risks for mom, including less risk of major surgery. Each week/month she delayed would have brought additional health risks. And in this case sounds like it also avoided additional physical pain for a terminal baby.

I take issue with your premise a little, cause it sounds like you are hinting that if this was her choice and it was traumatic for her maybe you think it was a stupid choice.

The situation itself sounds like it was traumatic, and NO outcome was going to eliminate that. It's unlikely carrying a fetus around another month and delivering a stillborn or a live baby and watching it die was going to help in any way - sure wouldn't have helped me. Sometimes all options suck.

[Sadie4629]

31. What I learned back in college biology

(30 years ago)was that childbirth is safer than surgical abortion, because our bodies are intended by nature to give birth. Something like that. Like I said, a very long time ago. The professor, BTW, was an outspoken pro-choice advocate. He was just giving us the facts.

Things may have changed, somewhat, with more modern procedures.

From the OP, I don't think we can determine whether the fetus was in pain. Anyway, I believe I have read that a fetus does not feel pain, which makes that a moot point. (It is also the reason no anaesthesia is given a fetus prior to a D&X procedure.)

I don't think it was a "stupid" choice. I take issue with the OP's contention that her friend "had to have" an abortion. It sounds like it was a CHOICE, and you are right, that there would have been no happy outcome regardless.

[sinkingfeeling]

38. Childbirth is not safer than a legal abortion according to the CDC.

http://www.jstor.org/sici?sici=0014-7354(198209%2F10)14%3A5%3C271%3ARCIATB%3E2.0.CO%3B2-V

Childbirth 11.1 deaths per 100,000
Abortion 1.9 per 100,000

[defendandprotect]

109. Not true; childbirth is riskier . . .

You seeming to be trying to find fault with "CHOICE" . . . ???

None of us actually knows what effects this was having on HER emotional and physical

well being --- that's why we leave it up to HER CHOICE . . . ----

[Name removed]

143. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Maddy McCall]

Key qualifier: "30 years ago."

[Name removed]

170. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[uppityperson]

178. Things have changed. eom

[colinmom71]

185. Hi Sadie. Just wanted to respond here without seeming like I'm "dog-piling" you....

Because that is not my intention....

Your professor's information was simply bad. Not all women's bodies are by nature made to efficiently and healthfully sustain and deliver healthy infants. Mine certainly wasn't. My son's previously described prematurity was due to "incompetent cervix", which is a weak cervix that cannot withstand the pressure of a burgeoning and late developing pregnancy. The day my pregnancy hit 24 weeks, my body gave out to that weakness and labor began. A complicated emergency C-section followed and left me at ever greater risk for potentially life-threatening complications for any subsequent pregnancies... Thus, my son remains an only child.

I sometimes fear that we've grown complacent in this modern age... It was just a century ago that the leading cause of death for women aged 14-45 was pregnancy and/or childbirth complications. Clearly, without modern medical science, women's bodies had actually been very vulnerable to the both amazing and frightful process of procreation. I worry that this has been forgotten lately since the majority of pregnancies in the USA end in the healthy, full-term delivery of a healthy and loved infant. Even 30 years ago, pregnancy and childbirth were far safer propositions than they were just 70 years before...

As for fetal pain, you can google the terms "fetal pain" and "RCOG" (Royal College of Obstetrics and Gynecology) and you'll likely find a study performed by the RCOG in 1997 concerning whether and/or when fetuses can perceive pain. They came to a consensus and determined that fetuses cannot perceive pain through their immature neural systems until around 26 weeks, which is when the final major neural connections are made between the body's nerve system and the hypothalamus of the fetal brain. This is when pain perception begins...

And I do have to admit, after observing several micro-preemies in the Level 3 NICU for almost 3 months (C transferred to the "step-up" level 2 NICU at about that time), I'd be willing to agree. Their reactions to procedures were extremely erratic during the 24-27 week marks (as adjusted for prematurity). Sometimes they seemed uncomfortable and other times they didn't seem to even notice that needle sticks and/or procedures were being performed on them. Mostly, they seemed to hate being restrained or held still for anything rather than reflexively reacting to what you and I would consider painful stimuli. 12 year old Colin, to this day, still cannot stand for anyone to hold his arms or legs down for long periods of time for any reason. Though luckily for us, C just thinks you're going to try to tickle him when you do that for shoe or clothing changes... Eh, at least he makes it silly fun for us all... ;)

[IdaBriggs]

35. I used to have all the medical stuff memorized. I remember

that the valves or something were reversed; as long as she was pumping blood for the baby, it would live, but when it was born, and its own heart was supposed to take over, it was going to die. The options were 'immediate fetal heart transplant' which they were told was beyond unlikely, keeping the baby alive on machines, with a life expectancy of four years NEVER off of the machines (and they were warned they would probably exceed an lifetime insurance maximum, such that the rest would have to come out of their own pockets, which they frankly didn't have), or giving birth/watching the child die.

There were no good options. :cry:

And then there were the financial issues; they had 'good' insurance, but as soon as they kicked over into 'bad things happening' their insurance moved them to a different place, and a $2K deductible kicked in. The situation was diagnosed on Monday, December 29th, and by the time all the tests/scheduling etc. were over, they were into the 'New Year' with ANOTHER deductible. It kind of felt like 'insult to injury', if you know what I mean!

They wrestled with the moral/ethical dilemma: what was best for their baby, what was best for their family,and what was best for "J"s mental/emotional/physical health. It was a horrible place to be, and the only thing we could do was be supportive to whatever decision they made, while praying we would never have to face a similar choice.

[Sadie4629]

47. It must have been a terrible time for them--

--and for you, as a close friend.

I don't question that your friend made the best decision she could have.

I do have an issue with the idea that she "had to have" an abortion, because the fetus had a serious birth defect. What's next? If someone finds out their fetus has Down Syndrome, will that be a matter of "have to?" If a couple has three daughters and wants one last chance for the all-important boy, if the next fetus is female, will they decide they "have to" abort? If there is ever a prenatal genetic test for sexuality, how will you react to someone saying they "have to" abort a gay fetus.

I think there is a slippery slope. If we begin thinking of abortion of a sick fetus as a medical necessity instead of as a very, very difficult choice, we risk trivializing it.

[knitter4democracy]

89. You weren't there. You can't judge.

The mother and her doctors made the best decision they could with the information she had. Your slippery slope argument doesn't belong here, and frankly, it's wrong. A mother with a baby who had no chance of a real life without exorbitantly expensive care that they cannot afford is already in a difficult position without someone going all "slippery slope" or "choice" on her.

[defendandprotect]

111. I hate to distract you from . . .

your fanatical fetal fantasies . . .

HOWEVER, have you noticed that mainly MALES in Congress are sending our youth off to be killed

in wars in Afghanistan and Iraq?

Have you noticed that our government has killed almost 200,000 innocent LIVING Iraqis ---

women, children???


Everyone of the decisions you are referring to are made by real lives families ---

there are individual consciences at work in EVERY ONE of those decisions . . .

If they need your help to decide, they'll probably call you ---


Let me also suggest to you that it is PATRIRACHy which produces the onslaught on females

which causes their being "disappeared" all over the world, which puts them into the international

sex-trade all over the world -- and which causes them to be aborted most often.


It is also organized PATRIARCHAL religions which spread the sickness of homophobia ---

So -- maybe you should get busy on those real issues --- ???


PATRIARCHY is a "slippery slope" . . . for women ---

[Ajaye]

130. Don't go down the slippery slope

You are comparing apples with oranges.
Did you not read the facts? Baby would have been born with a FATAL defect which would have caused its almost certain IMMEDIATE death anyway.

[uppityperson]

179. You weren't there and don't know the full circumstances, aren't qualified to judge.

Sometimes an abortion is a medical necessity for the fetus or the woman. It is not up to you to judge, but between the woman and her doctor.

[calimary]

186. Sadie, there is no "we." There is only the "she": the mother herself, and her own

individual, private, personal situation and decision based on that individual, private, personal situation. In other words, HER choice. Not mine. Not yours. Not ours. HERS. It's the woman's choice. No one else's. The idea of pro-choice is being pro (in favor of) a woman's right to choose. To choose WHATEVER. It's her decision to choose to continue, or discontinue the pregnancy. HER pregnancy. Not yours. Not mine. Not ours. HERS. The pro-choice idea means any woman's choice in the matter is hers and she can choose any way to go, whether it's to carry the baby to term or to end the pregnancy. And choice always means all options are on the table, while opponents would seek to shut down one set of options entirely. One is open and flexible. The other is rigid and restrictive. And frankly, the other is also meddling in the private affairs of others in an extremely personal and intimate decision that is no one else's business to begin with.

Don't mean to come down on you like a hard-ass. I've been yowling from my soap box a little too - um - insistantly lately. But I'm one of those pro-choicers who sees this issue as a non-negotiable. A woman's right to have the last word over what happens to her body (especially in the most intimate and private and personal reaches of her body) is an absolute. I and I alone have ultimate jurisdiction over my own body. Not some man. Not some politician. Not some priest. Not some ayatolla or mullah, foreign or domestic. And I believe every woman has that same ultimate jurisdiction over her body. This is one thing on which, as a woman and a mother, I can't ever compromise. It is sacrosanct. Completely and utterly non-negotiable. And for political candidates, this issue is a deal-breaker for me.

