My path to bankruptcy

[Indenturedebtor]

Well I lost my job this morning. I've mostly spent the day on the phone with the wife discussing our options.

Over the last 3 years my income as a salesman has been steadily declining. We had a brief period of being above water when I was working 80 hours a week as a car salesman, but the customers started to dry up as the housing decline accelerated. Many customers bought cars on their house credit, and many others simply bought more than they could afford using the easily available credit of the time. We needed reliable transportation to work so we ourselves bought one new car and leased another. Before the decline in the car market it was a reasonable financial decision.

After things started to head down hill we were still in the black, but decided to get a fixer upper that we hoped would appreciate through our labor, and in a few years we had hoped to be able to pay off all of our debts besides the house.

1.5 years into the house it's declined about 30k in value (probably despite all of the work and money we've put into it), and because my income has been shrinking we've had to fall back on the cards for food here, car registration there, doctor visit copay etc. At this point we're realistically about 70k in the hole if we sold all of our "assets".

Our only luxury is smokes and cheap beer heh. We've been able to visit our families once in the last 3-4 years because they've paid for it. We don't go to movies. We took one small driving trip to Carlsbad caves a few hours away. But really we only spend money on a house to live in and cars to drive.

We've figured that if we quit smoking and drinking we would still be about 600 dollars a month in the hole IF I got another job tomorrow that paid the same. Realistically though it would take at least 2 weeks to start a new job that called me today... and I would get paid 2 weeks after that. In truth it will likely take me 1-2 months to find another job with the same salary, or longer because now I have to explain being moved off salary to "independent contractor" status (great way to avoid paying unemployment).

So we have no money in the bank and less than half the money we need to keep paying the bills. And honestly I just don't want to anymore. We decided to go against our roaming nature and buy into the American Dream. 4 years ago we were travelling the world on a shoe string. We had a few job opportunities to teach English, etc. But we figured that the path to success and a better life lay in climbing the corporate ladder etc. I figured anyways, she was against it. Since that time we've worked like animals - I went from 80 hour work weeks to 40 at work and 40 on the house and other projects. (I post mainly at work while I call people heh). Our enjoyment in life is only really found with each other and our little dog. And we have nothing to show for the last 4 years really - EXCEPT the knowledge that we really don't care about all of this material crap.

We've decided to file for bankruptcy and move into a crappy little apartment close to the university where she works. I will try to keep one of the cars and hopefully get another job making some kind of decent wage. In the meantime I will take some classes and learn everything I can about building a web business. The dream now is that we can make a grand or two from the web business and go live in the "developing" world.

We're both done with this so called American Dream. Please just take our crap and set us free!

[Iris]

1. oh, man, that really sucks.

I hope things work out for you. We're in the position of putting incidentals (like eye exams and glasses!) on the credit cards right now and I feel like I'm cutting of a finger or toe every time we do it.

[Indenturedebtor]

3. Yeah that's what did us in ultimately. We built around our buffer and our buffer shrank

Prices went up, earnings went down. The Casino always wins though right? Right ;)

Fuck it I don't care. What do I lose? My crap? My credit score? Take it all. I don't want your stupid fucking credit!

In the Torah - all debts are erased every 7 years, and interest is illegal. Easy credit creates a society where credit is necessary to survive.

[Iris]

4. I agree. At this point, I could care less what my FICA score is.

[noiretextatique]

11. it's FICO, and i don't care either nt

[Iris]

17. ha! ha! see? that's how much I don't care!

I was going to put FICA or whatever in my original post!

[Faygo Kid]

2. Try to find other options. DON'T make sudden decisions.

You just lost your job this morning. This is no time to make such a life-altering decision as bankruptcy. Maybe that's the right decision, but don't make it for at least another week.

I was over $100,000 deep in credit card debt at my lowest. Now I am down to less than 20, and I will be out completely next year.

Everybody's situation is different, but one thing stays the same: Don't make life-altering decisions today, under this kind of stress.

Good luck to you. Sounds like you can use it.

[Indenturedebtor]

10. Well we'd honestly been thinking for awhile "wouldn't it be great if we could just go back to zero"

I really just don't want to play anymore. Take your ball and go home says I :D

If we had one car and a very small apartment we would be able to save money and to actually have a life. And most importantly we wouldn't have to be AFRAID all the time.

Afraid of what? that you'll take the crap away that I never get to use and don't want? Pfah HAVE IT!

[trof]

5. I can't let this sink without an answer.

But I don't know what to say.
How old are you?
It's much easier to make a comeback when you're younger.
But you already knew that.

I have also fallen on hard times.
Laid off three times from my 'profession' of airline pilot.
Usually took about an 80% pay cut each time in finding other work.
Damn near lost the house once, but managed to sell it and move to a cheaper section of the country.

P.S. I'm a smoker too. And I'm seriously thinking about quitting just because of the cost.
Bastids.

Best of luck to you.

[Indenturedebtor]

15. My wife turns 30 in two weeks, I just turned 29 myself

So we have "time". We'll just have to put off having kids a little longer, and honestly I don't see why we really need to have them in America.

Yeah those smokes have doubled in price here! They used a huge tax on cigarrettes to pay for child healthcare here in AZ. I'm all for child healthcare but why hit me with a 100 dollar a month tax to pay for it? Just tax everyone a nickel FFS!

[SheilaT]

24. Good grief, you're just a kid!

I was afraid you'd be 59 or some such. 29, you can do anything! If you're near any kind of a decent sized city contact all the placement agencies. Tell them you're ready for a complete change.

And a hundred bucks a month (and I bet that's just the additional taxes, right?) is a lot of money. Don't spend it.

