Is it just me or have we given far too much power to local police departments?

[ThomWV]

It is just an outrage to see city police officers armed as heavily as any infantry company in any war we've ever fought.

After watching alternative news surrounding the Republican Convention I have to ask myself why any city would have a police force as powerful as the twin cities. Then I thought about it a little bit and realized that many medium sized and virtually all large cities have what amounts to small armies wearing badges. It is not the purpose of police offices restrict the day to day goings on of anyone, be they protesters or convention goers. It is the job of police to apprehend criminals and in dam near no cases does that require anything more than harsh words or that 5-pound flashlight they carry. Why in hell do they have tanks and helicopters? What on earth are they doing with tear gas? You can not catch a bugler with tear gas and you can not catch a speeder with an armored personnel carrier. If the god damned cities need martial law then the Governor can call in his National Guard, if he's still got one, but it is simply unacceptable for every damned town and burg to have its own militia under the control of whatever nut case Chief has clawed his way to the top.

[ben_meyers]

1. Good idea, state or maybe even federal control is what is needed.

[hack89]

38. Centralized power? No thank you

the people are not centralized so neither should their power be centralized.

[BlooInBloo]

2. Well duh.

[kurth_]

3. What self-respecting police chief doesn't want to have cluster bombs?

It's total overkill. It's in their DNA.

Weird how cops want to be soldiers. Why don't they just join the military and go to Iraq?

[davidinalameda]

4. huh?

there are plenty of cops who go into law enforcement because they're serving the public

nice sweeping generalization

[Fumesucker]

5. Yes, I'm greatly impressed by the large numbers of officers coming forward..

To reveal the corruption in their departments..

There are so many that I can't possibly keep track of them all.

[BlooInBloo]

15. I like the way you snark. Fucking piece of shit criminal-protecting cops.

[kickysnana]

6. Homeland Security was in charge of all the police in St Paul/Mpls during the RNCC n/t

[izquierdista]

7. It was never given

Police departments TOOK power because nobody stopped them. They recruited psychotic authoritarian personalities, trained them that it was OK to use excessive force, ridiculed those who showed any concern for human rights and dignity, and adopted an us vs. them attitude toward the general public. They coasted through with the help of "tough on crime" politicians, buying lethal "non-lethal" weapons, assault weapons, and anything they want to increase their firepower. They point to the rare incidents of suicidal criminals going on horrendous shooting sprees as if they should be a regular part of their planning, one where they will call out a 30 man SWAT team.

The next time a cop asks for more funds to "fight crime", just say no.

[qwlauren35]

19. The Obama Platform is "More cops on the street".

Wasn't sure if you knew.

Policing is one of those awkward professions: it doesn't necessarily pay well enough for the "best" people to choose it as a career. Instead, it attracts people who expect to enjoy the work!

Given the choice between police and no police, I'll take police. However, they are very human, and very exposed to America's worst "sins". It's awkward.

I think we should do our best to support programs where police live where they work, and work where they live. I think it gives everyone more of a stake in "the relationship" between police and the community.

But then, I believe in beat cops in general.

I think most Americans would rather blindly believe that their police force "could handle anything" rather than watch them in action. However, you may be right that it would be more appropriate for the State National Guard to be called in for things like political conventions...

Oops! They're deployed in Iraq. My bad...

[midnight]

24. Sorry, but I would like to see only the best in that uniform. And

then I would like to see more of our resources transfered to accessible medical treatment, and education. We have to large of an incarceration rate. We need to use better judgment by not spending our tax dollars on the militarization of our police force.

[dajoki]

36. I must agree...

because of the personal knowledge I have about the police force in my town of 6,000 people. They are armed to the teeth and very dangerous. I could go on and on about eye witness accounts, including my own, of brutality and excessive force but let me give you just one. A few years back a local beer distributorship was broken into, my daughter's boyfriend's father lived accross the street and witnessed the whole thing. About 20 cops pulled up with THREE armored vehicles, got out in full combat gear and mode, automatic weapons, tear gas, stun grenades and helmets and body armour. Right off the bat with no warning to anyone inside, two grenades went through the window followed by tear gas and explosives to blow the door open. They entered the building in that formation they use with their shields up and found a SIXTEEN YEAR OLD kid hacking and writhing in pain. He was apparently in there watching porn on the computer and having a beer. He was dragged outside to another beating and hauled away to nobody knows where because none of this made the local paper. Like I said, this is just ONE example of many, many similar scenes in a town wher crime is/was almost irrelevant.

