For a bunch of "gay-loving latte liberals," the Unitarians made short work of the armed terrorist.

[mistertrickster]

http://www.knoxnews.com/news/2008/jul/28/church-shooting-police-find-manifesto-suspects-car/

According to the article linked above, the right-wing terrorist got off only three shots before the "cheese-eating surrender monkeys" wrestled him and his shotgun to the ground.

One typical liberal coward threw himself into the line of fire to protect the other parishioners.

No doubt the media will play up the heroic courage-under-fire by these Volvo-driving liberals.

When pigs fly . . .

[tkmorris]

1. You know, that's an excellent point.

[cliffordu]

28. You know, that IS an excellent point.....

[CatWoman]

81. did someone mention that's an excellent point?

:)

[Scout]

2. and they didn't even need a gun! n/t

[ColbertWatcher]

3. This is a good point. n/t

[robinlynne]

27. CW is right. This is a GREAT point!

[nxylas]

64. But if they had been armed, he would only have got off one shot

Compulsory gun ownership for all churchgoers NOW!

(necessary :sarcasm: tag)

[Kweli4Real]

65. Well, if only ...

those cheese-eaters had applied the principles of the patriot acts, they would have profiled the guy and stopped him before he got into the church ... Hell, if they had activated FISA and tapped his communications with his god, they could have stopped him before he left his house.:shrug:

[Catherine Vincent]

4. Good point!

[proud patriot]

5. Us liberals like to HUG our attackers into submission

very tightly :D

[geomon666]

10. Judging by the condition of his face in his mug shot...

They sure hugged him a lot before turning him over to the cops.

[frylock]

17. hugged the shit outta him!

[proud patriot]

32. ahyup !

[proReality]

62. Strength gained from hugging all those trees. n/t

[burythehatchet]

23. I began corresponding with the UU church in Atlanta this afternoon

I'll be going to services Sunday and staying after for newcomer orientation. (raised Hindu)

I'll bet I'm not the only one.

[intheflow]

29. Are you going to the big Atlanta UU church?

That's a cool church, both the architecture and the people. They have an amazing and inspiring history on race relations. :)

[burythehatchet]

30. The one on Cliff Valley

[intheflow]

31. That's the one. They have a similar heroic history

when working for civil rights in the 50's. This is a good church to visit in solidarity, I'm sure they can relate to the shooting. They had to stand up to Southern violence, literally for being liberal--the church was called the United Liberal Church.

From their web site:

By the late 1940s, the congregation had dwindled (over segregationist issues) to a mere handful again, and the AUA (American Unitarian Association) in Boston stepped in and outright sold the West Peachtree Street building. It was not until the early 1950s that the AUA sent the Rev. Glenn Canfield, who established an integrationist liberalism that sat well. He held services for a year at the Briarcliff Hotel and offered his congregation the opportunity to "talk back" in response to his sermons. A year later, a building at 605 Boulevard was purchased from the Mormons, and the group grew to 127 members. The Rev. Ed Cahill replaced him in 1957 and the city, as Cahill reported in an anniversary letter to the church, came "to know where the church stood on the critical issues. The church was integrated, not just desegregated." Whitney Young, then Dean of the Atlanta School of Social Work (and later national head of the Urban League), was a black member of the Board of Trustees. Rev. Martin Luther King, Jr., then assistant to his father at Ebenezer Baptist Church, was a pulpit guest, as was Sam Williams, another outstanding black minister. Two incidents that occurred during this period:

• Atlanta University students had organized a sit-in at the segregated lunch counter in Rich’s. Several hundred were arrested for trespassing, and jailed. On Sunday morning during the talk-back at the service, the chairman of the Public Affairs Committee asked how many members would be willing to return their Rich’s charge cards in protest. Over a hundred hands went up, and over a hundred cards were in the mail that afternoon.
  
  
• The second illustration involved the Ebenezer Baptist Church, where Coretta Scott King was leader of the Youth Group. The two churches arranged joint Sunday evening programs, alternating between them, so black and white young people could get to know one another.

The Klan called Mrs. Cahill and threatened violence at the next Sunday evening meeting at the United Liberal Church . Unitarian officials consulted Coretta King and she said to go ahead . All parents were called to give them the option of keeping their children home. Not one parent held back. In fact, all the fathers came that evening and ringed the church outside to form a visible wall of protection.

