Aide to Sen Jim Webb fround dead from gunshot wound, Brig Gen Tinsley also found dead in

[Democrat 4 Ever]

separate incident. What the heck is going on? Reporte by CLG

News Updates from Citizens For Legitimate Government
30 Jul 2008
http://www.legitgov.org/
All items are here:
http://www.legitgov.org/#breaking_news

Aide to U.S. Senator Jim Webb found dead from apparent gunshot wound 29 Jul 2008 Authorities in Botetourt County this morning discovered the body of a well-known Democratic operative and U.S. Senate aide along U.S. 220, dead from an apparent gunshot wound. The body of Frederick W. Hutchins Jr., 26, of Roanoke was found shortly after 7 a.m. along southbound U.S. 220 by a Botetourt County deputy who had stopped to check on a vehicle parked on the highway's shoulder, according to the sheriff's office. Hutchins was an aide to U.S. Senator Jim Webb, D-Va. Hutchins had been shot in the head, and a gun was found beneath his body, Sheriff Ronnie Sprinkle said.

Air Force brigadier general dies of gunshot wound 28 Jul 2008 An Air Force brigadier general died of a gunshot wound that likely was self-inflicted , a spokesman said Monday. Brig. Gen. Thomas L. Tinsley, the commander at Elmendorf Air Force Base in Anchorage, suffered a gunshot wound to his chest late Sunday night and was pronounced dead within a half hour, said Col. Richard Walberg, who assumed command at Elmendorf after Tinsley's death. "To the best information, it's possible it was a self-inflicted gunshot wound," Walberg said at a news conference. The weapon was likely a handgun. His previous 22-month assignment was executive officer to the Air Force chief of staff, Gen. T. Michael "Buzz" Mosely, who in June resigned under pressure in an agency shake-up. Defense Secretary Robert M. Gates ousted both Mosely, the Air Force military chief, and Air Force Secretary Michael W. Wynne, the agency's civilian head, holding them accountable for failing to fully correct an erosion of nuclear-related performance standards. One concern was a cross-country flight in August 2007 of a B-52 carrying armed nuclear weapons.

[glowing]

1. interesting...

[RC]

2. More timely deaths...

[bemildred]

3. Did they use ratshot? nt

[Lint Head]

4. In Jim Webb's case could this be a message from George?

:dem:

[MiniMe]

5. That was my first thought

[Virginia Dare]

6. Message from the MIC...n/t

[CLG_News]

16. Lest we forget Senators Wellstone and Carnahan.

n/t

[Enthusiast]

94. My first thought also.

Crime family actions.

[katty]

110. just what i was thinking...msg from 'the family'

[OnyxCollie]

7. Another one of Webb's aides tried to bring a gun into the Senate.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=118x136313

Then there's this from Sen. Webb:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17819572

While Webb, D-Va., did not specifically say he’d support a change in the law in the District of Columbia that bans most residents and visitors from carrying or even possessing guns, he did defend the right of people to use guns in self-defense. “I’m a strong supporter of the Second Amendment; I have had a permit to carry a weapon in Virginia for a long time; I believe that it’s important; it’s important to me personally and to a lot of people in the situation that I’m in to be able to defend myself and my family,” he said. Since the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks, he said, “it’s a more dangerous time” for those serving in government. “I’m not going to comment with great specificity about how I defend myself, but I do feel I have that right,” he added. Webb, a Marine veteran of the Vietnam War and former secretary of the Navy, said members of Congress did not have the high level of protection that the president and executive branch officials have. As a result, he said, “We are required to defend ourselves.” When a reporter asked Webb if he considered himself “above Washington D.C.’s gun law,” the Virginian replied that he would not comment on “how I provide for my own security.” When asked if he thought the D.C. law should be changed to allow law-abiding people in Washington to carry weapons, Webb stressed his support for the Second Amendment and added, “I believe the Virginia law is a fair law. I believe that wherever you see laws that allow people to carry (weapons), generally the violence goes down.” Webb, who won by only four-tenths of one percent last November over Sen. George Allen, has made a point of differing with liberal Democrats on the gun issue. Webb argued in his 2004 book “Born Fighting” that 2000 Democratic presidential nominee Al Gore’s “position on gun control cost him the election, not in Florida but in the Scots-Irish redoubts of Tennessee and West Virginia, both of which through history and logic should have been slam-dunk electoral votes in his favor.” Virginia law allows citizens to get a permit to carry a concealed weapon, as long as they are not felons nor have been convicted of a violent misdemeanor.

Nothing to see here. Move along.:tinfoilhat:

[beachmom]

15. Webb grew up in the western part of Virginia where it's normal to have guns

and hunt, etc. In short, Webb comes out of the gun culture of rural America. So, given that, it's not a big deal. Add to that that he was a military man for a long time -- U.S. Marine in Vietnam, graduate of the Naval Academy, etc. -- and it's really not a big deal.

I think we should wait until the police say what has happened. Very sad, though.

[OnyxCollie]

23. These are his aides carrying guns, and why do they need to hunt in the Senate? nt

[annabanana]

8. Is this the kind of ugly the waning of the B*sh years is going to bring us?

Strange unexplained murders on the side of the road? "Apparent suicide" that are never adequately explained to family & friends?

[jmondine]

36. Unfortunately, it's nothing new in this country

It dates back at least to the black ops policies which our country adopted after W.W.II, and I suspect probably had their seeds long before that.

[vanboggie]

38. Just a continuance

There has been a steady stream of suicides before, during and after the * years, usually involving those trying to expose the cabal.
Nothing new, no crimes ever prosecuted, so why would they stop now.

[defendandprotect]

60. Granted things happened before that, but it took off full force with the 1963 coup

on the US government ---

Liberals were in charge and things were gonna change --- plenty --- !!!

Especially for Pentagon, CIA --

Many, many dead since then --- they say that something like 100 lawyers alone in DC were

quickly dead after that November 23rd ---

And then there were many, many more ---

and it CONTINUES ON . . .

[vanboggie]

74. True

I should have included Bush I, beginning with his CIA years. You're right.

[Enthusiast]

95. Anyone that knows where

The skeletons are buried could be in danger.

[blogslut]

9. Who shoots themself in the chest?

That doesn't sound right at all.

[intheflow]

11. And the weapon was "likely a handgun."

WTF? No gun was found at the scene?

[HCE SuiGeneris]

83. Exactly. Most likely suicide by a military General who shoots himself in chest with a disappearing

hand gun.

Happens all the time. Please move along now.

[99th_Monkey]

85. After he shot himself in the chest, he cleverly disappeared the weapon by psychokinesis.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telekinesis

[onenote]

18. not as common as shots to the head, but hardly unheard of

[GreenPartyVoter]

26. I know of someone who did it. It happens.

[Crabby Appleton]

48. According to the CDC, 25.6 % of intentional self inflicted gunshot

wounds are to the upper trunk.

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/ss5002a1.htm#tab5

[slackmaster]

111. A neighbor of my mom's did exactly that about 20 years ago

It was pretty gruesome. He was in the bathtub, and shot himself when he heard his housekeeper pulling into the driveway. (I guess he wanted to make sure someone found him quickly.)

[KharmaTrain]

10. Did Any Of These Men Serve In Iraq?

I'll keep my tinfoil dry for now. I'm more interested in their previous military experience. 26 years old sure sounds like he could have had a tour or two to Iraq. PTSD is a major problem right now...and this regime still ignores it. There are thousands of veterans who fight demons every day and try to hide it...and have no place to get help...especially if they want to keep a career in the military or public service.