[Indenturedebtor]

30. Yeah I really am going to quit this week - I'm sick of smoking anyways

I don't even really enjoy it most days, just have to do it.

My wife has a good job at the University, and has made a commitment to stay there for another year so we can't pick up and move to a bigger city though we'd like to.

[Zing Zing Zingbah]

42. Please try to refrain from referring to people who are legally adults as children or kids....

Someone who is 100 might think of you as a baby too.

[trof]

44. You're all kids to me. I'm a geezer. "Please refrain"?

Give me a break.
My 'kid' is 37.
She's still my kid.
Lighten up a little, kid.
;-)

[trof]

29. It sux that the economy affects your plans for kids.

Funny/fortuitous story:
Miz t. got pregnant (intentionally for both of us) when I was still with TWA.
Hell, my career was 'assured'.
I had seniority.
I was making good bucks.
No problem.

Six months later, I was laid off.
NO more health insurance.
But because it was a 'pre-existing condition', we were covered for the pregnancy and delivery.
Go figure.

Oh.. we went 'naked' for the next 3 years.
No health insurance.
I said "Just nobody gets sick, OK?"
Happily, no one did.

[Warpy]

37. That changes things considerably

because you'll likely have that seven years and more it takes to rebuild a financial reputation, whether or not you want one.

Just know you're not alone, that there are too many people out there going deeper into debt every day because after they've paid the interest on the debt they already have and bought enough food to keep them alive, they've found that they have to go into more debt for ordinary health care expenses and car repairs and other essentials.

This is the end game of substituting easy access to debt for real wages and it's always how it plays out: people reach a point where they can only afford to service their debt and they either bankrupt or hang on by their fingernails, spending nothing except grocery money and letting their health be wrecked.

We've been here before. We got here the same way, then.

Hang in there. We beat these bastards 75 years ago. We will do it again.

[Indenturedebtor]

40. That's a good synopsis really

We bought a junker car and it ended up being a complete waste of money. We thought that paying rent was throwing money down a hole. For the last 13 years or so we've done pretty much everything by the book. The more by the book we've played it (last 4 years) the worse things have gone and the more miserable we've become.

[Ghost in the Machine]

104. " For the last 13 years or so we've done pretty much everything by the book."

You've been together since you were 16?? That's pretty cool! My best friend in high school married his sweetheart (she graduated a year after us) and they're still together 26 years later....

You're young, you'll make it....

Peace,

Ghost

[Indenturedebtor]

106. Well not together hehe, we've been together for 8-9 years now

But highschool - college - now, aside from a gap year that we paid for without credit we've been your classic dream chasers.

[Egnever]

16. Quit!

Its not that hard. I just did! after 30 years of smoking. I got a prescription for a quit smoking drug called chantix. It worked like a charm. I quit 4th of july. Some days i still want to smoke but its easy to walk away from that feeling.

[Indenturedebtor]

18. Congrats on being able to quit! I plan on doing so now that I have no job

Plenty of time to sit around and be out of it while I deal with this and look for work.

[Faygo Kid]

21. I smoked for 37 years. Now I don't know what I was thinking. Yuck.

I did it cold turkey. Only had two friends that still smoked, stayed away from them for a couple months, and I haven't had a smoke since summer of 2005.

No desire to ever go back after coming this far.

[Extend a Hand]

55. we still smoke too...

(trying to quit but in the mean time)..we bought a hooka and now pay $10/week for a large bag of nice smelling vanilla tobacco instead of $10/day for cigs.

[grasswire]

6. one door opens, another closes

It sounds like a good time to retreat and decide how to proceed. Maybe you could retrain in something you like better than selling. The good news that I hear in your story is that you don't have to worry about taking care of a child on top of the other woes.

Best of wishes. You'll land on your feet. Try to do it with as much grace and integrity as possible.

[Debau2005]

7. We are almost in the same boat

My husband was let go from his truck driving job in May, we were married in April. Right now he is working part time as a barn manager and laborer. He only has 6 months of truck driving experience, he got his CDL in December. At the moment trucking firms are taking drivers with more experience. He keeps getting told to get more experience and re-apply. He is now applying for anything, and I do mean anything. Even the temp services aren't hiring!

Because we are newly married, we have 2 mortgages. His house is on the market, but it has had no hits, so we are going to try and rent it.

We don't know whether to let his house go into foreclosure or file bankruptcy.

I make a very good salary, for a women in the I.T. field, but I can't support 2 houses, and growing bills. We are selling furniture, and jewelry, which has helped us put food on the table.

[KayLaw]

8. I'm sorry about your job.

It sounds like you learned about yourself and what's important to you, though. I hope you can continue to move on and find happiness. Best wishes to you and your wife.

[TexasObserver]

9. sorry about your job

[Egnever]

12. Couple of sugestions

First check into short selling your house. It may or may not work out but a 30k write off is possible from the bank. Its better than a foreclosure. Also the new housing bill that just passed makes this easier to do I believe.

I would dump the cars immediately and get something with a lower nut each month or no nut at all. A lease and a new car may be reasonable as a car salesmen but it sounds totally excessive to me.

Cut up the credit cards right now. Judges don't like to see you charging more if you are filing for bankruptcy and digging yourself deeper at this point isn't helping.

If the bank refuses to help with a short sale scenario I would plan on a foreclosure and stop paying the mortgage and use the money that you would normally put to the mortgage towards getting set up somewhere else and eliminating debt wherever possible. It usually takes a few months for a foreclosure to get to the eviction state so you have time to save pennies. I would talk to the bank first though and see if they will help you. They might it isn't really in their interest either for you do walk away.

Anyway sounds like you have some tough times ahead. Good luck with it it isn't any fun. I was there a few years ago myself.

