Orson Scott Card further reveals his whackadoodliness

[DavidDvorkin]

http://mormontimes.com/ME_blogs.php?id=1586

[n2doc]

1. This from a guy who once wrote a book about a giant worm screwing a woman

In fairly graphic detail....

[Greyskye]

24. Which book was that?

Sounds more like a Piers "The Hack" Anthony book I had the great misfortune to read many years ago. :shrug:

[n2doc]

64. Wyrms

Apparently there is even a comic book spinoff (go figure)...

The book wasn't that bad as far as his fiction goes, but nothing to write home about either.

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51MPRW4AQRL._SL500_BO2,204,203,200_PIsitb-dp-500-arrow,TopRight,45,-64_OU01_AA240_SH20_.jpg

[antigop]

2. Why are his books "increasingly used in schools"? n/t

[Mr. Blonde]

3. Because kids will actually read them

Several kids in my class said "Ender's Game" was the only book they ever read.

[antigop]

4. Whatever happened to classics such as "Huckleberry Finn" and "Tom Sawyer"? n/t

[Mr. Blonde]

6. Some schools are skittish

about all of the racial slurs in those books. And what is the point when kids won't read them? I got to thinking about it and things only got worse from Ender's Game. The regular senior English class read Harry Potter.

[antigop]

8. "What is the point when kids won't read them?" Um, the teacher assigns it ...

and if the kids don't do the assignment, they get a zero.

There are LOTS of good classics to read-- they don't need to be reading this kind of stuff for school.

They are called CLASSICS for a reason.

edit to add> Caving into what kids want isn't solving anything. If they won't read the book, well that's just too frikkin' bad -- give them a zero. They need to learn discipline.

[MadHound]

13. I sincerely hope that you're not in the teaching profession

Judging by your attitude, thankfully I don't think that you are.

Kids need to learn lots of things, and getting them to learn to read is of primary importance. Assigning them books that they have no desire to read is not going to encourage reading, in fact quite the opposite. Forcing them to do so with the threat of failure hanging over their head isn't going to help, in fact it will simply make the reading process that much more disliked by certain students. And whoops, there goes another child's chance to be a life long reader down the drain.

Classics are great and fine and all that, and there is still a substantial place for them in the classroom. But there is also a large place for the student's own choice of reading material.

[antigop]

16. Fine-- let them read this kind of stuff on their own if they want

But to substitute this kind of stuff for classroom assignments instead of classics is ridiculous.

I guess we should let kids skip geometry, algebra, and trig, too, because they are "disliked by certain students"?

[MadHound]

20. Like I said earlier, you're not in the educational field, it's obvious

It's a standard practice for a teacher to let students choose certain books that they wish to read, a practice that was in effect when I was in school(forty years ago). Most kids either don't know or don't care about an author's politics, all they care about is whether the book is a good read. If it is, great, it further encourages them to read more. Now if you want to argue whether Card is a good author, that's a different matter. But many students like his work, and if they're reading, that's always a good thing.

When you start establishing political criteria for reading selection, then you're walking that line of fascism.

Establishing a classics only ciriculum is all fine and good for a liberal arts college, but it doesn't work in K-12. Besides, one person's trash is another person's classic. All you have to do is look at authors like Fielding, Chaucer and Shakespeare to see that.

[antigop]

25. I'm not talking about establishing political criteria for reading selection

I'm talking about what the kids should be reading -- they should be reading decent literature, not this kind of crap as REQUIRED READING ASSIGNMENTS. If they want to read this stuff on their own, fine, but to continually require this type of stuff as REQUIRED READING TO THE EXCLUSION of the classics is a disservice to the students.

For kids to graduate from high school without any introduction to classical literature is ridiculous.

(And I notice you didn't answer my question about algebra,trig, etc.)

I'm sick and tired of the required crap that our school district forces down the kids' throats.

"Ender's Game" is required summer reading for freshmen pre-AP in our school district. There are much better things the kids can and should be reading.

<edit to add> If all we do is cater to what students want to do, most of them wouldn't get a very good education.

[Greyskye]

58. required *SUMMER* reading

I just noticed that you are upset that this is on the required summer reading list. Do you really expect them to read a 50+ year old book that they have zero context for during their summer off? Sure, have the kids read some 'classic' books during the year, when the teachers can provide context and have discussion groups, but over the summer?

Talk about a buzz-kill. Nice job getting kids to loathe reading there. :eyes: Encourage them to get in the habit of reading for enjoyment, and you are doing them a much bigger service then forcing them to read something that they have no ability to relate to will.

[antigop]

18. And , yes, I have been a teacher. n/t

[MadHound]

22. Thank goodness that's in the past tense

With your authoritarian demeanor that you're displaying here I shudder for the success of your students.

[antigop]

26. Nope-- I subscribed to the philosophy that kids live up to people's expectations of them

And if people expect that students can't or won't find the classics interesting, then the students won't find them interesting.

