LA blocks new fast-food outlets from poor areas

[dkf]

Los Angeles bans new fast-food restaurants in poor areas lacking healthier fare

CHRISTINA HOAG
AP News

Jul 29, 2008 20:07 EST

City officials are putting South Los Angeles on a diet. The City Council voted unanimously Tuesday to place a moratorium on new fast food restaurants in an impoverished swath of the city with a proliferation of such eateries and above average rates of obesity.

The yearlong moratorium is intended to give the city time to attract restaurants that serve healthier food. The action, which the mayor must still sign into law, is believed to be the first of its kind by a major city to protect public health.

"Our communities have an extreme shortage of quality foods," City Councilman Bernard Parks said.

Representatives of fast-food chains said they support the goal of better diets but believe they are being unfairly targeted. They say they already offer healthier food items on their menus.

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/2008/07/la_blocks_new_fastfood_outlets.php

[aspergris]

1. this is AT LEAST the 3rd time this story has been posted fwiw.

I'm tired of arguing against the authoritarian ninnies in the city council that voted for this crap.

[depakid]

2. And I'm tired of shortsighted libertarians who don't understand land use planning

or economics.

This is one year moratorium supported by residents in the communites as evidenced in 5 separate public hearings, along with survey data- and in the interrim, the city council is exploring options to attract groceries and other healthier choices for people who currently don't have them.

[aspergris]

3. oh noes

you used the L word again. I guess if i don't support authoritarian, paternalistic govt. programs that attempt to protect people from THEMSLEVES (eg. the drug war), that makes me an EVUL LIBERTARIAN!!

the fact that it is "supported by residents in the community " is especially ridiculous.

here's a hint

1) NOBODY is preventing healthier choices from moving into the neighborhood. this does not somehow allow this. this PREVENTS others (mcd's et al) from competing.

and just because a (at least a vocal) majority of citizens supports paternalistic nannystate govt. intervention to try to provent people from their OWN DECISIONS doesn't make it right.

[depakid]

4. If the shoe fits...

You're ignoring the data and public input to the city council- and instead arguing what amounts to "free" market libertarian views and hurling nanny state memes against a rational land use planning (and public health) decision.

Here's the Council's statement (as opposed to advertiser driven media articles and commentary)

SOUTH LOS ANGELES FAST FOOD INTERIM CONTROL ORDINANCE APPROVED BY COUNCIL COMMITTEE:
Ordinance Would Give Councilmembers Perry & Parks Oversight in Planning Process to Help Spur the Development of Diverse Food Choices in South Los Angeles

Los Angeles—An Interim Control Ordinance (ICO) drafted in response to a motion, authored by Councilwoman Jan Perry and seconded by Councilman Bernard Parks, was approved today by the City Council's Planning and Land Use Management Committee (PLUM) and is set to move forward to the City Council for a vote. The ordinance proposes a 1-year period which prevents new fast food establishments from opening in the South Los Angeles, Southeast Los Angeles, West Adams, Baldwin Hills and Leimert Park community planning areas. This will allow time for City planners to study the economic and environmental effects of the over-proliferation of fast-food restaurants in these communities and develop permanent solutions.

"This ordinance is in no way attempting to tell people what to eat but rather responding to the need to attract sit-down restaurants, full service grocery stores, and healthy food alternatives," said Councilwoman Perry. "Ultimately, this ordinance is about providing choices—something that is currently lacking in our community. South Los Angeles represents a mere 32 square miles of a city that is 468 square miles in size and yet it is home to the largest percentage of fast food establishments."

"I am fully supportive of the pending fast food ordinance which will give the 8th and 9th districts more input into land use and entitlement issues on our commercial corridors. The over concentration of fast food restaurants in conjunction with the lack of grocery stores places these communities in a poor situation to locate a variety of food and fresh food,” added Councilmember Parks.

The ICO is designed as a stop-gap measure to allow City Planning time to study the effects of these establishments as they pertain to community design, pedestrian activity, traffic, and other important urban planning issues. During this time, Planning will work with the affected Council Districts to create permanent guidelines designed to address these issues in a manner that will improve the quality of life for South Los Angeles communities. Currently, the South and Southeast Community Plans are in year two of a three year update process.

This process allows community members to work with City staff to establish guidelines to help shape development and uses they would like to see going forward in their community. These community plans were originally developed in the 1970s and have been revised only once during the past 30-plus years.

