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Hey, All You Free-Marketeers, Anti-Environmentalist Types, Take A Good Look At China

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Yavin4 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-30-08 03:04 PM
Original message
Hey, All You Free-Marketeers, Anti-Environmentalist Types, Take A Good Look At China
And see what country with lax pollution standards truly looks like. Just look at the myriad of headlines regarding their polluted air and water. It's so bad that many well-trained athletes are avoiding the country until their event begins and many will be wearing masks as they compete.

This is why Liberalism is unpopular in this country. Whenever we are dead right about an issue and whenever we have living proof of right we are, we do not capitalize on it. The Sierra Club and other environmental groups should be on the air the air with ads about China's pollution.
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Hydra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-30-08 03:08 PM
Response to Original message
1. We do capitalize on it
But the kool-aid must be brewed pretty damn strong in places.

"Corps look out for people and the environment"

Since fucking when?
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YOY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-30-08 03:10 PM
Response to Original message
2. I'm actually in an argument in another thread on how Amtrak should go away...
Because "we don't turn a profit..."

Un-FUCKING-believable.
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DailyGrind51 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-30-08 03:10 PM
Response to Original message
3. But that would be so rude and might upset people!
We have to "make nice", so everyone will like us!:sarcasm:
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bryant69 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-30-08 03:12 PM
Response to Original message
4. Yeah - if you think free markets are bad for the environment
Let's see what Communism can accomplish.

For the record I'm for a vigorous and well regulated capitalist system.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com
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dysfunctional press Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-30-08 03:19 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. while i'm all for a well-regulated system of capitalism as well...
there are some areas that should NOT be for profit, and should be publicly owned/controlled- healthcare, water, and even energy come to mind in that respect. and maybe more- possibly airlines for example.

i also think that earned wages should NOT be taxed at a higher rate that investment income.

but overall- capitalism can still work out best for most when done correctly.
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wuushew Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-30-08 03:22 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. Is that really a valid complaint though?
Its not like the Soviet Union and the United States were equally motivated in limiting pollution.

Why would the Russians who were almost destroyed by the Nazis engage in limiting the total industrial output they were capable of? Fighting the Cold War was difficult enough and they were spending something like 15% GDP on defense spending before Gorbachev.

Can you cite how much cleaner "capitalist" Russia is today? If you consider CO2 then arguably it is even worse now.

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bryant69 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-30-08 03:29 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. I'm not sure what your point is - I don't think Capatalist Russia is sufficiently regulated
Rather I think the years of Communism broke down the social compact to the point that there is effectively no regulation at all.

Bryant
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yardwork Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-30-08 10:37 PM
Response to Reply #8
25. It looks like you have the same quibble as #21 for the exact opposite reason.
Rumble!
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DailyGrind51 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-30-08 03:28 PM
Response to Reply #4
7. Red China is an environmental nightmare.
Of course, they have combined a totalitarian political regime with a rapacious free-market economy.
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bryant69 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-30-08 03:29 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. I am not sure that's an accurate description of China. n/t
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yardwork Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-30-08 05:25 PM
Response to Reply #9
15. It sounds pretty accurate to me.
Where would you disagree?
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readmoreoften Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-30-08 05:50 PM
Response to Reply #15
18. First of all, it's not "red"
It's capitalist.
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yardwork Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-30-08 08:12 PM
Response to Reply #18
20. Besides that, what's your quibble?
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readmoreoften Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-30-08 09:19 PM
Response to Reply #20
21. Well it's just a huge quibble, I guess.
Red China means "Communist China" and is a cold war term. The idea floats around here all the time that China is a "communist country" with a "capitalist economy." It's kind of like saying North Korea is a democratic nation with a dictatorship. To equate communism as a synonym of totalitarianism is a terrible misunderstanding of 20th century history. Actually, to assume elections are indicative of a non-totalitarian society is just as nuts.

