Is there a substantive difference between "Palin faked her pregnancy" and "Obama is a Muslim"?

[Seen the light]

To the people that continue to push this Palin pregnancy thing, I'm wondering what your thoughts were when the "Obama is a secret radical Muslim!" thing was really spinning hard on conservative websites.

Anybody care to explain how this story is different?

[Duer 157099]

1. One might be true?

:shrug: just a guess

[merwin]

4. That would be my guess

[Seen the light]

5. Why do you say that?

Is there any reason to believe this Palin pregnancy story over the Obama Muslim story? If so, please show me something resembling proof, not silly innuendo or circumstantial evidence. There was plenty of that during the height of the Obama Muslim thing, I'm sure those of you that are so into this Palin pregnancy story have something much better right?

[madeline_con]

26. How about Palin does not look pregnant in the pics?

There you go.

[kristopher]

84. 3/18/08 full figure newspaper photo of Palin

If you download and lighten the image, you can see that she has a flat stomach.
http://www.adn.com/news/alaska/v-gallery/story/345168.html?/news/alaska/v-enlarge/story/345168-a345519-t3.html

[LeftishBrit]

89. Even if it were...

is there a difference between this and 'The evil Clenis! He lied about a blowjob!'???? In fact, *if* true, this story is less bad than the Clinton one, as he lied to protect himself; she would have lied to protect her daughter.

The point is: why go after her (and therefore her daughter who is NOT running for president) on this, when there's so much else against her: fundie extremism; what looks like a fairly consistent pattern of abuse of power and firing people in order to get her own way; support for Pat Buchanan of all people! I'm getting to think she'd make Fuckabee look like a liberal - at least he seems to have occasionally shown some paternalistic Christian compassion for poor people and immigrants. She supports the aerial killing of wolves; the killing of polar bears; the destruction of the environment. She's under investigation at home over one of the power-abuse scandals. Less drastically perhaps, but still worryingly, she has apparently given some support to the Alaska Independence Party, which could suggest that her loyalties to her state trump those to her nation - acceptable perhaps in a governor, but not in a national leader. She also seems very stupid; e.g. thinking the Founding Fathers wrote the Pledge

It's not up to me, except that I live on the same PLANET, and these nutcases' actions affect us all. But it seems to me that it would be far better to attack her on the issues, and on her bullying anti-democratic ways at home, than through her daughter.

Presidents should be impeached for lying about wars, not about blowjobs. Similarly, IMO, candidates should be rejected for being power freaks who think they should be above the law and for being cosy with far-right extremists, not about (possibly) lying to protect a pregnant daughter.

[dansolo]

96. It's the hypocrisy

The reason that Bill Clinton's lie was not as important was because he never proclaimed his moral superiority over other people. But Sarah Palin is a strong proponent of Christian fundamentalist thought, and is against sex education and promotes abstinence-only education. It will be pretty hard for her to promote that position when her own daughter ends up pregnant. She was not protecting her daughter--she was protecting her own political career.

[DailyGrind51]

112. Exactly! We know for a fact that Obama IS NOT a Muslim!

We can only speculate about Palin.

[notadmblnd]

2. Or Rush is a pedophile junkie?

I'm not saying he's not. But I just don't see the concern for his well being as I do for poor Sarah Palin.

[Bluebear]

3. If you equate the two, I'm afraid nothing I could say would be of import to you!

[Seen the light]

8. What's wrong with equating them?

Both are stories with zero actual evidence that were pushed on sites to discredit the other side's candidate. Am I wrong? Even if I am, you can at least see why a comparison would be valid right?

[Bluebear]

10. I am not "into" the pregnancy story per se, but where is YOUR proof? Is there a birth certificate?

I would love to see it, wouldn't that put all this to rest?

[Seen the light]

15. I'm not the one accusing someone of faking a pregnancy

The burden of proof doesn't lie on me.

[Bluebear]

18. I see.

[madeline_con]

29. Then it shouldn't concern you. n/t

[Seen the light]

31. When Fox reports on DU members peddling this nonsense, thereby drumming up sympathy for her...

Then it will become my concern. And that WILL happen, the echo chamber always starts with the right-wing blogs and then Drudge and that's already happened with this story.

[Marr]

108. Haha, fine-- good luck pleasing Sean Hannity and Fox News.

If you're going to limit yourself to things those people won't object to, you may as well just go jump off a building. That's the only thing they'll cheer a liberal for doing.

They're going to vilify you anyway.