In addition, the ICO will allow both Perry and Parks time to actively attract grocery stores and restaurants to the area, by preserving existing land for these uses. In support of these efforts, a grocery store and sit-down restaurant package and brochure, spearheaded by Perry in partnership with the Community Redevelopment Agency of Los Angeles (CRA/LA), is currently being marketed to developers and retailers in an effort to attract greater amenities to the area.

The incentive package was designed for redevelopment project areas in South Los Angeles where there is a need for healthy food options and alternatives to fast food restaurants. In response, a working group comprised of the CRA/LA, Community Development Department (CDD), the Department of Water and Power (DWP), and the Chief Legislative Analyst (CLA), worked collaboratively to identify incentives to attract grocery stores and sit-down dining restaurants to under-served areas of the City such as South Los Angeles.

Some of the incentives offered in the package include help with under-grounding power lines, expedited site plan review, and assistance in land assemblage. The incentive plan includes the following redevelopment project areas located in South Los Angeles: Broadway/Manchester, Council District Nine Corridors, Crenshaw, Crenshaw/Slauson, University Park, Normandie 5, Vermont / Manchester, and Western Slauson.

"South Los Angeles is ripe for development. Studies have shown that there is a large and growing residential population that is in need of important amenities like grocery stores and sit-down restaurants for the entire family to enjoy. The people of our community deserve choices," said Councilwoman Perry. "As a City we can create policies to encourage these businesses to open their doors in South Los Angeles."

According to a 2005, study done by CB Richard Ellis, the Ninth District project area alone has an overall annual sales leakage of approximately $400 million in general merchandise, grocery and restaurant sales. If the $400 million could be captured within the area, it would support 1,500,000 square feet in new development, a fact that Councilwoman Perry hopes will entice developers to invest in the growth of South Los Angeles.

http://www.lacity.org/council/cd9/cd9press/cd9cd9press16554673_07232008.pdf

[aspergris]

7. wow. a self serving statement that supports what i said

it asserts govt. power to decide which type of restaurants meet our overlords approval and which don't.

nobody can force you to eat at mcdonald's. nobody can force you to eat crap (I say as somebody who enjoys an occasional McD's yet maintains my bf as a competitive weightclassed athlete).

The city council wants the power to say "no more fast food. slow food" etc.

they want the power to say what restaurants are ok and what aren't - because after all those poor fat people need the city council to protect them from evul restaurants.

[depakid]

9. You persist in being disingenious

which is typical of corporate apologists who are on the losing end of rational arguments. In case you didn't notice- CHOICE and THE ABILITY TO MAKE DECISIONS about what and where to eat is what the ordinance is all about.

Customer choice of course- isn't what you're interested in. Protecting Mcdonalds, et al. über alles is- no matter what the cost is to communities.

[aspergris]

10. and YOU persist in being disingenuous AND missing the point

McD's has ZERO power to make anybody eat there. ZERO.

the govt. HAS authority to say "Sorry, McD's... you can't open another restaurant"

THEY are the authoritarians.

and you keep missing the point. the community has ONE HUNDRED PERCENT VETO POWER over mcd's.

they can NOT EAT THERE.

Guess what? McD's makes money only if people eat there.

It can't simultaneously be true that
1) the "community" doesn't want McD's (et al) there
2) McD's et al are all over this neighborhood

because if ONE was true, they wouldn't EAT there, and McD's would SHUT DOWN.

again, it's not "the community". they have complete control over whether they enter McD's or not.
it's govt. saying "sorry. our dumb fat poor people can't make the decision for themself not to eat at your restaurant, so we're saying YOU have no right to open up a restaurant here. otoh, if tempeh emporium wants to, they have our blessing"

[madeline_con]

11. Excellent points!

I seriously doubt that the community's "dumb fat poor people" attended the meetings!

[Chulanowa]

17. #1 and #2 assume that the McDonalds exists in a vacuum with this community

Travellers are the main source of McDonalds intake in most locations. People passing through and grabbing some food to chow on while they keep going. Local business is supplementary, not primary.

In other words, Captain Rand, the restaurant can stay afloat without the community making purchases there. Many fast-food restaurants manage this just fine.

[aspergris]

18. omg

CAPTAIN RAND!!!
again, more libertarian slags... like being in favor of limiting govt. power is a bad thing.

keeerist.

again, nothing is preventing these alternative restaurants/stores from opening up. and nobody is forcing anybody into mcd's.

but we are going to have the authoritarian masters step in and save our dumb fat people from themselves. because clearly, according to the city council, they can't make decisions on their own.