[Junkdrawer]

12. Aide to the General who allowed the nukes to travel cross-country by "accident"...

OK....

:tinfoilhat:

[blm]

34. That's the one that screamed out at me, too. Coincidence theorists will no doubt be along

soon to clear things up, right?

[defendandprotect]

61. They're supposedly still "investigating" that one . . .

and about three days ago there was a Yahoo article which reported that three guys

carrying the nuclear codes had fallen asleep at the base which the nukes were

shipped out of --- but don't worry . . . they only had old codes!

Anyway, the article then tied in with the NUKE story and said it was being

investigated.

!!! That was a year ago, wasn't it --- ???




crew of three air force members decided to rest a little and within 15 minutes they were fast asleep - and they slept for hours --

This sounds more like there might have been a little "program" to put these guys to sleep?

[screembloodymurder]

93. I didn't know it was the same base ... wow.

Wasn't one nuke missing? And now, this aide turns up dead.

[CLG_News]

13. Link for Tinsley death, other Minot 'Oddities'

Minot AFB Clandestine Nukes 'Oddities'

[mod mom]

19. sigh...was Tinsley (and Mosely) actually stationed at Minot during those 22 months

or were they the scapegoats for the incident?

Thanks for connecting the "coincidences".

[merh]

35. Pelosi has her crime

she just won't see it, maybe because she doesn't want to meet an untimely death or have anyone she cares about suicided.

[Jim Sagle]

73. Her and how many others?

Is there a well-understood if unspoken threat of death hanging over ALL of official Washington?

And would that explain why a "president" with approval in the 20s gets everything he wants?

Would it also explain why Congress won't impeach him even though their softness has earned them 9% approval?

Just wondering.

[99th_Monkey]

86. All very excellent questions, I must say. As the bodies pile up, it would appear

that the answers are

Yes, yes and yes.

[defendandprotect]

64. dupe

[defendandprotect]

65. We still have no idea what might have been going on with nukes --- to be planted somewhere-???

or to be dropped on someone?

But I can guess who was responsible . . .

[file83]

71. Excellent link!!

That is seriously creepy - all those people dying. Tom Clancy style.

[Peace Patriot]

104. I just reviewed the CLG site and links. It documents only 4 deaths...

Letter writer Lee says 6, but when you go to the news links, one is blank (page gone), and another is a duplicate (Todd Blue, second news story).

I checked out another site, too: http://911review.org/Reports/Missing-Nuke.html

Circa 7/5/07 (possibly died in June)
Adam Barrs, (Airman?), Minot AF
comm/navig 5th Aircraft Maintenance
B-52 Stratofortresses
(car crash, driver Airman Stephen Garrett)

Circa 7/17/07
Westen Kissel, 1st Lt., B-52 pilot, Minot AF
23rd Bomber Wing
B-52 Stratofortresses
(motorcyle crash in Tenn.)

8/20/07: The main Minot warhead incident

Circa 9/10/07
John Frueh, AF Capt, Hurlburt AF Hdqtrs
Spec Ops
(found dead nr rental car, WA;
"no foul play suspected")

Circa 9/12/07
Todd Blue, Airman 1st Class, Minot AF
(cause not in article)

There are 3 other AF deaths mentioned on these sites, but with not enough detail to deem them suspicious or not, or connected to Minot. As it is, I'm not sure how Frueh's death might be linked to Minot. Adding Brig Gen Tinsley (gunshot wound to the chest), it certainly begins to add up, though.

Incidents of nuclear watch crews falling asleep "for hours" certainly raise suspicions. There could have been various things going on, furthering plots to bomb Iran or other misuse of nukes--at Minot and elsewhere. Some deaths are to be expected at a big AF base, of course. But 3 at Minot clustered around the incident (within weeks of it, before and after) seems like a lot. Plus Frueh (if he's connected). Plus, Tinsley's, now--adding quite dramatic punctuation to that particular incident.

Here's quite a good page on the laws/regs that were broken and the various official explanations, concluding with the assertion that only 5 of the 6 nuke warheads that were transported arrived at Barksdale. One is missing (!?):
http://911review.org/Reports/Missing-Nuke.html

[tomp]

14. history of depression, suicidality, recent problems? nt

[defendandprotect]

66. Yeah . . . all of them --- !!!

:eyes:

[Boxerfan]

17. BUZZ BUZZ BUZZ BUZZ BUZZ

Anything stand out to Y'all??

[librechik]

20. Are you telling me this is related to the "nukes loaded on bomber left for 12 hrs on tarmac" story?

Ok, time to put on the tinfoil.

[WhiteTara]

21. was this the aide who took a gun into a federal

building? I seem to recall one of his aides was arrested for carrying a gun into the Senate

[OnyxCollie]

25. Different guy.

See post #7.

[WhiteTara]

118. thanks for the info

very strange that Webb is surrounded by gun toting aides..Washington must be even more dangerous than I imagined.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

22. Let The Insane Irrational Conspiracy Theories Begin!

[Peace Patriot]

37. Hey, it's not our fault that we are reduced to reading entrails, trying to figure out

what the fuck is going on with our government--and especially with people who hold our fate, and the fate of the world, in their extremely unreliable hands. Bush-Cheney's excessive secrecy not only inspires conspiracy theories, it makes conspiracy theories necessary for understanding our government's behavior, and our prognosis for survival.

We NEED creative thinking. We NEED thinking that can penetrate into the 'black holes' in the corporate 'news,' and provide context, background and meaning for the hundreds of disparate 'news' items that get swallowed up in the corporate 'news' river of forgetfulness. In my opinion, it is stupidity NOT to posit conspiracies, in this most secretive and conspiratorial of governments. It was precisely that kind of inattention, blindness and denial, all along the way, in Nazi Germany, that contributed to the Germans being led into disaster. A similar syndrome affected Argentines during Pinochet's horrors--the general run of citizen burying his/her head in the sand--failing to know that thousands of people were being 'disappeared' or refusing to believe that there could be a conspiracy to do that.

Although our situation has significant differences from Germany and Argentina, during those eras, I think the lesson is clear: When government gets this secretive, and this obviously fascist, LOOK OUT!

You warn of "insane," "irrational" conspiracy theories. I think it's insane and irrational--and dangerous--NOT to understand that our government has lost MOST transparency, and is being run by murdering, torturing, thieving bastards, who are most certainly involved in a conspiracy against the American people and others. Who has done what, and how far this conspiracy goes--what are the parameters of it in our political/corporate establishment?--is, to me, the only remaining question. Not whether or not there is a conspiracy. But how deep is it? And--the question Germany had to face, and Argentina, and other countries that have suffered a fascist coup--what do we have to do--what are the critically important actions we can take--to restore our democracy and our country?

People who watch a lot of television FORGET how to "connect the dots." So there may be plenty of false starts on understanding the Bush Junta conspiracy--deadend alleys, misfires, mistakes, wrongful construing of facts, misjudgments, misinterpretations, and some far-out or truly paranoid ideas. I find this much more forgivable than blindness and denial. And it is actually necessary, if we are to have a democracy, to make a lot of free speech mistakes. In a context of real free speech and democracy--which we still have on the internet, God bless its 0-1 soul--the dross eventually flushes out, and the truth emerges.

