*** HELP NEEDED: 2012 Mayan "Apocalypse" ***

[Zhade]

Hi all,

I need rational critical thinkers to direct me to refutations of the alleged 2012 "Mayan calendar ends = supernatural event" nonsense.

I have a coworker I really like who is becoming increasingly obsessed with this silliness. Any and all help to show him there is no conclusive evidence of... whatever... happening is appreciated.

Thanks in advance!

[Orrex]

1. Here's all the evidence you need:

If you believe in ancient prophecies of doom, you're a certifiable lunatic.

[Zhade]

12. He doesn't exactly believe, so much as "all the evidence is so compelling!"...

NT!

[DavidDvorkin]

16. What evidence?

There isn't any.

[Zhade]

20. Exactly, but he keeps citing "galactic alignment" and "poles reversing".

Oh, and "prophecy". :eyes:

[Hugabear]

23. Ask him what exactly he means by "galactic alignment"

And then ask him if he knows what the hell that means, and why he thinks that it would have an effect on Earth.

[Zhade]

38. He keeps going on about "gamma rays" and "a perfect storm".

And now he thinks the government is scrubbing information on the subject from websites.

Sigh.

[Hugabear]

47. Sounds like he really doesn't know what he's talking about

If he's just tossing out terms and phrases that he's read on various websites, then he probably hasn't actually tried to analyze it and think it through rationally.

[DavidDvorkin]

24. Aargh!

[comtec]

46. The Myan calendar is not set in stone...

ok actually it is. It's a beautifully crafted series of gears.
The world isn't ending, the calendar is being reset to 0.
This has happed I think 2/3 times in the past.
Where the gears have simply reset.
But if it takes the threat of the world ending to force these people to start trying to do something to top it , then all the more power to them!

it's going to take a lot of pain and effort to save our pathetic species. Maybe the effort will pay off, maybe we have to prove that we're not a self-centered species, and that we deserve saving.. I dunno. But it seems that ever since that Tsunami, which was sparked by a 9.x earthquake, everything has been accelerated.

[IDemo]

2. No you don't

The rationality is needed (badly) by those who want to push this story.

"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence."

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

3. Well, for one thing,

the Mayan calendar does not indicate that 2012 would be the end of everything. Even sites that say the calendar is indicative of what you might term "supernatural events" don't say that such an event would only happen in that year, but rather that events of a supernatural nature happen all the time. They interpret the calendar as charting the evolution of consciousness.

[mcctatas]

4. start here:

http://www.skepdic.com/maya.html

but the fact that they didn't predict their own demise makes me skeptical that they predicted ours (aside from the whole lunacy of doomsday prophesies angle;) )

[Bright Eyes]

5. I usually say:

If the Mayans were prophetic enough to predict the exact day, of the exact month, of the exact year the world is going to end, how come they couldn't predict their own civilization's collapse?

[lunatica]

8. Too many assumptions

No one knows what they predicted about themselves. It's quite possible that they could have predicted their demise exactly how it happened.

The thing about the Mayan prophecies is that many of them are lost. There were many books or codices or calendars which were found and they all had the cyclical kinds of predictions with endings. Then another codice would be put together about another cycle. The Mayan Calendars are only around 52 years long. So each calendar ended it's cycle of time. Then another calendar would be started with it's own cycle. The last book or codice found, though not the last one that ever existed just happens to be the one that predicts the end of a cycle in 2012.

My advice is let those people believe whatever they want. We'll all find out in 4 years anyway. This blind belief has a short shelf life left.

[BB1]

52. Do you know how close you are to the truth?

The Incas were the ones who predicted a coming of a conqueror with the setting of a special star. When all of a sudden the Spaniards swept over South America, the Incas just laid down their weapons and submitted to thier 'new masters'.

The Mayans on the other hand were most likely wiped out by a single virus or the after effects of some local meteorite. While it's true they had excellent calendars, they also brought blood-offerings to their Gods by sacrificing virgins on top of the mountains. They also were very good at constructing large buildings without the use of cement or other sticky stuff. Great mathicians, most likely, although they had no 'zero'.

I never try to convince people there will be no massive earth extinction in 2012. Instead I tell them to vote me President in 2028 if we're still around. That takes their mind of things.

[ColbertWatcher]

6. According to Wikip*dia...

...December 12, 2012 marks the end of one era, not the end of the world.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B%27ak%27tun

[seemslikeadream]

7. That is correct

[Warpy]

9. Exactly, it's the end of the "fifth world."

The whole calendar restarts from the beginning for the sixth world.

Part of me hopes they are correct, that the world of kings and owners and rulers and other greedy scumbags will be discarded in favor of something a lot more laid back and less violent.

Unfortunately, those types will always be with us.

[seemslikeadream]

10. Mayan Calendar Explained (Part 1 of 18) - Ian Xel Lungold

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mDN6ZcZ0y9I

Would someone let me know if this link works for my playlist. please?
http://www.youtube.com/my_playlists?pi=0&ps=20&sf=&sa=0&sq=&dm=0&p=C733D02B9B5FBE0C

[Faygo Kid]

Excuse me, but where do you work? The Department of Justice?