[Chulanowa]

29. Limiting government power is one thing.

Making a flawed argument for it is another. Arguing for increased corporate power is also another thing.

There would in fact be something stopping these alternatives from opening up if McDonalds, Taco Bell, whatever open - the lack of property. I know that they don't teach this in modern day economics classes, but there's this notion called scarcity of resources. In a city, there is only so much turf for sale. If a business buys space for its own use, then that prevents another business from buying the same space. Amazingly, another new space doesn't magically spawn, no, the pool of available properties just shrunk.

No, nobody's forcing anyone into McDonalds. In fact, I'm surethat if people here want a tastelss burger on a stale bun with vulcanized cheese, they can drive two miles or so, and find a McDonalds right there. Shitburgers aren't exactly a rare commodity.

The "Authoritarian masters" are elected representatives of the community who are followign the wishes of the community that elected them. You might want McDonalds, KFC, and Jack-in-the-Box to be able to overrule the will of the people, but, well, that isn't how our nation and its many communities work.

[Luminous Animal]

5. No this is putting community over corporation.

Similarly, your community should have the option as to whether or not five strip joints on your block are enough. Or that your neighbors can't begin construction until 8:00 am and should stop by 7:OO pm. Or a live venue club may not be appropriate for a suburban neighborhood. Or a horse rendering factoring is probably not best situated next to a baseball stadium.

The vitality and diversity of a community is not always best served by market forces. Some people may suppose that democracy and capitalism are synonymous but they are not.

Sometimes a community gets to decide whether or not market forces compel them to drive or bus 5 miles to a grocery store and sometimes a community gets to decide whether or not they'd like to support one in their own back yard.

[Chulanowa]

16. Actually, it DOES prevent healthier choices

There's only so much area to build, and when it comes down to buying power, McDonalds will knock the bricks out of any grocer or health food store. In the free market, "competition" is an illusion - the person with the most money to invest will win, every single time.

The residents of an area have every single right to dictate what they want in that area, There is no "nannystate" here - nobody is being prevented from eating all the cancerous lardburgers they want. The community doesn't want such a resturaunt in their area, at least at the moment, and are trying to attract different business instead.

I don't think you fucking understand the jargon you're coughing up. Minus ten points for trying to shoehown the drug war into this subject, too. They don't compare in the least.

[aspergris]

24. riiiight

"There's only so much area to build, and when it comes down to buying power, McDonalds will knock the bricks out of any grocer or health food store. In the free market, "competition" is an illusion - the person with the most money to invest will win, every single time."

what fantasy world do you live in. people with lots of money to invest frequently lose it ALL. MOST businesses fail. heck, frigging donald trump has had TONS of serious failures.

again, you are buying into this anti-capitalist myth that it's evil mcd's and their deep pockets inserting saturated fat into these poor victimized people's bodies! against their will! oh noes!

"The residents of an area have every single right to dictate what they want in that area, There is no "nannystate" here - nobody is being prevented from eating all the cancerous lardburgers they want. The community doesn't want such a resturaunt in their area, at least at the moment, and are trying to attract different business instead."

no, they don't. they don't have the right to DICTATE. they don't have the right to say that "sorry mr evil mcdonald's you can't buy this plot of land because we don't want you here. but tempeh emporium, we'll sell to you."

"I don't think you fucking understand the jargon you're coughing up. Minus ten points for trying to shoehown the drug war into this subject, too. They don't compare in the least"

they most definitely do. it's jsut that authoritarians like you can't see the parallels. that's how authoritarianism and increased govt. power HAPPENS. because people like you see no problem with all these restrictions and govt. paternalism and protecting us from ourselves, because "it's for the children". "we need to save the children". "it's a good cause".

also noted that there was IMMENSE community pressure (noted by clinton etc. in speeches) to ramp up the drug WAR and get those dealers off the streets.

it's really sad that you are so myopic that you can't see that it's always people who want to HELP and protect people from themselves that run into these problems. prohibition, drug war, etc. it's all the same syndrome. people are too stupid and irresponsible, so we need to make these choices for them.

if there is need and demand for more grocery stores, they will WILLINGLY come.

[Chulanowa]

28. Yes, I am right

"what fantasy world do you live in. people with lots of money to invest frequently lose it ALL. MOST businesses fail. heck, frigging donald trump has had TONS of serious failures."

And yet, he remains rich as hell, and there's no real way for someone with substantially less money to compete with him.

