Why is it, when the subject is pornography that degrades women,

[hedgehog]

we are assured that viewing pornography has no influence on people's actions, but so many today are convinced that Jim D. Adkisson did what he did because he listens to Right Wing commentators?

[DS1]

1. Because serial masturbators sleep it off?

:shrug:

[meegbear]

106. Takes one to know one.

[DS1]

153. what were we talking about?

:hangover:

[MichiganVote]

2. Right wing = political pornography

I'd like to know why we give hell to the kids for their violent video games when we surely practive so much of that and more in real life.

[mudesi]

3. I don't think pornography promotes hate

Lust, yes, but not hate.

[defendandprotect]

52. It's propaganda against women --- degrading women . . . why is that a turn-on for men?

[Indenturedebtor]

82. Some of it is degrading - some of it isn't

Just to choose one extreme - Do you think that porn that features women in leather dominatrix suits stepping on men's dangly bits is degrading to women? :shrug:

I think that it's a spectrum, and I do think that much of the porn out there IS degrading to women, but not all of it.

[masmdu]

88. Uh...what about GAY porn?

[Mad_Dem_X]

151. Gay porn is hot.

Well, when it's two guys. ;-)

[Taverner]

167. No one can make you feel inferior without your permission

So if you feel inferior because someone did a photo set that you feel threatened by, besides not looking at it you can stop feeling offended by someones' crazy fantasy.

[LiberalPersona]

209. Unless a woman is forced into it, I don't see how it's degrading

Also, why does the same not hold true for male porn?

It's always "degrading to women", but nothing is ever said at all about the men in porn. Like men are so low they can't degrade themselves or something.

[debbierlus]

292. You are kidding, right?

Porn enacts many men's (note I said MANY, not ALL) fantasies...(also some womens)....

Porn is a multi-billion dollar industry and it is the dirty lil open secret. This country has a deep conflict with sexuality. We have 1 in 3 children being sexually abused before the age of 18 (not the monsters on the street, but injured and previously abused people who bear their own scars and pass on their pain), and so many more prolific sexual problems...Porn enacts the subconcious of the masses.

And, some of it is very ugly.

Until we have the courage to address the dark side of sexuality and release the truth of sexual abberation through truth and honest dialogue (not judgement and moral degradation), we will continue to suffer the impact of this problem

Porn is a symptom, not the problem.

And, in my opinion, all the men I have talked to about how porn is empowering to women and how it is harmless, they are immediately silenced when they consider a women they love in their lives being on their knees getting a facial.

[MrScorpio]

297. What's more degrading to women:

Denying them comprehensive reproductive health care or paying willing participants a lot of money to film them screwing whomever they see fit?

I have to tell you... Most guys like to see (mostly good looking) women screw... We're kinda quirky like that

[Catch22Dem]

Maybe because there's a pretty big divide between the two

porn does not equal hate speech

[Sanctified]

8. I think porn can equal hate speech.

Especially when some men think that all women like to be treated like porn stars in bed. There are some men out there who have some really messed up ideas on what women want.

[mudesi]

12. This may surprise you

Or maybe it won't, but I'm going to try and make this very clear.

MEN HAVE NO IDEA WHAT WOMEN WANT!

Seriously. You have to tell us. We are clueless.

[Sanctified]

17. I am a guy and agree, but it's because of that cluelessness

that some men assume that what they see in porn is what women want. I have watched porn with my wife but she only likes lesbian porn not because she likes women just because she hates how women are treated in straight porn.

[Iris]

246. ha! ha! Maybe she's on to something.

I don't really like to see penises other than my hubby's! But I think the female form is a-ok in most forms!

[LeftyMom]

Most men, even the very smart ones, just don't do subtlety.

If you want something, you have to tell them. Which isn't romantic, but it saves on arguments when they miss the subtle hints.

Figuring that out made my life much easier.

[Kokonoe]

219. If we could just find the statistical average we could get

more than half of all women.:7

[Iris]

247. Right. One thing about porn that makes me uncomfortable is that these days we all have unfettered

access to it, yet sex education (and sexuality education) is non-existent, which means some peoplecould be getting all of their info through porn. I read an article about young men and sex once and there was a quote from an 18 yr. old guy who didn't realize that women actually have pubic hair!

[JeanGrey]

273. I hate to tell you this, but that is not ALL most 18 year old boys

don't know. They don't know a ton and has nothing to do with sex ed. A lot of them will "not know a ton" well into old age when it comes to sex.

[Iris]

274. whatever. But sex ed certainly couldn't hurt.

Ours was called "Family Life" and was just as much about relationships as it was about the basics of sex.

[Catch22Dem]

22. Agreed, however you must admit, there are also those who have VERY interesting desires

Shit that you or I might find pretty jaw-dropping. So, to make blanket statements (which I do not accuse you of doing) is foolish.

"There are some men out there who have some really messed up ideas on what women want"
And there are women (and men) who want really messed up shit done to them. Ever watch Real Sex on HBO? It's like a freakshow!!

[Sanctified]

40. I agree I have no problem with willing adults who participate in kinky stuff.

That is why I said porn can equal hate speech, not always but it can when it sends the wrong message to individuals who are not able to tell the difference between fantasy and reality. I do not think porn should be banned but I would not mind seeing some kind of warning before the video starts stating what you are about to watch is fantasy and if you pull this stunt on your wife or girlfriend it could end with several nights on the couch.

[Catch22Dem]

43. HAHAHAHA

No shit!

[Taverner]

168. That's someone's problem with reality

Like I said earlier, porn is fantasy.

If you have trouble distinguishing the two, maybe you need to get your head checked. Just sayin'.

[tkmorris]

27. I humbly submit to you

That there is porn out there you have not seen, clearly. If you had you'd realize that hate speech is precisely what it is.

[Catch22Dem]

33. No doubt

And I've seen some fucked up shit. My point is, porn does not automatically equal hate speech. If we were to draw a Venn diagram, we'd have some porn by itself, some hate speech by itself, and some overlapping. That was the point I was trying to make.

[tkmorris]

39. Ahh, understood

And I agree completely.

[defendandprotect]

53. Pornography is propaganda against females --- and, of course, filled with hatred

for women ---

Really, we should be looking more at the instincts of males drawn to the degradation of females

and ask why that turns them on?

[Radical Activist]

65. That's a broad generalization.

Sure most porn fits your description. There's also porn that's overtly degrading to men, although its much less common. And I don't think there's anything inherently degrading about sex.

You could also ask why so many women are drawn to men who are drawn to degradation of females. People are odd.

[defendandprotect]

77. Glad you agree ---

However, you well know that no one has said that "sex is degrading" --- so why the need to lie?

I see no signs that anyone but males are attracted to the degradation of females ---

and why would any gender be attracted to their own degradation?

However, the question remains: why are males who watch porn "turned on" by degradation of females?

Try answering the question ---

[ZombieHorde]

why would any gender be attracted to their own degradation?

I don't know, but many are.

[booley]

204. Define "Degradation"

" see no signs that anyone but males are attracted to the degradation of females ---"

Because I know quite a few Lesbians into SM and bondage and rape scenes .

And as someone else pointed out earlier, what about gay SM and Fem Dom?

It seems you have a very narrow view of the subject and your confusing your opinion for objective truth.

[Catch22Dem]

68. Yes, another blanket statement

And all Muslims are out to kill us too.

Let me ask you this; if my wife asks me to film us in bed because she likes it, is that degrading to her?

You can't say that all porn is degrading any more than you can say that all NASCAR fans are rednecks, or all military members are republicans.

[defendandprotect]

78. Pitiful . . .

Do you understand the difference between the porn industry and your bedroom --- ??!!!

As the Canadian Supreme Court has recognized . . . the porn industry does harm to the
equality of females. --

[scheming daemons]

99. I don't recognize the authority of the Canadian Supreme Court

They aren't the arbiter of truth any more than any other body.

[defendandprotect]

111. I doubt they recognize you, either ---

:rofl:

[scheming daemons]

118. Why won't you answer the question about gay porn? Is it because it invalidates your meme?

[defendandprotect]

180. I think I'll I'll leave that to gays to answer . . . your turn ---

[Catch22Dem]

161. That's the major flaw in your pseudo-argument

I'm not talking about porn as an industry, I'm talking about pornography.

[Threedifferentones]

256. Sigh

You define porn quite narrowly defendandprotect. Then when people point out that even if that is the biggest form of porn it is far from all porn or even most porn you ignore them. Lots of things do harm to women or have. The govt, the church, books, movies, TV, you name it. Shall we ban it all? Not all porn is degrading to women. Some porn degrades men. It is pitiful that you refuse to admit the subtlety of this issue and instead just yell PORN DEGRADES WOMEN on and on, not that other people don't listen to you.

But probably you are a troll and already knew that why do I bother wasting my time..getting stoned is silly.

[seabeyond]

278. you are right. not all. but a lot of it does. all of it objectivifies. dehumanizes

and you are right it is in so much more of our culture today and not just porn. so a legitimate question that no one has answered for dap is why men get off with the degradation of women.

men get together to bond with each other and they feel the need to be as crude and vulger about the females, any female they can grab hold of. whoever is the crudest about a female, wins. why?

so why.... is that not being answered.... either

[masmdu]

89. Uh...what about GAY porn?

[Taverner]

170. See? When it comes to that, it ruins the poster's false logic

Gay Porn, Lesbian Porn, Amateur Housewives posting on free sites - that all erodes the very ANTI FEMINIST position that women need to be "SAVED" from porn.

But that poster needs help.

[readmoreoften]

181. Andrea Dworkin something something about gay men being surrogate "women"

in porn, something something. There have bad, irrational, arguments for every comment you can come up with.

You collaborator, you! In the end, the anti-porn argument becomes nothing more than anti-women-who-consume-produce-enjoy sexual images. Images of women as innately nuturing and loving mothers who aim only to be housewives are also a damaging mischaracterization of "all women." Anti-porn folks don't give a good goddamn about that.

I only care about the labor conditions of sex workers. Period. All else is nonsense. If your husband thinks all women want "double anal" penetration, then you married an idiot.

[Taverner]

169. Um, I respectfully have to say you're full of feces there

Porn is fantasy. Not reality.

To confuse the two means you have a problem that needs psychiatric attention. Get help.

[Deja Q]

175. Talk about a wide stance...

:yoiks:

[Bonobo]

4. Holy false analogies, Batman!

[BlooInBloo]

97. hahaha - +1

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

5. Does porn literally tell people to degrade women?

[defendandprotect]

54. ...it gives license to it --- makes it seem usual --- cool ---

The question really is WHY are makes turned on by the degradation of females?

[masmdu]

91. Uh...what about GAY porn?

[scheming daemons]

100. This is the third time you asked.... you won't get an answer

[masmdu]

105. Oh, I know. Just pointing up how full of it the OP is

[hedgehog]

243. I'm sorry , I didn't realize you were asking me. In the OP, I referred to

"porn that degrades women which I thought was sufficient to rule out porn that praises women, gay porn, lesbian porn etc. Instead of addressing the entire scope of porn, I wanted to ask a simple question:

If we say that Mr.Adkisson was influenced by right wing pundits, how can we claim that no one is influenced by porn that degrades women, i.e. specifically porn that is "hate speech".