[Indenturedebtor]

22. Well we can't dump both of the cars - though I will look into the short selling

We need one car to get to work. And really they're pretty cheap - about 300 bucks a month each.

We really don't want to fix the situation any more. The best we could hope for is to just scrape by over the next 10 years. We've been barely fixing the situation for years now. Apparently under chapter 13 if you miss a payment they can add the interest back on as well.

Nope - its down down down and through for us I think. Indenturedebtor will be Indentured no more!

[alcibiades_mystery]

82. Not for nothing, but $600 a month for car payments is NOT cheap

It's fucking exorbitant.

You need to scale down seriously, and pay your bills. You're paying $600 a month for your cars and charging your food? That's effing CRAZY.

[Lex]

13. What bankruptcy relieves you of is vastly differently now

than just a few years ago. Please check that out because it may no longer be a good answer for your situation, sad to say.

[GreenPartyVoter]

97. Very true! It's no longer as helpful as it once was. At least, not to the debtors

[shireen]

14. my thoughts are with you .....

i'm so sorry to hear about this. many of us here are just a few paychecks away from being in the same boat, and it's very scary.
You made a good decision filing for bankruptcy -- you need to get rid of that financial burden and start over.

Hang in there ... I'm rooting for you :hug:

[midnight]

19. I'm hoping that someone with some fabulous business sense will chime

in here. Are web businesses profitable? I'm saying a prayer that your going to have a break with this stress and come up with a creative solution to this knot in your life. It seems that those strings that are connected to the banks, businesses, credit and more need to be re-threaded. You and your wife are in my thoughts, and your little dog.

[tblue37]

62. I am in the process of starting a web business that I expect to be

crazy profitable. But I already have about 5 million readers on my sites, so I already have the beginnings of a customer base, even though I haven't done any marketing at all. I will be selling ebooks I have written, affiliating with retail products, and running small, unobtrusive ads (Google ads and others).

I have a professional web designer who beleives so much in the inevitable profitability of my sites that he is doing many, many thousands of dollars worth of web design on spec. I expect the redesigned sites to be available within about a month. We'll see how it goes, and if it goes as well as I expect, I will post a report.

I have a modest salary as a fulltime adjunct lecturer at a state university, but I would like to make more money and have more security, especially since my meager earnings will not provide me with a livable retirement, and I will be 58 this month.

I believe that entrepreneurship is the only way to go these days. Develop a skill or a product that people need and want, and then use the web to reach a huge market. My market, thank goodness, is worldwide and will be easy to grow. Also, I have been a PR writer and written a marketing tips blog and marketing tips newsletters for clients in the past, so I do know how to market my stuff--even though I never have bothered to in the past, since what's on my sites right now is all free. I've let my readership grow on its own, letting people find me as they needed what I have to offer. But after the new sites are up, I am going to market the holy heck out of them.

[Indenturedebtor]

76. If you don't mind me asking how much do you generate with google ads and your viewership?

Please pm me if you don't want to share! We only need a VERY modest income to live in Thailand, Laos, Cambodia or even China. Poverty wages here would be a VERY good life in any of those countries.

[tblue37]

86. I don't know yet. I have just started putting the ads up on my sites. I never have done

it before. I don't actually expect the Google ads to produce all that much revenue, though once I start actively driving traffic to my sites, that might change. I think my ebook sales and affiliate commissions, as well as hook-ups with other retail products, will produce most of my revenue. But I am putting in the Google ads simply because I need to have as many passive income streams as possible to take full advantage of site traffic.

Every little bit helps.

My site redesigns won't be completely up and functional for about a month. Contact me in a couple of months and I will have a better idea of how the ads work, though next summer will be clearer, since I will have had time to actively market my books and my sites by then.

If you can get Google ads on your site, you probably should.

[Indenturedebtor]

91. we dont have a site yet hehe but we're working on it

I'm reading books, playing with Adobe CS3 etc. All we need is 2k a month... just have to bring that in steady and we'd be free!

[tblue37]

92. I believe there is a lot of untapped potential in the internet market--unless the idiots

in the government manage to do what they've been trying to do all along and put a stranglehold on the net. What sort of commercial activities do you plan to do with the website?

[Indenturedebtor]

93. It's a secret :D n/t

[tblue37]

95. Well, if you have a good product that I might be interested in linking to when it's all up there,

let me know. I won't feature just anything on my site, but if it's something I feel I could get behind, I could provide a link to help you out. (If it's porn, or anything like that, though, never mind.)

[Indenturedebtor]

98. No heheh. Content! We're shooting for content! And thank you and likewise!

Content is the way of the future!

[tblue37]

102. Yep. My sites' content has created my reader base, and I will now sell to them.

And what I will be selling is more content (my ebooks), though I will also make some money from ads and affiliate programs.

[Indenturedebtor]

105. This post is useless without a link :D n/t

[tblue37]

107. I actually have 10 public sites, but I am turning one of them into

my gateway page, with the others as subcategories under that one.

My most popular site is Grammar and Usage for the Non-Expert. My Out of the Blue site, though, is going to be my gateway page.

The sites as they currently exist are ugly and amateurish in design, since I am not a web designer. I was using a drag and drop text editor at Homestead, and didn't really know what I was doing. But the professional web designer who is redesigning my sites does know what he is doing, and he is doing a heck of a job. The old Grammar and Usage for the Non-Expert site can be found at http://www.grammartips.homestead.com/index.html

On that homepage, you’ll find links to my other 9 sites, as well as a link to the article index for the grammar site.

We plan to leave the old sites up for a year or two after the new site goes operational, just to make sure all my readers can find the new site and get it bookmarked. Since we are going to leave the old sites up for a while, the web designer is putting Google ads and affiliate links on all of those pages, too.