"again, you are buying into this anti-capitalist myth that it's evil mcd's and their deep pockets inserting saturated fat into these poor victimized people's bodies! against their will! oh noes!"

You're all over the place, here. Where did I say McDonalds was evil, much less that it's injecting saturated fat into people? If I did, how is that anti-capitalist? McDonalds = Capitalism?

A franchise will roll over any sort of mom and pop effort when they're in competition. The franchise has more money, thus being able to drop their prices even below cost without feeling a serious pinch, with the benefit of driving the smaller business out of business. Even in indirect competition, the franchise is more able to buy up property to establish more outlets. Doesn't even need to take a loan.

"no, they don't. they don't have the right to DICTATE. they don't have the right to say that "sorry mr evil mcdonald's you can't buy this plot of land because we don't want you here. but tempeh emporium, we'll sell to you.""

Yeah they do, actually, as clearly evidenced by the story at hand. They can, and they did. For someone with such an anti-authoritarian bullhorn, you sure seem dead-set against a community having access to self-determination.

"they most definitely do. it's jsut that authoritarians like you can't see the parallels. that's how authoritarianism and increased govt. power HAPPENS. because people like you see no problem with all these restrictions and govt. paternalism and protecting us from ourselves, because "it's for the children". "we need to save the children". "it's a good cause"."

Insults already? No, I'm afraid they don't. The drug war is a federal government effort to fight a number of products and ideas that has resulted in countless deaths, incarcerations, and ruined lives, to say nothing of the taxpayer cost. It has resulted in self-abuse being a twenty-year offense, getting tougher all the time.

This story is about a bunch of consumers deciding what businesses they want in their community, and which ones they don't. They go to the zoning board, make their wishes known, and the zoning board, in its best Jean Luc Picard voice, says "Make it so!"

How the hell is this similar to the drug war? Before you start labeling me as authoritarian, you might want to notice that you're the one claiming that McDonalds should have the authority to make these peoples' choices for them.

"if there is need and demand for more grocery stores, they will WILLINGLY come. "

And they will. In the meantime this community is keeping property open for such an interest. Remember, these stores can't just unfold in the middle of the street.

[CTyankee]

33. It's interesting. I have a summer house in the Door Peninsula in Wisconsin

where NO fast food, bigbox store, coffee shop chains are allowed. No chains of any kind. The clothing stores, restaurants and coffee shops are all locally owned and operated. Same with resorts and motels. So we don't even have Starbucks or Whole Foods either. While the community is definitely not a cheap place to vacation in, there are more modest places to stay and to eat in (and you can tent camp in a beautiful state camp there). I am wondering how "we" got away with this for all these years and no one has successfully raised complaints...

[Sanctified]

6. Thats great let the rich stay fat while the poor starve.

I know that comment will piss off those who think they are saving the poor from themselves but the reality is people who lack economic means can't afford to eat at fancy health restaurants. When you are poor you live on a meager budget which means when you do have the luxury of eating out it's usually something where a whole meal can be gotten for under $5.

[aspergris]

8. also noted

that for the first time in recorded history, the poor are MUCH fatter than the rich. obesity used to be a sign of wealth and power ("man with a stomach") whereas now the wealthy eat couscous and go to the gym.

I have lived and worked in the hood and in very rich areas. the difference is STRIKING in terms of visible obesity. I have also seen people who make just ATROCIOUS choices at the supermarket. buying very few staples (brown rice, eggs, buckwheat, etc.) and tons of processed and fried crap.

the CDC correctly says that about 2/3 of all chronic disease is diet and behavior related (smoking, etc.)

note that I am all for AFFIRMATIVE action to help everybody (who wants) eat healthier, be healthier, etc. i am AGAINST nannystate govt. intervention that bans one type of restaurant.

[madeline_con]

12. Because sugar and fat filled food is cheap.

I live in a racially diverse area. I see the same thing. Poor people are more likely to be overwieght. Studies prove it.

[aspergris]

13. this is true

the fun fact it is a recent phenomenon. i agree that PROCESSED crap is cheap, but unprocessed healthy food is CHEAPER (generally)

but it takes more prep time and effort.

you can eat healthy and cheaply if you cook. it is difficult to do so if you rely on prepackaged and precooked stuff. in that regards, it's much cheaper .

i used to be a personal trainer, and let me tell you there are some people out there with some AWFUL food habits. those are very difficult to break

frankly, the most important thing is how you are brought up. are you taught to respect food? to cook stuff from scratch? to differentiate processed crap from "real" food?

etc.