[babydollhead]

8. it happened in Pittsburgh

Swissvale police stormed into out kids jr. high dance, in their gymnasium, exploded pepper-spray-like grenades, and kept the doors shut, while in gas masks, and would not let them leave, forcing all to suffer and sending asthmatic kids to the hospital. The reason the police were called was about two kids fighting who had been moved outside of the building, and the teachers and adults outside with them (no adult remained in the gym,) simply hoping that the police could drive them home. My daughter kept saying, "Yesterday was career day!" and we didn't understand because she was crying and trembling. Finally, she told us that the very officer they saw pepper spray the d.j.directly in the face with pepper spray, before the grenades were exploded, was the officer who just the day before, spoke eloquently about the police force and what a good job it is and what a help to the community. No wonder she was freaked out and traumatized for so long and shaking and all of the kids calling home, seaming and crying for their mom and dad to come get them, a half an hour before the end of the dance. We thought our daughter was laughing! Not crying and were surprised to see ambulances and firetrucks and police swarming the place and all of the kids crying and crying. The next time the school had an incident they did not call the police and now the Swissvale Police Department has filed a suit against the school district to force them to always have to call the police.

[barbtries]

10. sounds like the school district

and/or the dance attendees, should be suing the police. cruel and unnecessary punishment. jeezus that is frigging scary.

[babydollhead]

16. you are right.

[Leftist Agitator]

32. Didn't the Swissvale PD just taze/beat some guy to death recently?

:shrug:

[babydollhead]

33. yes.

[barbtries]

9. i don't think "we" did -

bushies did. all part of homeland security and all that. 911. terra. fear. "we" were taken. i refuse to accept blame for the way things have gone, i did what i could since way back when. "we" are victims. my opinion.

i can't provide the link, i've been all over the net this week reading and watching about the police actions at the rnc, but i know i read somewhere that when a protester asked one of the police there a question, the response was, "i don't know, i'm from illinois." so they imported cops and it wasn't to keep the peace, it was to make war on the american patriots.

[Fumesucker]

11. The militarization of the police started a long time before 9/11/2001

And doesn't really have that much to do with 9/11 anyway.

By 9/11 the US already had the highest incarceration rate in the world.

Not that anyone really cares.

[barbtries]

12. i think it's gotten worse

with the passing of the patriot act and the DHS. before gw was president - with the exception of 1968 - i don't recall marchers being criminalized to such an extent. you're probably right and we've been on a slippery slope for years and years - but i think it's going vertical. what keeps me up at night is the uncertainty of knowing if it even can be righted at this point.

[Fumesucker]

13. I'm not uncertain at all...

I'm totally convinced there is nothing that can be done.

I've been fighting this particular fight for so long I feel like Frodo battling Mordor.

We are doomed, and I have grandkids.

And what's worse is my daughter and son in law are totally oblivious to all this, it's like talking to the wall to try and get them to understand. They aren't stupid, aren't freepers, but they are so *conventional* that they can't possibly see my point.

[babydollhead]

17. I always considered my husband to be a pacifist

when it turns out he is really just an ignorant ostrich, with his head buried. My own sister yells at me if i try and tell her about lead in the kids lunch boxes, mercury in the tuna, endless war, which could someday involve her little boy who is only two, and she says, "I can't worry about everything!"

[barbtries]

18. i have grandkids too,

and when i talk about it with my 32-year-old son, he practically starts snoring in my ear. it's like the whole country with the exception of the people on DU (and other lefty websites) is hypnotized or sedated. how can he not get it? his kids are just a few short years away from possibly being conscripted into some rich bastard's war. democracy is fragile and it's going away in the united states and he just wants to work, play, and take care of his family.

and i was every bit as apathetic at his age. especially after the first gulf war. i was so disgusted i just quit looking, for years. i voted and that's all i did. maybe i am at fault...nah, no time for that. i'm awake now and i never voted republican in my life. whew. conscience clear. :shrug:

[babydollhead]

20. I think we should come clean with the children

Children!
Listen to us. We will fall back asleep and not even remember telling you this. It's true. We are leaving you a hell of a mess to clean up. You must never forget that we are telling you to take a firm hold of what you can, build strong communities, eat locally grown food, farm, barter, play music and sing around a fire at night. Be kind to each other. Take care of our only earth. Find something to do which gives you joy enough to disappear into. Find friends and know them well. Love somebody. It felt hopeful to me when I was little. Feel hopeful. Don't hate us for doing this to the place. Pity us. We are sorry.