[DeeDeeNY]

199. Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes!

Thanks for putting it in perspective. Nothing else needs be said on this.

[colinmom71]

36. No flames, but I'm willing to guess...

That the baby had a very severe case of HLHS (hypoplastic left heart syndrome), where the left side of the heart is severely underdeveloped and incapable of effectively pumping blood throughout the baby's body. These days it's actually somewhat less likely for doctors to present terminating the pregnancy for HLHS babies except where the heart is so poorly developed that it's unlikely the baby would survive a day or so to even have the first of three surgeries to help relieve the worst symptoms of the heart defect. Odds are, this was the OP's friend's diagnosis.

The expense of having a baby with a sick heart, especially something as intensive as HLHS, is often untenable for most families. A lot of HLHS babies go through their $1 million health insurance capitation within the first year of life. Some may qualify for SSDI benefits, which includes Medicaid coverage, but not all. Add to this the stress of day-to-day living with a very ill infant in the NICU/PCICU, dreading the phone ringing anytime you're away from the hospital, learning the risks of each painful surgery and procedure (anoxic brain damage, surviving by-pass, anesthesia - just for starters).... Some people just aren't willing to put their child through all that especially if it may be a futile effort.

My son was a preemie (24 weeks and all of 1 lb. 4 ozs.) and I saw this happen so many times in the NICU. Of the numerous families we got to know during that 4.5 month hospitalization, I'd say that only half of those families were ones whose baby (or babies) didn't die. Of the babies that didn't survive, most were heart babies. It's terribly sad but it happens daily. I can completely understand why OP's friend made the decision she did... I can't imagine having to be visibly pregnant and having to constantly deal with strangers, or heck that nosy family member who denies reality, asking about the happy arrival when that arrival will be nothing remotely near happy...

[Sadie4629]

50. You know all too well what it is like to have a sick child

God bless you and your son. I hope his outcome was the best possible.

I'll have to do a Google search to verify, but I think HLHS was what "Baby Fay" had. If I recall correctly, she was born in late 1983, and was given a baboon heart. Lived a few days, and that was all.

I remember, because my son was born shortly after Baby Fay, and I realized how fortunate we were to have a healthy baby.

The situation the OP's friend was in is heartbreaking. She had a choice to make, and there were no good options. There are, however, people who do choose to bring their babies to full term, even knowing that they won't live more than perhaps a few hours. Resources are available to them throughout the remainder of their pregnancies, and after the births and deaths of their infants, to help them cope with the situation. I would never feel that they have made the wrong decision in continuing their pregnancies. I wouldn't want them to think they have to abort, as if there is something wrong with choosing to allow nature to take its course.

[colinmom71]

75. Thank you for your blessings....

That's very kind of you.

As for Colin's outcome, he survived, just not unscathed. About 50% of micro-preemies born around 24 weeks will go on to have life-long disabilities, and Colin is within that fifty percentile with severe sensory and cognitive disabilities. Luckily, he doesn't have any acute health issues like asthma or a compromised immune system or such. He is also a heart baby, but his heart problem is non-surgicable, non-life threatening, and has greatly reduced as he's grown.

I think you're right about Baby Fay having been an HLHS baby... Been a while since I'd read on that story though.

As for the OP's friend's story, she made the choice that was best for her and her family and it is a choice that was definitely medically justified. And yeah, I agree it's just as valid a choice for the parent(s) to decide to have the baby and pursue intensive medical options (BTDT). It's all about what they think they can handle going through and what they feel is in the baby's better interests. Sometimes it may be better to not put an infant through medical hell where there's little hope for a meaningful recovery.

As for resources being available, it's not truly that cut and dried. One stroke of luck we had with Colin is that he was born in Georgia under our pre-natal Medicaid program and they seamlessly transitioned him into Medicaid and SSDI coverage (hospital admin had the paperwork ready for us to fill out within two hours of his birth). The Early Intervention program was also quite well run and quite helpful with allocating referrals and coordinating care... But man, the horror stories I heard while Colin was in the NICU about Children's Medical Services in Florida (he was transferred to a FL hospital with a Level 3 NICU - had his first ride on a Leer jet at 4 hours old...)! Several of the families reported having care coordinators who never answered calls, never bothered with helping for referrals, and often lied about covered services like resources for the parents. Honestly, it seemed like CMS there was one huge game to avoid spending any funds on chronically ill kids and their families...

[defendandprotect]

114. In many cases, "nature taking its course" ..... is harmful to the female . . .

A long time ago --- before CHOICE ---

the actress Debbie Reynolds was pregnant with a child she very much wanted ---

Along about the 8th month, she was told that the child was DEAD in her womb ---

Abortions weren't allowed so she was forced to carry the pregnancy to term -- and delivery.


Needless to say, a quite uncomfortable period of time for her emotionally and physically ---


Sometime thereafter ---

Debbie Reynolds became pregnant again --- and again -- even earlier -- she was told that

the fetus was DEAD in her womb. AGAIN, no abortion was available in America.

So -- now she was MONTHS carrying this DEAD FETUS around -- not really telling anyone

because it was too sad. And, she was forced to go thru with it until the DEAD FETUS was

delivered.


And, guess what they finally determined from all of this ---

Debbie's body was depleted of vitamins which caused the first DEATH ---

and the second complicated even further by having to carry the first pregnancy to term.


There can be NO advantage --- physical or emotional -- to carrying around a damaged, DEAD,

or sick fetus ---

EXCEPT IN THE MINDS OF THOSE FOCUSED ON CONTROLLING WOMEN AND THEIR REPRODUCTIVE DECISIONS....

[rebecca_herman]

138. While I agree with you that it should be the woman's choice

I have a problem with the statement that there can never be any benefit to carrying to term a pregnancy with a poor fetal diagnosis. While I personally think I'd most likely abort in that scenario, I can imagine there are some women who might prefer to let nature take its course or who would see prolonging the pregnancy as a way to "spend some time" with their baby before it died. It's likely not what I'd choose, but I don't think it's fair to judge those women either for making a decision they thought was best for them at a really hard time in their lives. If you google carrying to term with a poor prenatal diagnosis you can find true stories written by women who *truly believe* the choice they freely made helped their grieving and healing process. You can also google terminating a pregnancy with a poor prenatal diagnosis and find stories of women for whom that was the right choice. And that's the key word here, choice, not judging a woman who made the choice best for her in a horrible situation.

Now obviously if the fetus is already dead nature already took its course and it should be removed obviously...

[defendandprotect]

149. What would those benefits be . . . ?

Is this what fanatical fetal fantasy finally brings you to . . . ?

I can imagine there are some women who might prefer to let nature take its course or who would see prolonging the pregnancy as a way to "spend some time" with their baby before it died.

Wasn't it one of the Congressmen -- Brownback --- whose wife delivered a dead fetus and they
brought it home so the children could visit with it and have its photograph taken . .. which
he had on display?

Perhaps we should be having a discussion as to whether religion is good for mental health?

Nor do I appreciate your suggestion that anyone here on the pro-Choice side is "judging" anyone ...
rather that shoe is on the foot of your anti-choice side ---

[rebecca_herman]

160. Why do I think so? Because the women who went through it said so

Who am I to tell them their feelings are wrong and they are liars? They said it was beneficial to them and they wouldn't trade having that time with their baby for anything. If that's how they feel, it's not my place to say they are a liar and that they would have been better off aborting even though they did what felt right to them. Feeling everyone in a situation should have an abortion and insisting if they chose otherwise they did something wrong is not "pro-choice" at all.

A pregnant woman with a wanted pregnancy has the right to bond with her pregnancy, to consider her fetus her child, and if she finds out her fetus is going to die she has the right to make decisions that are in her best interests and help her grieving process. How is it "fanatical fetal fantasy" to aknowledge that many women with a wanted pregnancy bond with the fetus and think of it as their baby? I'm not saying she has to consider it, that it is legally a child, just that there is nothing wrong with either choice. If she wants to deliver and let it die of natural causes afterwards why does that make her mentally ill? I can't say I understand it fully since I'd almost certainly choose differently, but heck, I don't understand a lot of choices people make in various areas of their life, but that doesn't make those choices wrong.

And while I am personally not very religious (I have no firm beliefs either for or against religion) I would never consider all religious people mentally ill. Having read up some on the topic in history and sociology classes, I believe that psychologically there are both potential benefits and potential harm from religion. But ultimately we have free will and if a person wants to use religion to guide their *own* choices and feels at peace with those choices that is their business not mine.

And yes, as far as I'm concerned, if you insist that anyone who made a particular choice is mentally ill and delusional and any benefits they saw from that choice and joy they gained from that choice is false and they are just too stupid to know what's best for them - I consider that juding them. I also consider it judging to say anyone who bonds with a wanted pregnancy and thus considers it their baby is fanatical. I guess I'm a fanatic too in your eyes since when I have kids someday I'm pretty sure I'll personally consider them my children already before birth. If you look at stories written by people who aborted a planned pregnancy due to a bad diagnosis - most called it a baby they loved too. So I guess they'd be fanatics too?