[notadmblnd]

33. You can start here

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/8/31/145838/319/386/581332

[Matariki]

27. See my post below. Explain why she travelled so far after her water broke?

I think that alone is evidence. Being pregnant at 44 is risky. An actual pregnant woman wouldn't take that sort of risk and not go straight to a hospital. Not buying it.

Here's a link from an Alaskan paper about it, I'm sure there are many more besides KOS: http://alaskareport.com/news98/x61580_shannyn_moore.htm

[tabasco]

69. You apparently don't know what evidence is.

Rush was caught with a stash of contraband viagra, coming from a country notorious for tourist prostitution including child prostitution.

That is circumstantial evidence. It is reasonable to assume he was using the viagra where he was coming from.

I think it is reasonable to assume he was using prostitutes there as well. How old were they?

[silverweb]

6. Yes, there's a difference.

IF Palin faked her pregnancy to cover for her teenaged daughter and claims that baby as her own, she has falsified birth records and committed insurance fraud. Those are criminal acts.

The Obama is a Muslim nonsense has no basis in fact whatsoever and, even if it did, there is no crime involved.

[ColbertWatcher]

37. Well said. n/t

[SoCalDem]

77. and the whole "Sweet Sarah and her handicapped baby" is the "package"

it's what McCain's lame campaign needed to draw in those women who were not all that keen on him..He's expecting her "story" to make them all melt and say.."she's a godly woman" and overlook the fact that a Baked Alaska probably has more to offer than this half-baked Alaska named Sarah..

[seemslikeadream]

7. Can you explain to me why there are no photos on the internet of Bristol

standing without a baby in her arms or not sitting at a table and then someone comes here to night and starts a rumor that Bristol is pregnant? Is she pregnant? Is there a link to that anywhere?



I've gone through a hundred photos of the family tonight not one of Bristol stomach showing

[Seen the light]

13. How is that relevant?

How many Bristol photos have you found? I'm hoping at least ten in the timeframe being talked about otherwise, it could simply be coincidence right? Or maybe she had added some fat recently and was self-conscious about it?

Why is that so hard to believe, but it's somehow quite easy to believe that a sitting governor would fake a pregnancy?

[seemslikeadream]

17. I have found at least 50

but to be sure I'll go count them right now and get back to you

[Seen the light]

25. Even if that's true...

maybe she's just self-conscious about putting on some pounds? She IS 16 or 17 right? Is that really so unusual?

[Matariki]

9. Yes. Pregnant women DON'T give speeches and take 8 hours plane rides after their water breaks

ESPECIALLY 44 year old women for whom pregnancy is already risky.

on edit: while, coincidently their daughter is 8 months 'sick with mono'.


And this level of deception DEFINITELY MATTERS, if true. And the evidence is compelling.

[seemslikeadream]

11. That's it

[Seen the light]

23. Ok, let's expand on that

First of all, I've read that plenty of times on DU in the past few days and haven't seen an actual source on it. I don't doubt that she actually did that, I'm just interested in what the source to that is. If you have it handy, I'd love to see it.

Anyway, back to the expanding. How does her weird behavior lead to her faking the pregnancy? What do you think happened when she finally got to that hospital in Alaska? That they smuggled Bristol and Trigg in there and put the newborn child in Sarah's arms or something? With no medical personnel noticing?

Also, why did she go on to deliver the speech if she was in a hurry to get back to the Alaska hospital so they could pull off the ol' switcheroo? How does that fit into the Palintruther timeline?

Getting back to the whole planning of this switch, am I supposed to believe that Bristol had the kid and that the doctors and nurses helped with the whole switcheroo?

Now that I think about it, this is really starting to sound like dungeon type material. People that believe this stuff are using truther logic here. Why is it easier to believe that the entire family, Bristol's friends/boyfriend, various medical personnel, everyone was in on this massive plot to pull the switcheroo instead of believing that...Sarah Palin was just a little weird the day she had the child?

[Matariki]

32. The story is from a Texas paper in APRIL

Buzzflash links to it: http://www.buzzflash.com/articles/alerts/476

excerpt:

Here is the fact from the Texas Ft. Worth Star-Telegram in April:

From Alaskan NBC affiliate KTUU:

Just yesterday, Palin was in Texas at a forum on energy with Texas Gov. Rick Perry and executives from four other states.

The governor's water broke during the energy conference but she stayed and gave a 30-minute speech before boarding an Alaska Airlines plane home to deliver the baby.

Palin gave birth to Trig Paxson Van Palin Friday at 6:30 a.m.

No word on why Palin was so determined to make sure young Trig wasn't born a Texan.