I am all about content. I have approximately 450 articles spread across the 10 sites, and a grand total of about 500 pages. With the old sites and the new one operating simultaneously for a while, we will have about 1,000 pages with ads and affiliate links on them.

The new site will probably go operational in 2-4 weeks. By then at least one of my ebooks, the most important one, will be ready for sale. Right now people order the 77-page handbook separately, one at a time, and I have to charge $30 for it, just to make a $5 profit after printing, binding, and shipping costs. But once it is in ebook format, there will be no overhead, so I can charge a much lower price. I am revising and expanding it, and the final version will be closer to 100 pages.

I have several other ebooks that will be ready for sale over the next few months, too.

My web designer is also a skilled videographer with his own equipment, and starting next year, we will also put up videos for sale. I have never marketed my sites, but I know how to. I have let people find me on their own, and they have, in the millions. But when I start driving traffic to my site, I expect my market to expand rapidly.

BTW, he started putting up Google ads on some pages of my old site just this morning, and already my account shows me earning a few dollars. Once he gets those ads up on all 1,000 pages of content, I expect to do pretty well with the ads. Also, I can write incredibly fast, and I have all sorts of useful content to write about. I will never run out of ideas for ebooks and videos.

My new site is very much a work in progress right now. He has already posted 67 of the 95 articles from the grammar site on it, but I still need to go through and reformat all of the articles. He does have a few of the special functions set up already: rotating featured articles, popular articles, recent articles, Google search box, etc.

When you compare the look of the new site with the look of the old ones, you can see how talented my web designer is. He is also an artist, and the site header is his original design, built on a picture of me taken back in 1985 or so.

Oh, here is the link to the new site:
http://tina-blue.com/

But remember, it is just now being built. It has just 67 of my 450 articles, and the articles are not at properly formatted because I haven’t yet gone in to take care of that. He hasn’t put the Google ads on it yet, either, since it’s not yet operative. Most of the sections on the left of the page have not yet been “populated” with the things we are going to put there. A few are links to parts of my site, but most are still Joomla links.

Please ignore the rather silly “What you will find here” blurb on the homepage of the new site. The web designer wrote that. I will definitely write a better “welcome” blurb.

[Indenturedebtor]

108. Lol i wasn't going to say anything about the "what you will find here" bit

But uh yeah :D The layout and the rest of this site are awesome! Not something I have a use for right now, but I can see why you pull in good traffic with that!

As I understand it the key to the google ads is your tag words! Depending on what you think your audience is going to buy or at least express interest in you can tailor your tags to make the buckaroos :D

Yeah it looks really good! When is it supposed to launch?

[tblue37]

109. I use my Site Tracker web analytics to help me

select my metatags. On the old site, I have some things wrong that cause some of my earliest pages to be ranked lower than they should (while I was still learnign about metatags and such), but many of my pages are either #1 or in the top 5 on Google for certain key words.

You should browse my old sites. I bet you'll find stuff on some of them that will interest you.

The old siite is the one that is pulling in traffic right now. The new site will probably launch within the next month or so. There is a lot of tweaking to do to post the rest of the 450 articles and to reformat all of the articles.

That "what you will find blurb" is embarrassing--sort of "hero worship" on the part of my designer, who was a student of mine back in the late 1980s. He thinks I am this great philosopher, and the current blurb, which is just a place holder, reflects his thinking. I need to get a proper intro blurb written, but I have been focusing on revising and expanding my grammar handbook.

I am not, of course--I am just a fairly well-rounded teacher of certain topics and a storyteller who is old enough to have seen some fairly amusing things. (Two of my sites are just compilations of amusing true anecdotes about kids and animals.) I also did home daycare for 18 years, so I have something to say about childrearing, too, which is what another of my sites deals with. I am severely hearing-impaired, and one of my sites is a set of articles (mostly amusing) about coping with deafness in a "hearie" world.

But most of my sites are "teaching" sites, and those are the most popular ones, because people seek information.

You should PM me and tell me your content topic(s). I might be in a position to help you when the time comes, if there is a way to connect your topic(s) to one of mine.

[tblue37]

94. BTW, if you need a hook-up with a Chinese TOEFL school, let me know.

I can put you in touch with a former student of mine who helps locate teacheehrs for a school he taught in while there. The salary runs about $400/month, but as you know, you can live well on that in China. (Of course, you'd have to come up with the expensive tickets to get there.)

[Indenturedebtor]

96. Awesome! Thank you so much :D We've got a road to travel first here in the states

But that's our plan C to gtfoh! We will escape dammit!

[tblue37]

103. Just make a note of my name, and when you are ready, let me know.

I will contact Eric and give hm contact info for you.

[Phoebe Loosinhouse]

20. You're traumatized and you shouldn't make any decisons for a little while

Say at least a week

Are you living in the fixer-upper?

A 30K decline, believe it or not, is not all that horrible, depending on the market where you live. Instead of dumping the house, I would focus on dumping the expensive transportation - the new car and the lease is probably where you made your biggest personal errors.

You will need a lot of bucks to even get another rental. Dump the cars, keep the shelter. Get a roomate if that will help you out. Get 2 roomies if that will help out more. Help yourself, help them.

[Indenturedebtor]

26. How to work without a car though? And then what?

Yes we live here. We bought a cheap car when we first moved here and it tanked on us in 3 months. My wife nearly lost her job because of it. So we financed the other two. But really it's the decline in income and the addition of the house not the cars -

Nearly every salesperson I know is hurting BAD right now. When you're just starting out how do you save for a massive recession and stagflation?