And if people expect that students just "can't handle" the classics because they are just "too demanding", well, the students will feel that they just "can't handle" classics because they are too "demanding".

<edit to add> We should stop kowtowing to kids who want an easy way out. This is not going to prepare them for college.

[melm00se]

60. times change

and books can and do earn the title "classic". What did they read as classics in 1904? or 1875? or 1950?

Folks don't seem to like Cards' politics or religious beliefs so what he writes can be a classic?

Huxley advocating taking hallucinogens which some people disagreed, yet "Brave New World" became a classic.

Hemingway was a drunk but...

Poe was, at the time, considered a drug addled loon but...

Faulkner was a a borderline drunk and philanderer but...

the books can be spectacular regardless of the personality of the author

[pitohui]

19. ender's game repeatedly uses a GAY slur!

ender's game uses a derogatory word for gays over and over and over again

if huck finn is banned then ender's game should be likewise

[JerseygirlCT]

11. I haven't been able to go near one of his books since

his homophobic screed of several years ago. Blech!

[LeftyMom]

7. Because his protagonists are usually children or young adults.

And it's pretty hard to find books that young men identify with and will read that aren't crap.

While the writing's nothing special, you can get some good class discussions going about decision making, leadership and responsibility from Ender's Game. I wouldn't spend a lot of time on it, but it's not a bad selection, and less dated than most classics of the genre.

If I were teaching it, I'd also do a discussion on how science fiction predicted technological and social changes to follow- in Ender's Game we've got a prediction of the rise of the net as opinion shaper and the influence of prominent bloggers, as well as their interaction with the established media, for one thing. I'd ask for other good examples, like communicators on Star Trek predicting cell phones- I'm sure kids could come up with a lot more, and from there we could talk about what things from current media they think are plausible in the near future.

[antigop]

9. sorry, I don't buy that -- kids should be reading the classics, not this stuff.

They are called CLASSICS for a reason.

<edit to add> Caving into what kids want isn't solving anything. If they won't read the book, well that's just too frikkin' bad -- give them a zero. They need to learn discipline.

[Jack_DeLeon]

14. I'd consider Ender's Game a modern classic...

Shakespeare certainly wasnt anything I was interested in reading but I certainly liked the older Greek stuff.

I'm big into reading about history but English literature was definitely not my cup of tea.

[antigop]

17. Well, I don't consider it a "classic". There are lots better choices out there. n/t

[Greyskye]

23. I'm curious. Have you read Ender's Game?

:shrug:

[antigop]

28. As we speak...it's required reading for freshmen pre-AP in our school district

n/t

[Greyskye]

30. Do you disapprove of Harry Potter as well?

Which do you think is better:

1) Kids reading a 'classic' that doesn't speak to their experiences, and that they don't enjoy reading.
2) Kids reading books of lesser perceived 'quality' that cause them to enjoy the act of reading.

:shrug:

[antigop]

33. Once again, I'm talking about REQUIRED READING ASSIGNMENTS

If kids want to read Harry Potter and other stuff ON THEIR OWN AT THEIR OWN CHOOSING, fine. As I have stated upthread -- they can read whatever they want.

I'm talking about REQUIRED READING lists that have NO classics on them-- NONE. The kids graduate from high school with no exposure to classical literature. Guess what happens when they go to college and have to take English LIT 101 and have to read SOMETHING THEY MAY NOT LIKE?

I'm sick and tired of this meme that kids "don't enjoy reading" the classics. As I have stated upthread, kids live up to people's expectations of them. If people don't "expect" kids to "enjoy the classics" then guess what? The kids probably won't enjoy them.

As I have repeatedly stated, we don't change the algebra, trig, geometry curriculum simply because the kids "don't enjoy math". There are certain things that need to be covered -- whether the kids "enjoy" it or not. Teachers have a remarkable way of making "uninteresting" things interesting.

[Greyskye]

59. Fail.

"Teachers have a remarkable way of making "uninteresting" things interesting."

But the book in question is on the summer reading list.

Your arguments are mutually exclusive of each other.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

21. Give them a zero for not reading some shitty book they don't want to read?

Yeah, that'll learn them.

[antigop]

27. And if they don't want to do their geometry homework, we should provide a replacement

assignment--- something fun instead?

And if they don't want to do Social Studies homework, we should give them something "fun" instead?


It's called "discipline"-- they need to learn early that not everything in life is "fun" and "entertaining" (although a good teacher can often find ways to make things interesting).

That's why it's called "school" -- it's not called "fun and games".

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

38. Have you got a valid replacement for geometry?

Plenty of valid replacements for classics.

[antigop]

42. If you want to consider this stuff "valid replacements for classics" then I feel sorry for you. n/t

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

44. If you think the classics are superior to modern literature...

then I'd say you're a pseudo-intellectual.

[antigop]

46. And if you are saying that the classics should not be covered AT ALL, then I feel sorry for you. n/

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

48. Did they teach logic at your school?

Apparently they spent too much time covering the classics.