[Matariki]

34. I provided you a link. As to your other questions

Seems obvious. Her daughter's pregnancy was unexpectedly early. They traveled back to the Podunk town where they are friends with the doctor who will cover for them. Hardly possible at a Texas hospital.

Here's the direct link to the April article in the Texas Star Telegram, btw: http://startelegram.typepad.com/politex/2008/04/governors-water.html

[Seen the light]

43. Or the other obvious possibility....

A woman that's obviously weird and dumb as fuck did something weird and dumb as fuck the day she had her child.

She has a lengthy past of doing weird and dumb as fuck stuff. Why is it really so hard to imagine she would potentially fuck up her kid's birth? Remember, we're talking about a Dominionist AGer that believes that women that are raped should be forced to carry the child and that the Pledge of Allegiance was written by the Founding Fathers.

[Matariki]

45. well, you have a point there.

[madeline_con]

47. Beacuse in pics and video she is so obviously NOT pregnant.

There is a pic of her pregnant with her other son, and she's huge.

[EFerrari]

48. Not to mention, it's a bad idea to believe everything you read

in the American press.

[Matariki]

59. If you think that way, what's the point of asking for a link?

Plus, it would be odd for the Daily-Telegraph to retroactively lie about the story. :shrug:

[EFerrari]

60. I don't think that way. I spend a lot of time tracking down

bs that gets printed over and over.

As far as the DT, I've no clue. Yesterday in GD-P, a couple of Alaskan DUers were talking about rivalry between TX and AK. More than that, I don't even have a guess.

[madeline_con]

46. If you're claiming the child is yours, you can't be in Texas while

he's being born in Alaska.

There was no switch. Switch what? Just a fake birth certificate, maybe.

[EOTE]

118. Truther logic? That's all I need to hear from you.

Apparently you're not very good at putting two and two together.

[orleans]

12. of course there is a difference. the obama story was a bunch of bullshit n/t

[Growler]

14. There has always been proof that Obama was a Christian...

...but right now there are still a lot of questions about the pregnancy. Friends of mine who are mothers think there is something fishy.

Here's the deal: there never was any question about Obama's faith. All of the doubts were fueled by lies. At this point, there are plenty of questions about Palin's pregnancy.

[DFW]

16. A big difference

The Obama/Muslim thing was (and probably will again be) pushed hard by
National Hate Radio and Fox "News," even after being definitively disproved.

The Palin pregnancy thing will be ignored whether true or not. It will fade
soon enough, anyway (unless proven true, and that won't happen soon enough
to matter).

[The Traveler]

19. If Palin really did as she describes

then her commitment to the life of the child must be really tenuous. Someone truly concerned for the child would have done the right thing and checked into a hospital for delivery. The question here is was she covering for her daughter (understandable, forgiveable, move on) or was she neglecting/abusing her child?

[madeline_con]

49. 3rd possibility: she was covering her political ss.

It's more about saving her career than covering for Bristol.

[gulliver]

20. Pregnant women didn't destroy the twin towers on 9/11?

If Palin were to become president, the worst we can expect is an unwed teen pregnancy. But with Obama, we're talking something serious. He could order American nukes to be trained on American cities. So, I guess you can see there is a big substantive difference.

[misanthrope]

22. Didn't they?...

...DIDN'T THEY?!





Just a little humor...

[tkmorris]

54. Please tell me you're kidding

Humor doesn't always easily show on an internet forum, but I assume you must be joking here. Yes?

[gulliver]

57. Kidding n/t

[valerief]

21. Obama isn't a Muslim. I wouldn't give a crap if he was, though.

Same as Christian or Jewish to me.

[EFerrari]

24. Both are stories that partisans are using to gin up antagonism

instead of speaking to public life and issues.

It doesn't even matter if these stories are true or not. It's mob mentality in action and no matter if both sides think of it as "truthtelling", that's all it is.

There are plenty of ways to hit Obama legitimately without resorting to this, just as there are plenty of ways to go at Palin.

[Seen the light]

28. *ding ding ding*

We have a winner!

Now that the nonstory itself is starting to make headlines as a story on places like Drudge, don't be surprised if Palin starts to get sympathy for us mean ol' radical left-wing kooks (or whatever O'Lielly will call us when he reports on this) unfairly attacking her. We have the weakest vice-presidential candidate in history and we're pissing that advantage away on this tinfoil dungeon garbage.

[EFerrari]

30. Even if it's 200% true, it's a dumb way to go.

She'll just bat her eyelashes and the fundies will huddle around her.