[defendandprotect]

162. You're overboard in ....

your obsession . . .


What I said to you is relate the benefits to the female ---

I intended that to mean physical health ---


but you're making the questions about religion as a negative for mental health much more

pronounced . . .

[rebecca_herman]

163. I'm not the obsessed one here

You're the one obsessed with how wrong someone who chooses not to abort in a particular scenario is and how they couldn't possibly be thinking straight (which sounds an awful lot like some anti-choice people who insist women are too stupid to decide for themselves to have an abortion, you think that anyone who would carry to term a fetus with health problems is too stupid to know what's best for them and/or mentally ill from religion). Mental health is JUST as important as physical health. That is why the woman herself has to make the choice of which option is best for *her.* I don't make a value judgement either way in this scenario. If the woman wants to abort, good for her if that's what she thinks is best for her. If she wants to continue the pregnancy, again, good for her if that's what she thinks is best for her. It's NEVER the best thing for a woman to be pressured to make a choice about her pregnancy that she feels is bad for her and her life. What I do make a value judgment on, however, is someone who automatically assumes their choice is the only right one for a particular pregnancy scenario. Not your pregnancy, and therefore you have no way of knowing what's best for that particular woman.

Also it's pretty narrow-minded to automatically assume anyone who would personally continue a pregnancy with problems is anti-women and doesn't think women should make their own decisions. There are pro-choice women who choose to keep pregnancies with problems because they decided it was the right choice for their life...

I am referring here to cases in which the fetus is still alive but will or might have problems and might or probably will die, obviously not cases where the fetus has already died. I have never heard of a woman insisting on carrying around an already deceased fetus for months.

I absolutely 100% think abortion should ALWAYS be a legal option here but if a woman decides against it I am also 100% against saying she had to be wrong and is delusional. People have the right to grieve in the way best for them. Even though I am not very religious because I am unsure of what I believe may or may not be out there, I know when my grandfather died recently I found his Jewish funeral service to be very comforting in my grief anyway. So I would certainly never judge someone's grief as wrong or say the time they had that they felt was worthwhile, was pointless or delusional.

[defendandprotect]

164. Bye, Rebecca . . .

you're on ignore ---

[rebecca_herman]

166. lol

Good for them I suppose if me DEFENDING CHOICE upsets them that much, but I have to say it's pretty sad that someone this narrow-minded claims to be pro-choice when they are bashing people who made a free choice and were happy with it, well at least as happy as you can be in a crappy situation.

[colinmom71]

172. That was Santorum actually. And I don't think Rebecca is being anti-choice...

What I think she's saying is that keeping legal the ability of the woman herself to choose what course she feels is best for her, be that physically, medically, and emotionally, should a woman face a pregnancy with a poor fetal health diagnosis. Some women may indeed want to just "get it over with" and terminate so as to avoid further risks to her health, and some may feel the need to remain pregnant for a while longer so they can still feel that they've bonded with that child they'd so hoped for and loved. Some women may just not be willing to be the one who gave the final word to ending a pregnancy with a wanted and beloved child (albeit in the future tense). It's up to the individual woman to decide what she's willing to endure and risk, and that is the essence of choice.

Of course in cases of a fetal demise, the risks are greatly increased and it is not wise to wait in case health complications arise for the woman's health or life. There *is* a reasonable and ethical point where her wishes to continue a clearly doomed pregnancy can be over-ridden in order to preserve her life. But that is a decision that's based on medical criteria, the doctor's professional assessment, and her next-of-kin's willingness to sign consent to terminate once the woman's wishes are found to be clearly against her better health interests.

There are no simple answers in these cases and that is why protecting individual choice is so very important... Even if it's a choice you may not initially agree with...

[Ms. Toad]

191. Perhaps you have never been presented with the diagnosis

that your much anticipated child will almost certainly die shortly after birth - or been around friends or family members who received such a diagnosis.

It truly is a heart-wrenching choice to have to make - and regardless of which choice is made (to continue the pregnancy to term or to terminate it), that choice belongs to the mother/parents and their doctor. It really is not helpful to treat the choice some parents make to continue a pregnancy under those circumstances as if that choice is not a valid choice. Supporting a woman's right to choose not to terminate a pregnancy is not "anti-choice," nor is pointing out the distinction between acknowledging that it is a choice as opposed to distancing oneself from the choice by describing the abortion as mandatory ("had to have an abortion.")

As for poking fun at Congressman Brownbeck, having photographs of your child can be an enormous aid in the grieving process. My brother lost a son days after birth to a heart problem. He had open heart surgery immediately after birth, and when it was clear that he would not survive, my brother and his wife decided to remove life support. Unfortunately, no one thought to bring a camera so they have no pictures of their son without the tubes and wires that kept him alive for his all-to-brief life. I wish at the time that we had been aware of http://www.nowilaymedowntosleep.com/, an organization dedicated to making it possible for parents to have lasting images of their children's brief lives. I doubt I would display such photographs, but I almost certainly would find them a private comfort had I lost a child near birth.

[calimary]

213. Welcome to DU! You're correct that it's not fair to judge those women in such

unhappy situations. But that's just it. There is no judgment. It's not about judgment. It's about NOT judging. EITHER WAY. It's that woman's individual private choice that she makes between herself, her situation, her conscience, her doctor, and her God. It's not up to the rest of us to sit in judgment. It's just not ours to judge. THAT'S what being pro-choice is all about. You ask - "what do YOU want to do." The decision is then made, and that's that. Period. You don't judge. It's not your place, to begin with. Even the New Testament says that. You don't force your views on somebody else, or your dictates about what's moral or amoral. It's none of anyone else's business.

[Boudica the Lyoness]

173. You said this

"I would never feel that they have made the wrong decision in continuing their pregnancies. I wouldn't want them to think they have to abort, as if there is something wrong with choosing to allow nature to take its course".

Your all over the place aren't you trying to be so pro life? Both my sons would have died during child birth if 'nature had been allowed to take it's course!

I choose to have two sons. I CHOOSE, god dammit, NOT YOU! BACK AWAY FROM MY BODY!

[notadmblnd]

44. and that would be your professional medical opinion?

Am I to assume that you're capable of diagnosing via the intertubes? I find that hard to believe or maybe not, since our politicians are capable of making medical diagnosis via video a la the Shiviao case. But again, we all know what a fool it made him look like.

[Sadie4629]

46. My comment was based on the OP's

story. A friend had a baby with a serious heart abnormality, and she aborted. The "had to have" was the part I was questioning. What were the dire consequences if she hadn't had the abortion?

[notadmblnd]

49. You not only asked a question, you made a judgement

hence my question to you. In answer to your question... I don't know what the "dire consequences" would have been and I don't claim to be a medical professional.. but I do know it's not my place to judge. I was taught that judgment was God's responsibility not humans.

[Sadie4629]

51. There was no judgment involved

It was a choice, not a medical necessity.

[notadmblnd]

58. that's your judgement.

[Maddy McCall]

155. You truly are an idiot. Do you think that Ida's friend suggested to the doctor...

that she WANTED an abortion?

Certainly the doctor prescribed the abortion as the best course of action.

How dare you pass judgment on someone, when you've NEVER been through the same experience.

Disgusting.

[Boudica the Lyoness]

171. So what if it's a choice?

back away from my body!!!!

[uppityperson]

180. "It was a choice, not a medical necessity." is a judgment on your part.

How do you know that? Were you there? Do you have all the facts of this case? Or are you just passing judgment?

[Hekate]

140. Sadie dear, you are nitpicking by continuing to repeat your quibble re: "had to have"

Women are full human beings and moral agents in their own right. If after due consideration and thoughtful input from her doctor and prayer or meditation or simply insight into her own life, she made this beyond-painful decision -- I for one would agree with her own assessment: she had to have this abortion. It was the best decision out of a bunch of really bad options.

Your focus on this one phrase is in itself a judgment on her decision.

Jesus.

Walk in her shoes for a mile, okay?

Hekate

[Arkansas Granny]

78. Had I known that my son would be born premature and spend his short

8 hours of life outside the womb gasping for breath and enduring surgery that failed to save him, I probably would have chosen to abort even though the pregnancy and delivery did not risk my health. I can't speculate as to which decision would have been less traumatic.

No flames intended, just another point of view. As you said, you can't imagine being in that situation. I can.

[pipi_k]

91. A short story, hopefully in explanation of your question

In 1974 I nearly had an abortion. At the time I already had two children, and had been deserted by my then-husband.

Everything was set...I had the papers in hand and the appointment had been made. I never did it. I couldn't...I just couldn't. Not that I don't believe in it...I believe wholeheartedly that women should have a choice, and that was my choice.

The ironic thing was that my child was premature, and died at the age of three months, of SIDS.

Had I known beforehand what would happen, would I have changed my mind and had the abortion?

To this day I cannot answer that question because I don't know the answer. Yes, it would have been easier never to have known the child I bore and never to have suffered through the pain and guilt of her death.

Either way...abortion or seeing your child die...is painful

Nobody can say either option hurts less or worse than the other.

We have to live with our choices and do the best we can with them.