[antigop]

50. Did they teach reading at your school n/t

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

51. Yes.

Otherwise I wouldn't have been able to read you making a fool of yourself.

[antigop]

52. Nope..it shows that you haven't read my posts. IGNORE...sorry, pal, I don't have time for this. nt

[LeftyMom]

32. The classics only became classics because they were at one time popular

And only assigning stuff we know they'll have to slog through means they'll almost certainly grow up hating reading and read nothing that isn't assigned.

Besides, there's some merit in introducing other genres.

[antigop]

34. Fine -- but you DON'T have them read this stuff EXCLUSIVELY!

That's my point.

And there is that meme again in your post -- they'll have to "slog" through.

There is no reason that kids have to "slog" through classical literature.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

37. Err...

Your point was that kids should be reading the classics, not this stuff. Period.

:rofl:

[antigop]

39. No, my point was reading this stuff to the EXCLUSION of everything else. n/t

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

40. "kids should be reading the classics, not this stuff."

:shrug:

[antigop]

45. Post #25. n/t

[LeftyMom]

41. Who was saying they should?

I think the goal of assigned reading should be a broad background that stretches a kid's knowledge base, introduces new interests, keep them interested in reading, and reflects a wide variety of views.

[antigop]

35. and there's merit in reading classical literature. n/t

[LeftyMom]

43. The two are in no way mutually exclusive.

[antigop]

49. But they are -- on our REQUIRED SCHOOL READING LISTS

to the exclusion of the classics.

That's my whole point.

The kids graduate from high school having NO idea of who Mark Twain (as an example) is.

They have little to no exposure to poetry...

That's not my idea of an education.

[LeftyMom]

54. Then talk to whoever writes your area's lists.

That's definitely not my experience with the schools in this area.

[antigop]

57. I have brought it up repeatedly....and all I get is ..."well, the kids just aren't INTERESTED in

reading anything else..."

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

55. Let's see this list of yours.

[AngryOldDem]

10. Beats me.

I tried reading his crap (the premise of the book sounded interesting) but could barely get past the second page.

[Gabi Hayes]

12. got an audio book of his from the library: the protagonist went

to Princeton, which was populated by crazed lefties, and a psychotic liberal professor. I lasted about ten minutes into it, during an exchange that was the most hackneyed characterization of left vs. right that I've heard in a long time, including the worst of wingnut radio.

[mitchum]

29. Probably because he writes like a child

[Greyskye]

47. Card has his problems...

...but "writing like a child" is not one of them. :eyes:

He's a sanctimonious uber-religious nutjob in a number of respects, but the guy can write. Winners of the Hugo and Nebula Awards do not "write like a child".

[bdf]

5. What a shame an occasionally great writer has his intellect crippled by this garbage

It also probably didn't help that his parents so obviously either hated him or were plain fucking stupid. What parent with the surname "Card" names their kid "Orson?" All the kids at school would have called him horse 'n' cart.

[Blue-Jay]

15. I guess we're not gonna read about any more naked boy, soaped up, shower fight scenes from Orson.

[DireStrike]

31. "Classics" are awful

Everyone in this family loves reading, but 99% of that is things that you'd never read in school. It's far from trash either, I usually read things that are well written. They just happen to not fit the definition of "classic" - boring, unrelateable crap that is at least 50 years old. Of course, I've read and "enjoyed" my share of classics, but usually in the vein of "well, that wasn't too indescribably boring. And if I think about it in this one specific way, it may have been relating messages about X condition of humanity."

[hunter]

36. Wow. Nature invented marriage! I didn't know that.

I mean, like, "This is a permanent fact of nature."

:eyes:

[ismnotwasm]

53. That asswipe

I take joy in not purchasing or reading his books. He's one of those prolific writers so that in your typical mass chain book store like Barnes and Noble he takes up a couple of shelves, leaving less room for better SF. Too bad.

[semillama]

56. I hate his politics, but I do admit I have enjoyed his books immensely

His politics don't generally come through in his writing. In fact, one of his early novels, Songmaster, had some complicated sexual themes to it. The main character has a positive homosexual relationship later in the book, if I recall correctly.

That being said, once I learned about his politics, I pretty much stopped buying his stuff. Even if it doesn't come through, I still have that association in the back of my mind as I read his work.

Plus, the new novels in the Ender's Game universe are pretty terrible.

[lumberjack_jeff]

61. I agree.

In particular, the remorse Ender is described to be feeling in Xenocide (and his search for atonement) is about as strong an anti-war statement as I've ever read.

[ismnotwasm]

62. He's definitely not a bad writer

Pretty decent in some ways, although I've never cared that much for him.

I just read the article, all the way through this time and it's babble. Weird, because he CAN write. In the article, he seems to be in a free for all yammering. Very bad writing, as well as lacking in logic. He sounds like some unknown crazy blogger rather than an award winning author.

[rch35]

63. He may be crazy

but goddamn can he write

enders game is still one of my favorite books of all time