The brother in law / abuse of power story is so much better. The kill the polar bears for the oil companies, the bridge to nowhere -- man, the 20 million dollar debt she left as mayor. Good grief. You practically have to squeeze your eyes shut NOT to see legit openings all 'round.

I understand people being interested in tracking down bs. I like doing that, too. It's therapeutic. But, it's no way to take on the Republican ticket, imho.

[Matariki]

39. Do you want someone in the Whitehouse who demonstates a willingness to fabricate a cover-up?

If it turns out to be true? Granted it's not even at the top of her list of faults, but it's still important.

[EFerrari]

41. The point is, there is plenty of other stuff to go after

that won't blow up in our faces. Or make us feel like slime.

The point is not whether she is a corrupt hack or not. We already know that she is.

[SheWhoMustBeObeyed]

79. I agree 200%

Let's look at the options and how they would play out.

Story:
We have proof that Sarah Palin endangered her unborn child.
Public reaction:
Obama is pro-choice and doesn't care about unborn babies. Anyway, she's raising a Down's baby. That woman is a saint.

Story:
We have proof that Sarah Palin pretended to have a baby to cover up her daughter's pregnancy.
Public reaction:
Obama must hate women to attack a caring mom for protecting her daughter. Anyway, she's raising a Down's baby. That woman is a saint.

Story:
We have proof that Sarah Palin pretended to have her daughter's baby in order to commit insurance fraud.
Public reaction:
Dems will say anything to attack family values. Anyway, she's raising a Down's baby. That woman is a saint.

Story:
We can't prove it but we think Sarah Palin's baby is really her daughter's and is the product of incest.
Public reaction:
WTF!? Are there no depths to which Obama won't stoop to win this election? Anyway, she's raising a Down's baby. That woman is a saint.

I understand why people see the baby story as compelling. And to certain segments, it will have a lot of appeal. But it's not a campaign issue because most people will see it as an attack against women, mothers and families. The media will be sure to frame it that way.

I would love to make something out of Palin's links to Dominionists. To me it's a very serious issue, and I have been spreading the word to like-minded people. But it's not a campaign issue because most people will see it as an attack against Christians. "That Muslim Obama hates Jesus so much that he's attacking Sarah for her faith."

The firing of Monegan, the involvement of her BP-employed husband in government business, her popularity ratings tied to the price of oil, her utter lack of experience, and the already-established impression that her selection was a cheap, cynical ploy to gain votes: these are campaign issues that question her ability to lead, and should be where we focus.

[ThePowerofWill]

88. I tend to agree that even if true this could bite back.

I posted this in a response yesterday, it kinda sums up how i see it.

My point is many would see this as positive if proven true. It is easily spun to make Palin look selfless, and protecting of her family. Big plus to the fundies, and other family values types.

I happen to come from a time and place were things like whats being speculated about have happened many times. It's among those whispered stories in small towns, ya know the clothesline/street corner gossip stuff. And yes in all these whisperings the mother comes off looking good because "she did it to save the baby, and her daughters reputation. Many daughters were known to disappear for months "to visit a relative in another town" then only to see a baby(if the baby is kept). Sometime after which the daughter reappears.

In these whisperings the mother is called "strong", "full of heart", etc. It's the daughter who lost her way and is the "slut".

It would also play right into the anti abortion angle. This "strong", "selfless" woman of courage sought to take this on herself and not opt for the "easy", "selfish" path of abortion.

I just don't see this as a big issue. More of a big stinker that could possibly bite back

[Greg K]

35. One involves a teenaged girl

One does not.

[EFerrari]

51. Welcome to DU, Greg K

:)

[Greg K]

99. thank you.

[will3800]

36. no

Karl Rove is behind both

[Matariki]

67. Go to bed Karl. It's past your bedtime.

And quit bragging. ;-)

[madeline_con]

38. Just check it out...

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/8/31/145838/319/386/581332

[Matariki]

40. blank page?

[madeline_con]

42. It's fixed. And it takes a couple seconds to load.

[emilyg]

63. Oh yes! That's

proof. :sarcasm:

[BlooInBloo]

44. One might be true.

[bertman]

50. There is another thread on DU with multiple links to the Palin baby controversy.

One of them shows the photos of Bristol as well as the photos of Sarah Palin during the timespans that are in question. Also noted are comments by lots of "innocent bystanders" who were astonished to learn that the Gov had been pregnant, including the flight attendant on the plane she flew from Texas to Alaska on the day she was "in labor". The folks who worked with her were reportedly shocked to know that she had a baby. Apparently she and hubby were the only ones who knew she was pregnant. Isn't that a bit odd for the Governor to be pregnant and NO ONE to know? You'd think that would be the kind of news that good Christian parents-to-be would want everybody to know about.

