Knoxville murders. You know it's a hate crime.

[NYC_SKP]

When they go after a Unitarian Universalist church. A more tolerant group you'll not find, IMO. I was certain it was a hate crime the moment I heard of the shootings yesterday.

New evidence was just released:

"It appears that what brought him to this horrible event was his lack of being able to obtain a job, his frustration over that and his stated hatred of the liberal movement," Owen said at a news conference... ...The Unitarian-Universalist church promotes progressive social work, including advocacy of women and gay rights. The Knoxville congregation also has provided sanctuary for political refugees, fed the homeless and founded a chapter of the American Civil Liberties Union, according to its Web site.

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-shooting29-2008jul29,0,7295395.story

The shotgun-wielding suspect in Sunday’s mass shooting at the Tennessee Valley Unitarian Universalist Church was motivated by a hatred of “the liberal movement,” and he planned to shoot until police shot him, Knoxville Police Chief Sterling P. Owen IV said this morning.

Jim D. Adkisson, 58, of Powell wrote a four-page letter in which he stated his “hatred of the liberal movement,” Owen said. “Liberals in general, as well as gays.”

Adkisson said he also was frustrated about not being able to obtain a job, Owen said.

http://www.getreligion.org/?p=3755

My thoughts are with the families and community, and with all victims of these crimes.

[groovedaddy]

1. It's a deep, dark place to believe that such actions are a solution to ANYTHING! n.t

[NYC_SKP]

2. It's sickening.

To go after as tolerant a group as the UU church, it's utterly sickening.

:shrug:

[Island Blue]

3. Yes it is.

I wouldn't be at all surprised to hear that Rush Limball is this man's hero. I'm glad he was taken alive - too often these cowards are killed and never have to answer for their actions.

My heart goes out to the victims, their families and the entire church community.

[Subdivisions]

4. Does a "hate crime" = terrorism? n/t

[NYC_SKP]

7. No.

Both are complex and have legal definitions that may differ from common definitions.

From wikipedia:

The word "terrorism" is politically and emotionally charged,<1> and this greatly compounds the difficulty of providing a precise definition. A 2003 study by Jeffrey Record for the US Army quoted a source (Schmid and Jongman 1988) that counted 109 definitions of terrorism that covered a total of 22 different definitional elements.

From my perspective, terrorism differs by intention, it's intention is to induce terror among a larger population, it might not even include actual acts of violence.

A hate-crime, by contrast, may be spontaneous and directed toward a single individual or a group, but doesn't necessarily involve "terrorizing" others.

:thumbsup:

[damntexdem]

15. This one was planned a week ahead; and I suspect that one intent was to induce terror in 'liberals.'

The perpetrator intended to be killed by the police. Instead, UUs captured him alive for the police. Now, I hope he rots in jail with a life sentence -- and even somehow comes to consider the horror of what he did.

[NYC_SKP]

26. I'm beginning to agree.

I posted this before the contents of the letter were revealed.

The more we learn the more it seems to be terroristic.

:thumbsup:

[Richard Steele]

27. YES.

NM

[baldguy]

31. Adkinson comitted a hate crime.

Limbaugh, Hannity, O'Reilly and the others who pointed out his targets to him are the terrorists.

[theoldman]

5. I also suspected that it was a hate crime.

Look at it this way. There are 100 million Republican. If 50 million are adults and .001% are nuts, you end up with a lot of nuts. I would bet that it is closer to .01 percent.

[NYC_SKP]

6. And half that number get jobs in the media.

Only partly kidding, it's too serious to joke about but Rush and others really do foment hate.

These violent crazies find at least some justification in their evil deeds by the words of extreme hate talk show hosts.

:thumbsup:

[JackBeck]

8. Except if this crime was motivated by his anti-gay views.

Otherwise, yes, this is a hate crime under the way the current law is written.

[nam78_two]

11. Sad because this guy was a homophobe

It was probably a big part of his motivation. UUs are known for being accepting of the GLBT community.
The hate crime laws need to be updated big-time.

[Bluebear]

14. You said it, my good friend.

[scheming daemons]

9. I know it is not a popular viewpoint, but I hate the whole idea of the term "hate crime"

Certain ACTIONS can and should be criminalized. But calling something a "hate crime" is to criminalize thought.


If a person commits a crime, try and convict him for the crime committed. The reason for the crime should be immaterial, at least from a legal standpoint.

We should try to understand the motivations that people have to commit crimes in order to better prevent them... but if two people commit the same heinous act... and one of them did it for money and the other did it out of "hate", I don't think that should have any bearing on the punishment.


Thoughts should never have a judicial penalty ascribed to them, no matter how distasteful the thoughts are.


This smacks of "thought police" and 1984-ish bullshit. If this guy hates liberals, then that is an explanation for his crime - but it shouldn't have any bearing on his sentence.

His sentence should be in line with what ANYONE would get for killing 2 people and injured a half-dozen others.



It's a slippery-slope when we add extra penalties an act because of the thought-processes of the perpetrator.