Obviously your coworker doesn't have enough to do.

I bet Monica Goodling hired him/her, right?

[Deja Q]

11. I prefer Miracle Whip.

:9

[Tandalayo_Scheisskopf]

18. THIS Miracle Whip?

[L. Coyote]

13. The "Apocalypse" is actuallly coming on that date

for all the people selling books about this figment of imagination.

Tell your friend to get out a book PRONTO!!! :rofl:

Seriously, try the Hall of Maat discussion forum for all things pseudoscience that need debunking.

[peacetalksforall]

14. It's a calendar end, not the end of our souls. I like to think of it timed

with the Age of aquarious. Just think cycles and try to help. New Doom or New Hope - can go either way. Whether we realize it or not we can evolve into something better - the code is in our hearts and minds and being.

[TexasObserver]

15. That is not the end of the world, but the end of an AGE, based upon the stars.

I forget the years involved, but it's about 2200 years per AGE, and the earth shifts into a new AGE based upon the earth's journey through the universe. The sky is divided into 12 parts, making up a circle, and the earth completes a trip through that 360 degrees of sky every (12 x 2200= 26,400 years). We know those 12 parts as the divisions ancient men labeled with signs called the signs of the Zodiak.

Roughly, every 26,400 (plus or minus 2000 years), the earth completes that cycle. Even though they are called AGES, the reality is that's just a human contrivance based upon the divisions ancient man made in the sky to better understand the night skies, and which star arrangements allowed them to play connect the dots to create images of things like a crab, or a scorpion.

In fact, there are no such divisions, it's simply a continuous journey in which humans identify a start, and end, and 12 hash marks in between, to mark the passage of time.

In summary, the end of the Mayan calendar ion 2012 doesn't really mean the end of an age, except it confirms that Mayans understood the movements of the stars in the sky as being neverending, based upon a circle (the movement of the earth), and that 2012 is simply one of the 12 hash marks on the ancient Maya calendar.

It's like saying JULY will soon end. Yes, it will, and then it will be August. And when 12 similar units of time pass, it will be JULY again. The Mayan AGES are analogous to arbitrarily making 12 months and calling them by a name.

[Zhade]

21. Uh, astrology is also nonsense. Using nonsense to explain nonsense is... nonsense.

NT!

[TexasObserver]

29. I wrote of ASTRONOMY and ancient history, not astrology.

This is ASTRONOMY, the study of the movement of the stars and other celestial bodies.

You are inferring something I never said, mainly because you automatically think any mention of the signs of the Zodiac implies astrology, which is badly incorrect. Before there was astrology, there was the actual astronomy which acted as the basis for the selection of star groups, which star groups were given names to enable humans to identify those groupings in the night sky.

The ancients learned about astronomy, and to better study it and teach it, they invented 12 parts of the sky, which the knowledgeable person well knows. They invented the stories and characters to help drive home the organization of the lights in the night sky.

The night skies were learned long before the first telescope was built. The lessons learned were placed in the form of stories, and those stories allowed knowledge to be passed on around the campfire to succeeding generations.

Astrology is where people attribute to celestial events life influences in humans, which is pure idiocy.

[Zhade]

39. I apologize. I'm so frustrated with this woo-woo bullshit that I skimmed.

When I saw "Zodiac", I stopped reading. That's my mistake.

[TexasObserver]

42. Cool. Sorry if I overreacted. I hesitated to even use that term.

But I was trying to explain it in terms that are easily understood.

Many of the myths that embrace beliefs about "gods" in ancient times were based upon people losing track of the astronomic purposes of the stories told about the night skies around those camp fires. For example, they created a story to go along with Orion, for communication and teaching purposes, then the tales took on a reality of their own.

I don't give astrology any credibility. Only humans, using human vision, from earth, "SEE" in the sky the celestial events that are allegedly significant. Does it mean anything cosmic when a comet crosses the sky? Only on a basic, physical level. Ditto things like eclipses. The earth, moon and sun do not change when they experience an eclipse. These are significant only to US, as bio organisms on planet earth, and their significance is all in our heads.

When the planets align, does it really do anything? I don't think so. I think to the universe such events are no different from the day before or the day after.

[TheMightyFavog]

35. They Mayans probably would have had a big celebration throughout thier empire to mark the occasion.

Sort of like we did on New Years, 2000.

[TexasObserver]

37. This is the dawning of the Age of Aquarius.

Some think it's cosmic. I don't. I think it's merely astronomic. Its only real significance is because we perceive it as such, visually, from here on earth.

[Kaleko]

17. If you really like this guy

you might just want to listen to him without pre-judging what he's grappling with and why. Maybe he has a need to be certain about some things in an uncertain and terrifying future. And maybe you are also too afraid to admit to yourself that you can't be certain that he is silly in not being rational according to your definition of what "rational" means. Maybe he needs some semblance of "knowing what's gonna happen" to hang onto for his psychological health. I don't know.