[drmeow]

103. delete

[defendandprotect]

106. So you would have walked around for months with a dying baby inside of you . . .

and you think that is part of good health for the female ---

you see no danger of negative physical or psychological effects on her --- ???

And yes . . . CHOICE is what she has a right to ---

[Maddy McCall]

157. Excellent post.

:thumbsup:

Sadie's lack of human empathy is astonishing.

[rebecca_herman]

136. Well if you really care to know...

I imagine it could be VERY emotionally traumatizing to carry a baby you wanted for several months knowing with absolute certainty it is going to die. Also later in pregnancy the health risks for the woman go up so if there is no chance at a living baby the woman may not want to take that risk to her health.

If I was in that situation though I am pretty sure I would abort for mental health reasons. I just don't think I could psychologically handle carrying a baby I wanted knowing it was never going to live outside of me. I don't think it's fair to judge what people do when told their wanted child will never have a chance to live no matter what they do. I really want children someday and I just can't imagine going through that waking up every day knowing what the outcome of that dream gone wrong would be.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

139. The child was going to suffer and DIE

if it was born. It is a "choice"--but don't doctors and families make choices like this for patients all the time? Would it be wrong for them to make the "choice" to end the life of a patient who is terminally ill and in great pain? My mother in law would have been a vegetable if she had been forced to live--I fear that there are some who would say that everyone should be forced to choose "life" no matter how short or painful that life may be.

[mudesi]

144. "...it sounds like her abortion was her choice..."

If you're trying to make a point, you lost it right there.

[HughMoran]

167. Funny how abortion is legal in this country and none of your business who has one

:P

[aspergris]

21. It's called free speech

I am pro-choice, and am also 100% pro free speech.

If you would actually study the case law, you would see that the courts have upheld the right to use these graphic images in political protest - and not just for abortion (see: war protest)

There IS case law that says that when you hold up a sign like that near an busy intersection, yuo can be cited criminally because of the traffic danger. But as long as you aren't causing a traffic danger - such signs are entirely legal.

Free speech is often controversial and incendiary. That is the type of speech that needs the most protection.

[davekriss]

25. I would've liked to snuggle up close to that crew...

...and hold up a picture of, say, that beautiful Iraqi girl in a blue sweater (iirc), being carried perhaps by her father ... with shards of bone and flesh where her foot used to be. Or any picture of one of our dead soldiers. I'd ask, let's stop this killing, too. Then I'd watch them recoil in moral aversion and confusion. The thought of treating every stranger as if he or she was the Prince of Peace returning, well, somehow that idea didn't get mentioned in their Sunday School.

[patrice]

27. THAT'S what we need to do when we see these folks, stand quietly by with

pictures of Iraqi kids with their guts crushed into the dirt.

[defendandprotect]

119. Excellent idea . . .

and let's remember two things --- it's a majority of males in our Congress/WH who

are sending our youth to be killed in Iraq -- and killing Iraqis with our bombs.

and that no one gets onto this planet except thru the body of a female ---

Nature has confidence in females and has given almost everything to do with creating

life to them.

[patrice]

197. And Women should, therefore, be the ones to decide about motherhood.

We are the barometers of the Social Family. If general conditions are bad, our decisions about motherhood, "good" or "bad", ABSOLUTELY MUST be trusted.

I will ALWAYS and FOREVER say, for MYSELF, if I'm healthy, nine months isn't a big deal, if I were to become pregnant and didn't honestly think I could do and be for the child what the child needs, I would seriously consider and plan and try to have the child and give it (NO STRINGS ATTACHED) to someone who would LOVE and care for it, so that there would be more love in the World. I would hope for the same from my daughter were she to ask me and that includes pregnancy from rape.

But a seriously flawed fetus is an entirely different matter, something that justifies the possibility of late term abortions, if that's the mother's choice.

The concrete health of a mother is also an entirely different matter.

And whether I agree with what other women decide on this issue or not, I yeild the point: all things considered, "right" or "wrong", it IS BEST that each mother decide these matters for herself. Whatever the spiritual/moral consequences and responsibilities of that decision are, good or bad, LET THEM BE ON HER OWN SOUL , not obfuscated, not diluted, not diversified, not confused by interference from churches, states, political pressure groups, and NO men ( not even the father ) . This is how we will eventually get the best Mothers possible for any given set of conditions.

[mmonk]

30. Their hypocrisy is notable.

The fact they are against health concerns amendments concerning "late term" abortion shows they consider no other circumstances as well as the hypocrisy of voting in war promoters and people who torture or allow torture.

[defendandprotect]

118. I remember that picture . . . one other I can't forget is a boy -- maybe 12 years of age ---

with both his arms gone and both his legs gone ---

and he is awake and aware of all this ---


One of the things we have to remember is that no one on this planet gets here except thru

the body of a woman --- NATURE has given just about everything to do with procreation to

women --- the presence in the female body for 10 months --- breastfeeding ---

NATURE has confidence in women ---

[HERVEPA]

200. The women entering the clinic have enough to deal with without

your getting your anger out by carrying these signs and their having to see more disturbing pictures.

[davekriss]

203. It is not a matter of getting my "anger out", as I am not angry

It is a matter of revealing hypocrisy, neutering their assault on the sovereign right of women to control their bodies by turning back the moral arguments of the anti-choice crowd onto their own dimly reasoned positions.

I think most women assaulted by the anti-choice crowd at an abortion clinic would welcome a forceful counter-protest defending their rights, but that's just my opinion.

[HERVEPA]

204. As an escort at Planned Parenthood for the last 15 years, I can tell

you rather definitively that you are not correct on this.
In general, the woman coming in (and whoever is accompanying her) just sees a mess of stuff going on. If there is more stuff, there is more uncomfortability, and little differentiation as to who's "for" me and who's "against" me.

[davekriss]

205. I defer to you

And I applaud your efforts as an escort.

[HERVEPA]

206. Thank You - Much Appreciated

[Mabus]

28. "make their hellacious situation even more painful."

Thank you and amen.

Several years ago I had to have an abortion. To make a long story short, I had miscarried about four months into my pregnancy but my body didn't completely expel the fetus. I was an emotional wreck. I had just gotten used to the idea that I was pregnant when I found out that the fetus was no longer viable. So, I was dealing with the fact that I was no longer carrying a viable fetus but i still had all the pregnancy symptoms. My doctor told me that I was doing a good job passing the fetus and that I should just wait it out. After several weeks of complete and utter misery I had another exam and the sonogram showed that there was nothing left but a few cells clinging to the walls of uterus. I felt like I was going crazy. My hormones told me that I was pregnant but I knew better. I was having a hard time coping with my situation and all I wanted was an abortion/D&C to remove what was left so I could move on with my life. Physically I was bleeding almost non-stop and was in a lot of pain. Mentally, I was a wreck. I finally couldn't take it any longer and I made an appointment with a clinic for an abortion.

When I arrived at the clinic I was greeted by several dozen people from Operation Rescue standing outside screaming, yelling and holding signs. I did not want to be there having an abortion but I was. I really couldn't go on with the way things were going. I was an emotional wreck and my body was wracked with pain and the last frigging thing I needed was to be greeted by a bunch of people calling me a murderer and holding up horrid signs. But there I was. I got through the line and the day but I have always a hard time forgiving those people for making me walk a gauntlet to the clinic. I don't think I've ever really forgiven them. I was at a medical clinic for a much needed medical procedure at a clinic that specialized in gynecology but all they saw was a woman going into an abortion clinic.

I cannot tell you what it felt like to be inside a clinic having an abortion while I could hear a bunch of screaming loonies outside screaming and yelling about baby killers. What I can do is thank you for what you did. Getting an abortion wasn't something I wanted to do but it was a lot better for me emotionally and physically than continuing to carry the remnants of a non-viable fetus for a few more weeks. Those people outside didn't care about anything except their own agenda. I laid there in the recovery room, hearing chanting, screaming and yelling while I was at an emotional low. And their actions didn't just affect me. They affected all the other people who were there for a number of medical reasons. They screamed at my boyfriend who escorted me to the clinic and was going through the same emotional roller coaster that I was going through. They screamed at women who were there for their yearly pap exams. They screamed at women who came to the clinic to get mammograms. Those fucking people had no clue why any of us were at that clinic and they didn't care. They just assumed that we were all there to get an abortion and condemned all of us for it.

[noamnety]

32. there's one thing I'd suggest, Ida

and this comes from my own experience as an escort. (And if you've done escorting before, ignore all this - but maybe it will help other people who are considering it.)

Before you get scheduled for escorting, get to the point where you can walk past the anti-choice brigade without reacting.

When you are doing the escorting, the best thing for the patients is to stay upbeat, make small talk, downplay the protesters. Maybe jokingly trivialize them if the woman brings them up (Sorry about our visitors today ... they have the worst taste in art ... man, it's hot out here today - small talk about weather). The idea is to be as pleasant as possible for the women, and model being dismissive not upset, because you don't want them to be upset. The organizer here for the escorts is excellent, and she makes a few good points to new escorts. One is that we are there to diffuse tension, it's not about us once we step into that role. Another is that we aren't there as patronizing parent figures for the patients, either. If the patients want to yell at the protesters or tell them to fuck off, that's up to them, they don't need us telling them how to act. And if they want to take pamphlets from the protesters, that's fine, too. It's our job to be neutral buffers, not active participants, if that makes sense.