[Fumesucker]

21. Not just lefties....

I know that it's not cool on DU to speak well of Ron Paul supporters, but I know a few of them and they are just as disturbed as we are by the militarization of the police.

I had a tiny spark of hope I was blowing on and shielding, then Obama picked Biden and my hope went right out.

We are done for, it's really only a matter of time now.

[DCKit]

26. Remember how the police demanded more powerful weapons...

back in the 80's because of the (BFEE/Iran/Contra) crack epidemic and the prevalence of legal assault weapons in the hands of drug dealers defending their trade?

It would have been fairly easy to ban the assault weapons, institute draconian sentences for illegal possession and make the streets safer for everyone, but they didn't. Instead, they used the second amendment as cover to set it up. See how that works?

The number of money making angles made possible by "Teh War on Drugs" is mind-boggling - drug dealing, arms dealing, government contracts, airplane leasing, property seizures and increased funding of law and order directed straight to the pockets of the corporations supplying both sides.

Never will another Republic match the skill of G.H.W. Bush, a true criminal mastermind. No wonder W feels so inadequate.

We're the biggest suckers in history.

[crickets]

28. ^This.

As you point out, the trouble is prisons are profitable.

So are the drugs being illegally funneled (often by, or at least under the blind eye of certain elements of the guvmint itself) into the country on purpose to continue stoking the machine. It's disgusting, and it is the main problem.

You can ban the assault weapons, legalize marijuana and tax the hell out of it, and remove financial profit from the prison sector but the problem will still remain as long as the criminal element in government itself continues to smuggle hard drugs with impunity.

Screw you, Ollie North. Screw you and the rest of the heinous criminals involved, and screw the people who didn't put you and your kind away where you belonged and who are still allowing this to go on.

[Lars39]

14. Homeland Security now works closely with police departments, too.

Very disturbing.

[midnight]

22. Please send this to Senator Obama. And let him know that

we want our National Guard home too.

[stillcool]

23. We've lost all protection against our government...

the law is not on our side anymore since no one in government can be held accountable. We are all terrorists.

[High Plains]

25. We give the cops free rein to fight wars against bogeymen.

Wars we can't win, but that are extremely profitable for those involved in waging them.

Wars against inanimate objects (war on drugs).

Wars against abstractions (war on terror).

As a society, we have been scared into supporting ever more encroachments on our rights and ever more expansion of police powers.

We need EFFECTIVE CONTROLS over the police. Civilian review boards, accountability, prosecutions...

[crickets]

27. No, it's not just you.

Police are supposed to be there to serve and to protect. They are not supposed to be a paramilitary adjunct which views citizens as not just potential lawbreakers but potential 'enemies.' The rise of the SWAT team and the War on Drugs, among other things, has wreaked havoc with the relationship between law enforcement and the citizenry. Enter Homeland Security and the nightmare is complete.

[unkachuck]

29. seldom a day goes by....

....without a cop shooting or killing someone around here....and how secure does this make you feel when:

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

....fascist thugs dressed in combat gear carrying military assult rifles can yell, 'warrent', and then bash your door down in less than one second and charge in with weapons readied to be used?

....just the act of serving the warrent seems like an unreasonable search to me....the ruling class must be afraid of everyone for the screwing they've been giving us....

[hootinholler]

30. No, we've given too much power to the fed to control them...

If they don't play nice with JTTF they don't get any toys. So maybe the toys thing is part of the problem but it's coming from the fed not from the locality.

Just my opinion.

-Hoot

[bertman]

31. Excellent post, ThomWV. Yes, we have given a lot of power to them, but the "government" has also

been highly instrumental in paving the way as has been pointed out by a number of posters on this thread.

The few times in my life that I have had to call the police I have been very glad to see them when they arrived. Most of the officers I have known were good people; although, the circumstances they face daily--which most of us will NEVER have to face--often make them cynical and tend to push them toward a fascist/us-versus-them mentality. Couple that with the fairly recent concept of the police being equipped to quell organized insurrection and you have a mindset of paramilitary proportions.