Anyway, I often find that right-mongering is lethal in relationships. Maintaining a good rapport with someone likable is much wiser than insisting I am right and therefore you are wrong. Forcing someone to admit they're wrong can be akin to dealing a death-blow to their self-image. Why make unnecessary enemies when we've got the Bushies & Co, I mean real fascists, to deal with? :-)

[Zhade]

19. I'm not afraid -- there's NO EVIDENCE to support this.

It's utter horseshit.

[TexasObserver]

25. delete

responded to the wrong post

[Canuckistanian]

22. I think it's a mistranslation of Cheney's deatth

It's supposed to read "Apocalypse and Tequila Toga Party", but several glyphs got damaged in the excavation.

[Zhade]

40. LOL!

Thanks, I needed that. : )

[paparush]

50. And the dark lord's mechanical heart shall grow weary and fail and he shall trouble you no more..

[Hugabear]

26. Tell him that it's absolutely real - and that he needs to give you all of his personal belongings

:toast:

[Ilsa]

27. You should pay attention to poster

ayeshahaqqiqa in this thread and in Astrology, Spirituality & Alternative Healing Group, etc. She has a broad range of knowledge in the realm of Spiritual Matters. I've been reading her posts for a long time now. Maybe her info can help you with this coworker.

[Zhade]

41. I love ayeshahaqqiqa as a person, but astrology? Please.

NT!

[Ilsa]

53. No, but there are other discussions over the Mayan Calendar in these forums

I wouldn't have pointed you to astrology per se, but there have been threads about your topic in the other forums. Maybe a Search will help you.

[csziggy]

28. My Favorite End of the World site is It's the End of the World as We Know It - Again

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/oracle/9941/

While they don't debunk the various theories, they list ALL of the end of the world prophecies that were ever made. After reading a few dozen, they all seem to be equally idiotic.

[DearAbby]

30. Didnt we go through this bullshit with 2yk crap?

the world as we knew it was supposed to end December, 1999....it was delayed two years, December 2000 was when the world as we knew it ended...wait...better tell your co-worker not to worry, run up his credit cards, go shopping....he can go out and buy years supplies of tuna and powdered milk....CHARGE IT!!!

[Swamp Rat]

31. Does he have a big, flat screen TV? A New car? Disposable income?

[lonestarnot]

33. Snort!

:rofl:

[MercutioATC]

32. Here's my take on the "Mayan End of the World":

They didn't use paper, they carved the calendars in stone. Some poor Mayan had been carving calendars for years in the hot South American sun.

One day he looked down and said to himself "I'm up to WHAT year?"

[lonestarnot]

34. I figure he just broke his tool.

:evilgrin:

[nam78_two]

36. lol.nt

[symbolman]

45. Lol

EXACTLY...

At 55 I'm really getting sick of these Lemming like World Enders.. Sheesh, just look at cartoons, one staple, now a Cliche, has always been the guy with a "The End is Near" sign.. :)

Now a big ass asteroid with our name on it heading this way is something to worry about.. As far as I've heard there's a staff equivalent to the size of a McDonald's restaurant staff watching for space debris, and I guess there is at least One biggie headed this way in at least the next 50 years - one that could kill the planet while we argue over the pictures of it with Republicans whether it actually Exists or Not..

The Democrats, not wanting to look Soft on potentially nonexistant space planet hammerers will play it Safe and side with the Cloned McCain President-Dictator For Life..

:)

[Faux pas]

43. Here's something you can read and recommend to your

coworker: The Mayans believed at at the conclusion of each pictun cycle of about 7,885 years the universe is destroyed and re-created. Those with apocalyptic inclinations will be relieved to observe that the present cycle will not end until Columbus Day, October 12, 4772 in the Gregorian calendar.

http://www.fourmilab.ch/documents/calendar/ The Mayan calendar translation(?) is not quite halfway down the page.

[scheming daemons]

44. Here's what you do

Tell him you'll give him $1000 right now, to do with whatever he wants... on one condition.


On December 22nd, 2012... the day AFTER the Mayan calendar ends... he has to give you $5000.



If he really believes the world will end on December 21, 2012... he'll take the deal. Because he won't ever have to pay back the $5000. So... the $1000 you give him right now is free money.

...if he REALLY believes the Mayan bullshit.


Find out how much he really believes it.



If he takes the deal... he's a nut case... and you'll get a $5000 Christmas present in 2012.


Just get the deal in writing.

[paparush]

49. THAT. . . is a great idea!

:-)

[Freddie Stubbs]

48. Offer to buy all of his stuff for real cheap

He won't need it after the Apocalypse, and he can enjoy the money now.

[Z_I_Peevey]

51. Here's a good book on the subject:

http://www.amazon.com/Apocalypse-2012-Scientific-Investigation-Civilizations/dp/0767924479

I'm reading it now. Tell your friend about it.