Communism, as outlined by both Marx and Lenin, never "took" anywhere on earth really. It had a good start in China in Yanan in the 1940s but things went strange. Of course in Russia, Stalin destroyed it. It has never functioned anywhere as it should. The process is supposed to be as follows: a vanguard of Revolutionary workers take control of the State, which basically exists to protect the rich from the poor. The vanguard party appoints workers paid at a reasonable salary to carry out the controls of the state. People are supposed to be able to voice their opinions on where the nation should go from there on out and they are supposed to support those in other nations who desire to get out from under the boot. What was once the State (which only existed to keep the poor segregated from the rich) then "withers away" as ordinary citizens take the reigns of society. All voices are welcome, except those that say the wealthy elite ought to rule again.

Unfortunately, sociopaths have used the rhetoric to gain power and then simply never let the State "wither away". Or, the nation spent so much damn time fighting US involvement (Central America), that they either never got ahead or were defeated.

What we are now witnessing is not only the failure of communism, but the failure of failed-communist revolutions (Russia/China) and the emergence of a global totalitarian capitalist state. Sure you can vote for the Social Workers party, but that's only permitted because the system is fine-tuned to the point where it can flush even moderate critiques of free-market economics (such as doomed "anti-poverty" campaigns.)
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yardwork Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-30-08 10:36 PM
Response to Reply #21
24. Ok, I get all that, but personally, I never equated "Red China" with pure Communism
"Red China" is just the term we used when I was a kid in the 60s and 70s. I never thought it was real Marxist Communism. I mean, that sort of died with the White Army, didn't it? It never got past Lenin, much less Stalin?

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readmoreoften Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-31-08 07:31 AM
Response to Reply #24
29. Nope. Red China meant the Communist parts of China before the Communists took total control.
China was MLM Communist, meaning Maoist rethinking of Lenin. Many of the members of the Communist Party quickly became right wing (in fact, the capitalists took over after Mao's death.) Mao was perhaps so Lenin-centric that he ignored the economy too much and was mislead by advisors who were just supposed to be "good servants of the people" and handle things.

Oddly enough, the problem was never Mao. It was that the average Chinese folks were so damn enthusiastic about Mao's ideas that they took them to absurd extremes. For example, during the Great Leap Forward, Mao Zedong wanted people to increase grain production. Regions went nuts competing with one another and many areas ended up deciding on their own (i.e. not enough authoritarianism) to melt their good metal tools to make BIGGER tools, but what happened is that they made weak useless metal that couldn't be used for anything. Timing was unfortunate and a drought hit and the combination of the problems killed about 3 million people (equivalent in US population terms to about 500,000 people.) The canard that Mao forced starving peasants to produce the best grain for urban areas in untrue. Mao Zedong was a peasant farmer himself and most committed to that group. In actuality there was corruption among the local leaders.

Mao's response to this was Leninist: revolution is on-going and trust the people. In the first wave, the workers overthrow the imperialists. In the second wave, anyone who uses their party position as status and to keep people repressed must be overthrown by the people. Ironically this is exactly what people criticize Stalin for NOT having done. So Mao called on the youth to form a "Red Guard" to criticize the party itself and to challenge their teachers and corrupt local authorities: i.e., the kind of people who would steal the best grain and profit off it and to challenge everyone to reimagine the future as something vibrant and new. The guideline was the great majority of teachers and authorities are good, some are mostly good but need guidance from you, and some are corrupt Once again, the youth went to absurd extremes and started beating up teachers and party officials and still untrusted former capitalists and Mao had to call in the army to stop them. Mao's response was that some were treated unfairly and that was wrong and that others were treated fairly. Modern Maoists think that the big mistake here was giving young kids so much power.

The moral of the story here is: Communist China was more like an anarcho-communist state constantly provoked by a folk hero than a totalitarian state; the party itself didn't really kill people other than spies, etc. and its death count was miniscule compared to the US supported nationalist regime that was in power until 49' and the proto-capitalist state that began after '76, but the citizens went nuts on each other and were brutal under communism. After Mao's death it was taken over by capitalist totalitarians within the party who established an ordered anti-democratic state while allowing wage slavery to begin again. Mind you, many of the pro-democracy reformers in China now want to end capitalism in their country.