[MindPilot]

39. that is a really hard thing to overcome

When I was escorting, our little group actually got some training from the police. A couple of cops gave us some tips and tricks to mentally separate yourself from the situation so you don't lose it and go all medieval on their collective asses.

I can't count the number of times I've wanted to beat one of those protesters with their own sign, but you have to remember a) they have a right to express their views, and b) the really important thing is get the patients safely into the building.

[MountainLaurel]

33. Thank you for reminding me to volunteer at PP

There's one just down the street from me.

[liberalla]

34. I've taken 2 friends to get abortions, and I remember the

protesters outside. What a nuisance. I've not seen the dismembered baby picture you mention, but it does sound truly horrific.

You ask, "Was I right that a line had been crossed between 'visual assault' and 'free speech'?"

I like the 'visual assault' theory, and may I add Public Safety?

This might be an angle you could work with the police. Drivers seeing that photo might become so upset (such as yourself), that their attention may be taken away from the operation of the vehicle. It could cause an accident! Public Safety. That's the angle I'd work on, if I were you.

Personally, I don't think it should be on the side of the road where children can see it. It's not a 'suitable for all ages' Disney graphic, ya know.

[ensho]

40. you did good, thank you Idabriggs

nt

[notadmblnd]

41. if it's the location I think it is; they are out there quite often.

My sons orthodontist is in the next building (Elizabeth Lk road right?) and I went off on them one Saturday probably two years ago. They're fools. The time I went off, there was a group of about 4 women and one man. I also complained to my sons dentist that they were out there, but they made sure that stayed on the easement to the other professional building and not his, so there was nothing they could do.

[Brigid]

42. Wow.

For anyone who thinks that abortion is a black-and-white issue, just take a look at this, especially as relates to the heartbreaking story of "J." A definite K & R. :kick:

[wicket]

45. And another

:kick:

[hedgehog]

43. So, which part of the sign was bullshit?

Was the sign an inaccurate representation of the results of a 21 week abortion?

Did you become angry because we prefer these procedures to be sanitized with no one ever seeing the results?

I've seen other posts on abortion in which people have claimed that the fetus is just a mass of tissue, so what's the problem here?

[Raster]

48. The sign *may* have been an *accurate* representation of a dismembered

21-week old fetus, but that in no way would represent that if a MEDICAL PROCEDURE is done to terminate pregnancy is is probably done within the first trimester, when for all practical purposes, the fetus is just a mass of tissue. The sign was inflammatory. And I'll go ahead and assume you are anti-choice. I just want to know, what business and problem is it of yours if a woman chooses to terminate a pregnancy? What gives you the right to interfere in this woman's reproductive health?
Why are you anti-choice?

[hedgehog]

52. Hey - I'm not anti-choice. I see no way to legislate against abortion

that is as effective against the rich as it is against the poor. Legislation doesn't stop abortion, it just makes it dangerous and/or expensive.


The sign clearly stated 21 weeks according to the OP. Maybe the protesters are just against late term abortions. Who knows? I just find it note worthy that a woman's right to choose apparently includes no one ever seeing the result of the choice. Choose what you will, but be honest about it.


BTW - here is a 10 week fetus:

http://www.i-am-pregnant.com/pregnancy/calendar/week/10



Not a baby, but more than a mass of tissue.

[Raster]

55. You are correct. Legislative interferrence does not stop abortions...

it only makes them dangerous and/or expensive. No one is pro-abortion. Though many are anti-choice.

Your "noteworthy" comment about choice puzzles me. Many other medical procedures are performed on a constant basis. Why no sensationalized displays of those also? "...no one ever seeing the result of the choice." Did you choose to have a medical procedure done lately? Why shouldn't the photographic results of your procedure be posted streetside for all to see?

[hedgehog]

56. No one really cares if I have an appendectomy. Pretending that

an abortion is in the same class as any other medical procedure is simply denial. I don't know when human life begins, but I know that abortion is a serious choice.

[Raster]

59. Of course abortion is a serious choice. A personal, private, medical, serious choice.

Denial. Oh no, not the "D". word. Suggesting someone is in denial usually means they don't agree with you, and you feel your *OPINION* is somehow superior. I hope that's not the case. Peace.

[hedgehog]

61. To me, some of the pro-choice and pro-life people are two sides

of the same coin. The extreme pro-choicers call the fetus a clump of tissues unless the baby actually draws breath while the extreme pro-lifers would have you believe that women have abortions in between going to the gym and the grocery store. I wonder if the friend described in the OP thought that what she was aborting was "just a clump of tissue"? Clearly, it wasn't a casual decision for her. One group claims there's no importance to the decision and the other group claims that the decision is treated casually. In all the years since Roe v Wade, has either side actually helped women in bad situations?

[Raster]

63. "pro-life"? I'm sorry, I don't recognize that term. I understand "choice" and "anti-choice."

Abortion is never a "casual" choice. Never. And it doesn't matter if "...either side actually helped women in bad situations..." since Roe v Wade. What matters is that since Roe v. Wade women have been able to make personal, private, medical AND LEGAL choices about their bodies and their reproductive health free from interference from church or state. The alternative IS the "bad situation."

[noamnety]

64. I'm confused about your question.

Are you asking if planned parenthood has ever helped women in bad situations?

Isn't that a large part of their mission? 1) prevent bad situations, 2) provide low cost pre-natal care for pregnant women 3) help women who are in bad situations.

[hedgehog]

65. I can see where a woman might consider abortion a solution,

but any situation where abortion is a solution can only be described as bad, IMO. All abortion does is limit the consequences. Maybe that's enough, but wouldn't it be better if women had more choices?

[noamnety]

67. Please reread my post.

Planned parenthood provides birth control to prevent unwanted pregnancies. Planned parenthood provides prenatal services for pregnant women. Planned parenthood provides abortions for women who have an unwanted pregnancy.

Seems like a wide range of choices to me, all of which serve the needs of women. So, again, I'm confused by your question asking if PP has ever done anything to serve women's needs.

[hedgehog]

68. Planned Parenthood can't help the woman faced with the news that

her desperately wanted fetus is seriously ill. Planned Parenthood doesn't help the woman who can't see how she can afford to raise a child. What if the woman wants to keep the pregnancy, however unplanned, but sees abortion as the only option? Some choice.

[noamnety]

72. The fact that you don't personally like women having choices

is not the same as them not offering choices. :)

taking away choices does not provide more choices. Up is not down.

If you want to provide additional choices, go for it. In the meantime, don't argue for restricting the ones that are there. PP is a medical clinic that provides a wide range of low cost health care options for women. They are not an employment agency or a food bank. Sheesh.

It would be great if we had more of a socialized system to ensure everyone's basic needs are taken care of, and I am all for that.

That is not a justification for being anti-choice.

[hedgehog]

87. I didn't say I was against women having choices. I was merely stating that when the choice is:

1. Have this baby and have a miserable life

or

2. Have an abortion

when what you might really want is to have a healthy baby and a good life,


then Options 1 and 2 don't present much of a choice.


It's time to get off our soap boxes and demand better pre-natal care, more research into preventing and treating birth defects and genetic diseases, better wages, an option for mothers to stay at home if that's their choice and an option for mothers to have decent day care if that's their choice!

[noamnety]

112. The protesters seem to forget

they are protesting one of the organizations that has been providing much of that pre-natal care for low-income women. Terrorizing pregnant women into skipping prenatal care because they don't want to run the gauntlet is ignorant.

You asked (I think it was you) whether the pro-choice women's rights folks were doing anything to address those other issues, and my initial response was that PP is a medical provider. And shortly after, as if on cue, NOW emailed with a good reminder that yes, in fact, they are fighting for economic justice as well.

All the stuff in your last sentence, I'm not sure why it's included here unless you thought there was some debate about that. Yes, we all agree that if mothers want to give birth and be able to stay home (or have their partner be able to stay home) to raise the child or have affordable day care, and a decent living wage, yes, I think we all agree with that as part of the pro-choice platform as well. Prochoice means that all choices should be available.

[noamnety]

76. If you are looking for a way to help women's rights groups

NOW just put out an email asking us to contact our reps about the paycheck fairness act.

"http://www.capwiz.com/now/issues/alert/?alertid=11690856"

NOW is an example of what I think you were looking for - a group of prochoice activists working their asses of for economic justice for women as well as fighting violence against women and racism. That might be a good group for you to volunteer with, if you are looking to fight for women's rights.

[Raster]

69. But of course! Women should have more choices, This is a no-brainer.

But look at what is happening today. There are factions that are working overtime to make ANY TYPE of contraception classed as abortion. As we sit here and agree that women should have more choices, the same types of people waving those inflammatory roadside placards are working to limit safe, private, legal choices other than abortion.

I have known several women that made the choice to terminate their pregnancies. Their reasons were varied. The choices they made were difficult, thoughtful and private. None were casual and none were easy. And in their opinions also, abortion may have been a bad choice, but fortunately, it was a choice. A personal, legal and medical choice.

