Eastern Europe's Roma: 'Tacit Apartheid' for Gypsies

[bos1]

Interesting article

http://www.businessweek.com/globalbiz/content/jul2008/gb20080728_953451.htm?chan=globalbiz_europe+index+page_top+stories

All too often in Central Europe the desperation of the region's Romani population remains shamefully removed from public scrutiny in ghettos hidden far outside capitals such as Prague or Bratislava.

But travel south through the Balkans to Podgorica, where near-toddlers clutch at the arms of tourists and beg for change, or Sarajevo, where shrouded, frail Romani women circulate with their children—hands extended—through the cafes in the Turkish Old Town. This screams the despair of joblessness, poverty, and illness rampant among Central and Eastern Europe's approximately 4 million Roma. The same despair countries such as the Czech Republic try to marginalize—if not cloak—through what one Prague-based human rights worker calls "tacit apartheid."

The near total societal exclusion of Roma—often referred to as Gypsies—in Western and Eastern Europe has received much attention recently, most notably from the "Decade of Roma Inclusion" initiative launched by nine central and southeast European governments in 2005 to foster integration. Yet, as any traveler through the Balkans would easily see, Roma are hanging on the desperate margins. Furthermore, Italy's recent decision to begin fingerprinting Roma after protests earlier this year reveals the depth of subterranean anti-Roma sentiment in Europe.

Given the considerable attention, and the billions of euros in European Union aid money at the "Decade of Roma Inclusion's" disposal, why so little progress? It's not a lack of ideas or funding, say Roma integration experts. It's not even that Roma are work shy, an oft-espoused theory among inclusion skeptics. No, experts say, the problem is weak political will.

[enid602]

1. not just Eastern Europe

I've seen whole fields of cardboard shacks on the outskirts of Madrid; that is where the gypsie population lives there.

[comtec]

3. The Spanish are unforgivably evil to the gypsies (OK they're just plain evil)

My dog started out life as a gypsy dog, but the police came and raided the camp, burning it to the ground.
He ended up with my in laws who rescue dogs and cats from the Spanish (you really have to see those animals to believe what they do to pets). he was a couple months at the time... he also had part of his tail hacked off, so i have little love for any of them.

He was very skittish for a long time anyone touching his tail. He's of course good now, just 5 years old, loving, cute, and nice to have around. he's my Guapo :)

[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

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[High Plains]

4. European racism toward the Roma...

I've seen it pop up among more than a few otherwise progressive Europeans I've talked to. Really just hideous bigotry. They could have been American racists talking about those lazy, thieving, shiftless n***ers.

[bos1]

5. Yes it is really strange.

When a lot of Europeans talked of Gypsies, it sounds like American racist speech from 50 years back

[ceile]

6. Heard a story on Latino USA on Friday

about how 2 young Gypsy girls were found drown on a popular beach and nobody cared. They just pulled them out of the water and went on w/ their day at the beach. She (Maria Hinojosa, the host) went on to wonder "What if that happened here? W/ Hispanic immigrants? Would we turn a blind eye?" Very powerful story. Heart breaking.

eta: Latino USA is an NPR program

[MsTryska]

8. Y'all have to understand Romani culture too....

It's based on being outside of the system and not mingling with Gadje (non-gypsy).

That means not eatign with them, not accepting anythign that could then be seen as being beholden.

It's nice that the Europeans want them to be included, but The Romani don't necessarily want that.

It's double-edged sword tho - yes there's lots of racism and mishandling of Romani, yet at the same time The Rom are very much against being assimilated.

[Chulanowa]

9. Assimilation is conquest

Assimilation says " you become like us."

Integration is a different thing. It says, "You and I are equals"

Governments tend to use "integration" where they mean "assimilation" - much as the case with the US and its Natives - or increasingly, Hispanics and Muslims.

[MsTryska]

11. That's it exactly

And the Rom don't play that.

And as far as the poverty people see - in a way that's an act. The Rom are hustlers 9and that's not a bad thing) they make their own way, and definitely prefer to be underestimated. if they showed their true wealth, it would be an even larger target ontheir backs.

[bos1]

15. Your message is wrong and meanspirited

Roma poverty is not an "act", it is a widespread reality due to incredible prejudice and discrimination. A lot of Roma who make it to places like the US and England do very well because they are seen as a person first.

Here is a good example

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-557355/Roma-gipsy-fled-Czech-Republic-new-face-British-policing.html

Roma gipsy who fled Czech Republic is the new face of British policing

In a city affected more than most by Eastern European immigration, a policeman's lot is not a simple one.