I also think that it is particularly important--as to conspiracy theories--that we, as a people, get onto government/corporate conspiracies as quickly as possible, because they have the advantage, in controlling the 'news' media and public perception, where they not so much manipulate events as they create plausible narratives of manipulated events. Iraq and the WMDs is a good example. They were going to invade Iraq no matter what, and the only question for them was, how much trouble were the 55% to 60% of Americans who opposed the invasion of Iraq (Feb 03, all polls) going to cause them, and what they had to do, to get away with it? And they had a similar question re our allies (France, Germany and others), and parties like the UN weapons inspectors. Thus, the 'Freedom fries' campaign, to help neutralize France, etc. The normal P.R. function of governments (pushing their own policies) at some point transforms into psyops and propaganda, and then into secrecy and conspiracy, when they are up to no good. This transformation, in the Bush Junta, was very compressed--happened very fast--and good portions of it were likely well thought out, over about a decade's time (the Project For a New American Century). When you find out how far back it goes, you begin to realize that it was, indeed, a conspiracy. The junta has usurped so much power that now there are additional conspiracies--to cover up their crimes, to prevent impeachment, to hide their massive thefts, to obscure who gave the torture orders, to shred all the evidence and wipe all the hard drives (as Karl Rove has done). And, frankly, OperationMindCrime, if you don't understand Rove erasing 5,000 emails, and Libby lying to the grand jury, and Gonzales' hundreds of "I don't recall"'s, and Cheney's secret energy meetings, and the many other instances of massive secrecy, as VERY LIKELY being conspiracies to commit crimes and to cover up crimes, then I think you are blind as a bat. And if this truly unprecedented, staggering level of secrecy is going on, WHAT ELSE IS GOING ON?

You think we just sort of stumbled into Iraq, do you?

The conspiracy for that action alone is sufficient to raise legitimate--and perfectly sane and rational--concern that maybe these fuckwads have conspired/ are conspiring to do other really, really, really bad things as well. And calling it "insane" and "irrational" to think that way contributes nothing to the discussion, and tries to pre-empt discussion before anyone comments, by calling names at the outset.

[frog92969]

62. Thank you

That shit gets old.
Like abusing people who THINK is gonna make everything better.:shrug:

[nashville_brook]

67. so well said. ostensibly we're here to share information and make sense of things.

not shut each other down.

[puebloknot]

77. Yes! "There are none so blind as those who will not see."

I refer not to one particular individual but to the masses of slumbering Americans who get a smirk on their face over the kind of information you just posted.

[Chipster]

82. Some Tinsley Info

• Prior to his current assignment, he was executive officer to the Chief of Staff of the Air Force at the Pentagon.
  
• Tinsley began commanding the 3rd Wing at Elmendorf May, 2007.
  
• "A general who spent nearly two years as the executive officer to the recently ousted Air force chief of staff has died in an apparent suicide at his home in Alaska...Tinsley, the commander at Alaska's Elmendorf Air Force Base, previously worked at the Pentagon under General T. Michael "Buzz" Mosely, who along with Air Force Secretary Michael Wynne, was recently forced to resign."
  
• "Walberg" (the vice commander who assumed command upon Tinsley's death) "said Tinsley was not under investigation or undue stress.
  'As far as stress, sir, this job, by nature of being an Air Force officer in a nation at war, is stressful, he said. 'Undue stress, no.'
  Representatives of the Armed Forces Institute of Pathology will do a report and declare whether Tinsley's cause of death was suicide, Walberg said. Such reports take about 30 days."
  

[99th_Monkey]

87. Very very well said. Thank you for taking the time to write & share it. ~nt~

[Enthusiast]

96. Excellent, Patriot!

We must try to connect the dots. Something stinks to high heaven! We must uncover the dirty operations that have been covered up during the Bush term. Not very likely but we have to try.

[Enthusiast]

97. Not to mention stealing two presidential elections! nt

[Enthusiast]

98. And this is their MO.

"And calling it "insane" and "irrational" to think that way contributes nothing to the discussion, and tries to pre-empt discussion before anyone comments, by calling names at the outset."

The fascists have operatives all over the internet to do just this. They are everywhere and that is no wild conspiracy theory.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

103. Exactly. Anyone who doesn't realize what's going on is a

coincidence theorist.

I've been fascinated by propaganda since I was in my teens, and I've done a lot of reading about it. By now, I'm pretty good at spotting propaganda and disinformation and am aware of the techniques used. The techniques are being used so transparently these days that I have to conclude that the majority of Americans are purposely playing dumb because the truth is too damaging to their ideal of "America as the good guys."

If you remember the Church Commission Hearings (led by the late Senator Frank Church, a true American hero), you'll know that some awfully "crazy" things really happened.

[arcadian]

108. I wish I could recommend a single response, I'd rec this.

OPERATIONMINDCRIME is an ostrich.

[wicket]

113. I'm with you

:thumbsup:

[wicket]

112. I'm with arcadian

Wish I could recommend your response! :thumbsup:

[melody]

119. Well said n/t

[happydreams]

44. Yea, yer right...

let's just all sit with our thumbs up our asses and talk about something else. :eyes:

[annabanana]

46. You are a crazy "coincidence" theorist. . . .

That war sure wasn't about stealing oil from Iraq for the oil companies at all was it?

[HCE SuiGeneris]

81. Ah yes, enter the stalwart rationalist that can't see shit

from his elevated throne perched upon a massively inflated ego. You have become quite the spectacle for all to see in your lofty heights. Too bad their isn't enough oxygen up there to maintain proper brain functions.

[KG]

100. is that just a nice way of saying he's a loudmouth dumbass?

[Peace Patriot]

24. In one of my musings about 9/11, I said I hoped that someone in the AF who knows what

happened with NORAD that day was hiding out in some outpost in Alaska, biding his time, and would eventually come forward and tell us all. Cuz, you know, the NORAD/AF failure to even try to protect our nation's capitol and the Pentagon (!) that day is likely the wildest thread in that tapestry of lies. Just pull it and....*

I was therefore startled to read, herein, that Tinsley got bumped to an outpost in Alaska, after his boss was fired by the Sec for Warmongering, Robert Gates, in what I'm thinking now may have been trumped up charges. Then Tinsley gets suicided, maybe. Hm. It's exactly what I would have expected to happen if a guy who had that knowledge and who had been sent to Siberia maybe got careless with what he knew, or was about to come forward and the bad guys got wind of it.

Both deaths sound like "professional jobs," as they say. Any connection between the two?

----------------------

*Here's a theory: Rumsfeld pulled all NORAD decisions into his own hands in June 01, three months before 9/11 (documented--not a theory). He was the chief perp in preventing protection of the capitol (theory). His actions that day are suspicious. He told media he was "in a meeting" while planes hit the WTC and others were U-turning back to DC, and didn't know about it. Not possible. Bullshit. He had pulled all NORAD decisions into his own hands! Four off-course, incommunicado planes, and he doesn't know?! Next, normal NORAD procedures--routine SOP--suddenly don't work. SOP step 1: scramble jets to pull up next to the errant planes and try to see what's happening, get visuals on the pilot, maybe guide the plane down. Didn't happen. AF jets get into the air too late, get misdirected--which had never happened before in NORAD's history. And the later Cheney (Rumsfeld) explanation is more bullshit. (--i.e., that the decision was whether or not to shoot down commercial airliners; that was the END of the "decision tree" NOT the beginning; first, get AF jets up next to the errant planes). (There is also evidence that an inexperienced NORAD commander was put in charge that day, and that day only; and that a training exercise--training for exactly this kind of emergency--was used to create confusion and delay.)