[Dissent Is Patriotic]

125. I am a heterosexual female and I love porn...

not the soft core kind that is on Cinemax at night, the regular kind. I don't feel degraded at all when I watch it. I don't feel objectified by porn.

[scheming daemons]

135. Congratulations.... you're normal.

[TroglodyteScholar]

146. Why do you hate yourself and your gender!?

:sarcasm:

[Dissent Is Patriotic]

148. You forgot to ask me why I hate America. n/t

[Catch22Dem]

162. You're objectifying women!

:sarcasm:

[Chulanowa]

127. On the one hand

We have talking heads TELLING PEOPLE TO KILL OTHER PEOPLE

On the other hand, we have images and videos that may be degrading or offensive to some.

The equivilancy of these two things is nill. One is blatant incitement, the other is smut.

If you can please point me towards a porn studio that says "go out and abuse women" the way that Rush Limbaugh and Ann Coulter say "Go kill liberals" then you'll have a better point.

And forget gay porn, what do you think of fem-dom stuff?

[aspergris]

6. anybody who says pornography has

NO influence on people's actions is a moron, and is ignoring data.

practically ANYTHING we watch, read, etc. has SOME (greater or lesser influence) on us.

The issue is - just because it has AN influence, does that mean we can ban it? And the answer - if you respect the constitution - is no.

Fwiw, viewing tons of movies with the heroes engaged in risky behavior and/or drug abuse, etc. could have an influence on you - normalizing it. so what? It's still constitutionally protected.

Period.

I think that anybody who thinks there is a direct causal connection - iow if adkisson had never listened to rwradio there is no doubt he would not have done this - is DREAMING.

but could it have helped reinforce his actions? sure.

so what?

that's the price you pay to live in a free society.;

do i think it's ridiculous that everybody is kneejerking and all of a sudden rush et al are responsible for this guy? of course it's ridiculous

[hedgehog]

19. I couldn't agree more!

[Catch22Dem]

23. Hmmmm, I wouldn't say it has no influence

But I would argue that porn or anything else for that matter will not universally affect our actions negatively. Some people, yes, some people, no.

[defendandprotect]

55. I think, nonethess, it has to be recognized as propaganda against females . . .

and that this very active propaganda does harm to females ---

that's us, our daughters -- our sisters, our aunts, etal ---

the other question we have to look at is why males are turned on by the degrading of females?

[Indenturedebtor]

83. Propaganda against females? Hmmmm I disagree

There is a lot of porn that's degrading to women, but there are even whole genres of "women worship" porn.

Here's a question - is gay porn degrading to men? I would personally answer - some is and some isn't.

I don't think that sex or it's depiction is inherently degrading to women or men.

Some males might be turned on by degrading porn, and that's revolting, but being turned on by pictures of naked women is perfectly normal and natural. We are monkeys after all.

[defendandprotect]

113. Stick to the subject . . .

why are many males attracted to porn which degrades females?

who said "sex is degrading to women or men" . . . ?

stick with the subject ---

[Indenturedebtor]

119. I am sticking to the subject. I think that your assertion is bigotted and broadbrush:

"All porn is degrading to women, men like porn, therefore all men get off on degrading women."

I think that you need to prove your first assumption before we even address the other two. I see that you changed your assertion with the qualifier "many" which is great! But still tell me do you think that pictures of naked women are degrading? It would seem to suggest that sexual appreciation of women in any manner is inherently degrading. I disagree. The vast majority of porn is pictures of women (or men) in suggestive poses and various states of undress.

I don't think that simply seeing a pretty girl naked in a picture is degrading or harmful to men's view of women in general.

[defendandprotect]

183. Then answer the question . . .

and stop the game-playing ---

Pornography is propaganda to degrade females ---

The vast majority of porn carries themes of domination --- degradation of females.

Why this need in males to see women degraded?

[Chan790]

193. You still can't assert "facts" without proof.

How is pornography degrading to women? Cite examples.

Please identify by broad descriptors these thematic tropes of domination and degradation of females present in most porn?

I'll even get you started: (Though I'm going to save myself time and refute the ones I'm giving you up-front.)

-"Pornography often depicts women as unintelligent." (Of course, one can argue that pornography depicts cast-members of all genders as unintelligent.)

-"Pornography often depicts women as sexually-submissive." (This depiction mirrors society in-large...psychological studies have shown that women do, in fact, tend to be sexually-oriented towards submissive more often than dominant. As any pro-dom(me) will tell you, the submissive actually has all the power anyways.)

[defendandprotect]

197. You still haven't answered the question . . .

and with thinking like this I can see why you need porn --

-"Pornography often depicts women as sexually-submissive." (This depiction mirrors society in-large...psychological studies have shown that women do, in fact, tend to be sexually-oriented towards submissive more often than dominant. As any pro-dom(me) will tell you, the submissive actually has all the power anyways.)

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

234. Meh.

"why are many males attracted to porn which degrades females?

who said "sex is degrading to women or men" . . . ?"

Porn is film of people having sex. Therefore, you're saying you find sex to be degrading. Unless it's the filming you object to.

[Indenturedebtor]

251. First - please show me some numbers

You're making strong assertions about porn in general that need to be backed up by numbers. Your impression of pornography in general is not a strong basis for strong assertions.

Second - again I'll ask you to qualify "males" with the word "some" or even "many". And again please support your argument with numbers.


Simply because you have a certain impression of a thing, does not define the reality of that thing. I'm not game playing at all. This is the simple procedure for forming a reasoned argument. Any reasoned argument needs proof and qualifying statements no?

In my experience I've seen both degrading pornography and non-degrading. Perhaps it's simply what I choose to expose myself to but I generally run into the non-degrading kind.

Using your methods here I could just as easily say: "Most porn is twisted child porn. Why do males need to see children exploited?" And we both know that is simply not true.

[ZombieHorde]

123. why are many males attracted to porn which degrades females?

I am not a 100% sure, but I would guess that it is in the same category as prison sex. Sexual attraction to domination. I have not seen porn that was anti-female, but I have seen cartoons that were, such as Mystery of the Necronomicon.

[masmdu]

92. Uh...what about GAY porn?

[defendandprotect]

114. Are you gay?

If so contribute your thoughts ---

[Zookeeper]

178. Clearly, the discussion isn't about gay porn.

That's probably why no one is answering your question. Why don't you start a thread about gay porn? Or are you trying to make a point that the poster should have specified "Hetero porn?"

[SidneyCarton]

71. Precisely, you are what you read, view, listen to, it influences you thoughts.

Does that make everyone who looks at porn a rapist? No, but just as long-term exposure to hatred, bigotry or intolerance has effects on our mindset, and long-term exposure to abuse, brutality, torture, etc. alters our views on the subject, long-term exposure to pornography will alter our perceptions as well.

Sex in and of itself is not degrading, but the portrayal of the opposite sex, be they men or women, will affect how we percieve that group of people, their wants, desires, and motivations in every day life.

Watch what you want, listen to what you want, think what you want, it's still a free country, but realize that everything you take in affects you in one way or another.

[Dissent Is Patriotic]

147. I'm sorry to disagree, but I watch a pornography movie

maybe once every two weeks. I am a heterosexual female and I watch your standard Spice channel porn. I am happy to report it has had no effect whatsover on my actions.

[Deja Q]

176. Don't you mean "kneejerking off"?

:yoiks:

[Mojambo]

7. I don't think Adkisson did what he did because of right wing radio

Perhaps I'm in the minority here.

[LostinVA]

18. I don't, either -- I think he's a sociopath

[jberryhill]

139. Ding, Ding, Ding, Ding.... We Have A Winner

This whole exercise of "why did X commit heinous crime Y" is trying to provide a "reason" for unreasonable behavior.

This guy's politics were no more of a "reason" for what he did than were the politics of the Unabomber, the Manson Family, or the 9/11 terrorists.

Charlie Manson listened to the Beatles.

Personally, listening to Barry Manilow fills me with the urge to kill someone, but I do try to restrain myself.... mostly.

[Withywindle]

189. Me too.

Geez, I remember laughing my ass off at the PMRC back in the 80s, and that case where some kid who happened to be a metal fan killed himself so his parents tried to sue Ozzy Osbourne, and all cases of that ilk. Pathetic. Trying to blame some random stranger's "speech" for a tragedy they had nothing to do with.

I totally think right-wing radio is hate speech, and sometimes I wish I lived in a European country where that kind of incitement wasn't allowed, and I'd love to see them all drowning in their own feces in hell (in my own sick fantasies, which I totally don't act on).

But I have to acknowledge there are millions of people who listen to that shit and have never killed anyone and never would.

Speech does not CAUSE violence.

Sociopaths cause violence. And they will reach for any excuse to justify themselves: The Devil/Judas Priest/Grand Theft Auto/Pornography/Sean Hannity Made Me Do It.

Bullshit. If you're the criminal, YOU made you do it, no one else. But people who have an agenda against whatever the scapegoat was will latch on to that sociopath's rationalization as if it means something.

I don't think we should even respect that tactic. Identify it for what it is: a dodge of responsibility.

[JHB]

28. I hope not. I concur with you...

Adkisson's actions have "mental breakdown" written all over them. Without forgetting what he did, attempted "suicide by cop" is still attempted suicide. Severe depression channeled in a rancid direction.

On the other hand, the kind of hateful rhetoric he'd apparently been steeping himself in for the past decade certainly affected how he acted out when who-knows-what triggered this outburst.

So are whe righty blowhards responsible for Adkisson's deeds? No, but he's still "one of theirs", not ours. Their disciple, just like Tim McVeigh, not ours.

It's not "their fault", but don't let them pretend they have clean hands, either.

[LostInAnomie]

9. If Adkisson was a porn addict...

... I wonder what he would have tried to kill people with?

[zazen]

29. anything that sexual predators usually use when they rape and kill women?

[varkam]

66. Being addicted to that sort of stuff ...

does not make one a predator, just to clarify.

[JHB]

30. Hypocrisy, of course. He IS a right-wing nut, after all. n/t

[morgan2]

10. because pornography is about getting off.. not hating

if you don't enjoy what a man does to you in bed, tell him or stop having sex with him. No ones forcing you to fornicate.

[Sanctified]

14. So it's ok for men to act like asses in bed in the first place.

Sorry but I think treating women like meat is wrong, if a woman wants to initiate degrading sex fine but no woman should ever have to tell a guy to stop calling her a slut, whore, bitch or be told to shut the fuck up while he fucks her in the ass and cums on her face.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

15. Well she doesn't have to.

They do it for the money.

:shrug:

[Catch22Dem]

25. Are you suggesting that's the norm?

[morgan2]

26. I dont know about you

but any girl Ive ever met would either leave/kick the guy out if someone started calling her those kind of names. I'm not sure where you get the idea that watching porn would lead someone to think being a jerk is ok. If anything conditions men to be jerks, its women responding to it. If they didn't jerks would stop being jerks pretty quick.

[TankLV]

49. Boy - then you're watching the wrong kind of porn...

I've never seen anything like that - but then again, I'm a gay man...but I'm sure the kine you just described is just a very SMALL niche - like shitting on someone to get off...on the fringe at best...