But 27-year-old Petr Torak finds he has fewer communication problems than most.

He is a Roma gipsy from the Czech Republic, who speaks five languages ? in other words, the new face of policing in multi-cultural Britain.

Mr Torak, 27, a community support officer in Peterborough, will become a fully-fledged policeman in August.

He said: "I absolutely love my job. It is what I always wanted to do and it means I can give something back to the country that has given me and my family so much."

[MsTryska]

18. I'm not being mean-spirited at all....

I've got no problem with a good hustle - I put no moral wieght to it, altho you might.

As for Mr. Torka - i applaud him, but i'm sure his people are conflicted on his choice to integrate/assimilate. particularly by joining the police.

incidentally the UK has a history of being not so kind to travellers. I wonder if there are travellers on the police force as well.

[bos1]

31. Okay fine, but still, the poverty as just an act statement

was very ill-advised, considering the extreme levels of discrimination in Eastern Europe.

[MsTryska]

32. trust em in some cases

Poverty as an act is much better than showing your wealth. Especially if you are Gypsy in Eastern Europe.

[bos1]

33. Before you state any more ugliness about Gypsies in Eastern Europe

please let us know your experience with Gypsies in Eastern Europe.

[Chulanowa]

20. No, they really are that poor

Might be quite a few who have it made - but they're not the ones living in shantytowns sending their kids out to beg for food.

Don't buy into the romanticism - that's no different from buying into bigotry.

[MsTryska]

23. And i would caution you not to buy into

the romanticism as well.

I'm not denying Rom have a different standard of living - what you may call "poor", but don't let it deceive you. understand the culture first before making judgement calls.

[Chulanowa]

30. I'm certainly not

All people want steady food, shelter, water, and protection from harm. ALL people. Those who lack these basics - any one or a combination of - are impoverished. Poor.

All people deserve these things. Of some individuals want to consciously deny themselves these basics, good for them, but the option needs to be present for them still. Don't give me this "They choose to be poor, it's their culture" stuff - that sort if thinking is why Indian Reservations are, bar none, the poorest places in the nation - "Oh, but they feel close to the land and want to live their traditional ways! Such as scurvy, meth abuse, and political destitution!"

[Heidi]

10. Parts of Europe do _not_ want them included.

The treatment of Roma in Switzerland has been shameful; we live in the southern part of Switzerland, in an Italian-speaking canton five minutes north of the Italian border so, in our region especially, Roma are treated horribly. But it's a national attitude, too: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/2293421.stm

And in Italy: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=3593347

[MsTryska]

12. I don't deny that

as i said - it's a double-edged sword.

the Rom don't want to be assimilated and the Eropeans don't want them period.

[Heidi]

13. I think it's fine that they don't want to be assimilated.

I don't blame them. My problem is with the hypocrites here (and in other countries, too) who cling to their own, unique regional cultures but are intent on either ostracizing the Roma culture or intent on assimilating them.

A lot of the problem here, I think, is that the only Roma people many in our state have ever met were Roma women asking for money in the parking lot of the grocery store. I've even heard my own mother-in-law say, "It's a shame that these women are out here begging while their men do nothing." A large part of the anti-Roma fervor is sexist and cultural bias, in my opinion. What does it hurt me to politely say "No" to someone asking for money? How does saying "No" require a judgment about how a family makes its living?

I know I'm probably preaching to the choir here, but bigotry burns me up.

[MsTryska]

14. yeah - i am right there with you.

There's no need to for hatred, when you can simply say no and call it a day.

On the other side tho - the Rom men do also make money - it's jsut not as obvious.

I knwo here in America it's a bit different. the Rom women don't beg - they usually do fortune-telling. The Rom men do body-work on cars. but that's jsut part of it - it's still a hustle with welfare scams and such.


I'm torn on The Rom - on the one hand I admire their ability to work whatever system is in place without managing to be beholden, but at the same time, it is my tax money getting taken advantage of. that doesn't stop me from paying a gypsy to bang out a dent on my car tho when they stop me in a parkign lot. *lol*

[bos1]

16. Where do you live, btw?

I am curious where in the USA gypsies are selling their car repair skills in parking lots.

(It's an honest question, not an accusatory one. I wasn't aware of anywhere in the US where there are such unassimilated Roma, and I think it is cool.)

(BTW2, are you native Czech?)