[tavalon]

43. You are not the only one

[TommyO]

76. You're definitely not the only one.

There is a UU congregation just two miles from my house. I've been there sporadically over the past few years, but will definitely be attending this Sunday and beyond.

I'll be moving to the Toms River area later this year and have already scoped out the local congregation there as well.

[damntexdem]

6. And note that it wasn't people carrying concealed weapons firing away at the perpetrator ...

and killing far-more bystanders.

It was just people protecting each other against the only guy shooting.

[mistertrickster]

11. Right, the terrorist fired 3x and killed or wounded like 9 people.

Imagine if several others started opening up with their weapons.

[krispos42]

87. This time, yes.

Unfortunately, this is not a common event.

In this kind of situation a good outcome (stopped shooter) requires very fast action by somebody or somebodies close by. Unfortunately, such a reaction is atypical. Most people will not act alone, or quickly enough, or be brave enough to charge an attacker. It's not in our mentality, we usually duck and cover instead.

I imagine that if a play hadn't been going on, that if the audience hadn't been full of proud parents and family members completely aware that their children were on an open stage and in full view of the shooter, the result might well have been distinctly different.

[Hekate]

7. KnR. I'm so proud of my Unitarian brethren. nt

[cyclezealot]

13. We are too.

Life would have a big void without our UU connections.

[Joe Chi Minh]

70. I remember, as a young man, being impressed by the thoughts and sayings

of Ralph Waldo Emerson. Here is a quotation from him which seems to fit the event: "Character is higher than intellect.... A great soul will be strong to live as well as to think."

[SidneyCarton]

8. Courage doesn't need the gun...

just the willingness to take the bullet without hesitation. Those that fell lived their religion to the utmost, they gave their lives for their friends. If we do not choose to die like sheep, they cannot kill us like sheep.

[rox63]

59. Although UU's are generally peaceable folks

I have known UU's who were also gun-owners.

[JHB]

66. "Peaceable" and "gun-owning" are not mutually exclusive...

...as long as "self-righteous jackass" isn't in the mix.

[Hamlette]

9. That was my first thought when I read the article too

makes it harder for the right wing to argue ppl should be allowed to carry guns in churches and schools. We don't need no stinking guns. We can take the bad guys down with our bare hands. Yeehaw.

On a serious note, they were very brave people. My guess is the presence of children made the need to stop him all the more urgent.

[Lautremont]

12. He was wearing a sling and had a bloody gash on his forehead when the cops walked him out.

Not the gentlest people! I'd have been very tempted to do the same or worse too, though I'm very much non-violent.

And I was glad to see they didn't need a gun, though some will claim that if guns had been present, only the Freepmaniac would have died. Bullshit! say I. He had a shotgun, and probably would have had his three shots off - or more - before any gun-toting Unitarians could draw their own weapons. And if there had been a lot of guns present, who knows what carnage might have ensured - some people tackling him, then getting shot by the people shooting at him, for instance.

[mistertrickster]

14. Correct. He had a semi-auto. I can get 3 shots off with my Rem 1187 in 2 seconds.

The only thing that slows you down is handling the recoil.

It took quick, bold action to get to take this guy down as fast as they did. He had 76 shells on him--a moment's hesitation and it would have been much worse.

[trof]

18. Where did you see semi-auto? I heard...

One witness said "He had to stop and reload each time", or something close to that.

Of course they may have been unfamiliar with shotguns.
And to them, operating the slide to eject the spent shell and insert new one may have been "reloading".

Nest point: Don't many shotguns have a plug (or something?) so that there is a maximum number of shells you can load?
Like 3?

So...my wild ass guess: He had a slide action gun with a 3 shell plug.
They got him after he'd fired 3 shots because that's actually when he had to reload.
Whatcha think??
:shrug:

[gatorboy]

24. They were probably too busy ducking to pay that much attention to the firearm.

But yes, according to Knoxnews the Remington he used held 3 shells.

http://www.knoxnews.com/news/2008/jul/29/suspects-note-cites-liberal-movement-church-attack/

[RamboLiberal]

77. It was a good thing he was using a shotgun where he had to

reload after 3 shots. Unless he's really skilled it would take him a few seconds to grab 3 more shells and load. That gave those brave individuals time to tackle him.

If he'd have brought in a high capacity pistol or rifle or a shotgun that held more shells there would've been more death and injury.