[ZombieHorde]

141. calling her a slut, whore, bitch or be told to shut the fuck up while he fucks her in

I have not seen that movie.

[EOTE]

155. You've never seen "Horny Nasty Slut Bang 83"?

You prude!

[ZombieHorde]

156. No, I haven't. Does it have any good zombie scenes?

[LostinVA]

16. uh oh

:popcorn:

[defendandprotect]

56. Pornography is about males "getting off" on the degradation of females . . .

evidently that's what they need to turn them on . . .

[EOTE]

76. And romantic comedies are about women getting off to the degredation of men.

Both statements are equally accurate. But your misandry is undeniable that you'd think that the bulk of men turn to porn for that. I wonder how you'd react when you find out that even some of your loved ones watch pornography.

[defendandprotect]

81. Try to answer the question . . .

why are males "turned on" by the degradation of females in porn -- ?

[Indenturedebtor]

84. Leading question - bigotted broadbrush n/t

[defendandprotect]

108. Avoiding question . . . bigotted against women?

[EOTE]

85. Most males are not.

There may be a few of them out there, but they're a very small minority. Why do you have such an unhealthy attitude towards porn?

[defendandprotect]

109. If you're watching porn . . .

you're familiar with themes of domination --- this is degradation of females ---

Why do you find that a "turn on"?

Why do you think that degradation of females is "healthy"?

[EOTE]

115. You know far less than you think you do.

Yes, I watch porn. Apparently you don't and know absolutely nothing about it. If you do watch porn, I'll have to say that you're a hypocrite of the highest order. I don't find degradation of women a turn on and don't think it's healthy. So I've just proven you know even less about me than you know about porn. Extremely little. All you're good at is flinging meaningless words around to attempt to paint all porn and all males under the same brush. Pretty damn stupid if you ask me.

[defendandprotect]

182. About you . . . ???

:rofl:

puerile ---

If you don't get turned on by degradation of females then why are you watching porn?

[EOTE]

229. I like looking at naked women?

Just like the great bulk of other males who watch porn. Is that so difficult to understand? Sorry, I forgot who I was talking to for a moment. I'd actually be immensely surprised if someone like you did understand that.

[Catch22Dem]

163. Why do you insist that all porn is about "themes of domination"

Methinks you need to go rent some decent porn. :evilgrin:

[RadiationTherapy]

172. I specifically look for porn that does not use words or actions degrading to women

(by my own standards).

Frankly, it takes more work than is acceptable.

I am a pretty vanilla guy who's not looking for power dynamics.

[morgan2]

185. because women normally have all the power with when to have sex?

Its not surprising that some men would be turned on by turning that power relationship around. People like to feel powerful, wow big surprise.

[Chan790]

186. I'm your huckleberry.

I'd love to answer the question however it's an logically-invalid question (an example of a type of rhetorical fallacy known as "Leading the question"...that is asserting something unproven (and nearly always false) in the posed question as fact) until you prove that:

1.) Porn is degrading to women.
2.) Men get off on that degradation.

Until then, asking "why" is premature. You cannot simply assume your bias to be proof absent evidence. Of course that evidence has to be:

a.) Verifiable.
b.) The result of a peer-reviewed study hewing to the principles of the scientific method.
c.) Not anecdotal.
d.) Not the product of an interested party creating a study designed-explicitly to yield a certain result validating their own pre-existing biases.

If you can prove that your question is valid at this point in the discussion...it gets answered. Until then it's a just another desperate grasp at not losing by trying to make up your own facts to reinforce your bigotry. I mean it works for Sean Hannity.

You probably cheat at Candyland too...don't you? :P

(You're now going to claim I'm off-topic because you just got humiliated.)

[EOTE]

230. Don't expect to get a decent reply.

It's far easier to just make up horrific stuff you want to associate with "the enemy". The tactics they've been using aren't just intellectually dishonest, they're damn insulting too.

[gaspee]

126. HAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHA

You're fucking *funny*

You should take your act on the road. Romantic comedies contribute to the tens of thousands of men brutally raped and murdered in the US each year!

Heh!

:Sarcasm:

[EOTE]

131. You are far less funny. And even less informed about the issues you talk about.

If you're trying to suggest that pornography contributes to rape every year, that's just ridiculously stupid. All evidence that's currently out suggest that if anything, the availability of porn has GREATLY REDUCED the amount of rapes. So, if that was an attempt to be witty and or funny... EPIC FAIL.

[gaspee]

137. You couldn't be more wrong.

Actually, our violent culture and men being fucking assholes who have to dominate women is what leads to the tens of thousands of women being assaulted and murdered every year.

And before you go all wahwah! BUt you hate menz! on me -- let me say it... not ALL men, but enough that women have to watch their backs, never knowing when they're going to meet up with one of the fuckheads.

Nice way to live, huh?

Or maybe you live in a nice neighborhood where bad things never happen.

[EOTE]

143. You don't know how to follow an argument, do you?

I said nothing of our violent culture or the fucking asshole men that you hang around with. I was talking about PORN. You know, what the OP is about? I won't cry to you about how you hate men, it's quite apparent by your ridiculously stupid talking points that you do. PORN is the issue here and it's PORN that has led to the DECLINE in rapes over the past several decades. Do you have anything substantial to add? Or more stupid mockery? Perhaps you'd like to change the topic to gun violence and argue that with me?

[unapatriciated]

271. This is an interesting read and seems to support your argument....

http://www.impactlab.com/2008/01/06/internet-porn-shown-to-decrease-incidence-of-rape/
http://anthonydamato.law.northwestern.edu/

This is also another interesting read,
You may not like the guy but he did stand up to Politics as usual in Washington.
http://www.democracynow.org/2004/8/3/larry_flynt_the_countrys_greatest_defender

For poster defendandprotect to make a blanket statement that suggest that all men who watch porn enjoy degrading women, is a little extreme.
That is exactly what they are is doing when the poster continues to ask the same question with no statistic to back it up.

[EOTE]

299. I love Mr. Flynt.

Not only does he know his porn, but he's consistently been a defender of liberty. I agree 100% about the blanket statements. Not a very good way to make an intelligent argument.

[defendandprotect]

223. True . . .

Domination and control . . .

and they don't want to wonder WHY . . . !!


Hi- GREAT post!

[EOTE]

228. Yes, great post that completely ignores everything I said.

Have fun giving each other pats on the back. It doesn't negate that you're both completely wrong. Would you like to refute anything that I've shown in the links I provided?

[unapatriciated]

272. your wrong.....

men in power have been assholes since the begining of time the porn industry did not create them.
Rape is not about sex it is about power.
before you lecture me, I know this from personal experience.

[defendandprotect]

222. So ... you're saying that men would rape MORE if it wasn't for porn . . . ????

Perhaps we should be grateful that these rapists are indoors watching porn . . . ?

:eyes:

[EOTE]

224. Yes, that's precisely what I'm saying.

I know you have a very hard time grasping that porn isn't the cause of all of society's evils. But you're welcome to continue believing that me watching porn is going to ignite insatiable lust within me that can only be quenched by rape.

[defendandprotect]

231. So . . . if it wasn't for porn . . .

YOU might be raping someone . . . is that what you're saying ???

[EOTE]

232. Wow, you're an incredible idiot if you believe that.

And I'm guessing you might. Let me make this clear so even your ridiculously strained brain can understand it. I WOULD NEVER RAPE A PERSON WITH OR WITHOUT PORN. People who would rape under any circumstance are sick and evil people. It just so happens that porn most likely provides an outlet for these sick and evil people that they otherwise wouldn't have. Now, do you have any more stupid and insulting bullshit to add or are you done for the day? Sick, sick sick.

[defendandprotect]

235. So . . . you watch porn, but have no interest . . .

in raping anyone . . .

but you think that other men do and that porn stops these "sick and evil people."

I now see a "most likely" ....


However, you probably also know that rapists in our prisons have told us that they were

in part motivated by porn . . . ?

[EOTE]

238. You're going to trust the word of rapists in prison?

I never said that there was a scientifically direct link between the increased availability of porn and the decrease in rape. I simply said that as porn has become more available, rape has decreased. THAT is an undeniable fact. I also provided a link that strongly suggests that the drop in rape IS directly a result of the increased availability of porn. It's nice to know that you buy the Reagan funded line about porn causing violence towards women. You do know that Reagan swapped the scientists who said that there was nothing to suggest that pornography increases violence towards women with his own fundy scientists, right? This might surprise you as well, but those scientists hand picked by Reagan said the EXACT SAME THING. That the availability of pornography DOES NOT increase violence towards women, and in fact, might even be responsible for the drop in sexual crimes towards women. But you must really love that rat bastard Reagan. You've done nothing but try to get me in a "gotcha" moment but have failed epically. You can't disprove a single thing I've said, so you just keep on throwing more and more bullshit at me. Would you like to try your hand with another failed attempt at sounding witty or caustic?

[Scout]

225. "All evidence that's currently out"

got a link to any of that evidence that proves the crime of rape has A) decreased and B) the decrease is BECAUSE of the greater availability of porn?

[EOTE]

226. Here's a bit...

I never suggested that there's direct evidence that the availability of porn is directly responsible for the decrease in rape, but there's definitely a correlation that as the availability of pornography has increased, rape has gone down.

This link does a pretty good job of explaining the strength of the correlation:
http://www.impactlab.com/2008/01/06/internet-porn-shown-to-decrease-incidence-of-rape/

There is no doubt that rapes have gone down as pornography availability has increased. That much is undebatable. I think Mr. Damato does a pretty good job of showing that the decrease in rape is because of the increased availability or porn, and not in spite of it.

[defendandprotect]

236. If that's the case . . . wouldn't/shouldn't porn be free ---? We could start showing it to

males in our highschools --- start early!

Maybe the coaches of our sports teams would run some porn for the players ... after the game?

And, of course, all of the relationship counseling in our prisons should include porn ---

that would help family/spousal unity ---


The family that watches porn together is decreasing national rape figures --- !!!

[EOTE]

240. The last refuge of an intellectual weakling.

America has a very unhealthy attitude towards sex (as you've been very helpful in illustrating). I'd feel a little awkward watching porn around other guys, but I'm all for porn being free. Would you like the porn industry to become nationalized? I'd be all for that. And you wouldn't find a family watching porn together a bit creepy? Just what are you trying to suggest/say here? I know you're attempting to make a point here, but you do a really shitty job of it. Perhaps you'd be better off just calling me a he-man woman hater. I look forward to your next incredibly substantive post.

[defendandprotect]

281. Here it is . . .

you're on ignore --

[EOTE]

283. Well, that was about as substantial as I expected.

I'd have been shocked if you actually tried to attack my logic or arguments, but I'll give you credit for not calling me a rapist.

[masmdu]

93. Uh...what about GAY porn?

[defendandprotect]

110. Are you gay? Then add your opinion . .

[gaspee]

129. How many times are you going to ask the same fucking question?

I'll answer your asinine monkey repeat_repeat! question since the people with more sense are ignoring you.

Gay porn that treats the bottom the same way women are treated (slut! whore! cum pig!) and other cute stuff like that, should be categorized the same way because all they're doing is substituting men for women, yet still acting out the hateful dominant/submissive actor/actee relationship.