What we have to keep in mind is that the Judiciary is there to keep the police in check. They must have a warrant to invade a home. They are required to present credible evidence to arrest and prosecute. If they abuse their power they are subject to suit. Unfortunately, nowadays the judiciary is often less than vigilant in its dealings with our "peace" officers.

A number of posters have alluded to the apathy of their friends and family. They complain that their children are ignorant of what's going on around them or, if aware, are too apathetic to do anything about it. This is why our democracy is failing and will continue to fail until it is a tyranny (yes, we are almost there). We working-class folks are just too overwhelmed with LIFE and making a living to be up-to-speed on the latest outrage. It is very difficult to be a parent, worker, soccer/baseball/hockey coach, PTA member, loving brother or sister, friend, environmentalist, supporter of the arts and local creative persons, plus be a politically well-informed and active person. That's why the movers and shakers are usually wealthy. They don't have to fret over the basics because they hire out the work. That leaves them free time to pursue their political agenda, be it liberal or conservative.

I don't see how we're going to overcome this.

Right now, there is growing awareness of things political because our lives are changing very dramatically. Food prices, gas prices are going up. Home prices are going down. Job opportunities are decreasing, unless you can survive on a fast-food server's wages. The country's infrastructure is starting to deteriorate. The natural world is suffering visibly around us. Our government can't even help us when natural disasters strike. So, now many of us who were blissfully ignorant are becoming aware. And angry.

As the economic decline continues and the ecological disasters grow in number and scope, more and more of us will become aware. And angry.

When we finally overcome the hypnosis of the Mass Media and realize that our political leaders are more interested in their personal financial well-being than our well-being, then the Anger will motivate us to act.

And that's when these local police, who have been trained in "population control" techniques, dressed in their combat gear, with their kevlar vests, helmets and M16's will be the first line of control against those of us feel we have no other option than to march against the powers-that-be.

The question then will be: will the police recognize the plight of the people and empathize with us? Or will they follow orders and put down the dissenters because they believe the propaganda and because they are trained to DO AS THEY ARE TOLD--as we saw happen in Minneapolis last week?

Which brings me to another question. How did the police actions that were undertaken in Minneapolis affect the police officers? I realize that when they are on the street in full riot gear they are in a potentially dangerous and threatening situation so they don't have time to reflect on what they're doing. But what did those cops think about breaking into the homes of citizens who were not breaking any laws? Or stopping lawful, peaceful demonstrators from exercising their First Amendment rights? After all, they're just citizens like you and I.

[riverdeep]

34. What did the cops think?

Interesting question. I expect most of them rationalized it, the human mind is capable of rationalizing practically anything. I expect a few were troubled, and I expect with a few it didn't even register as anything to be concerned about.

[bertman]

37. riverdeep, I believe you're right. It's very hard to imagine that the police officers are any more

inclined to introspection than the rest of the population. Still, I think there can be a tipping point where things get so bad that even the enforcers begin to see that the injustice is too great.

The big question is when might that happen? Another factor would be if some Americans begin to actively revolt, which would likely have the effect of uniting the police.

I hate that we even have to give voice to these thoughts. The world has certainly changed since I was a kid in the 50's and early 60's.

[riverdeep]

35. I think the tipping point for the militarization of local PD was the ramping of the Drug War.

At that point they had the money and the rationale for all sorts of toys.

But police, as an institution, have always had a preferential bias to the powerful, going back to the days when the powerful lords and chieftans had their own police force. Individuals vary, but it doesn't really matter how good or bad an individual is if the policy is bad. They conform or get punished themselves.

[hfojvt]

39. buglers may only be armed with brass instruments

but do you really think we want to call out the National Guard for every Columbine or Virginia Tech, not to mention any other heavily armed gang of thugs that could easily take over a city that was only protected by five pound flashlights?

Of course I wonder how England manages to protect themselves from hoodlums with bloody knives and fancy karate gimmicks. England prevails.

Here in KC recently there was a crazy person trying to shoot up a shopping mall. I found it kinda inspiring to see a cop grab a shotgun and go sprinting into danger to protect the shopping public and workers in the stores.

Sometimes, dammit Jim, I like cops.