And yes, IN YOUR OPINION "...any situation where abortion is a solution can only be described as bad." I trust you won't having any abortions any time soon. That is YOUR CHOICE. And thank God/Goddess/Deity you are able to make that choice.

[uppityperson]

181. So is an appendectomy a serious choice.

Any operation is a serious choice.

[jesus_of_suburbia]

60. That's exactly what I want to know too... what part was bullshit?

I'm pro-choice, but I have no problem with pro-lifers letting us see what happens to the fetus.

Personally I don't give a sh*t. But if you are going to have an abortion, don't be upset if someone tells you what you are doing.

[Freddie Stubbs]

62. It was 'bullshit' because the OP did not like how effective it was

I'm all for keeping abortion legal, but that doesn't mean that I think that its a moral thing to do.

[noamnety]

66. Spoken as a man

who would like to be greeted for a proctologist appointment by a large crowd of people screaming at you shoving posters of male genitals in your face as you try to enter the clinic. :D

[hedgehog]

81. Hmmmm....... I wonder why that doesn't happen? Oh that's right,

it's because abortion is NOT just another medical procedure! Pro-choice, anti-choice, pro-life, don't care, whatever; just don't try to suggest that there is no moral component involved.

[Raster]

92. In YOUR mind and YOUR belief system there is a moral component involved.

I'm sorry, others are not bound to your moral interpretations and opinions. And in my opinion, abortion IS JUST ANOTHER MEDICAL PROCEDURE.

[hedgehog]

96. Tell that to the friend mentioned in the original post. She chose to have an abortion,

abortion was available to her, but I guarantee you that to her it wasn't just another medical procedure. Maybe she was glad she didn't have to carry to term, but I suspect that what she really wanted to hear was "Your baby has a problem, but here's how we're going to cure it".

[Raster]

100. I won't be telling that friend anything. And neither will you. Although it seems you will

be trying to put words in her mouth.

On edit: And just to clarify: our conversation is at an end. Have a nice day. And enjoy your freedom to not have an abortion.

[uppityperson]

183. oh good lord and I thought others were judgmental. You take the cake.

Now she really wanted to have an abortion and was hoping that her baby would have a serious health issue so she could abort it. You are incredible. You are simply, not worth getting banned over.

[uppityperson]

184. you suspect she really wanted to hear her baby was going to die so she could abort it?!?!

That is one of the most incredibly insensitive nasty vile things I have seen posted towards an individual that is not a political figure. You should be ashamed of yourself. Shame on you.

[noamnety]

116. Vasectomy is a moral decision.

Again, men going to urologists would prefer (I'm going way out on a limb here) not to be shrieked at, have closeups of genital posters shoved in their faces, or otherwise accosted by YOUR beliefs as they made a decision based on THEIR beliefs about THEIR OWN body.

Lots of surgery has moral implications, that's not a valid argument. Giving birth has a moral component too but we don't shove posters of closeups of bloody gory c-sections in the women's faces as they enter the hospital to give birth.

I can think of a ton of surgeries that have a moral component ... but at the end of the day, it's not my place or anyone else's to try to traumatize patients prior to surgery.

[raccoon]

201. Thank you! nt

[uppityperson]

182. You do know there is a difference between an early and a mid-term abortion, right?

Just wanting to check and make sure of that.

[dddem]

195. there is a difference between making yourself aware of all the facts

in a given situation, and in publicly displaying photographs which are meant to be disturbing. I am aware of a lot of things, and I have seen some graphic, disturbing images of situations while trying to educate myself, but that doesn't mean I want to have to expose my kids to these images in a public place. I used to be upset by the enquirere headlines at the supermarket aftr my kids learned to read, for crying out loud. I'm all for people having choices to look at, read and do whatever they (as consenting adults) want, but NOT FOR EVERYONE (INCLUDING CHILDREN)TO BE EXPOSED TO!
I don't blame the OP for being upset at the public displays of offensive graphic images.

[colinmom71]

84. Actually, I've read reports that many of those signs...

The pictures on those signs are often pictures that have been taken without permission from the parents at the medical facility where the abortion occurred (usually for fetal health reasons) or are photos from medical texts that are used without respect to copyright. Of course they only use photos that don't show the defects the fetus was affected by. And a good number of those photos have been "touched up" to make them more lurid and horrifying. But then these are also the folks who like to believe that propaganda film "The Silent Scream" is factual and accurate...

[Raster]

95. I have read some of the same reports also. Most of those photos and films are "enhanced"

to highlight blood and gore and are certainly chosen to inflame. What they are not chosen for is to lead to a rational and logical discussion about choice and personal and bodily freedoms, because that is EXACTLY what that faction doesn't want: choice. They are not pro-life. They are anti-choice. They wish to force their moral standards upon others because they believe that somehow their beliefs are more moral and superior.

[defendandprotect]

120. How would anyone have any way of knowing what it is . . .

that's the point ...

Whose photo was it --- ?

What permission to use it do they have --- ?

What were the exact circumstances --- ?

Women see everything in the world --- they don't turn from it ---

As you can see from the woman who is reciting her experience of protesting the sign ---

[IdaBriggs]

148. The sign was bullshit on several levels.

1) It was not relevant to an early term abortion (also known as a D&C) which is most likely the only type of abortion provided at a clinic, because late term abortions, in every case I have *ever* heard of, involve medical problems involving hospitals.

2) The procedure, as explained to my friend "J" did *NOT* involve cutting up a living fetus/baby whatever you want to call it, but instead involved terminating the pregnancy with a solution of some kind, and then removing it in the safest way possible, with the goal being to preserve her ability to become pregnant again later.

3) The 'picture' was not an accurate representation of a 21 week old fetus, as witnessed by me seeing babies in the NICU who were only a few weeks older -- it looked like my 32 weekers, but honestly, that could have just been me projecting my horror at a cut-up infant being proudly paraded before my eyes.

and lastly,

4) It was a completely out-of-context photo designed to shock the sensibilities of ignorant people who don't know better. Picture the remains of an amputated foot, decaying, oozing, whatever, and then try to make up a story about it. Was it removed to save someone's life? Was there a horrible accident? Was the person who removed it a heroic doctor in a war zone acting to save a life while under enemy fire, or a perverted sadistic serial killer gleefully torturing an innocent person?

That photo wasn't supposed to do anything except sicken and enrage. It worked. I was sickened and enraged by people who use other people's pain to promote their own agenda.

[libodem]

159. I saw a picture once in a forensics text

It was of a dead little girl with a hair brush stuck in her skull. Should I hold that picture up at child protection?

[Boudica the Lyoness]

174. Small children who have been raised hearing stories

about Peter Rabbit and such would be upset at such a sight. Certain sex acts are legal, so are bathroom functions, but you just don't going shoving pictures of it in little kids faces, do you now?
Fuck, these evil fuckers make me mad!!

[MiniMe]

194. It shouldn't be shown in a public forum like that because there is no control

over who sees the sign. Do you really think that it is appropriate for 4 or 5 year old kids to see that? Its the same reason that they don't have movie posters of the "good" parts for x-rated movies. To me, its not that its BS, its what should be shown in a place where little kids can see it. Or for that matter, where somebody who just had a miscarriage can see it. While I don't like it, I think it would be their right to hand somebody a piece of paper with the picture on it, that at least controls who they are targeting. Just MHO.

[lonestarnot]

53. I saw little things in a preservative at the Body Works by the German dude whose name I do not

recall. I can't remember how big the 21 weeker was, but it made me rethink things a bit.

[timtom]

54. I am outraged at the fact that the policeman

said they have a right to protest. While they do, we all know that if it were a leftist or progressive group protesting, how quickly that right would disappear!

[dembotoz]

57. I am very proud of you. we have a duzy for being funny but nothing for doing the right thing

if we did i would nominate you.
It took guts
Something that is always in short supply

[EFerrari]

113. Maybe we can name standing up to evil @ssholes "Doing an IdaBriggs" --

As in "I'm going to IdaBriggs those terrorist sympathizers!".

[dembotoz]

131. works for me

[MadrasT]

70. Applause

Ida, I applaud you for speaking out about an issue that matters to you. :applause:

[BreweryYardRat]

71. We have similar fundies here. I've been thinking about showing up with a boom box...

...and blaring some of George Carlin's social commentary on abortion and the "sanctity of life" loudly enough to drown them out.

Particularly from the "Back in Town" album.

[yardwork]

73. I guess these people don't care about all the little babies blown to bits in Iraq.

:hug:

[hedgehog]

83. So, today class we learn that if you're anti-abortion, you must be

for blowing up Iraqi children.

Did it ever occur to you that someone might be simultaneously pro-choice and anti-abortion, let alone against war?

[yardwork]

98. Sure. But I doubt it's occurred to the people holding those signs.

I would bet anything that after spending a day intimidating and upsetting people going about their business, these neocons go home and support Republicans. They don't give a damn about the babies being killed in Iraq. All they care about is getting Republicans elected.

[blue52power]

134. no

You must conform \

You must conform - just kidding.

I struggle with it too. If we don't struggle with it, I think we are devaluing life, we lose something important.

[emilyg]

74. Bravo.

[billyoc]

77. I consider every one of them a terrorist sympathizer at best.

[nikto]

154. How about just, "Terrorists"?

[billyoc]

158. Some of them are just camp followers.

[GoddessOfGuinness]

79. For your sake, I'm sorry you lost your temper...

That's an unsettling feeling that I've had experience with. I understand how upsetting and disturbing it must have been for you.

For the protesters' sake, I'm glad you lost your temper. :hug::hug::hug:

[sfnative]

82. Good for you!

Good for you for speaking up for your community. We protested when hundreds of pro-lifers were bussed into San Francisco to march around the city. It sent a wrong message that these people represented our city when they were actually bussed from communities hundred miles away from San Francisco. We tagged along the march with our pro-choice signs and yelling chants. I saw the dissected babies and yelled, "Good job photoshopping that. How would you know what an aborted fetus looks like if you never had an abortion? Don't you know abortions look like blood clots?" Of course, what's funny it's usually a male pro-lifer holding these signs. Keep up the fight. We need to send a message to these people we don't tolerate their actions.

[Lars39]

85. Welcome to DU, sfnative !

:toast:

[jeff30997]

93. "pro-lifers "

Mmh,I don't like that term.I prefer Anti-Choice.

Welcome to DU BTW! :toast:

[Raster]

97. And it is high-time that those of us that believe in a woman's right to choose,

label the anti-choice crowd for what they are: ANTI-CHOICE! The term "pro-life" is an oxymoron and an overworked right-wing meme.

[sfnative]

102. Thanks for the welcome and correction

Thanks, lars, jeff and raster. I always associated the term "pro-life" with crazies anyway, but I'll get with the program. :hi:
U.S. out of my uterus!

[pansypoo53219]

86. more courage than i have. and they deserve it.

fuckinbg fetus lovers. how come they ain't busy being FOSTER PARENTS?

life is NOT perfect, SHIT HAPPENS. and 'life' begins when a baby can live without it's incubator.

course i would come prepared with a paint gun to obliterate their sign. or a flame thrower.

[knitter4democracy]

90. Confronting evil is always a good thing.

And I think that what they did was evil. I've had a miscarriage, and I've got several friends who are still healing from their miscarriages and stillbirths. As far as I'm concerned, they did cross into obscenity and needed to be confronted with their evil.

[jeff30997]

94. Don't be so hard on yourself IdaBriggs.

Here's a Sign for you:

:yourock:

[RedLetterRev]

99. Good for you, Ida!

We've tried being nice, ignoring, and going around the loudmouthed bullying nutwing for a couple of decades now. All it has gotten us is marginalized and a country that's falling in around our ears. I've had about enough of it, as have most other DU'ers. It's long past time to do the distasteful but often necessary thing of poking them in the nose, even if only verbally. Sometimes that's the only thing that will send a playground bully home, squalling to mama.

Ain't skeert.

Ida, I heartily commend your spirit and your bravery to be an escort. I no longer have the patience and the older I get, the less control over my tongue. My vocabulary is huge and wicked, and there's little use in casting pearls before what truly amounts to swine in the streets. May the Universe bless and protect you and your mission, dear. :hug:

As for the male anti-choice loudmouths, I have often reminded them that they have absolutely no right to an opinion on the matter until the instant they sprout a uterus. Until that instant miraculous transubstantiation occurs, then it's hands, laws, and misinterpretations of Babble off the female body.

[noamnety]

108. I don't completely agree with that last paragraph.

"As for the male anti-choice loudmouths, I have often reminded them that they have absolutely no right to an opinion on the matter until the instant they sprout a uterus. Until that instant miraculous transubstantiation occurs, then it's hands, laws, and misinterpretations of Babble off the female body."

If they sprout a uterus, it's still hands off laws that affect others. As far as I'm concerned, if they grow a uterus that gives them the right to an opinion regarding that ONE uterus, not anyone else's.

I appreciate the sentiments in the rest of your post, I just think it's an important distinction that the issue isn't whether or not decision makers got specific body parts, though male supremacy is definitely a driving force behind the anti-choice movement; the issue is individuals' sovereignty over their own bodies.

[RedLetterRev]

122. Y'know? I can go with that

... a mile in someone else's shoes and all. I just don't think that someone has the right to make a blanket decision denying something that may be absolutely necessary; especially regarding a decision that is so very, very personal. Another woman could possibly have the perspective. I, as a man, just never could. It wouldn't be fair for me or any other man (IMHO, that is) to say to every woman in the world, "you can't terminate a preganancy, just because I say so". That's really about as much reason as they anti-choice people have when all the beeyess arguments are stripped away.

I still do think that male supremacy issues do dominate and drive that anti-choice clamor. I still do think that women have a lot more to say on the issue.

And more to the point, I think we're totally in agreement, even if my way of stating it was rather clumsy.

That's about the same amount of mentation as they RW'ers put into the emotional "gay marriage" screeds they come up with. I've had this "it ain't raht" and "Gawd's agin it" and all the same arguments thrown in my face, and the question isn't anywhere near as emotional or personal. I just can't imagine the pain, emotional hurt or trauma involved in having to terminate a pregnancy for any reason -- then having to put up with crap from people who don't even know the first thing about your life. If they'd spent the first instant in thought or compassion in what the woman in question might be going through, they wouldn't be there spewing their mouths.

Then again, it's different when they want one. There was a lively thread on KA about that earlier this year I'm having trouble tracking down. Long and short, there was a series of articles on right-wingers who had no trouble justifying abortion for themselves, but it was "wrong" for other women.

I can't stand a liar and I can't stand a hypocrite. I'll keep trying to find those threads and will accept help in that endeavor.

On Edit: I found the link I was looking for:
The Only Moral Abortion is My Abortion

[spanone]

101. they don't care. they should be handing out condoms. some people prefer ignorance

i would have gone bat-shit crazy myself....you did great.

[Ilsa]

104. Thanks I.B. I used to be a part of

counter-protesting when I lived in Dallas. If abortions are done here, it is kept very quiet.

Wish i could have been there to help. I'm in another city busy with two kids now.

I can't believe we're still having to fight this battle.

[swimmernsecretsea]

105. All I can think of to do is to say thank you.

And wish I could hold you for a second. I understand what you did, and I think you are brave and did a good thing.

[baby_mouse]

107. Why aren't there MORE people like you?

Why does everyone have this bizarre idea that you have to be polite to revoltingly offensive people like abortion clinic protestors and fundamentalist christians?

[EFerrari]

110. You did GREAT, IdaBriggs. Thank you!

:yourock:

[LaPera]

115. They are always self-righteous, republicans smug assholes who refuse to mind their own business!

[Mother Of Four]

117. Kudos to you -

There is protesting and then there is assault on the senses, in this case vision. I can't imagine what it would do to someone who had to terminate due to medical concerns. It would tear their heart out.

They have every right to protest, but not to injure others and that's what that picture was doing.

[defendandprotect]

123. Ida --- I think you did a good thing --- spontaneous as it was . . .

courageous of you --- !!!

[KamaAina]

124. We used to call that "fetal pornography"

back in the early '90s. Sounds like the exact same picture, actually. Nice to know the anti's are moving ahead with the times... :sarcasm:

[bliss_eternal]

208. ....mind if I use that one...?

Sounds like the appropriate name for it.

[KamaAina]

211. It wasn't my original.

Go for it!!

[bliss_eternal]

212. Very cool...

...thank you! :thumbsup:

[marshall]

125. Too bad you didn't have a taser handy!

That would really have given them something to remember.

[Wednesdays]

126. Please help stop surgery! (Graphic image warning!)

Please--we must stop these vile practices! Just look at how revolting they are!

Heart surgery
http://www.drmahadik.com/pda_operation.html

Eye surgery
http://www.lasikcorrect.com/images/view/89/dn001eyesurgeryjpg.html

Brain surgery
http://www.sd-neurosurgeon.com/practice/index.html

Kidney transplants
http://ferretfancier.blogspot.com/2008/01/state-nationalises-our-organs.html

:eyes:

[liam_laddie]

128. Here's a point I use against the "pro-life" Gestapo...

It usually slows 'em down, at least those of a strongly Christian slant.

A-"Jesus is assumed to have believed the tenets of the Jewish religion of his time, right?"
B-"Right..."
A-"Do you realize that the Jews of that era believed a human was brought into this world only upon drawing its first breath?"
B-"Really?"
A-"Yes. So does that mean Jesus may not have had an opinion one way or another about abortion?"
B-"Well..."
A-"So what gives you the right to tell someone she can't have the procedure. Where does your right come from, to impose your opinion on anyone who doesn't agree with your personal moral views? I don't think Jesus would agree with your view."

It puts them on defense unless they're incapable of critical thinking, which come to think of it, most can't.

Disclaimer: I'm a male who personally thinks governments at any level have no right to interfere with personal moral decisions, other than to establish safe medical practices. My own beliefs are trumped by governments' need to stay the hell out of these sorts of issues. My main concern is that the father has a serious responsibility to participate in the entire process. Just sayin'

[defendandprotect]

147. Just sayin' . . .

Re your Disclaimer . . .

Abortion isn't always considered a "moral" decision by those making it ---
that's a presumption.