Fuck it - seriously I don't want any of this stuff anymore. I haven't for months. We've known that if another shoe dropped we were screweed for a few months now. Now the other shoe hit the floor and we're ready with plan B - which is a complete "restructuring" heh. It hasn't been so long since we've had nothing that we've forgotten how much better that is.

[SheilaT]

50. The important thing with a car

is that it be reliable. If you don't already know what cars are reliable (and I bet you do, regardless of what you were selling)check with Consumer Reports.

[Indenturedebtor]

52. I do now but didn't then heh. And with better financing and rebate terms

Payments came out the same as a reliable 10 grand used car heh. But in any case I couldn't finance another car after bankruptcy (or even before). Can't add negative equity to a used car without lowering payments, which I couldn't do without down payment and.... considering that my debt/income ratio is FUCKED no one would loan me the money lol.

I saw so very many people come in to the dealership with that situation. Without a good few thousand dollar down payment we couldn't do anything for them.

[dkf]

84. Get an older Japanese car.

I'm so sad I sold my '92 Integra for $1800 cash. I rarely had to fix it, just fill it with gas every other week :( Now I have $400 payments and the new car is a guzzler (19 mpg vs 29). Yeah its nicer, but I miss having no car payments.

[NuttyFluffers]

89. ;) only 1 person currently needs a car... your wife.

you on the other hand can spend that indoor time strategizing...

[Indenturedebtor]

100. Lol too true. We've figured out that making progress financially is not possible right now

Unless I get a job making 1/3 again what I've been making - there's no way "out". We will continue to sink into debt.

[NuttyFluffers]

110. well, at least give it the ol' noble try.

at the very worst it'd look good as you apply for bankruptcy. seeing that you did attempt to consolidate expenditures and tried to find a job will go towards amenable discussions between you and creditors or judges.

what's the $ of the smallest CC debt, rounded to the nearest thousand? if you can knock one off and then start to get into discussions it might work better for you. also, check your local libraries; often lawyers do community service work offering free advice at such institutions. could save you quite a bit to get some good advice on your legal standing.

[SheilaT]

23. Pay close attention to what others

have said, especially the part about researching exactly what bankruptcy will do for you.

From October of last year through April of this I was a part-time paralegal for a small law firm that mainly did foreclosures, evictions, and collections. I hated the work. The attorneys were personally pretty decent people, but doing that work had hardened them in ways that distressed me. And a lot of our business was chasing down and collecting from people who'd bought cars a year or so ago and now weren't working and just couldn't make payments. Yeah, some of them were classic deadbeats, but then there were the ones who were mortgage bankers and who two years ago were making over 100k per year, and now practically zilch.

And there's always work out there. Junior colleges are a vastly underused resource. They have vocational programs, some as short as nine months that prepare you directly for the job. Many of them have placement offices, or at the very least help in organizing your resume. I got a paralegal degree a year and a half ago, and especially at the entry level there seems to be adequate work for me.

Oh, and at the risk of sounding like one of the Smoking Nazis, you really should give it up. Put aside that money, in cash, for three months and I bet you'll be amazed at how much it is. No, it's not enough to keep you from bankruptcy, if that's really going to have to happen, but it will amount to a noticeable amount.

[fascisthunter]

25. Sorry to Hear This

I think others here have some sage advice. I just wish you and your wife well.

[high density]

27. Bankruptcy kills you for years

These background check places that employers use to screen new employees, like HireRight, will screw you over big time for having a bankruptcy on your credit report. I have seen secretaries be denied employment at my company because of bankruptcies.

I work in a sales office and we are having a really bad year as well. Nobody is spending money.

[Indenturedebtor]

38. Yeah that's what concerns me most is employability

But not all jobs check credit so :shrug:

We just can't pay it all anymore. The money just isn't there.

[dkf]

85. Maybe you should get your job first...

Hold out for a little longer.

[nc4bo]

28. I don't know you...

personally but I feel your pain. Not a bankruptcy but a devastating house fire left us in pretty dire straights for a couple years (insurance companies are not very nice people). Make no major decisions now like someone else mentioned.

Downsize what you can to relieve some of your burden and take it one day at a time. If you believe in a higher force, God, Buddha, Goddess, now is a good time to try find comfort in your faith and in the love of your wife and family.

There will be a tomorrow, don't ever forget that.

[Indenturedebtor]

32. I'm sorry to hear about the fire. I'm sure there was a lot that couldn't be replaced

We're not despondant, either of us. We've known for months that one more straw would break us. We've downsized as much as we can really. Neither of us wants to play this "upward mobility" game anymore.

Thank you for the kind words :hug:

[SeattleGirl]

31. Pretty much in the same boat here.

My work load went way down (I work by the billable hour), so I found another job in the same field, but it was salaried. Three weeks after I started, I was accused of misrepresenting my qualifications, and was given the choice of voluntarily resigning, or of being fired. I chose to resign, even though I did not lie about my qualifications and I can prove it. Their "proof" is that two people SAID they heard me say something I did not say about my qualifications. (I am currently fighting them about being eligible for unemployment benefits.)

So, now I am without a job, and have no good prospects, because my entire industry is suffering.

We were already in debt because of my low income before I got the job I just lost. We thought things were looking up when I got this job; that we could start really chipping away at our debt. Now, that's not possible.

We met with a bankruptcy attorney, and also researched our other options. After much discussion, we decided that our best choice was bankruptcy. I know it's not the best choice for others; everyone should do research into the options and choose the one that is best for them.

I, too, am to the point where I don't give a flying fig about my credit score, or lots of toys and things. I just want to get things resolved, and to stop walking around with this huge weight on my shoulders.

I wish you the best.

[Indenturedebtor]

34. How is the bankruptcy going?

I'm sorry to hear about your troubles as well.