I am VERY interested in imporving people's food choices, education, etc. i am very AGAINST using the authority of govt. to choose FOR people.

[madeline_con]

14. The fact that many families have a single head of household

who works 2 jobs may contribute. They're dead tired and don't have time or energy to cook from scratch.

[aspergris]

15. that is sadly

part of the problem. but there are always ways.

my wife made a KICKASS brisket yesterday for instance. all it took was 5-10 minutes of prep in the morning. in the evening, it was ready, after crock-potting all day, and it rocked.

the vegetables from our garden made it cheaper and healthy too.

you can make soups from scratch and freeze them and have food for many days.

there are a lot of ways to do some prep for a few hours, and then have dozens of heatable from scratch meals.

you just have to WANT it, and be educated how to do it.

[eridani]

20. And the people whose choices you condemn have crockpots?

And regular work schedules?

[aspergris]

21. i';m not condemning anybody's choices

I am saying they are, like all of us, living with the consequences of their choices.

if i ate what i wanted, i would be rather fat. It's clear I have the genetics to do so. i choose not to.

for most of recorded history, the poor were skinny because they could afford food. that is no longer the case (in the US).

the rich were fat(ter) as a sign of their wealth, their leisure, and their power (belly of a king, etc.)

as a former personal trainer, and as somebody who spent a good portion of my life in the hood, I know pretty well about the food and lifestyle choices people make, and the effects of those choices on one's physique and health.

i don't condemn people for being fat. but i recognize that for all but a very small %age who have metabolic or other disorders, they are fat because of their chosen behavior.

that's unfortunate. but it's also reality;.

like i said, it only took 5 minutes of prep to make a nice slow cooked meal. you can buy a crockpot for about 10-20 bucks. less at a thrift store.

you can buy a 20lb or larger bag of potatoes for a good price / lb or you can buy frozen tater tots, with all that nice added crap and none of the nutritional benefits of the skin

etc.

you make your choices, and you live with them.

[eridani]

26. Yeah, right. People "choose" three crappy minimum wage jobs

--with shifting schedules because they just lack the sense to want one family wage job with benefits.

[aspergris]

27. again

i'm speaking from experience. you are speaking from rhetoric. MOST don't work 3 minimum wage jobs. and most people are fat because of their own choices. it's not mcdonald's long distance injecting saturated fat into their veins.

people live with the consequences of their choices. there are few more obvious ways we can control our destiny than in regards to what we put in our mouth. over the course of our lifetimes, we make THOUSANDS of these individual choices, and they affect us.

i've been poor. i've been... not poor.

in either case, if i simply ate what i wanted, i would be fat. i've trained dozens of trainees. many thought they were destined to be fat. they were wrong.

again, it's more paternalism. it's not people's FAULT that they are fat. it's those three crappy minimum wage jobs, which is just as much a stereotype as reagans' welfare queen, just from an opposite extreme.

do you eat whole grain (i like irish steelcut) oatmeal and nonfat milk powder for breakfast? (under .20 a serving) or do you stick a poptart in the toaster?

again, these choices add up.

[Chulanowa]

30. Ah yes. Fuck the poor, they made their choices

You're giving me a clear demonstration that you have your head busied so deeply that you can see the back of your teeth.

There are lost and lots of people working three jobs to make ends meet. Your anecdotes, as self-supportive as they are, are unfortunately trumped by any number of studies on the subject. Unemployment is down, but so is income - because more people are taking multiple jobs, at lower pay rates.

This translates into lowered food quality - perhaps you're unaware, but when you're plowing three jobs to keep the lights on, buying a beef brisket is what is known as "unnecessary luxury" You'd be lucky to nab a package of chicken thighs to cook some adobo in the same manner.

Lowered food quality = poor nutrition and higher obesity, together with diet-related health conditions.

Your argument is, pretty clearly, they choose to be poor, so they deserve heart attacks and nutritional diseases.

Sure you're on the right forum here?

[madeline_con]

31. There may be other factors at work here.

And you may be assuming something that was not said. Chicken thighs aren't that bad, BTW. They may be higher in fat than the brisket, but are lower than the processed, frozen "chicken patties" that are easier to prepare.

I had a sociology class years ago in which the instructor had us compare quality and prices in convenience stores in low income areas to those in average groceries further away.