I'd say the photos speak for themselves.

Also, please explain Bristol's five-month absence from school due to mono. An absence that allegedly corresponds to the months she would have been pregnant, if she were pregnant.

As far as why this is relevant, isn't it worth some interest on the part of those of us whose Vice President she could possibly be to know that she is actually telling the truth about this? If she's not being truthful and it is her daughter's child it shows that Sarah Palin is a very sick person, and certainly not someone who should be Vice President.

What's very sad about this is how it is or could be affecting her daughter, Bristol.

Now, on the other hand, it is my understanding that there are still many, many allegations going around that Obama went to a madrassa and is a Muslim. I think our Candidate has gone above and beyond in telling people he is a Christian. He's been asked about this in debates and has dealt with it.

So, let Palin deal with her vetting problems-- like a real woman.

[adamuu]

52. the difference is the Republican are better at this than we are

for some reason when we try it, it blows up in our faces and i've never been able to figure out why.

just sayin'

[Jack Rabbit]

53. The only difference I can see is . . .

There's something wrong with faking a pregnancy.

Thank you for putting it that way.

[countryjake]

55. Sarah Palin Baby Story Ender...

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/8/31/234157/516/1017/581734

To answer your question, no. Both are hysterical accusations concerning a politician's private life that should have no bearing on their public service. Just as I wouldn't give a fig if Sen. Obama really was a Muslim, I could care less about Palin's mothering...her kids could have been raised by wolves and honestly, then I might find something to respect about her. Examining her public record, however, leaves me shaking my head that she may be in line for the presidency of this country.

[Matariki]

56. Again, 3rd paragraph of your link: "UPDATE: I found the photo on Free Republic. "

blech.

[EFerrari]

58. The pregnancy threads read like they were written at free republic.

We're having dueling birth certificate threads.

[countryjake]

61. The real reason it's scary...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KLNz0XCsfcY

[EFerrari]

65. LOL!

:rofl:

[Matariki]

62. I respect you sfexpat - but I disagree with you on this

This isn't a politician's little white lie about a marital 'indiscretion'. If true, it was an elaborate ruse on her part to cover up something she felt would embarrass her career.

It's very much along the lines of George Bush elaborately covering his AWOL status in the National Guard. Look what that got us - eight years of lies and cover ups.

It speaks to her character, or lack thereof. And yes, there are many shortcomings in her character that need to be addressed, but I'd say all of them should be, this included. We need to throw *everything* we have at these people, because god knows we have a much harder time making *anything* stick. It tells that nation what sort of VP, or god forbid President, she'd be.

[EFerrari]

64. You know, I'm not saying you aren't right about the pregnancy

or, that it doesn't speak to her character. I just think this is a dangerous way to go for a lot of reasons.

But I definitely agree this person cannot be elected to federal office. She's a disaster.

[countryjake]

66. Do you have any idea how many women, back in the day...

were forced to lie and "cover up" their pregnancy status, how many children they had, their age, whether or not they were divorced, steady boyfriends, or any other ridiculous little personal thing...in order to simply find a decent job? It has taken us years to have that patriarchal criteria removed from the arena (and it's still there, lurking on the back of every job application), and I sure as hell ain't gonna start measuring a woman's "character" over outrages that any thinking female over fifty should remember, very well.

[Matariki]

70. No. That's not acceptable. That's a pathetic excuse for lying.

She could have simply adopted the child. It would have spoke well of her as not being hypocritical on the abortion thing - that she was willing to support her daughter through and after the pregnancy.

No. Not acceptable at all for a potential candidate for the highest office to fake a pregnancy to the point of claiming her 'water broke' and yadda, yadda. It shows only how far she's willing to lie for selfish reasons.

[Matariki]

71. Worse yet, your excuse for her just shows what she's trying to drag women back to.

ugh. no excuses.

[countryjake]

73. Back to?

Judging by all this "babygate" nonsense, peering up a woman's crotch to determine her character is very much alive and well.

:puke:

[Matariki]

75. Quit acting like this is about sexual morality.

It's about whether she's the type of person to stage an elaborate cover up. But you're okay with that? Because woman used to have to do that in the 50's?

Because if she'd go to those lengths to cover up something that shouldn't even matter, YOU CAN BE SURE she'll cover up important things. Like who doesn't have weapons of mass destruction.