Part 2 of this developing theory: Rumsfeld resigns in Dec 06 with no change of policy in Iraq. Dumbfuck corporate 'news' attributes his resignation to the 06 elections, the voters' opposition to the Iraq War and Democrats taking Congress. What does this Democratic Congress do? They ESCALATE the war on Iraq, and lard Bush/Cheney with billions more of our non-existent tax dollars to keep killing Iraqis until they sign the oil contracts, and sign agreements for permanent U.S. military protection of those contracts! 70% of the American people opposed to the Iraq War and wanting it ended; they vote, and Congress does the opposite! So 06 was a shuckin jive Diebold (s)selection, to keep the war going. Why, then, did Rumsfeld resign? To fool the American people for a month or so, while the 'Democrats' re-funded and escalated the war? That's a damn tiny 'benefit' for a Rumsfeld resignation. Not plausible. For another thing, has Bush/Cheney ever done anything because it was the will of the American people? No. They couldn't give a fuck what the American people think. So, why did Rumsfeld resign?

Then add this to the mix: the first thing out of Nancy Pelosi's mouth, days after the (s)election, is, "Impeachment is off the table." (What table?!) Impeachment is off some mysterious "table." Weeks later, Rumsfeld resigns--with no change of policy on Iraq! It's his "surge." It's his oil contracts. It's his everything. Why did he resign?

One more thing: Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld were itching to nuke Iran. Pelosi says "Impeachment is off the table" and goes off to the Middle East in the midst of the British sailors' crisis--for big headlines visits Syria, Israel and other countries.

Rumsfeld's resignation could be Iran-related. The British sailors crisis (Iran interdicting British Navy boat in what they said was Iranian waters, and arresting a gaggle of British sailors) smelled like a "Gulf of Tonkin" incident, instigated by the British on behalf of the Bush Junta (trumped up incident with which to start a war). So, what was really going on with the Rumsfeld resignation could have been this: U.S. military insiders (many of whom oppose nuking Iran), or perhaps anti-Bush CIA or MI6 insiders, discovered that Rumsfeld had manufactured this "Gulf of Tonkin" incident, as an excuse to nuke Iran; the Iranians figured it out, or were notified, and immediately gave up the British sailors. Incident de-fused. Pelosi was involved somehow in preventing this war. (Perhaps took word to the Israelis that the war was off; she certainly gave them vociferous public reassurances of continued U.S. support; she also put on a veil and walked in a Syrian marketplace--the message was PEACE.) I don't remember the exact dates, but this all happened in about a four-week period, Nov-Dec 06 (--the (s)elections, "Impeachment off the table," Pelosi off to the Middle East, Rumsfeld resigns).

So, the least of what happened here, in my opinion, is this: Pelosi (and likely a group) traded no attack on Iran for no impeachment. Additional bargaining might have been: Bush-Cheney will leave the White House peacefully when the time comes--for no impeachment. Get rid of Rumsfeld (who was trying to falsely trigger a war with Iran)--for no impeachment.

But there is a another possibility re Rumsfeld's resignation (perhaps combined with the rest): That Rumsfeld was the worst malefactor in the Bush Junta, on many things--head of the 9/11 insider cabal; head of the Office of Special Plans (black ops; Niger-Iran nuke forgeries; outing of Plame and Brewster-Jennings, and possibly the murder of David Kelly; torture; rendition; illicit weapons trafficking; heroine and cocaine trafficking); chief architect of major looting in Iraq by war profiteers; creator of a private mercenary army, etc. Somebody got the goods on him on one or several of his crimes, and this, combined with his trying to trigger a war with Iran--an action that our military, intelligence and political establishments largely oppose (for many reasons--China and Russia being big ones)--resulted in his being ousted, in a bargain having to do with impeachment. (Bush/Cheney of course are guilty on many, and perhaps all, of these things as well--but may have their assess better covered; and/or, people like Pelosi want to protect the legitimacy of this global corporate predator front called "the U.S. government" and thus preferred non-impeachment anyway.)

Clearly, top people in the military and in the intelligence community hated Rumsfeld, and it is not at all out of the realm of possibility that several investigations of him were going on, and that some people within those establishments had gotten evidence on Rumsfeld that could hang him for treason (among other things). That's why this 'suicide' in Alaska pushes my alarm bells. Rumsfeld is not in jail. He is not the subject of any inquiry that we know about, that could jeopardize his freedom. Last I heard, he still had an office in the Pentagon. And there is evidence that he may be involved in skulduggery and war planning against the leftist democracies in South America with all the oil (Venezuela, Ecuador, Bolivia). So he is still free to take measures to protect himself on the worst crimes he might be guilty of. Possibly he is too powerful to indict. Possibly, the best that the 'white hat' forces within our political establishment could do was to prevent war on Iran and get him out of a position where people had to obey his orders (along with curtailing Bush/Cheney with the potential for impeachment).

I know nothing about Brig. Gen. Thomas L. Tinsley, or where he was on 9/11, or what operations he has been involved in, and I have no evidence at all that he knew anything that could have gotten him killed. I DO suspect--strongly suspect--that Rumsfeld was involved with the murder of British weapons expert David Kelly, in the same week as the Plame outings, and for similar reasons--that Kelly knew something really bad about the Iraq War (possibly about a Rumsfeld OSP project to plant nukes in Iraq, after the invasion, to be 'discovered' by the U.S. troops who were 'hunting' for them). I think whacking people as a coverup of crimes, or for political/business purposes, is routine behavior by the Bush Junta. And I would like to know more about Tinsley because of this. Why would a top AF Brigadier General shoot himself?

[Peace Patriot]

27. An AF Brig Gen, intent on suicide, shoots himself in the chest? That's odd.

It's reminiscent of David Kelly--a top scientist--slitting one wrist (minor artery) and then bleeding to death all night, out in the rain under a tree near his home. Their type of suicide is a poor fit to either man.

A further oddity (of many) with Kelly is that he had been IDed as the notorious BBC whistleblower on the "sexed up" pre-war intel, and had been interrogated at a "safe house" and threatened with the Official Secrets Act. The Blair gov't then outed his name to the press, and sent him home without protection and apparently without surveillance. It is not believable that he wasn't being watched. And so, where were his watchers as he bled to death all night, outdoors near his home?

Same week as the Plame outing. Plame outed 7/14/03. Kelly found dead 7/18/03. His office and computers were searched. Then Novak additionally outed the entire Brewster-Jennnings WMD counter-proliferation network 7/22/03.

I don't recall the dates of the nukes on the runway story. I'm going to look it up right now. Could they have been connected to a possible Rumsfeld manufacture of a "Gulf of Tonkin" incident re Iran (the British sailors crisis), in the same month as Rumsfeld's resignation (Dec 06)?

-----

Just looked it up. The cross-country nuke tour from Minot was Aug 07. So it doesn't seem directly related to Rumsfeld's resignation (and top period of danger for nuking of Iran, which I think was during the British sailors' incident--Dec 06). However, there have been MANY irregularities and incidents re nukes at that base. This site has a list of them, for further study: http://www.legitgov.org/minot_afb_nukes_oddities.html

[CLG_News]

109. 'An AF Brig Gen, intent on suicide, shoots himself in the chest?