From what i understand, Leninism "worked" for about 2 decades as well, basically until the death of Lenin.

And the threat of communism was the real social control that made capitalism work from Roosevelt to Reagan. Both corporations and the state feared the people enough to allow a middle class. A middle class capable of ascending and descending was necessary to ward off the idea of a more of less permanent working class of peons and royals. The Friedmanite solution (which Reagan embraced) to that was: fuck the middle class. Don't fear them, make them fear you. Just as Leninism said that a temporary dictatorship of a proletariat vanguard was necessary to upend the State, Friedmanites believe that a temporary dictatorship of ruling class is necessary to force through a hardline capitalist economy (which is why we assassinated moderate socialist presidents and installed Pinochet in Chile and the Shah in Iran) The free-marketers are even more vague about how the temporary dictatorship turns into a capitalist democracy--the market will magically make democracy happen.

What I find disingenuous is the ahistorical treatment of all communist nations as bleak death camps and the attribution to communism the failures of capitalist market reform. It's was a mixed bag, just a different mixed bag than here. If people count the famine after the Great Leap Forward as deaths caused by communism, then it's fair to count all the deaths caused by free market policies as deaths caused by capitalism, including the withholding of AIDS medication in Africa. If communism is responsible for the murderous lunacy of the Red Guard ("but Mao told them to rebel against corruption"), than all deaths due to organized crime are "capitalist deaths" ("but my teachers said to value the entrepreneurial spirit"). The biggest distinction to me seems to be under communism, so-called enemies of the proletariat are executed within the imperial state, while under capitalism, the proletariat and poor are executed outside the imperial state. So we always say "thanks but uh, I prefer things the way they are." Well, yes, of course we do.

Both systems are also equally idealistic and utopian: to think that the vanguard proletariat will give up power once they attain it or that "the people" are can refrain from collapsing into an unthinking mob...that's idealistic. To think that people like Bush and his cronies with massive amounts of birthright money are going to give up power and allow themselves to be "vigorously regulated" and lose a literal chunk of fortune for our benefit is idealistic. To think that these people who own the system can be brought to justice "peacefully" or through voting is far FAR more utopian that overthrowing them in violent revolution.
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csziggy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-30-08 05:32 PM
Response to Reply #9
16. Pollution and over use of the waters is killing the Yellow River
That is as if Egypt killed the Nile. Does this look healthy to you?


National Geographic Magazine has had several articles about China and their industry that opened my eyes:
http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2008/05/china/yellow-river/larmer-text
http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/ngm/0403/feature4/index.html (This is a teaser but the March 2004 issue had a lot of info on China's industry and their environmental woes. If you can find the entire issue, it gives a good overview of how free enterprise works in China - with absolutely no regulation or forethought for anything other than turning a profit.)
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bryant69 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-31-08 07:56 AM
Response to Reply #16
30. I believe in the environmental damage - not the capatalism n/t
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Lydia Leftcoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-30-08 10:43 PM
Response to Reply #9
26. I've been there; it's pretty accurate
They're really a fascist country now: politically repressive and militaristic but showing favoritism to business and crony capitalism.
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readmoreoften Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-30-08 05:49 PM
Response to Reply #7
17. How is a rapacious free-market economy "red"? You confuse communism with totalitarianism.
Just because the Communist Party, long taken over by Capitalist counter-revolutionaries, still calls itself "communist" doesn't mean it is. China is a totalitarian capitalist state. Before that it was a totalitarian communist state. Before that it was a totalitarian nationalist capitalist state (fascist) under Shek. Before that it was controlled by emperors who, in the 19th century, sold parts of the nation to the West for personal interest.