[LeftishBrit]

91. But isn't that exactly what the freepers said about Clinton? Or Ted Kennedy?

And of course she would cover up things like who doesn't have weapons of mass destruction. She's a Republican.

Lying about sexual matters - one's own or one's family's - doesn't have a whole lot to do with lying about political issues IMO. Blair seems to be pure and honest as the day about personal matters; but extremely dishonest about such things as who doesn't have weapons of mass destruction!

[countryjake]

100. It's about the right to privacy...remember the Constitution...

and it's about sexism...tell me again how you or anyone else intend to conclusively prove that Palin did not give birth to the Down's baby boy. Or why that information should be anybody's business but her own. Until the fucking fundies actually do accomplish robbing us of our right to control our own bodies, I would hope that upholding certain existing constitutional principles are not ignored, simply for the sake of an election.



And then there's this:

http://www.komonews.com/news/national/27736899.html

~snip~

In Monroe, Mich., Democratic presidential nominee Barack Obama condemned rumors involving the children of candidates and echoed the McCain campaign argument. Said Obama: "I think people's families are off limits, and people's children are especially off limits."

Obama adamantly denied anonymous claims that his campaign helped spread the rumors.

"I am offended by that statement," Obama said. "Our people were not involved in any way in this, and they will not be. And if I ever thought that there was somebody in my campaign that was involved in something like that, they'd be fired."

[LeftishBrit]

90. I agree on that part - but we knew already that she was trying to drag women back to that!

It's not necessary to bring her daughter in to it, to prove that.

Just to listen to her own almost Taliban-like statements.

[Beregond2]

86. There is no such thing as a "private life" when one is a

politician. How a person conducts their life is one of the main ways voters judge their fitness for public office.

[LeftishBrit]

92. I don't think that's one of the main ways voters judge people's fitness for public office

But if it is, that might be why such disastrous people keep getting elected! Unless they are spouse-beaters or the like, I don't think it's a very reliable criterion.

[Vektor]

68. The difference is there is something wrong with lying, deceit, and hypocrisy...

There is nothing wrong with being a Muslim.

This is a false choice. Being a Muslim is nothing to be ashamed of. Being a liar and a hypocrite is.

FWIW, I am not entirely convinced that Sarah Palin is not Trig's mother, but since you asked if there were a difference between accusing Sarah Palin of being a liar and accusing Obama of being a Muslim I'd say yes, there is a HUGE difference. Being deceitful is wrong. Being a Muslim, though treated as "wrong" by bigots is NOT wrong.

[EFerrari]

74. It's not a false choice The freeps accuse Obama of LYING

about being a Muslim, too. And they are also eager to get their hands on a "real" birth certificate.

[Vektor]

76. Ok, put that way, then it's a similar thing.

FWIW, I don't subscribe to the whole Palin baby controversy. I admit there are some odd circumstances surrounding her pregnancy, but there is no proof of what happened exactly, and that's the least of her issues. She has very disturbing political views for which no proof is needed. She's out with it.

I could do without the mudslinging and would love to stick to the real issues. So yeah, I see your point.

[EFerrari]

78. I never thought I could dislike someone more than Bay Buchanan.

lol

:)

[Vektor]

80. I am not too familiar with Bay...

So after I read your post I did a google search which yielded many pics, all of which revealed that she has no lips, and her mouth looks like a gnarled little anus.

So, I may have to jump on that bandwagon, too.


:-)

:rofl:

[Trajan]

72. HUGE difference ...

One is most likely true ... The other is most definitely NOT true ....

I kinda dislike GOP defenders in DU .... I am thinking this qualifies ...

[Skittles]

81. it's a bit harsh to call the OP a GOP defender

because they're concerned about the validity of what admittedly sounds like a tabloid story

[Fumesucker]

82. Edwards was a "tabloid story"

Until he wasn't..

Just sayin'

[Skittles]

83. so is "Obama is a Muslim"

Just sayin'

[Fumesucker]

87. Fox does not rise to the level of the tabloids..

IMO

And that is where the "Obama is a Muslim" meme has been most prevalent.

FWIW, I think the Enquirer at least is far more trustworthy than most of the M$M when it comes to getting their facts correct.

Think about the Jessica Lynch story, the Pat Tillman story, the Niger yellowcake story.. I could go on almost forever.

[KharmaTrain]

85. This Points To Several Character Issues...

Politics now is bloodsport. The GOOP turned morality and "family values" into a weapon to bash Democrats for the past 25 years and there are questions here that this story points at.

I honestly don't care who the baby's mother is...but it does concern me that this child was born with Downs Syndrome and if Palin claims to be the mother she should be dedicating a lot of time to that special child...not running for Vice President. The fact she was back at work 3 days after giving birth makes one wonder what her priorities are...and now she is dragging that poor child around the country and using him as a prop for her own political ambitions is very disturbing.

The other matter is this lady's character...is she covering things up and using her political connections to do so? Be it troopergate or this matter, there's an awfully familiar pattern of covering up that we, as voters, need to know about as to make a proper and honest evaluation of her ability to be one 72-year old heartbeat away from the most "powerful job" in the world.

Then there's the "feminist" factor...she's trying to claim to be the alternative to Hillary Clinton...a true champion for women's rights...she's carpetbagging on Hillary's lifetime work and attempting to pervert it. This lady wants to replace that glass ceiling with plexiglass. She claims to be a paragon of virtue...a role model...a trailblazer, yet her past shows the opposite. This story goes to the core of her opportunism that places her ego and career over that of family...and in my book, there's nothing more important than family.

Finally, I have a disabled sibbling who my mother dedicated her life in making sure she was taken care of and comfortable in a world where she wasn't dealt a fair hand. It consumed her life and I grew up around handicapped people...gaining a special appreciation for the battles they've had to fight. This lady represents a party that has cut funding to these silent and very forgotten people and is now using this child as a prop. IMHO, she should have taken an extended leave or resigned when the child was born. Instead she's ready to stick this child in the fishbowl and glare of the corporate media. I find that disgusting.

This story, as seedy as it is, has merit...and it's out there...and the more its out there, the more information is coming forward and now its starting to appear on media radar screens.

Again, I could care less about the materinty issue as much as if this lady is qualified to be Vice President. The way this story develops will tell volumes of her real qualifications.

Cheers...

[Donald Ian Rankin]

93. Only that the "Palin faked her pregancy" story is more offensive and more counterproductive.

Both are palpably nonsense that no-one except zealots more concerned with partizanry than accuracy pays even the slightest heed to.

The only difference is that right-wing nuts spreading the "Obama is a Muslim" story doesn't harm John McCain much, whereas left-wing nuts obsessing about Palin's pregnancy may harm Obama non-trivially.

[Orsino]

94. That I expect much better from the people pushing the pregnancy thing.

The secret Muslim is banal and predictable enough for the radical right.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

95. Dignified American political campaign about issues = oxymoron.

In fact, Dignified American Politics = Oxymoron

[sniffa]

97. Yes

Obama is not a Muslim and she faked her pregnancy.

[dkofos]

98. YES One is true.

[ColbertWatcher]

101. Yes, one is based on the racism of the rumormonger and the other ...

... is based on rumors from eyewitnesses in Alaska.

Remember, the rumors about McCain's running mate's alleged pregnancy started in Alaska by people who saw her with their own eyes. It was old news by the time she was selected by GOP Party elders to be second on the ticket and we got involved.

The lie that Obama is somehow a Muslim is based not on someone who saw him in a mosque, but on the racism of the person spreading the rumor. (Because his name is one letter away from Osama? Because his middle name is Hussein?)

I think that's different.

[countryjake]

102. Racism, sexism, both still major problems in this nation.

Anyone's alleged religion is just as private as anyone's alleged pregnancy, isn't it?

Or did you forget the Constitution?

[ColbertWatcher]

103. I don't know where the sexism comes in.

The Obama lies were started by people who never met him, but saw that his name was one letter different than "Osama" and that his middle name is "Hussein".

The Palin rumors started in Alaska by eyewitnesses, who saw the daughter taken out of school, but did not see the governor showing. (Local, small-town gossip doesn't require sexism)

Now, given Palin's own past (eloping and giving birth 8 months later) perhaps she brought this on her daughter, by, one setting a bad example and two putting her political ambitions before the welfare of her family.

Not to mention how much pressure her fringe beliefs puts on a 17-year-old.

[countryjake]

104. Why are Palin's reproductive matters your's or anyone else's concern?

Try raising your consciousness a bit on why women (any woman) deserve their right to privacy. That local, small-town gossip was rooted in sexism.

[ColbertWatcher]

105. "That local, small-town gossip was rooted in sexism."

So now your hatred toward small-town folk trumps their noticing who was pregnant and who wasn't?

Look, I am responding to the original question of whether there is a substantial difference between the Palin rumor and the lie about Obama.

I provided my "difference".

You argued for why there is no difference by changing the subject.

The rumors about who was pregnant was started by eye witnesses who saw both the daughter and the governor. The lie about Obama was started by people who only saw his name. Those lies about Obama were based in racism. The rumors about Palin were based on her own past behavior and discrepancies between what she was saying and what people were seeing.

Stop changing the subject.

[countryjake]

106. You don't get hatred of small-town folk from me, buddy!

Having been born and raised near small-towns (and currently living near one) I do not judge folk on either location or background.

But I do not tolerate sexist and misogynist actions, anywhere.

What don't you understand about the right to privacy?

[ColbertWatcher]

109. "What don't you understand about not changing the subject?"

Look, this has been an interesting diversion from other things I probably should be doing (hell it's a holiday, there isn't much, regardless) the OP asked for differences. I posted differences.

Instead of picking apart my argument, you changed the subject.

Why not go back and tell me how my argument is flawed--which I'm sure it is--instead of changing the subject.

[countryjake]

110. Refer back to post # 104 and then go read post # 100...

and then explain to me what it is about my response that you don't get?

I don't see how I could "pick apart" your stance any more clearly.

[ColbertWatcher]

113. You assume people from small towns are sexist, then change the subject ...

... all without addressing my point.

Again.

[countryjake]

114. Paternalistic yammering about when, where, or how any woman becomes pregnant...

is sexist, whether one is living in a rural area, small town, suburb, major city, or timbuktu. Or a democratic underground.

It's about the right to privacy...remember the Constitution...and it's about sexism...tell me again how you or anyone else intend to conclusively prove that Palin did not give birth to the Down's baby boy. Or why that information should be anybody's business but her own. Until the fucking fundies actually do accomplish robbing us of our right to control our own bodies, I would hope that upholding certain existing constitutional principles are not ignored, simply for the sake of an election.

Peering up a woman's crotch has been a basis for the oppression of women, the subjugation of our rights, for thousands of years. It is the very tool that this government uses to deny us our inherent right to liberty. And it is the method by which the conservative right has always tried to deny us the right to abortion, as tho women have no capacity to form an opinion on when they bear a child and cannot be trusted with such decisions, because our straddles are somehow under the jurisdiction of others.

"First is the autonomous control over the development and expression of one's intellect, interests, tastes, and personality. Second is freedom of choice in the basic decisions of one's life respecting marriage, divorce, procreation, contraception, and the education and upbringing of children."

Taken directly from Justice Douglas' opinion in the Roe vs. Wade decision. I uphold Roe vs. Wade and will fight to the death any of the crafty means by which this nation seeks to overturn it. I will not, however, ignore the basic premise of it, in the defense of my and every other woman's rights.

[ColbertWatcher]

115. You assume people from small towns are sexist, then change the subject ...

... all without addressing my point.

Again.

[countryjake]

120. So you don't believe that women have a right to privacy...why not?

Next time a public health department orders an examination of your reproductive organ, give me a call and see if I care.

Sorry that some are so blind they cannot see. Your point has been addressed, sumptuously, and if you truly do have so much trouble with reading comprehension, please, try getting an education, but don't just repeat your false premise over and over, to stifle intelligent discussion.

I presented my argument...and spoke to your point; whatsa matter can't you defend it?

[ColbertWatcher]

121. Please see #109. n/t

[Rabrrrrrr]

119. Oh, fer fuck's sake - this isn't sexism, and it has nothing to do with reproductive privacy

If Sarah faked a pregnancy to cover up for her pregnant daughter, that's way beyond a "reproductive privacy" issue - it's an outright lie, it's more than likely fraud (insurance fraud, certainly), and it also shows what a lying hypocritical piece of garbage she is.

Sexism my fucking ass.

Go bark up another fucking tree with that pure bullshit, and save your hyperemotional claims of sexism for the legitimate instances when it actually IS occurring. Crying it falsely here just makes feminism and anti-sexism social crusading look pretty fucking silly, and thus discountable.

[Marr]

107. Two basic differences:

1) Palin may very well have faked that pregnancy to protect her political career (not her daughter). Obama is not a Muslim.

2) Frankly, I wasn't surprised at the way the right wing used the Muslim rumors. It's called politics and it's ugly.

[alarimer]

111. No. Both are bullshit.

And we need to stick to the issues at hand and stop repeating bullshit stories.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

116. The Palin story(s) are far more entertaining.

The Obama/Muslim story is merely laughable. The Palin Saga is hysterical.

[Crunchy Frog]

117. Yes. It's different because the Palin speculation was based on some evidence.

[ColbertWatcher]

122. THANK YOU! n/t