That's odd.' --Yes, it is.

[Peace Patriot]

28. If Rumsfeld resigned because his "Gulf of Tonkin" for Iran was exposed (by military who

oppose nuking Iran--i.e., possibly the British sailors' incident), and if this occurred in the context of an impeachment bargain ('you don't nuke Iran; we won't impeach you'), it doesn't mean that the plot to nuke Iran was necessarily killed at that point. What we may be witnessing is the 'white hat" contingent trying to keep Bush/Cheney to the bargain, while Bush/Cheney are still trying to figure out a way (set up a way?) to nuke Iran. Bush/Cheney makes a move; Conyers starts holding hearings, etc. So the Aug 07 incident--and other weird stuff at Minot--could still be in this context.

A writer at the CLG site says that the public release of the Minot incident was psyops against Iran--the incident designed to scare them.

(bottom letter by Don Lee E3/EW, US Navy vet, ASWOC 574 Jacksonville FL, Top Secret and other clearances (inactive)):
http://www.legitgov.org/minot_afb_nukes_oddities.html

This would depend on more detail than I presently know. How did it go public? Lee says the military wouldn't let this happen--such swift release of a nuke incident to the press--without go-ahead from the White House.

He also says: "6 people dying within days of a world-record nuclear screw-up is decidedly newsworthy, and suspicious, in itself."

But why would 6 people (more now) be offed, if it was just a psyops stunt? The Bush Junta (and the U.S. gov't in the past) does psyops and other such shit often. It would not be a particularly big scandal if that got known (that the U.S./Bush was flying nukes around to pressure Iran). Most people would shrug it off as SOP (if it was known that that's all it was). It might crimp Bush/Cheney's style a bit with Iran--it would be a secret they wouldn't want known. But murdering more than a half dozen soldiers? If these murders are connected, it would seem likely that a much worse secret would be at issue (like a "Gulf of Tonkin" incident--manufactured incident--and subsequent nuking of Iran--especially if there had been a bargain NOT to nuke Iran, in an impeachment negotiation).

[mod mom]

32. I had assumed w the Minot incident that instead of flying nukes around,

they might be used for more nefarious actions. The neocons have written about the need for "new Pearl Harbor and it worked for them once. Why not use it again. My fear was those nukes were to fall into the wrong hands w/o leaving the US.

[Peace Patriot]

39. THAT could be motive for offing 6 of those directly involved in the Minot incident.

If the deaths are connected (and, how many more deaths directly connected to that incident have to occur before this stops being a conspiracy theory and starts being common sense?), then the cause needs to be greater than, say, exposure of a dangerous little stunt to scare Iran. Tinsely's death widens the circle to those who might have been scapegoated for what was made to look like a dereliction of duty, but was something yet worse--a potential use of the nukes for unjust war or a political purpose. All these deaths, of course, will make it very hard to track the orders and decisions. It's unlikely that the pilots and loaders knew very much--but we don't know, and will likely never know, unless they told others. What they most likely would have known would be who gave them orders, HOW things got fucked up (how their procedures failed), WHO fucked them up (a la the failure to scramble AF jets and the NORAD mock attack on 9/11)--in the case of pilots, perhaps, what they thought their mission was--and rumors and innuendos and other things they may have picked up, that could point the way through the chain of command. And where was Tinsley in the chain of orders and decisions?

If you do too much dirty work for a mafia-like organization, your very existence can become a threat to the biggest gangsters and profiteers. You can, of course, be completely innocent and be a threat, if you know something. You could be a one-time cooperator in a plot or its coverup, say, in exchange for a later promotion or advantage, or in response to blackmail (by this all-spying government). But there is also the other end of it. Tinsley could have been real Bush-dirty, took the fall for them, and became an expendable threat.

As I understand it, the AF has been the most gung-ho pro-Iraq War, pro-Afghanistan war, pro-"war on terror," pro-Bush/Cheney of the armed services--with all their many new toys to play with (on Iraqi/Afghani wedding parties, etc.) They've been in the game a long time, what with the "no fly" zone bombings of Iraq since Bush I. (I think they also bombed Ecuador, recently, killing 25 people without trial--suspected FARC guerrillas in Ecuador for a hostage release--and almost started a war between Colombia and Ecuador.) They are the most likely service to have Bushite conspiracy officers. And Tinsley was way high up in the hierarchy. A good candidate for conspirator himself, as well as for blackmail. Maybe largely innocent and took the fall, for career reasons. (But why kill yourself for that?) Maybe objected and knew something--and got whacked for it. Maybe was so pressured that he broke, under the strain, and took his own life--and those pressuring him are indirectly responsible. I stress the "maybe" on that one--pressured suicide--because that was the B.S. whitewash used in David Kelly's murder (--that he couldn't take the gov't pressure on him for being a whistleblower, and those naughty little Blairites really laid it on him--'tsk-tsk, now boys!'). And it could have been an almost entirely personal matter, connected to the nuke mistake only peripherally or not at all. We don't know enough. But--as with Kelly's murder four days after Plame was outed--there is just too much coincidence, with these six other deaths, to dismiss it, or to buy into official explanations. The corpses around Bushville are piling up--on top of the Mt. Everest of dead Iraqis. I think it's time we had a new branch of government, called The Court of Bush Inquiries, with adequate funding through the end of the century, to sort it all out.

[screembloodymurder]

99. The links do not support the assertion that there were six deaths.

I find only two deaths and no direct connection between the deaths and the nukes.

[Peace Patriot]

115. I agree. 3 at Minot. 1 from FLA base. Maybe some others. Plus Tinsley.

See my post above (added later). I checked the CLG and the 9/11 site and their links pretty carefully. CLG documents 4 deaths, 3 at Minot (with 2 of those B-52 related--pilot and maintenance, and the 3rd unknown job). But the 3 at Minot are clustered around warhead incident date (as is the FLA one). With Tinsley, it seems like a lot. I don't know if anybody knows the personnel manifest for the incident. Could be random deaths, but Tinsley's strange death sure makes you wonder. Also, the soldiers falling asleep events.

[Snazzy]

92. Navy: MoD moves captain in Iran captives affair

Navy: MoD moves captain in Iran captives affair
Peter Walker and agencies
The Guardian, Tuesday July 29 2008

A Royal Navy commander has been removed from his ship after 15 of his sailors and marines were captured by Iran last year. Cmdr Jeremy Woods, captain of the frigate HMS Cornwall, had been moved "to a post where his talents and experience can be used to best effect", the Ministry of Defence said. A spokesman denied the decision was connected to events in March last year, described at the time by the head of the navy as a "bad day" for the service.

Iranian revolutionary guards captured the seven Royal Marines and eight sailors at gunpoint after they left the Cornwall in a small vessel to search a ship in waters between Iran and Iraq. Iran - which insisted the group was in its waters, something the UK denied - held them for 13 days, before their release in a publicity exercise orchestrated by the Iranian president, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad.

The navy's embarrassment was heightened by the way the crew appeared willing to be paraded before the world's media in Iranian-provided suits, shaking Ahmadinejad's hand and smiling.

....

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2008/jul/29/military.iran

Interesting timing per your theories. Yesterday's exec order further neutering the CIA is also interesting. http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x3416726

[mod mom]

30. "Conyers: Impeachment If Bush Invades Iran" (the Trade-off you suggest)

PP, I have long wondered if they were holding the threat of impeachment over * to help prevent WWIII.