"We were already in debt because of my low income before I got the job I just lost. We thought things were looking up when I got this job; that we could start really chipping away at our debt. Now, that's not possible."

- Ditto.

The really funny thing is that the CEO recruited me from my last job with all sorts of high flying promises. I wasn't even looking for another job.

With the bankruptcy, from what I've read, if you just don't have the means to pay - after some serious pains in the ass - they just take it all away except for wedding rings and clothes, etc right?

[JAYJDF]

33. Been there, lived through that!

Find an attorney you can trust.
Lay it all out for him.
The answer will be clear.

It was painless.
Businesses do it all the time.
Us citizens are brainwashed into trying to do the right thing and keep on paying.
Attorney chuckled and asked what we were waiting for.
It is a big decision, but can be a relieving one.

I figure it's the system that's screwed up.
Not your fault you lost the job.
Not your fault the house is worth less.
Use the same screwed up system to start over, if that's what it takes.

What actually happens is the ding in credit is a good thing because it helps one step back from the cycle of working just for buying.
And having no credit cards for a while helps in stepping back.
Actually we already have a couple small balance cards already.

Good luck.

[Indenturedebtor]

35. Did you go Ch 7? n/t

[JAYJDF]

41. chapter 11. n/t

[Name removed]

36. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[shadowknows69]

39. This is me and my wife's eventual fate

Thousands in medical bills we can never hope to pay off.

[SammyWinstonJack]

43. My husband is a Used Car Manager, has been for the past 15yrs.

Business has slowed down but he is still selling out of his department, about 120 units a mo. He is seeing more people with bad credit scores. When he first got in the business in '93, the flake lenders were raking it in. He says there are plenty of flake lenders out there still. It is a hard business to be in, no doubt about that. Pretty much a relationship killer and a life draining career. Good luck to you!

[Indenturedebtor]

49. I got out of the car business a few months back - the checks just kept getting smaller

And as you say it has a heavy heavy toll on the rest of your life. But yeah over the 3 years or so I sold cars - the credit apps got worse and worse.

[SammyWinstonJack]

60. The stress is unbearable. My husband wants out so bad. He use to love it and now he

dreads every minute of it. 10/12 hrs days and 5/6 day work weeks are killers.

And they could not care less. They will kick you to the curb in a New York minute!

Down the road motors and throw you under the bus/drop you in the grease.

It's the car business babe! :puke:

[Indenturedebtor]

75. Yeah you pretty much summed it up right there. Seriously that's it to a tee

I had to bite a big bullet to leave, but the money was consistently going down anyways at the time. Now perhaps part of my situation is the result of that decision, but I'm fully convinced that the car sales life would have killed me by 35.

[JNelson6563]

45. Good post.

Well done. Though your story is one of frustration, I really appreciate that you have come up with a practical plan for *after* bankruptcy.

Sell what you can, keep what you need and donate the rest. Words to live by in these not-so-high times.

Lastly, in reality you and your wife have each other and a beloved pet, you are pretty wealthy. :toast: To true wealth!

Hugs and encouragement,
Julie

[nilram]

46. check with your state employment office

about this "being moved off salary to 'independent contractor' status". It's a ruse and the employment office may have heard that one before and be able to help you out. And if they won't, perhaps an employment lawyer would have some advice.

Best of luck.

[Indenturedebtor]

48. Unfortunately they covered their asses with unreasonable expectations

That were above and beyond the average performance of their company. I don't think I have a leg to stand on there.

[lynettebro440]

47. I filed bankruptcy in 2003

I had lost all my personal possessions right before that, from some really crooked people in florida. I moved back to the midwest and started back with nothing. It was humiliating because my credit score was always exceptional. But when you come to that point that credit scores and material shit really doesn't matter anymore, it's not really that bad. I have lived off of my debit card for almost 5 years. I'm still paying off one credit card that they fought me on (suggestion, if you are really thinking of filing bankruptcy, do as someone said above, stop charging stuff on the card, they will make you pay it back, so watch out.) I buy what I can afford and nothing more. I drive an old beat up honda accord I bought for a thousand bucks 5 years ago and it has 200,000 miles. I simplified my life into almost nothing and it feels really good. I worked my way up to a decent job with benefits, went almost 3 years without them and I'm not a spring chicken like you. I'm close to 50. It had taken me almost 3 years to decide to file, it was right before they changed the laws back in 2003, and it was one of the hardest decisions to make. But in after thought, I'm glad I did. My 7 years is almost over and you know what, I don't care. I refuse to buy into the life I left. I'm happy just spending what I can, living simple and happy. It's a hell of a lot better then the life I left. But get a good lawyer and save up some money to pay him up front to file bankruptcy. Best of luck to you and hang in there, the sun always rises in the morning.

[AZBlue]

51. I'm so sorry.

I looked into bankruptcy myself and was told my salary was too high and my debts were too low, despite the fact that my debts exceed my salary. HUH?

Good luck - you've got a good attitude, you realize you're in a tight spot but you can turn things around. If you decide to get rid of it all and pare down, you might actually feel freer than you do now, with or without the debt. I'm at a point where I'm donating or selling a LOT of my stuff because that's all it is - stuff.

Consider selling things you don't want to try to raise a little money and then do what you know is right for you both! Hang in there. :hug:

[Indenturedebtor]

54. Thank you fellow Arizonan

My salary would likely have been held to be too high as well then. We were just under what we needed before I lost this job, and have been steadily going backwards. Now that I have no job it shouldn't be too much trouble to say "Um we do need to eat food."

[AZBlue]

63. I know what you mean - I'm in sales too and my commission keeps dropping.

The economy's not good here in AZ. It's not good anywhere, but I think this is definitely a harder hit place than many.

Again, hang in there!!!!!!!!!

[Runcible Spoon]

53. I'm 70K in the hole and I can't even bankrupt my way out of student loans.

They feel like a fucking anchor around my neck.

[Raster]

72. And they should feel like a fucking anchor around your neck, because they are.

Student loans are one of the worst cases of usury foisted on America's youth. If you want a decent education, then you have to go into debt--non-dischargeable debt.

[Indenturedebtor]

77. Yep. And it's not enough to cover the books etc either! ours is down to just over 20k now

I didn't even count that in our debt :rofl:

[Greyhound]

56. A kindred spirit and unfortunately similar circumstances. More after work. n/t

[NashVegas]

57. I Think The Best Advice Here Is "Decide Nothing Right Now"

You've had a shock and oh my god what a horrible, shitty time it is for you and yours.

Best thing to do right now is just scream and throw things and maybe get a little drunk.

As for the cigarettes, when you are ready to give them up, you'll be able to. I had my last smoke on 6/23/07. Went cold turkey - after 30 years - with the assistance of vacation (no routine) and a couple of weeks worth of nicotine gum.

[elehhhhna]

58. Do it! Press the restart button ...

that's what it's there for. What a relief. Your new lives sound more interesting than this one, anyway...

Can you travel & teach Enlish again?

Please elaborate on this: now I have to explain being moved off salary to "independent contractor" status

dates, details, etc. sounds fishy, may be some recourse.

[Indenturedebtor]

78. We didnt actually work when we were travelling, but saw ALOT of opportunities to do so

And met people who offered to hook us up with jobs - from fruit picking in NZ, to selling used crap in OZ, to teaching english in Korea and China. We could easily have landed some work... and the teaching English work would have put is in ALOT better straits than we are now.

It's not that hard. Most teaching jobs pay between 25-35k USD a year, and to put it in perspective: including tickets we travelled for about 9 months through Fiji, NZ, OZ, Thailand, Cambodia, Laos, China, a little bit of Burma for 15k for two people! And it was mutually agreed to be the best year of our lives. Yes that includes tickets. google Airbrokers.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

59. I don't know where you live, but each car you get rid of automatically

frees up thousands of dollars in disposable income.

Consider walking, cycling, or taking the bus (if there is one) as many places as possible.

Embark on a one-month experiment in which you do not use your car if there is ANY alternative way to get there. If you're young and healthy, you should be able to walk a mile or cycle 3 miles in 20 minutes. If you move, make sure that you're within walking or cycling distance of a grocery store. You do NOT have to do monthly stock-up shopping trips if you have a basic larder and just buy whatever you've run out of or need fresh.

In Portland, I was car-free for ten years. Here in Minneapolis I have to drive some, because the bus system is inadequate, but most people here are oblivious to how much driving is optional, not necessary. It's just a bad habit to drive a few blocks to the store and then circle the parking lot looking for a space instead of walking to the store.

By the way, I declared bankruptcy 10 years ago when my largest customer suddenly got out of the publishing business. All of a sudden my income dropped 50%. I was in my forties and had no spouse to provide another income.

Financial problems are embarrassing and emotionally difficult, but you will survive.

[Matariki]

61. For what it's worth Indenturedebtor

My sister went through the exact same thing. Declared bankruptcy about 2 years ago and her partner sells cars too. They are doing very well now and are *much* happier. They got rid of the debt (via the bankruptcy). They did keep one paid off card which they never use - just to rebuild credit. My sister has better credit than I do, in spite of me never paying anything late and keeping my balances low - go figure. She just bought the townhouse she's been renting since 'liquidating' all her assets.

Good luck to you. You sound fortunate to have an understanding and adventurous partner. I wish you both the best.

(and ps - you might want to change your DU name someday, just for the mojo's sake)

[Indenturedebtor]

80. Lol thanks for the allegory! And yeah I hope to change the name n/t

[varelse]

64. You have your priorities straight

a firm grip on reality, and you married the right woman, too:

Our enjoyment in life is only really found with each other and our little dog. And we have nothing to show for the last 4 years really - EXCEPT the knowledge that we really don't care about all of this material crap.

Best of luck to you in your new life :)

[gristy]

65. Sorry for your troubles

but your plan sounds like a good one. Good luck!

[w8liftinglady]

66. went through that 4 years ago.

believe it or not,once you've shed debt,and can get no more...it IS kind of liberating.I'll be thinking of you.PM me anytime.

[pipoman]

67. The best advice in this thread

is to get rid of the new cars. I spent a very large part of my adult life dealing with debtors. If you are financed through a major lender (GMAC, Ford Credit, Bank of America, etc.) on either of these new cars and are current on one of them, you have around 3 months of default before they will repo it if you quit paying on it tomorrow. If you take your $300 per month you would be able to pay $900 toward a $1000-$1200 Toyota, Honda, Nissan, or Mitsubishi or a domestic made by one of these makers like Geo Prizm, Plymouth Laser, Ford Probe, etc. In older cars these makes are demonstrably more reliable than most domestics. One more payment and no more payments needed, keep putting the $300 away as religiously as possible in case a repair comes up or you need to replace your car. I can finance most any new car I want and I just bought a $1000 Honda Accord to drive to work, no full coverage insurance, decent gas mileage, why would I spend $15-20K ($300-$500 plus ins. per mo)for the exact same purpose? New cars are the worst idea in the world for anyone who isn't independently wealthy. The fact that you have been in the new car business means you have been conditioned to disagree with this position, I know, but do give this some real consideration. If you decide to do this absolutely do not tell the finance company that you are considering bankruptcy, they will try to repo it immediately, instead tell them your story and be as contrite as possible. Tell them you will make good on the loan, you just need a little more time. This may buy you a little more time, you may even get 4 months without a payment before they come for the car.