Gay porn that doesn't turn one of the men into a woman (read: target of abuse) I wouldn't classify the same way.

I would bet you've never even *seen* gay porn.

[defendandprotect]

202. Now why were you so reluctant to answer ... ? I think you did well .. .

Gay porn that treats the bottom the same way women are treated (slut! whore! cum pig!) and other cute stuff like that, should be categorized the same way because all they're doing is substituting men for women, yet still acting out the hateful dominant/submissive actor/actee relationship.

and you're confirming the degrading nature of pornography ---

And . . . while we're here . . .


Let's just remind ourselves of this --- and that the base of the word means "whore" ---

por·nog·ra·phy –noun obscene writings, drawings, photographs, or the like, esp. those having little or no artistic merit.




Origin: 1840-50; Greek pornograph (os) writing about harlots (porno-, comb.form of porne harlot


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Mad_Dem_X]

152. It's still hot.

As long as nobody's getting hurt, I have no problem with porn. When it's violent, and/or the person is clearly not having a good time, that's when I have a problem.

[defendandprotect]

199. And, how would you know...? Do you have a crystal ball . . . ?

As long as patriarchy exists --- as long as there is an industry like the porn industry --
there is every reason to question how many women are NOT doing these things willingly.

You have a problem --- in imagining that you "know" . . .

[Taverner]

171. Yes - and I'll add that porn is pure fantasy

Unless the guy is unhinged, he knows real women aren't like that. Only hookers, and even then they are paying for said fantasy.

I think the big problem is with these false feminists who want to "save" us from porn. They have much more in common with Dobson and Robertson than they do you and I. And they have the audacity to call themselves progressive. Progressive at what? Progressively suppressing our speech?

[defendandprotect]

237. So you see women in porn as not "real" . . . ..

but as "hookers" ---

who are charging the guy ---

And, oddly enough "hooker" is the basis of the word pornography --- it means "whores."

WHORE -
1. a woman who engages in promiscuous sexual intercourse, usually for money; prostitute; harlot; strumpet.
–verb (used without object) 2. to act as a whore.


Now you've confirmed that these women in porn are being portrayed as "whores" -- "who aren't real

women" ---and you don't think being portrayed as a whore is degrading?


And, if this degradation of females doesn't continue on . . . then you've lost your right to

"free speech" . . . ???


Basically, what you're saying is if the porn industry can no longer exploit females as "whores"

in pornography, then you've lost your "free speech" .....


Now . . . whose free speech depends on your exploitation . . . ???

[LostinVA]

11. He did what he did because he's a sociopath

Plenty of people listen and read those RW fools and don't do that. I think many people want to explain actions like this, because it is so random and senseless and scary.

(And, if you read the "DU Porno Wars," you know I don't believe porn in and of itself degrades women!)

[defendandprotect]

239. Yes . . . propaganda usually appeals most to people who aren't good at

critical thinking ---

[Fovea]

13. Will you draw the line

between pornography that does not degrade women, men, or quadrupeds and that which does?

Every time I try I get a big smudge. That is because everyone I ask draws a slightly different line.

Why do people who are otherwise rational insist that the market has an invisible hand?

I fear that pornography is as pornographic as the society at which it is aimed is repressive. It is less important to degrade women, IMO, in cultures where the role of sexuality in human relations is not a bad thing.

The answer to both of my questions involves the cultural trance, while they may have answers that look objective in the right light, the actual value is probably in the question, and how it acts as a foil against our unquestioned perceptions.

Mr. Adkisson turned himself into a terrorist. Just like our other great terrorist Tim McVeigh. It is a decision taken by a frantic and unbalanced mind, surely, but what is rarely said is how close to unbalanced the average person on the street is, anywhere in the world at any given moment.

How far am I from being a terrorist? How far are you?

It's like that line so famously uttered by Justice Potter-Stewart about knowing it when you see it. The unasked question is "Where were you standing when you saw it?"

It is as true for terrorism as it is for pornography. Perhaps there is some relationship there, who knows?

[hedgehog]

21. I wouldn't try to censor porn, because as you noted, one person's

porn is another person's biting social commentary.

I think you are correct that there is a relationship between porn and an attitude that human sexuality is bad. To me, that explains why so many fundy preachers are hooked on porn!


I just saw all the threads today blaming Rush et al for inspiring Adkisson when so many here insist that what we see and hear has no effect on behavior when it's something they want to see and hear!

[sentelle]

20. why is it

That nudity is always considered both as pornography and as being degrading to women.

I personally think that this bad attitude toward female nudity is degrading to women, and because its influence on society, is bad.

For example: nipple-gate: who hasn't seen a nipple before? For crying out loud, we were all built to breast feed! So, seeing a nipple at six months is ok, and afterwards is naughty? That's just plain disfunctional.

[JHB]

36. My observation is that the only people who have truly beaten "the tyrrany...

...of body image" are nudists/naturists.

[redqueen]

128. Interesting....

Somewhat offtopic, since the OP is about a particular type of porn: the kind that's degrading to women. But very interesting. Seems to send the message that your body is shameful and if you show it and don't feel humiliated or ashamed, there is something wrong with you.

But why simply isolate porn that's degrading to women? What about tv commercials that are degrading to women? Or tv shows? Magazine ads? Movie roles?

Where do we draw that line?

[defendandprotect]

242. This is about getting people to think about things . . . and

while it would take a long time to actually cover a response to the question you raised,

I'd suggest you run over the TV channels and you will note that women appear generally

cleaning toilets, selling products -- and/or showing tits and ass.


This is also part of the propaganda which ridicules women and makes them unacceptable

as insiders in decision making. Naturally, TV shows, magazine ads and movies are all used

by patriarchy to make women look foolish.

So there really is no drawing of a line --- you have to understand it all --- be aware of it all.


I'd also just comment that here . . .

since the OP is about a particular type of porn: the kind that's degrading to women. But very interesting. Seems to send the message that your body is shameful and if you show it and don't feel humiliated or ashamed, there is something wrong with you.

You draw a conclusion that "therefore" the OP is about the "body as shameful" --

No one here is suggesting that there is anything wrong with the "body" or human sexuality ---

we are talking about the pornography industry degrading females.


Oddly, in a "shoe on the other foot" comparison . . . males understand very well the

power of ridicule --- especially when they themselves or one of their group is being

made the object of it.

[redqueen]

284. You misread.

The thing I was saying sent that message was this:

"That nudity is always considered both as pornography and as being degrading to women.

I personally think that this bad attitude toward female nudity is degrading to women, and because its influence on society, is bad.

For example: nipple-gate: who hasn't seen a nipple before? For crying out loud, we were all built to breast feed! So, seeing a nipple at six months is ok, and afterwards is naughty? That's just plain disfunctional."

Not the OP.

I did not respond to the OP... I responded to that post. That's why I said "offtopic". And when I said "But..." that's when I resumed talking about the information in the post I was responding to.

I thought I was quite clear about that.

[seabeyond]

285. good point

breasts were made for feeding, yet there is an outcry to the feeding with the breast today as opposed to decades ago when in all the prudishness of society a mother could be seen breast feeding and not a care in the world. today the breast is no longer what nature intended. it has been held up as the "it" of sex. and the offended at the thought of that breast actually being used to feed a baby as opposed to turning on men. men seem to be outraged a women would dare use the breast as intended in public for them to see. i could remember when i was young in the 60's running up on mothers feeding their babies and no one was bothered or made a deal of it at all.

IF the attitude of breast is the most natural of how we live, i dont think you would find females bothered. but today with all the objectifying of female we have created the unnatural of female per male demand.

[defendandprotect]

287. See my msg #249 just below . . .

[redqueen]

288. Not sure what the correlation is...

:shrug:

And that thing about men's nipples being more sensitive... source?

[defendandprotect]

289. Maybe none . ..

I think both of our msgs are somewhat misread and misdirected ---

However . . .

You've gone for a bit of exaggeration here . . .

And that thing about men's nipples being more sensitive... source?

I did not say "more" . . .

However, are you suggesting that male nipples are not sexually sensitive . . . ?


I also think re your original comments that aside from the Puritans and Ashcroft/Mormons . . .
and other right-wing religous influences, the female body has always been admired --
old paintings and new paintings show us that ---

Unfortunately, the right-wing religous nuts have had a long run at censoring what we can
see on TV, etc. and hear ---




Requoting Msg #249 ---

Interesting thing about nipples --- we can always see men's . . . but not women's . . .
Edited on Wed Jul-30-08 06:14 PM by defendandprotect
yet we know that the male nipples are also sexually sensitive ---
and that also seems to be a taboo subject.

"The Breast Fetish . . .

It is quite remarkable whether male preference for larger breasts is

really based on sexuality. Men like to think that big breasts are "sexy"

and that their own weakness for them implies a tigerish sexiness in themselves.

The truth is that the overblown breast is admired by modern men, not as a

daring sex symbol, as they like to think, but as a Mother Symbol."

[redqueen]

290. Yes...

we seem to be not focusing so much on what the other is saying.

But sorry, no I didn't mean to imply that I thought they weren't sensitive... not sure how I got the word 'more' from 'also'. :P


And we mostly agree... but I don't blame it solely on fundies / puritans.

[defendandprotect]

295. Recently ....

I saw some watercolor paintings by a current artist and you kind of got the feeling

the female in the pictures were his wife --- but I'm not positive.

She wasn't naked --- but they were all very sensual --- very beautiful --

Just simple things, like her sitting on the edge of the bed ---

and like her looking out over a terrace --

Remarkably beautiful ---

Made you wish you were in that relationship --- !!!

[redqueen]

296. If you happen to recall the name of the artist

or any of the paintings, please let me know. I'd like to see those... they sound lovely.

[EFerrari]

24. Because when something is so close to you, you don't see it. n/t

[sentelle]

32. rubbish.

Americans are so fixated on nudity as sex that to some, breast feeding is a taboo subject. Imagine women worrying about arousal during breast feeding, so they refuse to breast feed (yeah, suck down more of that rBGH filled milk, baby). We are being told too much that what we are (as beings in the animal kingdom) is so wrong that anything with the hint of natural is made, somehow naughty. Breasts, big deal, most of us have two. And yes, some of us have an attraction for the (generally) larger sized ones on the female of the species. That's just biology speaking. But I refuse to subscribe to that Paglia'escque notion that all sexuality is somehow based on violence, because it turns a basic thing into something quite ugly. It also tells women that to feel adequate, they have to be barbie. Sorry, but that turns me off.

[EFerrari]

37. You must be responding to some other poster. n/t

[defendandprotect]

249. Interesting thing about nipples --- we can always see men's . . . but not women's . . .

yet we know that the male nipples are also sexually sensitive ---
and that also seems to be a taboo subject.

"The Breast Fetish . . .

It is quite remarkable whether male preference for larger breasts is

really based on sexuality. Men like to think that big breasts are "sexy"

and that their own weakness for them implies a tigerish sexiness in themselves.

The truth is that the overblown breast is admired by modern men, not as a

daring sex symbol, as they like to think, but as a Mother Symbol."

[zazen]

31. thank you hedgehog for the courage to bring up what typically incites the most irrational flaming

[hedgehog]

35. Free speech is free speech.

or


What's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander!

[zazen]

38. and 50% of porn is documentation of a crime, like international underage sex trafficking

Five months ago, when working on a research project, it took me four clicks to get the most awful, "free," freely available stuff clearly done to underage Japanese girls who were clearly coerced and hurting. I only wish I knew to whom to report such crap. But it's not just teaching 14-year-old boys that all girls are "cum hungry sluts "who want double penetration and electric shocks to their vaginas (oh, and the new "waterboarding" theme of nearly drowning women while they "cum" was a real fun one to come across, again three-four clicks from a simple google search.)

Girls, boys and women are clearly hurt and psychologically traumatized first, and then that rape/torture is filmed and marketed around the world. Imagine if millions of men suddenly created a magazine called Abu Gharaib and used real photos of what's going on there and masturbated to it. I really don't give a damn about Playboy, when it's clear the women at least had some say. That's in the realm where we combat the images with education. But the hardcore stuff isn't protected speech in the first place. It's CRIMINAL EVIDENCE.

Remember Dred Scott. Just because Black men aren't someone else's property doesn't mean you have to disagree with property rights, and just because I say that tortured women's bodies aren't someone else's "speech" doesn't mean I don't believe in free speech.

Thanks again, Hedgehog.

[hedgehog]

41. Again, I jsut wanted to stick to the simple point that if we insist that right wing

radio influences people's actions, we look like fools and/or hypocrites if we insist that pornography does not.

From what I gather, porn has moved in recent years from consensual sex acts to stuff that involves (simulated?) coercion. I have to wonder as you do how much porn is actually proof of criminal conduct.

[morgan2]

44. are you insane?

50% of porn is documented crimes? Yes you can find sick shit on the internet, I can find anything in 3 or 4 clicks. That doesn't mean its prevalent. 2 clicks and I can find some young girls eating each others feces. The American porn industry is very large, and policed rather strictly. Anyone selling porn has to keep documentation of the participants name/age/date it was filmed.

[defendandprotect]

252. If you can find anything . . ..

in 3/4 clicks, I think you're making clear that "sick shit" is prevalent on the internet . . .

And, anything that can be found in "2 clicks," I'd suggest is even more prevalent . . .

Now, how many clicks would it take for us to find YOU "eating someone else's feces" on

the internet . . . ?

What would it take for that to occur . . . ?

A million dollars . . . ?

Less . . . ?

Or would it take someone CRIMINALLY intimidating you to perform such an act . . . ?


We have no real knowledge of why these females are subjecting themselves to abusive

and or degrading actions --- but if it's not something you would do willingly . . .

why would they?

[Irreverend IX]

51. 50%?

You're saying 50% of porn is produced non-consensually or otherwise illegally? I'd like to see where you got that statistic. Probably the same place Focus on the Family gets "80% of gays are child molesters" and Dubya gets "99% of Iraqis approve of our actions against terraists." I hope you washed your hand thoroughly before typing that post.

[defendandprotect]

57. It could be 100% . . .how do we know when women all over the world are

forced into sexual slavery ---

with the rise of the right, we also have more of this ---

with the rise of the right you have greater harm to women and children ---

nothing newsy about that!

[Taverner]

173. Wow - find any bolshiveks under our beds while you are making accusations out of your arse?

No, most porn is recycled housewives from the 1990's. And strippers who are looking to pad their resume. And hookers looking to pick up a little extra cash.

But I guess, if they don't agree with your "superior" logic, then it must be non-consensual

:eyes:

[defendandprotect]

253. ...and you know all of them personally and can testify to that . . .

[entanglement]

72. Most porn consumers don't want to hear about the amount of human misery involved in its production

After all, how does one continue to enjoyment from a product of abuse, exploitation and degradation of fellow humans without adopting a posture of utter denial? Much easier to convince oneself that the porn 'artists' are really having a great time of it and it's all great fun as long as 18 USC 2257 is obeyed. Much easier to skirt the myriad unpleasant questions about issues of human rights and dignity, class, gender and race that way.

[seabeyond]

75. as i have found prostitutes just really like sex and all about self satisfaction

for themselves and really giving 20 blow jobs a day to strange, dirty, old, smelly males. no different than being a stockbroker.

it is amazing the delusion mostly males live in to satisfy a want

[EOTE]

107. Should we outlaw garbage men as well?

Because, after all, who in their right mind would want to spend their whole day working with dirty, old smelly trash. In case you weren't aware, most people work because it earns them a paycheck, not because they love their job. In terms of sex workers, some like their job and some don't, but if they're of legal age and they're doing it to make a paycheck, why would you deny them their livelihood? I hate my job, why aren't you trying to rescue me from the terrible conditions in which I work?

[seabeyond]

116. a perfect example that reinforces my post

jeeeezus. cant get much more stupid

[EOTE]

117. So we SHOULD outlaw garbage men then.

Just wanted to make sure I knew where you stood. Just tell me though, where will I get my paycheck once you ban my job because I don't enjoy it? I'll take your non-answer to my last question as an admission that you haven't a fucking clue about which you speak.

[seabeyond]

121. nowhere was prohibiting prostitution mentioned. wtf are you arguing about.

but you do show exactly how a person will ignore reality and tell themselves a totally bogus story in order to continue your stand on a delusional position

[EOTE]

124. Funny, I didn't mention prohibiting prostitution either.

Are you having fun arguing with the voices in your head?

[gaspee]

134. So why don't

You try peddling your ass on the streetcorner if it's just another job and you hate yours so much? Or maybe make some gay porn? Straight porn is hard for men to break into, but you could probably get a gay porn gig pretty easily?

[EOTE]

144. Easy answer to a very stupid question.

If I thought I was attractive enough to peddle my ass on a streetcorner, I'D BE ALL OVER THAT. Seeing as I'm not and it's illegal, I won't be doing that. As for doing gay porn, I'm not gay and I really don't want to have sex with men. I'd find having sex with men even more distasteful than my current job, so I won't be doing that any time soon. Any more stupid questions you'd like me to answer? Perhaps why I haven't applied for any donkey show jobs in South America?

[defendandprotect]

257. ....because you're obviously doing it willingly . . .

that cannot necessarily be assumed of the females appearing in porn ---

or in the international sex trade ---

[defendandprotect]

254. Exactly . . .

and notice that we are still getting no where on the actual question . . .

"why are males 'turned on' by the degradation of females . . . ?"

[Edweird]

293. No, you're clueless and/or in denial.

The prostitute reference is at once classless and unrelated. I am not talking about prostitutes. I have no experience whatsoever with girls that want money for sex. The fetish scene has some unbelievably wild things going on, all consensual, and no "pros".

[gaspee]

132. I always get pissed

At these threads and how many so-called liberals are pro-women-hatred. Gotta have that porn!

[lildreamer316]

212. "Every woman has the right to become herself, and do whatever she needs to do." -Ani DiFranco

FULL quote:
My idea of feminism is self-determination, and it's very open-ended: every woman has the right to become herself, and do whatever she needs to do." ~ Ani DiFranco

[Zookeeper]

184. That is a huge issue for me as I have teenage children!

One of my sons has made some very poor choices recently that has left me resorting to "spy" software, just to try to keep him from totally screwing up his life. As a result, I've seen the free sites you're talking about. It isn't even necessary to go looking for them; they are prominently displayed on video gaming sites. Most of the choices offered DO involve degrading a woman (or women) in one way or another. As a mother and a Feminist, I find this development extremely depressing.

I'm starting to block specific sites. I've made it clear that I don't want him viewing porn on our family computer for many reasons and he has continued to do it. It's time to have that "reality vs. fantasy" discussion with him whether he likes it or not. I feel really sorry for the teenage girls that end up dealing with the boys who have watched this crap.

(To the "free-speech" (porn-lovin') guys out there who feel compelled to attack me: I won't respond. It's like arguing with an alcoholic or a drug-addict in my experience.)

[defendandprotect]

259. Sad, but enlightening post . . .

Many women seem to be waking up to find their husbands engaged in computer porn --
That's just happened to the model Christy Brinkley--!!!

And, many note that what looks like child porn is being tossed into the mix . . .
like we used to see in cigarette advertisements, it may not actually be underaged youth--
just individuals who look young/childish. They're doing this in the hopes of creating
a wider consumer base for child porn! Conditioning porn watchers, in a sense.

As a mother of a son who was a teenager in the 1980's, it was frustrating to try to push
off the increasing male aggressiveness arising in our societies. And that was, of course,
purposefully being pushed. And this most certainly does effect the females they are in
contact with and their relationships. We all understand this very well --- so do those
pushing this crap.

[BalancedGoat]

266. That makes no sense.

"They're doing this in the hopes of creating a wider consumer base for child porn! Conditioning porn watchers, in a sense."

That'd be like Tobacco companies trying to get people to smoke pot; it would serve no purpose. If anything, they're trying to capitalize on the demand for child porn by enticing them with child-like legal models.

[gaspee]

130. I always get pissed

Whenever this topic comes up and the men come out in droves insisting that liking to watch women be raped on film (sometimes extremely violently) is their right and it harms no one. Women choose to be treated that way!

Makes me downright ill and my faith in men gets lowered even further.

[Catch22Dem]

165. Whoa! Put the brakes on, manhater!

Who said anything about enjoying rape??? Show me where I missed that post. I wanna put that fuckin' nutjob on ignore.

[defendandprotect]

260. Stick with us here and help us get this more out into the open . . .

[KoKo]

34. In all my years on DU there are two subjects that will cause rational DU'ers to drown out other

Opinions. One is "AIPAC and the other is "Pornography."

It's useless to bring it up...but I get where you are coming from...just gave up trying to discuss the influence.

Sorry...there's one more...the "Confederate Flag" and why Southerners are Evil. But that one sort of is a given..

[defendandprotect]

58. Don't give up -- keep at it --- all of these subjects require a lot of discussion . . .

[Generic Other]

69. don't forget who was or was not justified dropping the bomb on Hiroshima

Oh and any thread where Ralph Nadar is mentioned...Endless loop discussions...leading to raised voices, irrational responses and ultimately strings of deleted threads!

Hi Koko!

[Hidden Stillness]

291. I Understand Your Attitude

I understand your attitude, and have become depressed and basically hopeless about the hypocrisy and abusiveness of male attitudes about this issue, too. They all agree with each other, that they are not bigoted and hateful, have no sexual problems of any kind, no problems of any kind relating to women, and all is our fault. Note how quickly the porn-lovers' posts turn to vicious abusiveness (that I thought was not allowed on DU)--about how "stupid," "neurotic," "fascist," "hates sex," "hates women," "afraid of emotion," (funny, coming from them), blah blah, and they never face themselves or face what kind of a pattern it is, that women are offended and feel oppressed by it (and it is not because of "nudity," what a phony game), and all the pro-porn messages are between males, ganging up, cutting themselves off, and agreeing with each other.