I would love to hear greater detail on the aide to Sen Webb, as well.

Conyers: Impeachment If Bush Invades Iran
March 19, 2008 11:30 AM


Speaking on Tuesday, Rep. John Conyers said that serious legal challenges to the Bush administration would not be off the table both before the president left office and after.

The Chairman of the House Judiciary Committee said he would pursue articles of impeachment for the president should he pursue war in Iran without Congress' approval.

"If Bush goes into Iran, he should be impeached," said Conyers. "And we've sent him a letter to that affect."

Conyer's office had not sent a copy of the letter to the Huffington Post at the time of this article's publication.
-snip

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/03/19/conyers-impeachment-if-b_n_92329.html

[FogerRox]

41. Blair told Bush to get his 2 carriers out of the Persian Gulf

The most important part of the Cornwall incident. And you leave it out ? ..........

[Peace Patriot]

57. I didn't know that, FogerRox! Do tell--or give me links. Thanks for the info.

Was it--as it sounds--a Blair/Bush parting of the ways on nuking Iran? I figured the Europeans might not look too kindly on being upwind of Bush/Cheney's armageddon. But I really didn't know this about the U.S. carriers, that Blair somehow got some sense knocked into him. And I didn't even know it was called "the Cornwall incident." (Was that the name of the British ship?)

[Peace Patriot]

59. Just found one of your posts on this, FogerRox! Am reading.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x3188430

Did the incident happen in March 07? Looks like it. So my timeline should be revised: Dems win Congress Nov 06, Pelosi says "Impeachment off the table" days afterward, Rumsfeld resigns Dec 06, then...a stretch of time, the Cornwall incident March 07 (around which time Pelosi went to the Middle East, right in the middle of this incident, as I recall). I am embarassed that I got the date of this incident wrong. Should have looked it up.

[jwirr]

75. Brits have more than one reason not to want Iran nuked. Many EU

countries get their oil from Iran. I think I read that in one of Chalmers Johnson's books.

[defendandprotect]

68. Well, the miliary tapes make it clear that an ordinary soldier picks this up immediately ---

that it's pretty far fetched for him to to believe that there's an actual event happening

exactly like the "practice" they're running --- !!!

He gets it immediately ---

So -- I'm sure many others got it ---

They'd all be wise to spill the beans before they're all dead ---

Joining with these guys is like joining organized crime --- they're going to kill you

afterwards if it's a big job --- either to protect themselves or to avoid a big cut

in their profits ---

[AntiFascist]

117. K&R, I recommend this post !

That is one of the most well-grounded CT explanations I've seen yet. I've never trusted Rumsfeld either, starting with Gulf War I. Look into his history with the neoconservative movement and involvement with Cheney (outlined in Hijacking Catastrophe). Read American Judas:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=103&topic_id=66773&mesg_id=66773

Whatever happened to Bush's much-trumpeted "era of responsibility?" These guys are not only chiselers, hustlers, hypocrites and war profiteers--they're a bunch of gutless wonders as well. So you'll pardon us if we are just the tiniest bit cynical about the "moral arguments for war" and other such buckets of warm spit this gang is now forcing down the world's throat.(http://www.counterpunch.org/floyd03042003.html ) It’s bad enough for Rumsfeld to profit off selling nuclear equipment to North Korea. But it doesn’t end there, the organizations involved in this transaction link back to Halliburton once again. ...

[AlCzervik]

29. Another article here from Wired, pretty sad, they mention two others.

http://blog.wired.com/defense/2008/07/air-force-offic.html

[Ichingcarpenter]

31. Charles Riechers' autopsy was never released

Or I couldn't find it he was involved with the Air Force tanker procurement
that McCain supported. Some of the facts of his suicide were questionable.

I wanted to know if any bruises were found on the body.

[Peace Patriot]

40. The Wired article mentions Charles Riechers, and I wonder about this one, too.

"Charles Riechers, a former top Air Force acquisition official, committed suicide last year after a sadly flawed newspaper article (link) asserted that he had been given a 'no work contract.'"
http://blog.wired.com/defense/2008/07/air-force-offic.html

Since when does an AF officer commit suicide over a wrong article? Wouldn't a correction be a more likely response?

The referenced link: http://blog.wired.com/defense/2007/10/worst-job-in-th.html

The Washington Post did it. Natch. They're real Bush dirty. So if the Bush Junta wanted to pressure, blackmail, smear somebody, for some nefarious purpose, they can count on their buds at WaPo to do the dirty work.

Still, he had what, in Pentagonland, was a normal contract. Just had to call them up and get a retraction. So what's up with this one? Could be personal. We don't know.

The Bushites have a way of sliming everything they touch. It's not that Washington wasn't corrupt before them. It's just that people are drowning in it now. All of us are drowning in it, in fact. It is the biggest, stinkiest cauldron of corruption ever devised by mankind.

I was thinking of this, back in time a ways, when I first started reading about military jag lawyers who had put up a courageous, behind-the-scenes struggle against torture and detention without trial. I thought of all the young officers and soldiers who have been morally sullied by Bushfuck policies, all their ideals of honor, and their good intentions, crushed under foot and their faces smeared in the shit. To destroy a young person's honesty and humanity has to be one of the worst of crimes--worse even than killing them.

-----------

Well, all I can say is...

THROW DIEBOLD, ES&S AND ALL ELECTION THEFT MACHINES INTO 'BOSTON HARBOR' *NOW*!

Cuz that's the heart of the problem, in my opinion. What was bad was made far worse by 'TRADE SECRET' vote counting. It was rendered unfixable by democratic means.

[wildbilln864]

33. *kick & r'd! nt

[fla nocount]

42. A military man, a general, commits suicide by shooting himself in the TORSO?

Unbelievably stupid to even debate the matter, he was murdered.

Weez be leavin soon ya see, so weez be moppin up, jes moppin up.

[onenote]

49. maybe he had a pretty face he didn't want to mess up.

[Crabby Appleton]

50. The CDC says about 25% people do

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=3701080&mesg_id=3704367

[fla nocount]

51. Are those the same 25% that watch Faux and support Bush?

People that mean business are going to take the money shot and not worry about what they'll look like at the viewing.

Remember, we're talking about someone who presumably was knowledgeable about death and firearms.

[happydreams]

43. I wonder what Hutchins was working on? Was he getting to close...

to something sensitive?

We need to find out this guys history, he sounds like, rest his soul, a hard-working guy trying to do good
This is so sad. The poor guy was only 26 years old.

It could also be a warning to Webb.

[Breeze54]

45. Hutchin's family wants answers.... (article from VA) --

Webb staff aide Hutchins is found shot dead

http://www.roanoke.com/news/roanoke/wb/171217

snip-->

Hutchins' family declined to comment. His uncle, the Rev. Bob Hutchins, said,

"We don't feel like we can say anything right now until we get some more answers."

Botetourt sheriff's Maj. Delbert Dudding was not able to say whether the incident
was a suicide or the result of foul play.

"Any time you get a gunshot wound, you work it all the way until you can rule anything
out," he said, adding that for now he simply considers it "an unnatural death."

---------------------

[Ichingcarpenter]

47. Good update on what the family wants.... thanks n/t

[Breeze54]

52. I'm glad they're investigating and not calling it a suicide.

It sounds like he was a smart, successful and happy person.

