Utopianism as an accusation

[Narkos]

I have a libertarian friend who I engage in frequent e-mail political debates, and his latest e-mail attempted to paint liberals as utopians. Apparently there's a recent politico article where Nancy Pelosi states that she "wants to save the world". He surmised from this that Democrats scare him , because they are so overtly "utopian". I hear this term applied to both sides, and I pointed out to him that the neoconservative experiment in the last 8 years is a prime example of utopianism run amuck. The question is, is it bad to believe in an ideal society? Is it bad to be utopian? Isn't libertarianism just as utopian as any other ideology? Has it always this pejorative meaning?

[ColbertWatcher]

1. I think it's hilarious that a "Libertarian" would use utopian as a pejorative...

...since their political ideology is purely imaginary to begin with.

Here's a funny page describing how to explain things to Libertarians. (http://web.archive.org/web/20070705135446/http://pandagon.net/2007/02/23/how-to-explain-things-to-libertarians) Enjoy.

[mitchum]

4. Beat me to it

Yes, exactly.
Libertarian "philosophy" is the height of utopianism

[nam78_two]

8. Zing-well except that the sort of social darwinism they support would lead to a dystopia

But you beat me to it :).

[Narkos]

12. Thanks for the link. Frickin' hilarious!

[ColbertWatcher]

14. You're welcome. n/t

[Lyric]

2. Only an idiot would think that a desire to make society as comfortable

as possible for the greatest number of people is a bad thing.

What the hell else is life about? "I got mine" and to hell with everyone else? What kind of lessons does that mentality teach to children?

Compassion is a rare currency outside of the liberal political and social sphere, it seems.

[ColbertWatcher]

3. It's not even about making people "comfortable".

All liberals are trying to do is learn from our mistakes.

And GOP policies are huge mistakes.

[Lyric]

5. I dunno. Part of the reason that *I* am a liberal is to help make people's lives

better--more comfortable and secure. See, I have this crazy notion that working-class heroes deserve to be paid a wage that's good enough to live on, so that "hard work" really MEANS something.

I also have this scary idea that poor people shouldn't have to worry that they'll go without food, shelter, or other basic necessities if they lose a job or have a medical emergency. And that welfare shouldn't be so restrictive and designed to make the process so difficult and frustrating that half the people who try to get help end up giving up out of despair. And that the wealthy owe the government FAR, FAR more in taxes because they benefit from our system FAR, FAR more than poor people do. And that every community deserves to have equal access to competent and fair police, firefighters, doctors, and other vital services.

Radical notions, I know.

[ColbertWatcher]

6. I'm not disagreeing with you necessarily...

...I'm just trying to use a phrase that I think is broader.

By saying "learn from our mistakes" I mean that even though we've set up Social Security (which makes people's lives better), we will learn from any mistakes to make the system better. Making the system better might not make people's lives more comfortable, but whatever problem had existed will be lessened when we "learn from our mistakes".

I hope that makes sense.

[nam78_two]

9. As best as I can tell from the libertarians I know

The future they envision is one where the "smart ones" rise to the top and if you are one of the "stupid ones" -well then you sort of deserve to lead a sucky life. A libertarian I know thinks that "empathy and compassion aren't necessarily bad values" but they shouldn't be "shoved down people's throats"-because any kind of advocacy is also bad.

I despise most common forms of this philosophy....it is the sort of attitude that I think lies at the heart of most of the world's problems.

[Lyric]

11. And I agree with you completely.

We have a minimal standard for our pets. Why the hell wouldn't we insist that human beings be allowed (at least) a guaranteed minimal accommodation of their needs for food, shelter, and clean water?

The justification is often that "humans can work," but that isn't a good enough reason to deny basic living standards. Work isn't always immediately available. And paychecks can take weeks to arrive, and often aren't enough to pay for rent, utility deposits, groceries (even minimal ones), etc. until you've gotten two or three of them saved up.

It is disgusting how we treat our fellow human beings. Truly.

[Zookeeper]

13. Yes, and it's not only "smart" vs. "stupid"....

one would have to either be cut-throat greedy or accept that business and money-making is the highest purpose of life and LOVE IT! If you prefer Art, Science, Education, or being in a helping profession, well, too bad for you!

[MisterP]

7. they're avowedly DYStopian: they're a partial throwback to the 17th-century

mercantilism that said that England's poor should starve and die like flies to keep wages down. However, they're most like 1830s classical liberalism: free trade and competition with minimal "subsidies"--social supports--'coz blind forces are the best at running a society and economy, dont'cha know?
They're also tied to "frontier societies'" ideology--smug pragmatism, bunker-dwelling fear of the wildlife or the scalping, subhuman, destructive, inscrutable Injuns/Palestinians/Xhosa lurking outside the town or kraal.
This developed into Social Darwinism, which is related to the 1960s developmentalist decree that the employers came first, then employees, which is why the neolibs insist that any job, no matter how exploitive and radium-slathered, is better than "starvation" (because they think that everyone has been landless and workshop-less--proletarianized--since 10,000 BC)
John Scalzi calls them "the illegitimate children of Robert Heinlein and Ayn Rand" who "don't seem to understand why most people aren't at all keen to trade in even the minimal safety net the US provides for 55-gallon barrels of beans and rice, a crossbow and a first-aid kit in the basement"
on edit: H. Bruce Franklin's Robert A. Heinlein is a great dissection

[nam78_two]

10. Wow-what an awesome post

:applause: