How many civilians do you think died in the McCain bombings of Hanoi?

[Stanchetalarooni]

Any valid/reliable statistics available?

[gateley]

1. A lot. But it's not really relevant, and not sure what we could accomplish with that. nt

[Stanchetalarooni]

6. War is always relevant to this country of ours. I found this info to answer my own query.

But mistakes happen. During the first six months of 1967, while McCain was part of an attack squadron of A-4 Skyhawks on the carrier Oriskany in the South China Sea, North Vietnamese officials said some 167 schools were bombed, along with 230 churches, three seminaries, and 23 pagodas. In late September—just a month before McCain's crash on his 23rd bombing run—U.S. planes managed to drop four massive container bombs (2,400 pellet bombs apiece) on a grade school in Thanh Hoa province, south of Hanoi. The school had just reopened after the summer recess and, according to Vietnamese reports, the attack killed 33 pupils, ages 8 to 12. Thirty more were wounded, including two teachers. That was a single incident. The American estimate is that the 1965-68 bombing campaign killed between 52,000 and 182,000 civilians; the Vietnamese claim the figure was several times higher.

[gateley]

20. Oh, I'm in total agreement with you on that - I was thinking strategically

regarding the election.

And though I find the info you provide really disturbing, that's war. The horrors weren't confined to his squadron and we're committing similar acts now.

War is heartbreaking and just WRONG. I hate it.

[hedgehog]

10. At best, we'd be shooting ourselves in the foot to even mention this.

That said, I find it remarkable that McCain complains about the poor medical care he received when he was doing his damnedest to "bomb North Viet Nam back into the Stone Age". It's the cluelessness tht gets to me. Did it ever occur to him that all those bombs he and hos buddies were dropping had an effect on the people they were bombing?

[onenote]

2. what exactly would the point be of going there?

Do you think its going to change anyone's mind?

[Truth2Tell]

12. Maybe it won't change anyone's mind about McSame,

but maybe it will help some of the Afghan war-hawks on this board think about the fact that the "leadership" of our own Party is supporting the same exact type of child burning today.

Just sayin'.

[Life Long Dem]

3. McSame is a POW.

:patriot:

[elocs]

4. On the CBS Morning Show this morning I heard Bob Schieffer refer to McCain

as a "fighter pilot". I do think there is a difference between a fighter pilot and a bomber and I think that Schieffer should know better.

[The Traveler]

9. Fighters have long been used

for "interdiction" bombing or precision bombing. Naval aircraft tend to be multi-mission birds, capable of being tooled up for air-to-air or air-to-ground operations.

[leftofcool]

5. Probably as many as the other 200 pilots who also dropped bombs

Maybe you could find out how many total Vietnamese civilian and military casualties there were then divide that by how many American soldiers and pilots who fought, then you would know how many each American soldier and pilot killed. Be sure and let us know so those of us who have husbands who were soldiers then and fought there can condemn them for how many they killed.

[Stanchetalarooni]

8. I am not looking to condemn anyone. Just to increase awareness.

Most of those kids who fight/fought think that they are doing the righteous thing for Democracy.
Most bomber pilots just followed orders. Where have we heard that before.

[BlooInBloo]

7. I'm certainly not gonna validate the "they spit on the troops" bullshit.

[Stanchetalarooni]

11. I have much compassion for those that are asked to kill others for a lie.

No spit from these quarters.

[leftofcool]

14. But that is exactly what the poster is trying to do

it happened then and is happening now to our soldiers coming home from Iraq, more than reported

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

13. Maybe as many or more than the 9-11 attacks?

Not much of a difference, IMO.

[DinahMoeHum]

15. There's a helluva lot of stuff we can bash McCain with. This is NOT one of them.

Drop it.

And BTW, George McGovern and Howard Zinn were also bomber pilots. Why not ask THEM how many civilians THEY killed?

[Stanchetalarooni]

21. Here is what Zinn has to say. You do the search for McGovern.

A Violent Cartography
Bomb After Bomb
By HOWARD ZINN

We might think that at least those individuals in the U.S. Air Force who dropped bombs on civilian populations were aware of what terror they were inflicting, but as one of those I can testify that this is not so. Bombing from five miles high, I and my fellow crew members could not see what was happening on the ground. We could not hear screams or see blood, could not see torn bodies, crushed limbs. Is it any wonder we see fliers going out on mission after mission, apparently unmoved by thoughts of what they have wrought.