Some people are forced to shop for lower quality, higher priced items because they don't have transportation. Stopping at the grocery store on the way home on the bus could mean another hour and a half, and the possibility of not getting to the laundromat (within walking distance) before it closes.



There is also the fact that a lot of convenience foods that are in high fat and salt are easier for latchkey kids to prepare, like the above mentioned chicken patties and Ramen noodles, for instance.

Edited to add: I think what I'm trying to stress is that many poor families' choices are limited, so their choice pool is truncated to a great extent. Keeping fresh foods is not cost effective in the neighborhood convenience stores.

[eridani]

34. Fat is a result of living in a society where most jobs are sedentary

--and which take up most people's time. The only cure for that is moving to Rwanda, which won't do anything for your life expectancy. Not to mention the transportation hassles. When I was poor, one of my jobs was a four hour a day temp job, and it took four hours in addition to that for the round trip bus commute.

I'm now retired, and I have time to do oatmeal. Before that, it was nothing at all--too time crunched.

[fl410]

35. You don't get it. Some people are just too fucking stupid to know what they should eat.

So we tell them. And make it mandatory.
:eyes: :shrug:

[eilen]

22. You would be surprised at how many people don't know how to cook.

Honestly, many young women (not to just isolate and highlight women, but many are still head of household and/or in charge of the family's food pantry and grocery shopping) do not know how to cook. One young lady I met at a job I worked years ago was inordinately impressed by another coworker's leftover lunches. "How did you know how to make that?" was a constant question. It turns out that she and her family ate take-out and McD's outside of the once in awhile spaghetti dinner or home prepared frozen dinners (frozen chicken patties, fried chicken, hamburgers etc.). It was not a surprise the entire family was obese.

My friend explained to her she learned how to make these different dishes growing up in an impoverished farm home. They didn't have the money for prepared foods at the supermarket. She gave her a few recipes for her casseroles. Also, I'd like to point out that this young lady was working in the lowest paid position in the clinic.

Teaching people how to cook everyday food, everyday budget meals is the key to increasing the participation at farmer's markets and healthier diets. Teaching people that there are choices and how far you can go with some choices over others is very liberating. My brother's gf grew up in an relatively poor minority neighborhood in Detroit and her cooking is reminiscent of that background. Much of what she makes is fried or heavy with high fat content. However, even there, she only cooks at home (prepares and eats) three days a week . She works 4 days a week and attends graduate classes on the 5th day. In the past 4 years she has literally gained 100 pounds.

To be sure, when I grocery shop for a family of three and am purchasing enough food for a week; I mostly hit the produce, dairy and meat aisles and barely every purchase frozen or prepared foods. My grocery bill is almost always over $125 easily. When I shop at Aldi's it is a bit lower but then I do have to compromise on food quality (chicken breasts are processed and many times they do not have what it is I need for my menu meals).

For people who are stuggling with planning meals with healthy ingredients and feel that they lack time in to prepare healthful meals, please check out Leanne Ely's Saving Dinner books--she even has one that outlines simple meal preparation techniques for those that grew up eating out of takeout boxes. She has a subscription service that gives you seasonal appropriate meal plans every week that caters to your general palate called Menu Mailers. I receive the Lo-Carb menu but you can utilize any menu once subscribed. It is very rare to have any meal take longer than 15- 20 minutes of prep time. Last night I had a Chicken CrockPot with peppers and tomatoes, the night before we had a Cajun Pork dish. Each week has a crock pot meal and a fish based meal. She also has vegetarian menu mailers. Each provides a shop list and suggestions for breakfast and lunches. It takes at least 2 hours of planning off my to do list. She also has an email newsletter. I highly recommend her stuff. Usual disclaimers apply.

[aspergris]

25. no, i wouldn't

i made that exact point in one of my other posts. and I'm for educating people in how to cook, how to appreciate real food, etc. of course, churches, parents, community groups SHOULD be doing that, but sadly - aren't. not enough.

proactive measures like this - i 100% support.

[eridani]

19. Have you considered that if you have only a hotplate and no refrigerator--

--that staple foods for scratch cooking might be completely useless? Check out Ehrenreich's Nickled and Dimed.

[aspergris]

23. i have

and i know that the average poor person in america has at least 2 tv's, etc.

and a refrigerator.

have you lived in very poor neighborhoods? I have. lack of refrigeration is not a concern for the VAST majority of poor.

and again, many of the obese are buying frozen tater tots, etc. and putting them in the freezer

[Fire Walk With Me]

32. They'd do better to block liquor stores and to improve job markets and social services.