China is a totalitarian capitalist state: period. Hardly anything is socialized in China. The economy of Western Europe is more socialized than China.
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Yavin4 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-30-08 03:43 PM
Response to Reply #4
10. Don't Drag This Into a Discussion Between Economic Schools of Thought
This debate is about regulations, the need for regulations, and what happens when you don't regulate.
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bryant69 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-31-08 07:57 AM
Response to Reply #10
31. Once the OP References Free Marketers its already in the realm of economic schools of thought n/t
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readmoreoften Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-30-08 05:59 PM
Response to Reply #4
19. Okay, let's see it.
Oh wait, communists and even moderate socialists are hunted and eradicated by the capitalist military-industrial complex, so we'll never see that happen. Not to mention that far left nations are shunned by the world community for rejecting globalization, so they have no nations to trade with really and are forced to survive as they can.

And who is going to vigorously regulate capital? The politicians they own? The voters they disenfranchise through disinformation and fraudulent elections. Capitalism can barely be regulated at all, let alone vigorously.

Thus far, no economic system has "worked" (considering that 1 billion people live on less than a dollar a day) and all trend towards totalitarian systems, including capitalism...which, despite green labels on products, has caused the ecological crisis through overconsumption and lack of attention to infrastructure.
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elehhhhna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-30-08 04:43 PM
Response to Original message
11. pics -- this is NOT a rainy day, btw --


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progressoid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-30-08 04:44 PM
Response to Original message
12. That argument won't fly with RWer in America
They'll muddy the argument with the fact that China is a Communist State. And that Socialism brought this on or some such retarded logic.
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n2doc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-30-08 05:17 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. Plenty of examples
Nearly every poorly run third world country has big cities with horrible problems. The problem is, these RW'ers never leave the basement so they never get to see what a lack of Government rules looks and smells like
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AllieB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-30-08 04:45 PM
Response to Original message
13. Milton Friedman and his Chicago Boys advised the Chinese Govt.
that pretty much expains China's free market philosophy with an iron fist and no regard for consequences to people and the environment.
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nam78_two Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-30-08 09:24 PM
Response to Original message
22. You are quite right-but the libertarians must have their freedumbs
Edited on Wed Jul-30-08 09:30 PM by nam78_two
ZOMG fascists coming to take my plastic bags away....aaaaaaaaaaaa.....
Every time any kind of regulation-even the mildest kind-is suggested, the libertarians start having fits.


Last week some loonitarian type brought the Hitler youth up in connection with either the plastic bag ban or the fast food ban in CA. I was stunned! Even for a hard-core libertarian (not exactly the most rational people), I thought that was insane-yes the plastic bag ban puts us on the road to nazi Germany...

First they came for the plastic bags and I said nothing because I wasn't a plastic bag? :eyes:....


On edit: I posted about this a while back-NYT had an excellent series of articles on just this:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x1933752
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Lydia Leftcoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-30-08 10:45 PM
Response to Reply #22
27. Somebody on the Minneapolis paper's website was referring to New York's
Mayor Bloomberg as a "socialist." Uh, yeah, a Republican Socialist with a Wall Street background... :eyes:
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Dreamer Tatum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-30-08 10:36 PM
Response to Original message
23. Are you seriously implying that China is a free market? nt
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Yavin4 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-30-08 11:10 PM
Response to Reply #23
28. No, Far From It, But Their Lax Pollution Regulations Matches What The Free Marketeers Here Preach
My argument is centered around environmental regulations vs no regulations which is what the free marketeers want.

China is an example of a country with lax pollution regulations.
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Dreamer Tatum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-31-08 10:40 AM
Response to Reply #28
33. I would argue that wholesale corruption is China's problem
There are no political checks and balances in China...there is one ruling party that oversees and accepts graft from
the owners of capital, who pay to fuck up whatever they can in the name of shipping more rubber dog shit to the world.

And if you think we in the US are uniquely responsible for demanding cheap Chinese shit, have a look at how much they
ship to Europe. The whole world is enjoying stuffed animals and tiny mp3 players on the backs of the Chinese worker, who
are sold pork buns made of cardboard on their way home from work.

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treestar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-31-08 08:00 AM
Response to Original message
32. Maybe then the Olympic coverage will help
the liberal to a degree - the average person who is not a RW nut seeing all that pollution might start to think a bit more rationally about environmentalism. The RW nuts have nothing except scorn - they go immediately into that, never bothering with facts.

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