It was not until after the war, when I read John Hersey's interviews with Japanese survivors of Hiroshima, who described what they had endured, that I became aware, in excruciating detail, of what my bombs had done. I then looked further. I learned of the firebombing of Tokyo in March of 1945, in which perhaps a hundred thousand people died. I learned about the bombing of Dresden, and the creation of a firestorm which cost the lives of 80,000 to 100,000 residents of that city. I learned of the bombing of Hamburg and Frankfurt and other cities in Europe.

We know now that perhaps 600,000 civilians--men, women, and children-died in the bombings of Europe. And an equal number died in the bombings of Japan. What could possibly justify such carnage? Winning the war against Fascism? Yes, we "won". But what did we win? Was it a new world? Had we done away with Fascism in the world, with racism, with militarism, with hunger and disease? Despite the noble words of the United Nations charter about ending "the scourge of war" - had we done away with war?

[DinahMoeHum]

26. You do the search on McGovern yourself.

I have nothing to prove here. You do.

And you'll find that both Republicans and Democrats were bomber pilots. That in itself doesn't mean shit. Question is, did they learn something about themselves and the world after their participation in a war? Did they have regrets? Evidently, Zinn and McGovern did; McCain really didn't.

Find some other argument to hang McCain with, not this. There's a awful lot better out there.

[The Traveler]

16. War universally sucks

largely because civilians are always caught in the middle of the mess.

Stupid wars suck harder. Viet Nam was a dumb war, but given all the cold war stuff going on around the world it is easier to understand how we got suckered into the mess. Iraq is, of course, dumber.

Not sure we could or should have stayed out of Afghanistan. Nope, the idea of fighting that one does not really bother me. I have a lot of gripes about HOW it has been fought ... hey ... wait a minute ... it's another dumb war, dumb because we have been fighting it stupidly, and part of that stupidity results in unnecessary civilian casualties. And that takes me back to ...

War universally sucks. Stupid wars suck harder.

Trav

[NeedleCast]

17. Oh yeah...this is a good campaign strategy...

Questions in this line will end well...

[slackmaster]

18. The merits of the Vietnam War was always a great topic of conversation in my family in the '60s

:hide:

In before someone mentions the number of civilians murdered by the VC in the south from 1958-1967. Or the Tet offensive, or the massacre at Hue...

[Stanchetalarooni]

19. Let's not ask any questions that lack proper due respect, yes?

[NeedleCast]

23. Try "Lets not ask questions that will certainly cost us the election"

Doesn't matter if the question lacks due respect or not. I give a shit about McCain's service record, and I'm a veteran. Being a veteran or PoW or even being a Hero (which I don't think McCain is) doesn't mean they should get to be President on those grounds alone.

But if you're going to attack veterans on their service records, unless they've done something way outside the bounds of the rules of engagement, you're going to lose.

Because the next step is someone going, "why stop there!"

My grandfather was a bombardier in WW-II flying in B-17s over Germany and then B-29s over Japanese territory. He dropped a lot of bombs that killed a lot of people. Maybe we should round up all those WW-II vets and put them to the inquisition too.

War is bad, and when you put your means of production near your civilian population (which is pretty natural) civilians are going to get killed. I don't hold flying combat missions against McCain. That's part of being at war, whether you feel that particular war is justified or not.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

22. Ssssh!! He's a "hero" who was "defending" his country by killing civilians.

And, he has the tinware to prove it.

[bigtree]

24. I don't think he picked the targets

He certainly didn't start the war. Get off of it.

[Stanchetalarooni]

25. He has had many years to assess the damage. Many years.

He continues to advocate 100 yrs war. I won't get off it.

[GrantDem]

27. This was sent to me from a friend shortly after McSame's speech...

Regarding McCain's speech:

I was also Naval Air and served on a carrier in Vietnam. Last night, Senator McCain said that he was in the Hanoi Hilton and could hear the "carpet bombing" outside. He has his facts wrong.

Hanoi was off-limits for any type of bombing mission because of the large civilian population and we did not know the exact location of POWs and wounded. Unlike today's high tech weapon systems, there was a high probability that our 60's style optically-controlled bombs or guided missiles would miss their mark.

In addition, if we had carpet bombed the northern capital, it would have no longer existed. Both the Forrestal and Hancock carried more than enough fire power to level an entire small state, little alone a city - even without the nukes.

I respect Senator McCain for what he was, but not for what he has become.