[Medium Baby Jesus]

53. Whole lot of crazy in thread (nt)

[CLG_News]

54. Lots of 'oddities' associated w. the Minot nukes story. n/t

[Olney Blue]

69. Welcome to DU, News!

:hi:

[lovuian]

55. There is a freakin war going on folks behind the scenes

this is really getting ugly

[nikto]

76. "There is a freakin war going on folks behind the scenes"

It sure does look like that, doesn't it?

Amazing.

Things get weirder every day.

[DemoTex]

56. The regime backs out shooting. It has to. Look for much more of this.

Cornered like rats. Shooting like fools.

[HCE SuiGeneris]

78. Cheney hasn't been seen in public...

I'm sure he has been very busy behind the scenes. Festering evil lurking behind the curtains.

[SoCalDem]

79. Cheney.. the last thing you ever see?

[HCE SuiGeneris]

84. That is priceless"

He'll show dat silwee wabbit who da big dick is...

[defendandprotect]

58. Wow . . . that's a lotta stuff . . .!!!! Two more "suicides," right --- ???

[lovuian]

63. are they killing off the witnesses to the B52 Bomber

incident evidentally the Brigadier General knew too much

he probably could be traced to Cheney and BlackWater

trying to steal our own nukes and selling them

[Muttocracy]

70. Another local news story on Hutchins - was outside car when found - early morning death

http://www.wdbj7.com/Global/story.asp?S=8753934&nav=menu368_2

[nikto]

72. MURDER, plain & simple. CUI BONO?

Cui Bono?

Oh yes, The Rightwing, again.

So many coincidences!

America is being run by a GOP/Konservative Crime Gang.


That's why the cui bono never frikkin' changes???!!!?

[MonkeyFunk]

80. What's your evidence?

that's a pretty strong charge.

Sounds like suicide to me in Webb's aide's case.

[Common Sense Party]

88. Evidence? We don't need no steenkin' evidence!

We are creative thinkers.

[Peace Patriot]

101. So, explain this to me, without some creative thinking...

Bush/Cheney's list of high crimes and misdemeanors has gotten so long it could circle the earth. The American people give the Democrats 30 new seats in the House, and try their best to change the Senate (get it down to 50/50, with only 1/3 of the Senate up for re-election), in the hope that the Democrats will clean this godawful mess up. Big triumph. Nancy Pelosi takes the gavel...and the first thing out of her mouth is...

"Impeachment is off the table"???!!!

It's things like that that uncreative thinkers can't deal with. There has got to be a reason she said that. It was apropos of nothing, as far as we know (as to FACTS). WHAT "table"? When was this decided? By whom?

Major events are going on behind the scenes, out of sight of the theoretical rulers of this land--the American people--and we are left to read the entrails. This is not right. But this IS the situation.

You want to know if your son or daughter is going to be doing nuclear war cleanup in Iran, or be slogging through the Amazon jungle getting shot at for Exxon Mobil? You have to GUESS! If you want to try to stop it, or know how to survive it, you have to FIGURE OUT what the fuckers are going to do NEXT.

That is not "insane," "irrational" conspiracy theorizing. That is COMMON SENSE.

I did NOT say people should ignore facts. I said that we have the most secretive, conspiratorial government in our history, and we would be STUPID not to apply creative "connect the dots" thinking, to try to figure out what's going on. Our lives and well-being on at stake, after all--not to mention the lives and well-being of millions of people who have been affected (dead, tortured, impoverished, displaced) by the actions of our goddamn government, most of which are decided IN SECRET.

The trouble with remarks like yours is that they encourage people to sit back and quietly accept the consensus of the corporate 'news' monopolies and war profiteers and our corrupt political establishment as the only way to interpret the given facts. THEY say Iraq has WMDs, and we all bow down.

It's stupid-making. Cuz guess what? They don't give us all the facts. Their account of things is full of black holes where information should be. We have to connect one black hole with another, to try to figure out when our little universe is going to go boom--or what this corpse or that corpse with a bullet through its head might have known.

When I learn new relevant facts, I amend my thinking. I just learned that the Cornwall incident was in March 07. I had compressed it in my mind with Rumsfeld's resignation, but it was three months later. Is that fact relevant to my theory that Pelosi and the 'white hats' have bargained "no war on Iran for no impeachment" with Bush/Cheney? Have I interpreted Rumsfeld's resignation correctly? Could the Cornwall incident (if it was meant as the "Gulf of Tonkin" to justify nuking Iran)--still have been one of the reasons he was pressured out? Did he set it up--and it merely unfolded later? Was it, instead, Cheney, continuing Rumsfeld's agenda? With no change of policy in Iraq, what did Rumsfeld's resignation MEAN? What prompted it? There is plenty of evidence that the military and political establishments oppose the NeoCon plan to nuke Iran. Pelosi's trip to the Middle East, in the middle of the Cornwall incident, was also very strange. Was it related to Rumsfeld's resignation three months before? And if it wasn't Iran that Rumsfeld resigned over, what was it?

What do these facts add up to? How to analyze them, when most of what is going down is obviously going down behind the scenes?

Historical analysis, political analysis, crisis analysis all require CREATIVE THINKING, especially when crucial facts are withheld, or when the government lies and lies and lies, like this one does. Yes, it can lead to airy nonsense. But sometimes airy nonsense--aka, thinking "outside the box"--can lead you back to reality and the facts with a fresh perspective that illuminates the facts.

Someone's skepticism, upthread, about the "6 deaths" connected to the nuke warhead incident, has prompted me to look into what is known about those deaths more carefully. I will then apply CREATIVE THINKING to the black holes of missing information--alert, also, to DIS-information--and ask myself again: Are people connected to that incident being systematically assassinated? And, if I think that is true--or may be true--WHY?

I had not thought much about this incident, because I figure that incompetence is routine in BushWorld. When you appoint and promote people on the basis of their obeisance to the Bushfuck agenda, or their Bible reading, the whole infrastructure of the country goes haywire. Missing some nuclear warheads is what I would expect of this fucked up administration. They may blow us all to hell BY MISTAKE. And there is nothing much we can do about it--except to throw Diebold, ES&S and all election theft machines into 'Boston Harbor'! (--if we survive long enough to do that, and can fix our democracy, and start electing real representatives of the people).

However, Tinsley's strange death prompts me to wonder if there was more to it than mere incompetence (the 9/11 question, actually). What could cause a Brig General to kill himself? And with a shot to the chest? (Did he have a quarrel with his wife--and she shot him? Maybe.) It actually doesn't look like a professional hit--whereas the Webb aide's bullet through the head does. (But, what if they are connected, and the shooters were instructed to make them look different?) We don't know. We really can't trust even the basic facts of anything we read from corporate 'news' sources. We don't know if it's coming from the Bush-CIA or what. But when people like this take a bullet--in the midst of the most secretive and criminal regime we have ever suffered--we MUST ask these questions, seeks answers, thoroughly vet official information, and construct theories.

I keep coming back to the ovens. You're sitting innocently in your home in Germany in, oh, 1941. The trains are running on time. You have a full belly. Life is good. Yeah, there's a war going on, but it doesn't touch you that much. The papers say the "surge" is going well. You have food, clothing, a job. Your kids are doing well. And it sort of grazes your consciousness that the shoemaker you've always gone to is not there any more, down the street. You have to find a new shoemaker. And the people next door suddenly moved out, but you didn't see it, and you don't know where they went. Your "conspiracy theorist" commie son comes home from the university with wild theories. You don't credit him. How could they be systematically herding Jews onto trains and taking them away to death camps? Ridiculous.