[NYC_SKP]

10. I agree, for the reasons you state and....

the fact that the way legislation defining "hate crimes" discriminates one way or another against groups.

For example, if race is a qualifier but national heritage is not, etc. I don't see how it can be applied fairly and be specific to groups.

All crimes of violence are hateful.

[damntexdem]

18. Motive is always important -- defines the type of crime.

Would you do away with such distinctions as first-degree versus second-degree murder? If 'hate crime' is to be despised as 'thought crime,' then so is first-degree murder -- premeditation is also a 'thought crime' in that case. Hate crimes are targetted against victims on the basis of hatred of who they are, what they think, or what they represent. The current perpetrator "hates liberals" and not just gays but also those who support gay rights. His hate crime can have the effect of inducing fear in individuals like those he targeted -- in effect, becoming an attempted act of terrorism.

In fact, no system of true justice should ignore the thought processes of alleged perpetrators. What was intended for what reasons should always be a consideration. Only a system of injustice would ignore the distinctions between manslaughter and murder, between second-degree and first-degree murder, and between hate crimes and crimes that are not hate crimes.

[scheming daemons]

23. The difference between manslaughter and murder is intent

if the perpetrator did not intend to kill the victim(s), then it is manslaughter... and by definition, there was no motive "to kill".


Now...once you decide something is murder, it can be 1st of 2nd degree.

1st degree: the perpetrator intended to kill, and had "malice aforethought" - i.e. planned it

2nd degree: the perpertrator intended to kill, but it was a "spur of the moment" thing... jealous rage, etc.



These have nothing to do with the political thoughts of the perpetrator. There should be no distinction between killing someone because you "hate" them or killing someone for another reason...i.e. for money.

The *REASON* for the killing is what makes something a hate crime. 1st and 2nd degree isn't based on the *REASON*, it is based on the *PLANNING*.


Adding extra-penalties because the perprator had thoughts that you find distasteful is penalizing thought.


It is despicable to hate gays simply because they are gay. But it should NEVER be illegal to hold such views, however distasteful.


If one brutally murders a gay person simply because they are gay, it should not be penalized any more than if they brutally murder a gay person for another reason.


thought crimes is an oxymoron in a free society. Thoughts are not criminal. Only actions.

[RaleighNCDUer]

19. It is not the thoughts that makes it a hate crime - it is the intent to

'send a message' to the intended group. Gunning down a liberal in the course of a robbery is murder. Gunning down a liberal because that person is a liberal and you want the liberals to be scared is murder plus 1.

They are two different crimes.

It is not the thought - it is the intimidation, the terror inflicted on the targeted community.

[Marr]

12. I want to see this letter. I want to know how many times he paraphrases Rush and Hannity.

[damntexdem]

13. A hate crime that comes home to some of us.

One of the persons killed and two of the injured had moved to Knoxville from here last year, had been members of our UU church.

And there are at least as many nutcases per population here as in Knoxville, and as many fomenters of hate.

[izzybeans]

16. Sounds like Terrorism to me.

[RaleighNCDUer]

17. I knew the "he hated religion" thing was bullshit, too --

they painted him as an atheist, shooting up the only church I know of that welcomes atheists.

[NYC_SKP]

20. He hates the "types" who a part of the UU community.

And thus he hates me, which makes it even more personal.

It easily qualifies and both hate crime and terrorism, though not necessarily in legal terms.

We'll see what his letter reads and what other evidence arises.

Sad. Tragic.

[mmonk]

21. No doubt.

[Fire Walk With Me]

22. "he planned to shoot until police shot him"

Suicide by cop- sounds like this man had problems he could not solve and chose a place that would bring a quick response. This may be more about his ego not being able to deal with not having a job, seeking someone/something to blame for an impossible situation (one intolerable to his ego), and setting himself up to get blown away.

I could easily be wrong and am praying for all involved. Especially the children putting on the play he crashed. Not good..

[NYC_SKP]

24. Yea, but suicide by cop really didn't need to involve others,

much less people as tolerant as UUers.

Oddly enough, the people who are probably at the root of his job loss are at the other end of the political spectrum.

:shrug:

[Fire Walk With Me]

25. I agree all the way around.

[TexasObserver]

28. MSM dropped this story like a hot potato.

It is the story of those who actually follow the kind of lessons Jesus (and others, in other times) preached being attacked and killed for living those beliefs.

It should be covered as such, but it barely gets coverage beyond "angry loner goes on rampage."

[NYC_SKP]

29. Somehow, peacefulness just doesn't sell.

Not in America, not in these times.

sigh.

[noonwitch]

30. It doesn't need to be designated as a hate crime for prosecution

They've got murder one charges. I'm reasonably sure that TN is a death penalty state, but I doubt most of the UU people would want to see him executed.

If someone is getting mandatory life/the death penalty, who needs to charge him with any additional counts?

I only support hate crime terminology for non-murder cases, to differentiate between someone writing "Marsha loves John" on a park bench from painting a swastika on a jewish family's home.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

32. I'm Not Sure That 'Liberals' Are Actually A Legal Hate Crime Grouping Are They?