Many "fathers" do get to participate . . . . but never "in the entire process."
They cannot, after all, physically experience the pregnancy -
They cannot, either, have an abortion.
Many do participate by forcing women to have abortions - quite common.
Or simply generally make it known that another pregnancy isn't desirable.

That is not of course all "fathers," but some of them ---

Just sayin' . . .

[Raster]

168. They are NOT "pro-life," they are ANTI-CHOICE!

By continuing to use the "pro-life" meme, we allow them the upper "meme hand."

Pro-life = Anti-choice!

[Catherine Vincent]

129. I remember the first time I saw that picture from an anti-abortion protestor.

It was horrific and I felt they had no right to display that picture out in public like that.

[iamthebandfanman]

132. i woulda said

maybe if youd let people wear condoms and use birth control...

[geckosfeet]

133. Sorry to hear about the rough patch - many positive thoughts coming your way!

[bertman]

135. Too often we let the Reichwingers run over us. Thank you for standing up to them.

[RedShoes]

137. Brava Diva!!!

I never thought of the graphically obscene angle before, but I think it's brilliant!

[Scout]

141. most of those posters are not photos of legal abortions and/or

are not the stated gestational age.

although some of the idiots have tried, you can't just get the tissue from abortions out of the dumpster from behind the clinic, even if there was much that was recognizable yet anyway.

[alarimer]

145. These people encouage and abet the murder of doctors.

And they also record the license plates of people going into clinics (with no regard for the reason the person may be there). So they actually deserve much worse than what you gave. In fact I would say that is the LEAST they deserve. And it's high time they got a taste of their own medicine. We have let these people walk all over us by being nice. It's time to stop being nice to them.

[Swagman]

146. good on you !..release all that tension in a positive way !

[CanonRay]

150. You did just fine, way to go.

:yourock:

[MadMaddie]

151. IdaBriggs these so called Christians need to be confronted...

For the last 25 years these Neo-Con racist, homophobic hate mongering people have been allowed to put their bullshit in our faces and get away with it. We as liberals, we as progressive women, we as minorities have been quiet for too long.

We don't see these so called Christians helping poor women get help to avoid pregnancies and to live healthy lives. They don't go to the homeless shelters to help the poor they avoid them.

No confronting them was the right thing to do...we need to confront them in every arena and let them know they will not be allowed to dictate and rule our lives anymore.

K & R my friend!!

[bliss_eternal]

161. Yeah!

What she said. ;)

:hi::hug:

[nikto]

153. THANK YOU for speaking out

WE should be silent no longer, and speak out at every opportunity,
both to strangers, and even to friends/acquaintances we may alienate.

From now on...
The SIN is in the SILENCE.

[sudopod]

156. Righteous anger is righteous. nt

[defendandprotect]

165. If you've noticed, you're thread here today also succeeded in

bringing quite a few fanatical "pro-lifers" here out --

all in the line of asking innocent questions, of course --

[Raster]

169. Pro-life = ANTI-CHOICE!

[colinmom71]

175. Ehhh, not necessarily...

I'm actually pro-choice because safe, legal abortion saves women's lives. Ergo, I'm pro-life because I understand that pregnancy is not always in every woman's better interests.

And besides, legal safe abortion could also one day save MY life should our birth control method (surgical sterilization) fail. Another pregnancy could be *extremely* risky for my health and/or life and having access to a medically safe abortion would be my own expression of being pro-life... Pro-MY-life and pro-preserving and protecting the way of life my son now has... I will not leave him orphaned and defenseless in a world that does not fully care for people with disabilities like him.

In my case, and perhaps in many other women's cases, access to abortion IS pro-responsibility, pro-choice, and pro-life.... And it is each woman's decision to determine that as her own truth...

[Turner Ashby]

177. A simple way to make sure the rich and poor are treated

alike if abortions are outlawed (as someone said was unlikely above) is to make DNC's be required to be performed in a hospital and signed off as NECESSARY by THREE doctors. If a doctor's license is on the line criminally, then he will not sign off on a procedure that has been historically used by the wealthy to get abortions while poor women had back alley abortions. That way politicians wives, daughtes and friends would not be able to escape the hangman's noose. That way I would be all for all women sinking in the same boat.

I say this tongue in cheek, having barely survived my own pregnancy. I chose not to end my pregnancy, but survived through the grace of god, with a good doctor standing by.

[colinmom71]

188. OK, you had me going for a bit there!

Sincerely though, I'm glad you made it through your pregnancy and had the grace of a good doctor to guide you through the fears and hopes you must have endured...

And ya know, if someone offered your proffered line of reasoning mentioned above, I'd be arguing it out with them now too! ;) Puh-lease! Like a wealthy person can't hire *three* different doctors to testify to what that person wants them to say! :shrug: Ooh! Isn't that kinda what W did for an inconvenient problem back in 1970? (OK, we need a smilie with furiously and innocently flittering eyelashes here!)

Ya know, I could easily play the "I got mine, FU!" card, since our health insurance through DH's employer has an excellent comprehensive women's health care package (yes, it even pays for elective first trimester abortions, not to mention infertility treatments and their medications!). But I'm not willing to see something as important and vital as our fellow citizens' health needs be subject to the whims of the profit motive and corporate greed... For men and women both.

[Raster]

189. I hear what you are saying. What I am saying is I am damned tired of the anti-choice harpies

co-opting the "pro-life" moniker. They are NOT pro-life. They are anti-choice.

[Connonym]

176. and you know, the really great thing you did, what really makes you different from their lot

You were angry but you didn't go and kill one of them the way they do to clinic workers. I'll never understand how they can justify that. I agree with you that the picture sounds obscene and terrifying to small children. It would be rated R in a theater and having it out in public is a vile thing to do to the people who have to see it. And why is their right to free speech more important than the right of woman having an abortion and being allowed to enter the building unmolested by these ghouls? Sick assholes. I'm upset just hearing about your experience. I'm sorry you had to see that but you handled it beautifully.

[bliss_eternal]

209. great point...

...about killing clinic workers.

[ccharles000]

187. You did good.

[lilyannerose]

192. Good For you!

I never quite understood how Christians think they have the higher moral ground on the abortion issue. If you read the stories in the Old Testament you can't help but notice that in order to free the Israelites from Egypt an "angel of death" was sent to kill the first born" of the Egytians, the story never states there was mercy shown to babies or children. How about in the tale of Lot when Soddom and G were destoryed it never states that pregnant women, babies or children were spared. I can never wrap my head around all of the death and slaughtering of babies and children in the Old Testament by the Christian God and today's reformed God who opposes the slaughter. Is God working out his bad karma and using today's Christians to do it?

[a la izquierda]

193. My aunt and uncle used to protest at clinics.

The weirdest thing was that one day, not long after I had graduated college and had no insurance, I was going into a Planned Parenthood for an annual exam and birth control refill. I saw them there. They were shocked. I patiently sat there explaining that their actions scared off women and girls who were there to take care of their health and to try and not become pregnant; or to make sure that their health was okay if they were pregnant. It's sort of funny, because I don't think they'd ever thought about that; their daughter, who is the same age as me, had just recently had a baby out of wedlock. I pointed out that instead of protesting, they should have been paying attention to what was going on in their own family. THat shut them up right quick.

But I guess it must have been last year or so, we had one of those "Abortion is Genocide" protests on the campus I attend. It was horrifying. It went on for a few days. I got accosted daily, as did a few of my girlfriends. Finally, one day I was on my bike and a protester stepped in front of me. I slowed down and gave the woman about 5 seconds to give her spiel. At the time, I had a shaved head. She looked at me and said "Well, I guess because of YOUR orientation, you don't have to worry about abortion." She was clearly menacing me and kept stepping in front of me. I flashed my wedding and engagement rings and said loudly, "I will give you about a second to get your judgmental and WRONG literature out of my fucking way before I run it over. You should probably move to." I was furious! A few people around me clapped and she got the message.
Friggin' idiots.

[OwnedByFerrets]

196. K & R for your passion.

[HERVEPA]

198. As a patient escort and an escort coordinator for the last 15 years

at Planned Parenthood, I can tell you that what you did is not useful.
It makes things worse for the people who run the clinic, worse for the patients coming into the clinic, and, if there were any patient escorts there, worse for them.
Not to mention, it feeds the juices of the anti's, who are more likely to come back after this type of interaction.
As an escort and coordinator, we do not engage at all with the anti's, as this helps no one, especially not those coming into the clinic.
This doesn't mean I don't get enraged by the signs, especially those connecting abortion with the holocaust and those stating the (non-existent) link between abortion and breast cancer.

[Boudica the Lyoness]

207. I disagree

if more of us told these evil people what we thought of them I believe it would shut them down. I saw the bastards at an Al Gore rally some years ago and liberals were just walking past trying to ignore them. Look what Hitler did when he was ignored!
I will continue to voice my opinion to these motherfuckers every chance I get. Why should they be the only 'loud in your face' ones?

[HERVEPA]

210. Have you escorted at a clinic, or talked to a patient, or employees

of the clinic. It may make you feel better to let off steam, but it won't stop the anti's, you'll only make it difficult for the people trying to help the women.

[malaise]

202. Kick n/t