[MsTryska]

21. I live in Atlanta, Georgia

I met my first Gypsies in NYC. it was a bunch of young men aroudn my age at the time, and they had taken up a spot on the corner of my neighborhood looking to stop peopel and do bodywork.

I remember them saying soemthing rude and sexually harassing to me, and played it off and asked them who they were and what they were doing in my neighborhood. I commented on how they looked like me (i'm indian) and they said they were Rom, also known as gypsy. I said you still look liek em and that language you speak amongst yourself sounds vaguely ike Hindi. We then compared languaged by counting to 5 in both Rom and Hindi and i had said I think soemwhere along the line we were related once. From there i went my way and they went there, and I've been fascinated ever since.

i read an ethnography on primarily Czech gypsies - mainly focused on the women - just last year that was quite good, that touches on the various aspects of being gypsy in Europe. it was quite even-handed with a very objective look at Rom culture, and what I liked best is that it was fairly contemproary. I wish i could remember the name - I'll have to look on Amazon i think to find it again.

[MsTryska]

25. Found the Book!

Bury me Standing by Elizabeth Fonseca - it's a fascinating read:

http://www.amazon.com/Bury-Me-Standing-Gypsies-Journey/dp/067973743X/ref=pd_bbs_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1217353564&sr=1-1

[bos1]

26. Yes it is a very good book

I have read it.

So was your story about the car body work offer in the parking lot from NYC or Atlanta?

& isn't the name you are using here a little bit Eastern European? (I guess I shouldn't assume it is your real name. Mine isn't bos.)

[MsTryska]

27. The bodyork offer was down here in Atlanta

I had met those guys up in NYC and that's when i'd first bene aware that gypsies did bodywork. And then when i first moved here to Atlanta, i got stopped at a gas station by another Romani man who offered to fix a fender but I didn't have the money.

I actually took soemone up on it last year, when I had a minor fender bump. I didn't want to take it to the bodyshop - but a younger man and his little brother offered to do it for $50 dollars. they did a pretty good job - just banged it out and pt bondo on it and then sandpapered. Not bad for $50 - you can barely notice it's there.

Iv'e heard a lot fo people get scammed with that one, but these guys jsut had to do basic stuff for me - which I would do if i had the tool d and the wherewithal, or a boyfriend who was avaialble to do that stuff for me. *lol*

And yeah - I realize my name i think might mean 3 in polish - I'm nto sure. It's actually an alias based on the greek word for 13.

[bos1]

28. well personally I think it is cool that you have found Romany in Atlanta

I take it they were immigrants, or were they actually USA-born?

I used to get car body work done this way too, from Mexican Americans who were 1st generation. It is a marginal industry often done by immigrants.

[MsTryska]

29. There's quite a few US-born, I would guess

But I'm not sure how they got here to be honest. I don't think the ones I've run across were 1st generation. The accents were very american without too much of the linguistic tells that indicate non-native english speakers.

The community is a lot larger than one would think yet very invisible in the States. You wouldn't notice them until they come to you. But they do have a very interesting structure here. They stake out terrirtories for themselves and when it's time to move on they will sell their "town" to another Romani. Almost like a franchise.

[Heidi]

22. They pay taxes, too. They're not rippin' off the Swiss people,

I can assure you.

[bos1]

17. I appreciate your message

To me, to the extent that these differences even exist (for example, the one Gypsy out of ten who begs is easy to notice, the others who may be working or whatever are not), then I say let's celebrate them. What do we want, a world where everyone behaves in a boring, uniform way?

[entanglement]

19. Many Europeans believe that European identity is based primarily on race and blood

In other words they believe Europeans are born, not made, and that kind of primitive racialist thinking is definitely a major obstacle to Roma integration. To make matters worse, the European ruling class is xenophobic to a degree that would make Lou Dobbs blush. Anyone considered a 'foreigner' or 'outsider' is considered fair game for the most vicious kinds of attacks (especially during tough economic times).

[Donald Ian Rankin]

24. I'm guessing you don't have much experience of Europe.

Virtually no-one self-identifies as a "European", and the cultural differences between (say) Britain, Greece, Serbia, Spain and Sweden are such as to make this kind of generalisation about "The European Ruling Class" laughable.

My impression is that levels of xenophobia in the UK are similar to or marginally lower than in the US; I can't reliably speak about the rest of Europe. The foreign nations the British are probably most hostile to, incidentally, are France and Germany (although those aren't the immigrant groups who receive most hostility).