I have been on threads like this before, going to an effort to assemble study results on percentage of prostitutes and strippers who were sexually abused as children (very high), percentage of divorces filed by women after the male became involved in porn (very high), on and on, and the really hateful males just hate you all the more, and attack all the more hysterically. The same attacks they probably use at home, when things do not go their way--"frigid bitch," etc. Depressing; and you are never going to win, because they hate more than we do here. For women who, all their lives, have listened to male members of their families, singing along to bigoted, anti-woman, abusive male rock and roll or rap lyrics, and looking at you, as if "their group" has now won, again, and "the bitches" are shoved in the shit again, and there is nothing you can do about it but learn the way things now are, to learn what oppression is,and now to be told that we are not even "intelligent" enough--and told by the bigot!--to discern what our life-situation is, that only they know, you realize then that it is hopeless. The "liberal males," as all women learn, are often, when it comes to us, as hateful as the "enemy"'s side.

Near the top of this thread, there was a brief exchange between the male posters MiltonF and lynyrd_skynyrd, that was very honest and open, and was great to read here; I wish it had gone on longer. This is the only type of male I feel any hope for--the ones who actually do not seethe with anger and hatred for women, as so many do who never have to answer for it; but who are willing to face their own lack of understanding (as we all have), and have a discussion. I would keep those males in mind, as the only thing to feel good about on this thread (besides the great fighting-back of the women). Anybody who denies the level of hostility and manipulativeness of the male porn-lover's attitude, should just read the kind of attacks against women, and the abusive, insulting language used, and get a clue. The pornography industry is one male handing over an unwilling woman to another male. That IS the attraction for this type of woman-hater.

"Men have looked on at the destruction of women like dumb oxen on a riverbank, placidly chewing the cud, while the ox-herd drowns before their eyes, not even dimly aware that they are in any way involved in her tragedy."--Edward Carpenter, 19th century Socialist/feminist/homosexual/Christian mystic author, admirer of Walt Whitman, quoted in "The First Sex" by Elizabeth Gould Davis.

A while ago, on DU, there was a really great study of the male/pornographic attitude, called "The Cruel Edge," or something like that. Of course, most will not face themselves, but have already decided that they are blameless, not offensive, etc., and that women are stupid, laughable, etc., etc., but anyone who wants to read a great article can probably still find it on the internet.

[Skittles]

42. hilarious, isn't it n/t

[Bonobo]

45. What constitutes "degradation" is a matter of opinion.

People and cultures would disagree wildly. In other words, the concept is "culture bound".

[defendandprotect]

59. Pornography is propaganda against females . . . you'd have to

be forcing yourself not to see it, or ignoring it --

It is patriarchy's propaganda against females --

but one of the main questions is WHY are men so turned on by degrading females?

[Leeny]

67. It's been going on for centuries

There's a book I read in school called "The Reign of the Phallus" about the establishment of a patriarchy and the subjugation of women throughout history. Maybe because it's been around for so long, we don't "see" it anymore, but that's still what's going on ... that's what pornography IS. I like to make a distinction between pornography and erotica. There's a big difference between the two. I'm okay with erotica, but I believe that pornography is there to keep women down.

Yes, I want to go to work all day, be treated as a professional, then come home and be mommy, then be the cook and housekeeper. And then after all that, be the brainless, drooling, sex-slave to some neanderthal with a big ... opinion of himself ;)

[defendandprotect]

74. I'll have to look for the book ....

Loved the Canadian Supreme Court opinion on this --- it certainly does do harm to women in
every way.

Loved your comments ---

[eridani]

195. What I like is erotica

What you like is porn
What they like is utterly degrading garbage.

[raccoon]

227. Thank you!

"I like to make a distinction between pornography and erotica. There's a big difference between the two. "

[masmdu]

87. Uh...what about GAY porn?

[Scout]

94. start a fucking thread about it for godsakes n/t

[masmdu]

102. Why? Poster says Porn is degrading to Women But wont consider Gay Porn...which isn't degrading to w

women

[masmdu]

103. OP "Pornography is about males "getting off" on the degradation of females . . ." Not Gay porn

[truebrit71]

95. Dunno...when did you stop beating your wife?

Talk about a loaded assumption... :eyes:

[scheming daemons]

101. Why won't you answer the question about gay porn?

How is gay pron "propaganda against females"?


Please answer....

[eridani]

194. You are making a strictly rightwing argument here

Why not leave repeating statements over and over as if they are true to them?

[Lorien]

64. I admit, I've never really watched porn

so I just Googled "porn" and clicked on the first few sites. Kinda gross, but really it was nothing more then two (or sometimes three) people fucking and everyone seemed to be enjoying themselves. I didn't think that what I saw was more degrading to one sex than to the other (both were using filthy language in one video). But that's just a small sampling. I don't think that normal sexual activity-which can sometimes mean one person (of either gender) being dominated by the other-is degrading to anyone. Rape is another matter entirely; that's not "sex", it's a violent crime.

[defendandprotect]

261. Patriarchy has been in control of culture everywhere .....

so it's quite clear who's being degraded and who's doing the degrading . . .

If what people are describing here even on limited terms isn't enough to make you

admit that porn is degrading to females, what would?

[BalancedGoat]

267. As far as I can tell...

... nobody here is denying that there is some porn out there that is degrading. What people here are taking issue with is your blanket statement that all porn is degrading and your offensive conclusion that any of the male respondents who watch porn enjoy watching females be degraded.

[seabeyond]

275. ALL porn objectifies. which dehumanizes the female to body parts

the people performing have to separate from self, those that enjoy have to not connect with the person.

we all know the result of dehumanizing parts of society. we watched them do the same with iraqi's. they had to do that in order to blatantly murder the innocent without question. they had to do that to torture and do the ugliest that they do. they have to do that with our women in our culture today in this society.

once dehumanizing has happened so much more comes from that. look around you and you will see evidence all around. and not just in the porn world. all over culture ly to condition both our male and female. then all can be little ole robots to be lead by the nose, just say boob, or anything else to push the button to sell. and you guys and a lot of gals are just allowing yourselves to be fucked as you feel so empowered.

or continue to ignore so you can continue the dehumanizing cause seeing naked women is just so much more important than seeing someone as a person. wouldn't be fun at all to say the nastiest and ugliest and raunchiest about the female a man is jacking off to if you actually saw the female as a person

BUT even admitting that there is degrading porn out there of gang rapes and all that men are enjoying. fucking children. all kinds of the creepist..... then really

why are people on anyones ass if women say... you know, think it is a bunch of shit. i think there is validity for women to actually be offended, bothered or disgusted by it.

we dont get that though. it is that we have sexual problems, prudes, fundies, or some other remark to what

fuckin degrade.

isn't that wonderful how porn loving men have learned to degrade even the women not participating in porn. use degrading as a weapon against women

[Leeny]

279. Porn IS degrading

Pornographic comes from the route word "per" which has to do with selling. We buy and sell objects, not human beings, at least not in this country, legally, for the last century. Women are not objects to be exploited and sold through pornography.

Now, Erotica comes from the word Eros meaning love, or if you prefer the God of Love Eros. It is about human beings - man, woman, gay, straight, who cares - loving each other through intimate relations and sex.

There is a difference.

[MrBadExample]

282. What?

> Pornographic comes from the route word "per" which has to do with selling.

Um...no, it doesn't. It comes from two Greek roots--pórné, "prostitute", and graphos, "writing"--which literally mean "writing about prostitutes". The Indo-European root of "prostitute" does relate to selling, yes, but "pornography" doesn't directly derive from it.

(I wasn't going to take part in this thread, but I'm too anal to let incorrect etymologies by.)

[Leeny]

294. Thanks, seriously

I looked at the American Heritage Dictionary and found "per", and I forgot to include that it talked about prostitution. Been a while since college, I hope I was using the Indo-European word root index correctly. Where did you find that information? I'm impressed.
:think:

[defendandprotect]

280. You're still no closer to . . .

answering WHY males are "turned on" by degradation of females --

Limit your response to the "some porn" that you're admitting is degrading ---

Let's hear your opinion on that ---

[Occam Bandage]

46. For the same reasons you'll find the opposite opinions on Free Republic.

[Edweird]

48. It comes down to the same thing: Take our rights away for our own "protection"

and it's eerily similar at the core, despite what each side may claim.

[defendandprotect]

60. Pornography has to be controlled by enlightenment . . .

discussion and debate --- the undesirability of it has to be made clear and the harm

it does to females in our society ---

PLUS we have to direct more attention to the males who are "turned on" by the

degradation of females ---

[Indenturedebtor]

86. You have yet to even put forward a reasonable argument that justifies your "turned on by the degrada

degradation of females" statement.

Just because sex is used as a weapon by some doesn't mean that it is a weapon for all. Hell some women use sex to degrade and control men. Does that mean that all sex is inherently degrading/controlling? I don't think so.

[defendandprotect]

112. Yeah . . .it's women's fault actually, and the industry is about degrading men . . . !!!

:rofl:

[Indenturedebtor]

120. Now you're avoiding the question and putting words in my mouth...

If I really need to I can go into how some women use sex to degrade men... as a matter of fact an argument could be made regarding some statements in this thread.

The entire porn industy is not about degrading women. Unfortunately a lot of porn does. A lot of it is more concerned with appreciating naked women. Stop broadbrushing all porn and all men, or even all men who look at porn.

Or I could just use the same sort of tactic and suggest that you think all women should have to wear a burkha. Why do you hate women!!!!! :grr:

[Catch22Dem]

160. You know damn well that's not what the poster said

I'm learning about you as we go though and I don't expect a rational answer.

[Edweird]

154. No amount of "enlightenment" will quell the human need for sex. Period.

Your imagined 'superiority' may just be the result of your own sexual hang ups that you are inflicting on the rest of us. There is a lot of porn I personally don't find exciting, so I don't watch it.

Another thing to consider is that not every woman has the same sexual interests and appetite as you. Just because YOU find it distasteful or unpleasant doesn't mean EVERY woman out there does. There are women I know that ENJOY and actively SEEK OUT acts you would surely find reprehensible and degrading. (Care to guess how I know?) But no one asked you. The sexual universe is far bigger than your personal view of it.

[defendandprotect]

262. And you think that porn is "sex" . . .???

We all understand the human need for sexual expression ---

however, anyone who thinks that porn is "sex" is confused not only about

human sexuality, but human contact and relationships, as well . . .

and you suggest that it's WE who have "sexual hang-up's" . . ??


The quest for enlightenment is to bring the issue of PORN out into the open -- not

to "quell the human need for sex."

:eyes:

[Edweird]

47. So many are lining up to give their constitutional rights away out of fear, just like the RW.

It's sad.

[yardwork]

50. Very interesting point.

Personally, I think that demeaning communication degrades culture, but that's just me.

However, I don't think that many folks believe that Jim Adkisson became a mass murderer just because he listened to right wing commentators. He got a lot of reinforcement. Saturation. Corporate-owned media saturation of hateful attitudes.

That raises the question - how much of our culture is affected by corporate-owned media saturation of demeaning attitudes toward women? Quite a bit, I'd say. We live in a patriarchal, corporatist, materialistic, homophobic, racist society. It's the overall barrage of those messages that sends people like Adkisson on their missions from hell.

[eridani]

198. So, why is the sex-specific stuff worse than all the other corporate crapola? n/t

[Snarkturian Clone]

61. Because most Duers are fickle and inconsistent NT

[noamnety]

62. Interesting question, considering

his actions seem to have been fueled by a whopping dose of misogyny, judging by it being her former church and her having a protection order against him for threatening to blow her brains out.