The Long Island Railroad shooting some passengers tackled that gunman when he had to reload his pistol. And I rememberin a couple of the school shootings where some brave students who knew something about guns tackled a shooter when he had to reload.

[LeftyMom]

33. There's a difference between non-violence and passive suicide.

I'm never going to be the first one to throw a punch, let alone fire a shot, but I'm damned sure going to defend myself and others to the best of my ability.

And if some freak show with a gun showed up at my kid's event, once tackled and disarmed I think they'd find themselves with a well-stomped shooting hand, just in case. But the last time I had to use violence to protect a kid a guy lost a nut, so maybe I'm just the wrong person to fuck with.

[Libby2]

82. Amen sister!!

[Hekate]

86. Damned straight. nt

[iamthebandfanman]

15. they put a boot in his ass

its the american way.


sorry, all this toby keith talk on the forums got to me.

[Kitty Herder]

45. LOL

Way to turn around an ugly song into something positive!

That song was one of the things that made me stop listening to country music from anytime after the mid-nineties.

[ljm2002]

16. Yes, I'll never forget that SWAT team at Columbine...

...fearfully creeping around for an hour or two while a wounded teacher bled to death.

Whereas here we have unarmed civilians just taking the guy down. Although one of those courageous people himself lost his life, it certainly prevented much more massive bloodshed. RIP, James McKendry, you were a true hero.

[izquierdista]

Their training makes them cowards

Just like their idol Colin 'don't-attack-without-overwhelming-force' Powell, SWAT teams and their assorted military and paramilitary wait to attack until all personal danger has passed. These are not the same people who stormed the beach at Normandy, they are the ones who stormed the Waco compound of the Branch Davidians as the fire was burning itself out.

[smiley_glad_hands]

19. k&r eom

[Beaverhausen]

20. I thought he struck 7 people?

I don't know anything about guns, so not sure if this is possible or not.

[yardwork]

53. He used a shotgun, which fires numerous bullets at once.

Each blast of a shotgun can hit lots of people.

[Joe Chi Minh]

71. I believe a sawn-off shotgun is considered the deadliest of fire-arms

at short range.

[LiberalEsto]

21. UUs - tough when it counts nt

[Coexist]

22. "reports claim the gunman took a wedge of brie to the eye"

[LeftyMom]

34. I heard he got second degree latte burns and a pastry and some volvo keys shoved up his ass.

;)

[Coexist]

35. and what they did with the arugula *shudder*

[Tandalayo_Scheisskopf]

47. And then, the heartless beasts...

Broke all international laws and bounderies of common decency and pulled out...

The Sushi.

Monsters.

[TommyO]

78. Somebody had to go down to the kitchen first to get a visitor cup

My local UU congregation has a whole pile of yellow coffee cups for visitors to use during the after service get-together.

[applegrove]

25. Good point.

[fascisthunter]

26. OMG!1!1!1! They did so without a gun TOO!!!111!!!!!

[BlooInBloo]

40. I know that's not possible, because killing-crazed gun people tell me so.

[gratuitous]

36. Well, that can't be right

Because I've been informed ad nauseam over the last few decades that only law-abiding citizens armed to the teeth are any match for a crazed gunman. And Charlton Heston was NEVER wrong!

[alarimer]

37. And none of them were armed either.

I think that took a lot of guts, actually. Good for them.

[orleans]

38. god, a latte sounds really good right now. i'm so highly susceptible

to food cues (such as reading the word "latte")

...shit! maybe i'll make a small pot of coffee. but i know it won't be the same...

[BlooInBloo]

39. Well it's not like they were FRENCH!

:P

[Canuckistanian]

41. And funnily enough, no firearms were necessary

Now we have a LIVE suspect who can TELL us what his problems are.

If he's a nutcase, he'll get the help he needs.

If he isn't, he'll serve his time and be a reminder LONG AFTER his crimes.

If he's killed for revenge executed, he and his problems will be forgotten.

[FraDon]

42. Pacifism is not passive.

Nice call mistertrickster, this is another, tragic teachable case-study, in SO many ways.

Did anybody else think, Manchurian Candidate?

[Maestro]

44. I am not sure why repukes and reich-wingers paint us as weak.

I'd love to be thrown into a ring with some of these chicken-hawks and crazy piece of shites that spew their venom weekly.