When fascists take control, they work in SECRET--because their goals are BAD. They lie. They propagandize. They try to give people the illusion of safety. They are stealing elections. They are assassinating leftists. They are rounding up the Jews and others. And you don't even know it because life is good, and "conspiracy theories" are silly.

Fascism IS a conspiracy! It is the conspiracy of bad, crazy, power-hungry people in government with corporate businesses--for the disempowerment of ordinary people, the majority. And when it gets out of control--with no "checks and balances"--where we are now, with Bush-Cheney--really, really, REALLY bad things can happen. And they have happened--slaughter of a million Iraqis, the torture of prisoners, massive government spying, herding of illegal immigrants (brown people) into detention centers, errant nuclear warheads flown around the country "by mistake," shredding of the Constitution, pending economic collapse.

We are different from Germany in many ways. But the lesson is there. If you close your eyes to the conspiratorial nature of fascist government, you are toying with disaster. And it takes a certain amount of CREATIVE THINKING to bump you out of your comfortable complacency, so that you can SEE what's going on: That shoemaker whose shop is now closed up was Jewish. So were the neighbors. Where did they go?

A number of people connected to that nuke warhead incident have turned up dead. Are their deaths connected? Were they murdered for something they knew? Creativity does not mean fantasy. It is the ability to see through--or see around, to the back of--the given, accepted, consensus reality dictated by THE AUTHORITIES. It's not as if "the Authorities" in this country haven't lied to us, time and time again. Are they lying about this? If so, why? Are they killing these people to cover something up? What? And how does this inform us about the stability of our country and our government, and our own and others' safety? What information can we trust? And what can we, as citizens, do to get our country back? These are reasonable questions, and, given the unreliability of "the authorities" in this country, CREATIVE THINKING is one very important tool in trying to answer them.

-----

"Evidence? We don't need no steenkin' evidence! We are creative thinkers." --Common Sense Party

Wrong. It is the Bushites who "don't need no steekin' evidence"--to invade another country and slaughter its people, to imprison thousands without charge, to torture helpless prisoners, to rip up the Geneva Conventions, to spy on your reading habits in the library and your emails and your credit card purchases, and to pick you up in the middle of the night, and "render" you to a torture dungeon half way round the world, and never tell anybody where you are or what you are accused of.

George Bush "don't need no steenkin' evidence" to do any of this. Blackwater "don't need no steenkin' evidence" to kick down doors and start shooting people in Iraq. The Bush Air Force "don't need no steenkin' evidence" to bomb wedding parties. The Bush DoJ "don't need no steenkin' evidence to throw Democratic governors into the slammer. And Karl Rove sure "don't need no steenkin' evidence" sitting around on RNC servers to indict him for election fraud. "The evidence" is being shredded, as we speak. And you don't need to be a particularly creative thinker to understand what that means.

[HCE SuiGeneris]

102. You are a bastion of sanity for me, Peace Patriot.

Those so quick to discount any ideas that don't parrot the official news releases from this mal-administration and their lap dog media, make me very uncomfortable. I can only wonder if it is lack of intellectual curiosity, or... intentional obfuscation cloaked as "common sense".

[Lydia Leftcoast]

106. Just some supporting evidence about how secretive the Nazis were:

When I was a teenager in the late 1960s, we visited some relatives who lived in a small town near Frankfurt. They had fled East Prussia, the easternmost province of prewar Germany at the end of World War II. Here's there story of what happened:

They (my grandmother's aunt and two of her daughters, one unmarried, one a war widow) were located away from any significant fighting, and the radio and newspapers were constantly telling them how well the war effort was going and that victory would come any day now. They started to hear distant artillery fire and assumed that it was the German army making a final push against the Soviets. Then one day they looked out their front window and saw streams of people coming through their village. They asked what was happening, and the people told them, "We're fleeing the Russians. They're only about 50 kilometers away, and they're slaughtering and raping and looting."

My relatives were astonished. How could this be when the radio and newspapers all said that Germany was winning the war? But obviously, this was no time to stick around. They hurriedly packed a couple of suitcases and joined the refugees fleeing west.

Now if the German propaganda apparatus was able to keep such a major secret in those days of relatively primitive communications, imagine what an ill-intentioned government could do today with the broadcast media controlled by a few major corporations, most of whom are military contractors, and the ability to send anonymous agents to websites to spread propaganda while posing as ordinary people? We know from the Church Committee hearings that the CIA set up fake companies, had mainstream journalists on the payroll, and lied about everything imaginable. After nearly 30 years dominated mostly by Reagan and the Bushes, do you think the CIA has repented its evil ways?

[malaise]

120. That is one brilliant post

Thank you.

[electricmonk]

89. Updated story

Questions linger in death of Webb aide

My Mom worked for 20+ years at the Medical Examiner's office that's doing the autopsy and they do good work there so I'll take what ever they conclude at face value. Of course it's possible their results could be inconclusive.

[sofa king]

90. There's been an upsurge in crime around these parts.

Just this weekend a bank in my town was robbed here in Rockbridge County, the first such robbery in 40 years. Even though the circumstances lean toward suicide, it wouldn't be wise to rule out crime in a region quickly sliding into economic depression.

[Connonym]

91. and let's not forget the many US soldiers who have allegedly died by their own hand

especially the female soldiers who rape and beat themselves prior to pulling the trigger. I've always liked to believe that people were basically good but I'm starting to reconsider that belief. People will clearly do just about anything to get and obtain wealth and power.

I'm far less afraid of a street criminal than I am of what is really no more than organized crime at the higher levels of our government.

[bean fidhleir]

116. People *ARE* basically good. It's the minority in whom socialization doesn't "take"

that cause *all* the problems. And it's the isolated many who think they're all but alone in their outrage who let the psychopathic minority get away with their crimes.

[Blue_In_AK]

105. Everyone here was shocked about Tinsley.

He seemed like a very upbeat sort of guy, active in the Anchorage commuity, and loved by his peers. The investigation is still ongoing, but the gunshot wound appears to be self-inflicted.

[SidneyCarton]

107. There is obviously plenty of fodder here for a CT.

The problem is, they may actually be right here. The screw up with the nukes likely needs some degree of cover-up. As to Webb's aide, there are a lot of questions that need answering. Questions dealing with Mr. Hutchins' finances, his emotional situation, the pressures put upon him by his job, his personal relationships. Suicides come from a lot of different sources, and as times continue to worsen, we can expect an increase of suicides as a result.

However, if none of these issues clear, we must begin to consider that there truly is something less than kosher at work here. Unfortunately, considering the way that Bush and Cheney have locked up Washington, and the fact that few actually stand up or really try to dig (with bodies piling up, one can possibly understand) it is likely that once again we will have to resort to tea leaves and oujia boards in order to get any real information.

sigh.

:tinfoilhat: :scared: :tinfoilhat:

[AngryAmish]

114. Cheney did it

[MinM]

121. The 'Hits' just keep on coming:

Dead Microbiologists
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=3723620&mesg_id=3725907

Anthrax, Bruce Ivins Case Research-Resource Thread - Update & Rate Please
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x3728633