[RB TexLa]

63. Because there are some here who want to make our enemies all-powerful

[MsTryska]

70. I'm gonna have to admit

porn has an influence on my actions.


just sayin'.

[JVS]

122. hey hey!

What influence?

[MsTryska]

177. hee...

the kind of influence that shouldn't be shared with polite company. and it gives me ideas. bad bad ideas.

[JVS]

207. Polite company? This is GD. Who is polite here?

;-)

[ThoughtCriminal]

73. Liberals and Conservative seem to have different views

on what "Pornography" is. To a conservative, images of two adults making love, or even a naked human may be considered "Pornographic". Ashcroft was freaked out by a topless statue!

To most liberals, I think the definition has to cross a line into non-consensual, violence or children.

[Clark2008]

79. I'm not a hypocrite - and I'm a defender of the First Amendment -

but I think they're both equally vile.

[gatorboy]

80. Both statements can't be true?

There is porn that degrades women and Adkisson's appetite for right wing propaganda was motivating.

[Fox Mulder]

90. Porn degrades men just as much as women.

Some of it does, anyways.

[defendandprotect]

263. ....they just haven't figured that out yet . . . !!!

[BlooInBloo]

96. Too many women disagree with that thesis for it to be taken as an article of faith....

(Note that I myself took no stand on the question.)

[La Lioness Priyanka]

98. do you think all books caused jim d adkisson to commit murder? or specific books?

lumping all porn in one category is stupid.

[flvegan]

104. I think pornography that degrades women CAN influence

people's actions or how they behave towards women. Depends on the person watching it. I don't know if Adkisson specifically did what he did because of RW radio/tv. However, if he had a hatred of liberals, etc and did listen to some of the more negative RW talking heads, they might have influenced. Not being Adkisson, I have no idea.

[LeftyMom]

133. Both arguments are stupid.

Hate radio appeals to people who hate. BDSM porn appeals to people who are into BDSM. Neither one magically changes people's personalities, which are long established before either has any influence.

[travelingtypist]

136. I think of porn like I think about abortion.

If you don't like abortion, don't have one.

If you don't like porn, don't look at it.

If someone is forced to participate, that's different. Consenting
adults can do whatever they want.

Yeah, I'm a girl, a card-carrying feminist. And I watch porn. So
what?

[TroglodyteScholar]

149. What TURNS YOU ON about degrading women?

You clearly need to be protected from your own hateful desires.

:sarcasm:

[defendandprotect]

264. Exactly . . . !!!!

[Fox Mulder]

192. I totally agree.

[lildreamer316]

213. Well said! n/t

[jberryhill]

138. Crazy People Will Do Crazy Things For Any Reason

Did being an environmentalist cause the Unabomber to do what he did?

Sociopaths will latch onto anything to do whatever it is they are wont to do.

The Son of Sam killer got his instructions from the neighbor's dog.

[the other one]

140. What kind of porn degrades women?

Just so I know. I have watched tons of porn, and to me all it is, is people having sex. No, people ACTING like they are having sex. So what type of porn is degrading? Oral? Anal? Fetish? Bondage? Different stroking for different focking.

I am quite sure that porn does change male attitudes towards women. Porn makes men objectify women, but the effect is that men end up alone and masturbating rather than approaching real women. Seriously, since the porn became mainstream, violent crime towards women has dropped every year. That sounds like a good thing. Horny men watching actors do things they never will, gaining release and going to sleep.

Where is the degradation? Man I hate to say it, but someone should get a life. Its probably me for answering your inane charges.

[Taverner]

166. Yep. Agree with you 100%

[DailyGrind51]

142. Thom Hartmann talked about how "Hate Radio" was used in Rwanda

to inspire Hutus to kill Tutsis. The U.S. War Department produced a series of films titled "Why We Fight" to inspire pro-war fervor for WWII. Dr. Paul Jozef Goebbels also produced "The Eternal Jew" to justify German anti-Semitism. Media motivates!

Regarding pornography, why do you think couples view it before they "do it"?;-)

[defendandprotect]

265. Yeah . . . I was listening to him when he mentioned that . . . fascinating!!!

Evidently, well recognized that this happened ---

Notice, the right wing is very grateful to Rush for his propaganda ---

Look what Newt brought about in '94 . . .

Look what Nazis did with propaganda ---

"Rats running in the streets" propaganda vs Jews led to the Jewish Holocaust in Germany ---

It isn't difficult to see that this porn industry is just that ---

propaganda against females to deny them equality ---


As for the couples, my guess is that marriage and over exposure to one another leads to

boredom . . .

of course, we also have the females who want to be "in" with the boys and won't be able

to resist being degraded by watching it ---

and, males who want to degrade the female they're with by watching something absive with

their partner.

[Prophet 451]

145. bad analogy

First off, a goodly portion of porn isn't degrading to women (and why do people who bring this up always ignore the massive market in gay porn). Granted, there's some stuff out there which is degrading, not arguing with that, but I doubt it's the majority and there has never been any actual evidence that viewing porn, even in large quantities, has an effect on one's behaviour.

Secondly, it's a different process (at least, with printed porn). The mind processes images differently than it does sounds, that's obvious but there's also a different cognitive process going on. Reading (even if just looking at pictures) is an active process which the mind must be engaged on, listening is a passive process which bypasses much of the mind's safeguards. Counter-intuitive, I know, but true.

Thirdly, not all of us have jumped to the conclusion that this man's actions were the result of right-wing pundits, we're waiting for the details.

[defendandprotect]

268. You may have missed this fact, but none of that is real . . . ???

Secondly, it's a different process (at least, with printed porn). The mind processes images differently than it does sounds, that's obvious but there's also a different cognitive process going on. Reading (even if just looking at pictures) is an active process which the mind must be engaged on, listening is a passive process which bypasses much of the mind's safeguards. Counter-intuitive, I know, but true.

i.e., it isn't "sex" and it isn't a relationship with a living female ---

Meanwhile ..

Very clearly, porn is often violent and most often degrading to the female ---

And, very clearly, there is a connection between porn and violence because rapists

have told us so -- and because we understand that "violence" is used -- especially

themes which ridicule or debase females -- by the military, as well, to train males

to engage in brutal thinking and brutal behavior.

Further, violence, in general, is used by the military in "training" films to move

soldiers to violence. And when that happens we also know that this leads to increasing

levels of domestic violence on military bases --- including murder.


So there's very little question as to whether Propaganda/Violence are used to teach

males -- the answer is "YES" --- and males are quite succeptible to it.

[Prophet 451]

270. No, it isn't sex

Ok, first off, you say porn is often violent. Which porn are you looking at? Granted, the violent stuff is out there, I'm not disputing that but I really doubt it's the majority. Secondly, you have yet to show that it is degrading to women (and, as anti-porn people always do, you are ignoring the massive market in gay porn). No-one has ever been able to produce actual evidence of this degradation. That violent porn affects behaviour, probably but that porn in general (not the industry, which I agree needs more regulation) degrades women (ignoring the gay porn market again), the evidence is inconclusive at very, very best.

Yes, rapists tell us that there is a connection between porn and violence. They'd tell us there was a connection between rape and Disneyland if it let them deflect blame. The psychology of violent criminals is quite complex, you might want to research it (I can provide some suggestions if you're interested) and one thing that comes through over and over is the need to shift blame, to make themselves less responsible.

The fact is, the majority of men will see porn at some point and the majority of men do not harm women.

[2008]

150. (quietly tiptoes backward out of this thread)

(looks around to see if anyone saw me enter or leave)

(walks away quickly)

[insleeforprez]

157. From an economics standpoint...

Porn potentially deviates from a perfect economic transaction in a few ways. If one assumes that every cost is solely felt by the viewer and the "performer," then every performer and viewer will only engage in the transaction of pornography if it's worth the cost,
and we can all ignore it.

However, that "if" is a large if. If, as some in this thread claim, watching pornography leads to bad outcomes for other people (rape, degradation, etc) that are NOT part of the transaction, then pornography will be consumed more than the optimal.

Also, market economics assumes freedom of movement. If a woman (or a man) feels "trapped" in the porn industry, or if the viewer is "addicted," then porn will also likely be overconsumed.

So, the question is over these last two points. Does porn lead to rape? Is there freedom of movement in the porn industry?

Side note: As for gay porn, I'm pretty confident that most does not degrade "bottoms." I would say that is the result of the necessarily egalitarian nature of most same-sex relationships. True, there are people who prefer to dominate in the gay community, but there seem to be just as many that wish to be submissive.

[defendandprotect]

269. There's another economic complication here . . .

cable companies are making a fortune on porn --- they're pushing it ---
and as I mentioned elsewhere, "child" porn --- in an attempt to create
a wider market for it --- Comcast was reported to have made $500 million
which I heard three years or so ago. I don't know what the figures are now.

In my opinion, the male isn't only abused by the very degrading activity in
which he is participating -- but also by the efforts to addict him --
even to make him increasingly immune to "child" porn.

Needless to say, Comcast has --- beyond the industry itself --- a reason to
push porn and to become dependent upon this degrading exploitation of females.

The question of how freely the female participates, as you pointed out, remains
an open question -- very difficult to say. Except males seemingly actually believe
that females will willing engage in degrading activities that they, themselves,
obviously wouldn't permit themselves to be subjected to.

As I've also said elsewhere, males are very sensitive to their own ridicule ---
or the ridicule of any male in their group. Therefore, claims that they don't
quite understand what's going on with porn are either attempts to delude themselves
as to the reality of what they're participating in or simply disingenous alibing.

What we're being told to believe is that women willingly engage in self-degradation.
We also understand that "market" influences generally have short-changed females and
victimized them --- and in many ways still do with women making 75% of what males make.

As for the question of how much of this leads to increasing aggression against women,
increasing prejudices against women, and even domestic violence and rape, I think
we have to consider how effective propaganda is ---



Very clearly, porn is often violent and most often degrading to the female ---

And, very clearly, there is a connection between porn and violence because rapists

have told us so -- and because we understand that "violence" is used -- especially

themes which ridicule or debase females -- by the military, as well, to train males

to engage in brutal thinking and brutal behavior.

Further, violence, in general, is used by the military in "training" films to move

soldiers to violence. And when that happens we also know that this leads to increasing

levels of domestic violence on military bases --- including murder.


So there's very little question as to whether Propaganda/Violence are used to teach

males -- the answer is "YES" --- and males are quite succeptible to it.

[hyphenate]

158. I'm coming into this discussion a little late

and haven't read all the responses, so this might be repetitive. However, this is my opinion of the answer to your question.

Yes, BOTH of these things can influence people, just as many other things do. You can become afflicted with fundie fanaticism if you stick around wrong-winged religious nuts too long, you can learn something from teachers if they lecture to you long enough, you can get better at a hobby if you practice at it for awhile, and you certainly can become inured to violence if you are desensitized to it from repeated exposure. The effects of anything can be felt for good or bad if there is repeated subjection to it.