[Kitty Herder]

46. One word: Projection. nt

[Ian_rd]

74. I think projection has certainly been proven in the gay issue, that's for damn sure.

And I think you're right about this too. Republicans want to give up their rights because they are afraid of terrorists, and want to carry a loaded weapon at all times because they are afraid of everything that moves. Fear governs their entire lives.

[KG]

48. and they didn't need a gun to take him down.

[Orrex]

49. I object to the term "terrorist" in this context

He wasn't a terrorist; he was a mentally ill individual with Right-leaning sensibilities and whose tragic condition led him to an act of unprovoked violence in a religious establishment favored by Liberals.


If he were a mentally ill individual with Left-leaning sensibilities whose tragic condition led him to an act of unprovoked violence in a religious establishment favored by Conservatives, well, then he'd be a terrorist.


Try to keep it straight.

[hatrack]

50. Great explanation!

:evilgrin:

[KG]

51. your grasp of nuance is noted.

[yardwork]

54. The man thing is that he wasn't brown, therefore can't be a terrorist.

Brown = terrorist
Anglo = not terrorist.

See? Simple.

[Orrex]

55. A good distinction

Too bad that they couldn't work the "freedom fighter" angle. And, of course, Conservatives would have misgivings about lionizing anyone who admitted to suckling at the public teat of food stamps.

[yardwork]

56. That's why the freepers have convinced themselves that he is really a liberal

pretending to be a conservative.

[Orrex]

58. Oh :puke:

I hadn't heard that, but it doesn't surprise me. Let me guess:

"He bought those books and posted comments on Fox precisely so that people would think he was a Conservative when he went on his rampage."

Right?

[yardwork]

60. Well, their posts weren't spelled as well as yours, but that was the gist of it, yes.

Their posts were more along the lines of:

1 bet hes porbaly a librel pertendng to be Consorvtiv.

[Vickers]

52. That is exactly the point I made

in this thread.

"Look at it another way: some unarmed, peace-loving liberals watching a children's musical at church took down a psycho with a SHOTGUN. So if there are any lurking wingnut psychos reading this, watch your ass...we don't back down as easily as you think."

Great minds and all that.

:P

[KansDem]

57. This neo-con terrorist went in during a CHILDREN'S' MUSICAL???"

Well, so much for the "family values" crowd.

If he came in firing off a 12-gage during one of my children's' musicals, he would stand trial posthumously...:grr:

[yardwork]

61. Yes, but it was a secular musical, so it doesn't count.

Seriously, the freeps are freaked because it wasn't a "devotional" musical. See, the kids deserved to see their parents killed because they were doing some "librel" sectarian play, not a proper religious play.

There have actually been posts on Free Republic in the past couple days saying this.

[KansDem]

63. "There have actually been posts on Free Republic in the past couple days saying this."

Why doesn't this surprise me?

Thanks for the info...:hi:

[Ian_rd]

73. Christ I read the long freeper thread on this story

These people are so colossally fucked up it strains belief. The primary focus is how if these liberal unitarians had guns, then maybe it could have been prevented. Do freepers go to church armed, ready to fire at any second? Do they really live everyday totally controlled by fear? Fucking A.

But I think my favorite was attributing the shooting to hatred of religion - tortuously trying to spin the shooter into an atheist liberal or some such bullshit.

I found no reference to the shooters reading material and Savage-inspired talking points. I suppose those kind of details are too much to bear.

[BrklynLiberal]

67. I guess some folks do not have to have a gun in their hands in order to be courageous and brave.

[yurbud]

68. if freepers don't see this. They'll the demand their second amendment right to flame throwers

so the next guy doesn't get taken down.

[YOY]

69. Because were all sheep like wussies because we believe piece is a better way!

:sarcasm:

[Mopar151]

72. One thing my Dad taught me

by example - it takes more courage by far to be a pacifist than a bully. Like many veterans of heavy combat (WW2, 100thdiv, BAR,Purple Heart, Bronze Star, permanently disabled) he was a pacifist who was nobody's pushover.

[yardwork]

80. Welcome to DU!

Your father sounds like a wonderful person.

[Mopar151]

84. And a native of Unity, NH

He grew up across the road from the site of the Unity rally.

[katty]

75. go Unitarians--great job

[DailyGrind51]

79. Great post, thank you!

Liberals will always oppose tyranny with principles, conservatives will sell-out for profit.

[Chovexani]

83. Quickest committee meeting ever in the history of UUs

[LostinVA]

85. Haruka LOLed when I just read this to her