Edit: Just my $.02...good luck.

[Xenotime]

68. Sad to see * steal another american dream

[nashville_brook]

69. i actually love this post -- bankruptcy isn't the "end" -- it's the beginning

best of luck to you. sounds like you've made some really good decisions for you and your family.

[WhiteTara]

70. great idea about the web business!

and if you can help people with their software problems...man you will be just fine.

I know that you are totally freaked out (who wouldn't be!) but from the outside, I can see daylight.

Some person (wise, in my book) said"when one door closes, another opens" Keep the faith in yourself.
:hug:

[SCRUBDASHRUB]

71. I'm sorry to hear that. Can you get unemployment insurance?

[laylah]

73. While your credit may

mean nothing to you, it means A LOT in this pariah of a society.

I am 57. In 2005, having been legally separated for 3 years, I was forced into bankruptcy. The hardest decision I have ever had to make. The day I filed, my FICO score was 782. It has been a nightmare ever since. My car broke down last July, I had to have one for work and am now paying $14k for a $9500 car, the interest is beyond usurious, and I couldn't sell the f*cker if I wanted to. That is just one reason to reconsider.

There are places like Consumer Credit Counselling that can help you. It is a free service, they negotiate payments with your creditors, on your behalf. Not to preach but you are MUCH to young to be destroying your credit this way.

I agree, credit sucks but it is a reality. Please explore options before throwing in the towel. I wish you and your wife all the best. :hug:

[InvisibleTouch]

74. I hear you on the credit cards.

I've got ... several, shall we say. I managed to pay off one last month, and it felt wonderful! But after the initial rush, I realized it was a drop in the bucket. If I didn't have these "minimum" payments due every month, I'd be doing okay, but the cards are sucking me dry. I don't even care about my credit score anymore - that's shot to hell long ago. I swore to my best friend, if I ever get out from under this debt, I will never touch the cards again. I told him (and an additional witness) to hold me to that, also. I will keep my debit cards, but not the credit cards.

Good luck in your journey. Sounds like your plan is a good one. Make a fresh start.

[Jeroen]

79. I admire your positive spirit! Good luck! n/t

[Franc_Lee]

81. Plus Bush ok'd credit card companies from adding credit card debt to claiming on Bankruptsy

[RebelOne]

87. Since when?

I declared a Chapter 13 1-1/2 years ago and it was all credit card debt.

[JCMach1]

83. Sounds like you may be in West Texas

The best move I made to get financial stability was get the hell out of the USA.

Financially, I do not regret that decision and never will.

[NuttyFluffers]

88. i give you a hug. you might need one at this moment.

i will repeat the advice Melissa Etheridge gave to Randi Rhodes upon her parting from Air America, "stop. don't do anything rash. look around. think. then plan."

not the most glamorous pearls of wisdom, but quite practical. in fact, i sort of fell enamored with your romantic notions of traveling the world again on a shoestring. but again, we can easily whip ourselves into justifying almost anything at the moment of crisis. so, please feel free to give yourself a moment to catch your breath; by pausing you might be more surprised how strong your position might really be.

for starters, i'd dump the leased car and the junker car to consolidate $ into the new car. still, $300 is a lot of money a month; if i knew where you lived regionally, how much was left to be paid, et cetera i might suggest ditching all of them and shooting for bus passes for 2.

a fixer-upper home is usually a liability unless you can flip it fast (too late!) or loaded, have deep contractor knowledge/connections, and intend to live there. if it entails a commute greater than 20 miles one way to work for your wife then you are better off considering your options. but having a backyard is quite useful in growing your own food to offset some grocery costs. that and you get to store more shit as well as payments go into a tangible thing you can keep than just being "borrowed for a fee" by renting. consider a boarder? how beat up is your place?

cut up your credit cards. when you are that dangerously in debt, it's best to know when you don't have ANY money. money, and credit, tends to burn a hole in a pocket. cut those card and pay off the easiest one within striking distance. hey, the goal's to go live life unfettered, right?

beer and smokes -- a tragic breakup. see if you can cut back first. before i essentially quit (still a social smoker, once in a blue moon) i was down to a pack a month; a vice that's only $6 a month can hardly be that much of a drain (hell, greasy foods addiction cost more). beer... well, if you're not that picky, and some days i'm not, there's always Pabst Blue Ribbon. drink enough of that and save up for special occasions on the weekend to splurge on imported delights.

unless you are thinking about selling your excess crap on Ebay or Amazon i'd really question your enthusiasm about starting another e-business. it's really an ugly market right now, in just about everything. see if you can pull something more steady for the time being, even if it's just gov't work. not to stifle your dreams, but really, shooting your wad in a business startup is mostly about timing. do you really think this is the best time? write the ideas in a notebook and sleep on them for a while. when you get more money, it might be the means to sustain your shoestring adventures around the world, a la Rick Steve.

oh and i almost forgot! :hug:

[Blue_Tires]

90. ttt

[sofa king]

99. Hang in there!

One of the few reasonable things George Will ever said is that "luck" is created by positioning and being alert for the opportunity when it comes.

Conversely, the best way to be unlucky is to give up.

It looks like you're only the first of about twenty to fifty million Americans who are about to bounce off the bottom in the next few years. Be the superball.

[Indenturedebtor]

101. Word :D Sometimes it's best to just let go. 3 years ago we had almost nothing

We were SO much happier then! I'm not sad about this at all. Except for the time wasted doing what everyone told us that we should do.

The best decisions we ever made, we made in the face of conventional wisdom. Everyone told us not to move in together for one thing ;) 9 years later she's still the best thing that ever happened to me.