Anything can have cause and effect, whether it's something desirous or something anathema. And whether we like it or not, some people are affected far more seriously than others, especially those who might already have a personality disorder which makes them more sensitive to content which is already negative.

Back when I was growing up (the 60s), there was significant violence on TV. Some critics kept saying that young people were being affected by all that "violence" and that things were getting out of hand. The solution? Make TV violence even MORE appalling, with blood, gore and all kinds of juicy guts. Yeah--that's what happened. The result? The violence level in the real world got far worse, far more difficult to contain. I don't think some people even looked at the world around them, with the war in Vietnam and seeing veterans coming home with PTSD, or the assassinations of both Bobby and John Kennedy, Martin Luther King, or several very famous murders and serial killings. Some people are so fucking blind to the real world, and look for their own slanted reasons to explain things. Conservatives and religious fanatics all wanted to blame something they hated for societal ills, instead of coming to the truer conclusion that perhaps it was the stick up their own asses which was mitigating circumstances even more than normal.

The thing is, if we don't give everyone their 1st amendment rights and dues, we're going to find those rights gone bye-bye. We've already seen it in this debacle known as the Bush administration, and some of us are appalled by the changes done to this country in the name of "security." Yeah, it boils down to this: there are unstable people out here in the world for whom any kind of lengthy exposure to ANYTHING will affect them, and horribly. But for the rest of us, hopefully the other 99% of us, nothing is going to make us into psychotics or sociopaths, regardless of how much exposure we have to something nasty.

Pornography is one of those things which the wrong-wingers constantly want to remove from the social environment. If it's of consenting adults, with consenting adults, reasons for trying to eradicate it are signs of intolerance and tightly-wound people. Some people enjoy the fantasies they see, and will sometimes incorporate some of the more pleasurable things they see into their own lives. It doesn't harm anyone if all participants are mature enough and consenting. It doesn't lead to rape, because rape is a crime of violence and control, and the rapists overpower their victims in ways that most people would never do. Those with normal proclivities are unlikely to become rapists overnight, nor are they suddenly likely to develop personality disorders such as pedophilia or other psychosexual behaviors.

OTOH, shock jocks, especially those with marked intolerances for people who are "different" than their own brand of "normality" are repeating memes day after day to people, and can definitely make many people more susceptible to the tirades they listen to. And while this is true of many people, of any political persuasion, the listeners of such crap as Limbaugh get fed a steady diet of hate and blatant mischaracterizations of those who are not adherents of the "principles" Limbaugh and others of his ilk espouse. It's the same kind of stuff that worked in pre-WWII Germany. Lulled into a false sense of "superiority," people will do anything after being sucked into someone's demented vision.

We all here (at DU) are intelligent enough to know the difference between reality and fantasy (at least I hope so!), but for those who are not, it's not up to us to try and police people who have yet to show signs of instability. That would be like arresting someone for murder while the potential "victim" is alive and well--we've learned that until some crime is committed, we can't just arrest someone for doing it. All we can hope is that we spot the signs of mental illness in order to help those afflicted.

Nevertheless, outside influences are many and myriad. Whether they are good or bad is not for any of us to judge, except for ourselves. It can be frustrating at times, but until we can prove that something is filled with malice (like wrong-winged shock jocks) or simply entertainment (adult films), we have to simply accept that all of these things fall under First Amendment rights.

[bamacrat]

159. The main downside to porn is the image of an appealing woman changes for those who view it alot.

Normal, pretty women who have nice bodies are viewed as somewhat boring or plain compared with the multitude of beautiful women with perfect bodies in porn. I think porn is good in moderation, but it can make you start to view any woman not porn worthy isnt that attractive. This is obviously stupid since there are beautiful smart great women who arent "porn worthy" who are way better than the others. Thats why amateur porn is the way to go, real looking people, no airbrushed asses or perfectly lit boobs.

[Taverner]

164. Because Pornography, by its very definition, is fantasy

Although the RW talking heads live in a world of fantasy, does not mean their words only affect fantasy.

Porn, on the other hand, is ONLY fantasy.

[Writer]

174. Because people are incredibly elitist when it comes to media effects research.

They believe that the media affect other people, but not THEM. It's always a problem for society, but not for him or her individually.

People are hypocrites when it comes to assessing the media.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

244. True. nt

[readmoreoften]

179. Wait? There's free pornography on car radios in Tennessee?

How does that work?

[lutefisk]

187. The ads for Oreck Vacuum Cleaners and Gold Bond Medicated Powder

...keep it from being too arousing, though.

[ElboRuum]

188. Shit. No popcorn left.

:evilgrin:

[Danger Mouse]

190. Oh man. What a wreck.

[Withywindle]

191. I know, right?

I'm gonna go read some porn. Easier to follow.

[HughBeaumont]

210. Yeah. This bullshit was productive, wasn't it?

I'm now a "so-called liberal male". Astonishing.

[Danger Mouse]

233. What, because you didn't call porn the most evil thing ever in the history of stuff?

[HughBeaumont]

255. Well, I mean . . .Isn't it?

It's rape on film. All of it. Every one of those poor actresses are drugged and forced at gunpoint to be dumpster bottoms by rotten cockcentric males. It should all be burnt in every city square.

Come to think of it, why does every male thought rotate around sex? When a woman walks past a male, you just KNOW he's already visualizing her in 10 different positions! Why don't they just STOP looking at women? Attraction should just happen naturally. Porn causes men to see women as nothing but whacking material.

Heavy, bleeding, gushing, pulsating :sarcasm: , in case it needs to be said.

[Firespirit]

196. It's all degrading.

No unconvincing backbends here. It is all degrading because the very concept of needing a fuckbuddy/partner/fling/mate/whatever is degrading. It implies that no one is a complete person without having someone else who stimulates their genitals. And pornography reduces humans to being bodies, rather than minds. It dehumanizes everyone.

[madeline_con]

200. I think it all depends on the porn/RW commentator and the

individual who views/listens.

I do believe that SOME porn might foment violence or degrade women, just as SOME RW idiots with radio shows cause the unhinged to go off the deep end.

[otherlander]

201. I'm just going to throw this out there:

Hentai is fun.

:hide:

[otherlander]

220. FUN FUN FUN FUN FUN!!!!11

:bounce:

[Deja Q]

248. So is origami, but nobody is out there decrying IT IS 'DEGRADING CRUELTY TO PAPER! '

Yet.

[otherlander]

277. Hmmm... what about

hentai oragami? Paper people doin' it in shoeboxes?
:rofl:

[booley]

203. Porn has no pretensions of reality

No friend I have know who has worked in pizza delivery ever went a house without his pants nor expected to be greeted by a buxom woman who wanted to pay in sex.

However, the right has for years said that Liberals (as in anyone who doesn't agree with them) wants to destroy the country, that Liberals laugh when they hear about American soldiers dying, that we are as bad as Al Queda.

When called on it they sometimes make some half assed claim they were only joking. Or they don't.

Sorry but comparing porn fantasy to the right painting Liberals as enemies of the state are not comparable.

[krispos42]

205. Dreamcrusher!

:cry: :cry: :cry:




At least the orgasms are real, right?










:hide:
:rofl:

[JVS]

208. I knew a guy who worked in a Pizza shop for the better part of a decade.

I think he was planning on owning his own shop soon. Then he fucked the shop owner's wife and got fired. The legends do come true sometimes.

[blogslut]

206. Adkisson did what he did because he was at the end of his rope

As for the porn crap. Whatever.

[comtec]

211. I'd say the major difference between porn and this whack job is time...

We spend, actually, a very teeny, tiny (Rachel Maddow does this sound byte SO much better) tiiiiny percentage of our time either having sex and/or watching porn.
Personally I turn off porn that is degrading to the woman.
I like porn where there is equal interest.
I rather enjoy watching porn with my wife, who like some interesting stuff.
Being Bi, I've also seen gay porn, and there is still a sub-dom relationship as you would see in straight porn - sometimes more accented, some times less.
but Overall we're still talking about an hour or two a WEEK, TOPS!

Now... hate-talk radio, that's hate all the time!
24x7, hate when you wake up, hate at breakfast, hate at work, hate when you come home, hate before you goto bed!

You really can NOT compare the impact of they two.
Maybe if there was degrading porn on 24x7, all the time, everywhere you went, turned on the tv, radio, etc, posters, Email, yeah OK I will grant that's likely to have an effect on how men view women. Me? I LOVE strong, independent women, who are comfortable with their sexuality - L O V E THEM!!!!!
I
'm not submissive either, I really enjoy mutual enjoyment in sex, as does my wife.
I think, honestly, like so many others have tried to point out, is that YOU are the one with the disturbing sense of what sex and porn are.

I think what REALLY affects how men view women...


are you ready?


I know this is a REALLY hard concept for you to grasp...


but here it is...


what shapes MOST men's view of women...







is....

WOMEN!

[lildreamer316]

214. I think I love you.

In a platonic sense, of course! ;)
:headbang:

[comtec]

216. *blush*

thanks :)
;)

[blogslut]

217. Okay, I posted in the wrong place too

I need a nap.

[lildreamer316]

215. (Resident DU Stripper wanders into thread, screams, leaves quickly. Not this AGAIN!) n/t

[blogslut]

218. I hear ya

I.TRY.TO.STAY.OUT.

But sometimes these threads get so far blown, well...

Sigh

[DS1]

221. Lots of fucking experts in this thread

just making shit up on the fly. It's the worst of DU, in here.


Pun intended.

[KansDem]

241. Let's not confuse "porn" with "eroticism"

There is a difference, you know...

[Kitty Herder]

245. This is a subject I usually try to avoid. But....

I'm going to say this. And this is just my personal opinion, based on my feelings and experiences. I'm not saying it's universal. Porn, all porn, makes me feel degraded and hated. It makes me feel exactly like I've been spat upon. It's a dead turn-off. Obviously, I can't speak for all women. Many like it. I don't understand that, but to each their own.

If I find that a man is really into porn, he immediately becomes unattractive to me. In the past, I have gotten involved with avid porn consumers, because they seemed like nice men in other ways, and I came to regret it. They were disrespectful to me once we got involved and they no longer felt the need to impress me. They were terrible in bed, very selfish. I assume their lousy bedroom skills could be attributed to thinking women actually enjoy being treated as nothing but receptacles for sperm, a near universal theme in porn.

Obviously, not all men who watch too much porn are assholes. But my experience has conditioned me to respond negatively to them. I'm sure I'm not the only woman who avoids avid porn watchers.

[Lilith Velkor]

250. This thread needs some Velvet Underground

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WJP_CRBi47U

:smoke:

[HughBeaumont]

258. And Mike Nesmith . . .

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dRWTz3zY1WY

[unapatriciated]

276. Or "Drop Your Pants" with the Family Guy

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3szNSSyyIgc

[Marr]

286. Huh? I'll admit freely that pornography influences peoples' actions.

It makes them want to get it on. Many couples use pornography in that way. I won't agree that all pornography degrades women and encourages men to treat women disrespectfully, however.

And really, if you can't tell the difference between a legion of radio personalities demonizing all non-fascists and images of people fucking, I don't know how to help you.

[MrScorpio]

298. Sexual perversion can exist outside of porn

All porn can go away in an instant, and you'd still have the perverts to deal with