Busted!: Gallup, CBS, USA.Today, etc. Tinkers With Party ID Again

[deminks]

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/9/9/18192/04144/290/592615

The Huffington's Post, Seth Colter Walls, wrote a blockbuster article today, highlighting the fact that most of the major polls that are currently freaking out Obama supporters are the result of questionable Party Id shifts. This is despite the fact that Democrats have a 11million vote advantage (& counting) over the GOP.

Many of us are familiar with these tricks. But every time a new poll comes out (this time after the GOP convention) we don't examine if we can even get the cross-tabs, and we freak out, or accept the fact that Obama is down, with out question.

These firms can't stop the madness and their still diddling around on behalf of their media masters.

This week's mainstream coverage of the presidential horse-race has been dominated by a series of polls showing the McCain-Palin ticket with its first stable lead over Obama and Biden. Gallup's tracking poll, USA Today and CBS News all show the Republicans with some kind of lead over the Democratic ticket. But, interestingly, all three polls were also conducted using a higher sampling of Republican voters than in July, thus raising a question of methodology.

Link to Huffpo article:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/09/09/poll-madness-mccain-takes_n_125158.html

[depakid]

1. The basic premise in America for some time has been

that cheap polls like this are meant to INFLUENCE public opinion and NOT reflect it.

And there are many ways in which they do it. Weighting, playing with the multi-stage clustering, asking equivocating questions... the list goes on and on.

[fascisthunter]

4. BINGO!

and unfortunately, it influences campaigns as well as voters.

[depakid]

11. Campaigns spend a lot of money on their own internals

Accurate research is time consuming and expensive.

Yet another reason why cheap media polls always suspect.

[fascisthunter]

12. Yes... I Know They Do Internal Polling...

unfortunately, polls influence media, and their personalities working in the corporate media. They change the dynamic the media plays with their American viewers and that in turn influences the campaign. That's why I try to tell folks to ignore these corporate polls....

[The Backlash Cometh]

13. That's why it's so dangerous to allow them to state that the polls are so close.

If people think that the polls are close -- within the error of margin -- then it will be easier to steal an election. Imagine how hard it be to do if the polls stated there was a fifteen percent difference?

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

24. Not hard at all.

Bullshit explanation #1: With such a convincing lead in the polls, Candidate X's voters didn't feel the need to show up at the voting booth.

Bullshit explanation #2: Voters were motivated to overcome daunting polling results, turning out in droves!

[The Backlash Cometh]

29. No. 3

Republicans work, so they don't vote until after 6:00. That's why there's a flip in the votes at the end of the night.

And, erm, that was "margin of error."

[King Coal]

84. Bingo! That is what is so scary. If they steal another election, what will we do?

[fasttense]

75. Polls are meant to influence public opinion which is why the CIA used

fake polls in Venezuela and in Costa Rico.

We have now turned the corner and are officially a banana republic. Only in Banana Republics are polls used to manipulate and hide the real vote count. Thanks Republicons.

[L0oniX]

82. Cheap polls from China to attract the lemming crowd no doubt.

:evilgrin:

[ailsagirl]

2. kick

[AzDar]

3. Kick!

:kick:

[still_one]

5. What an execellent observation /nt

[dbonds]

6. Good article, just as I suspected.

[snappyturtle]

7. K&R We're not surprised are we....surprised that the msm isn't

reporting the sampling sizes and that 'they' would do this (cheat) in the first place?

[berni_mccoy]

8. I'm Really Tired of GALLUP'S BS TACTICS!

[annabanana]

9. Every single poll number that comes out of these shops from now on:

*PROVE IT*

Without the interior architecture, they are to be presumed false.... Publish your parameters or STFU!

[deminks]

10. Like the Kos author says: Stay Strong, Campaign, Phone Bank, Donate to Obama if you can.

:dem: :dem: :dem:

[Aslanspal]

46. I agree with this and add also

On the day of the groundgame/war use that vehicle and pack it with friends, family, like minded, elderly,young adult and newly registered democrats to the polls and be educated on voter caging and suppression, support those you have taken to the polls even if it takes 2,4,6, and 8 hours, do whatever it takes whether it is child care, telephoning work, feeding them a meal and just telling them the stakes are high and every vote really does count and reassure them once we win, we will change the election laws and will bury voter caging and voter suppression forever and ever, but we need to win this one and it means 24 hours of work and follow through.

This is the year we say "enough!"

[ladym55]

54. And let me add

in those states with early voting or open absentee balloting ... DO IT!! You have a paper ballot then and proof of voting. So when the Rethugs turn off the electricity to your polling place on Election Day ... your ballot is ALREADY in the hands of the BOE. That's another component of the Obama campaign strategy.

[Aslanspal]

85. I agree

Work all our options be prepared, I think they will pull back their voter suppression if it is so obvious the margins are not close and lines are backed into the parking lot and people are intent on voting regardless of weather and suppression.

Once we win this thing, THEN! we can reform election laws and protect voters from caging and suppression but we have got to win, make no mistake about it.

[ladym55]

86. And here's how Ohio is fighting back

I just posted this link in the Ohio forum, but I'll add it here, too. Ohio now has a Democrat as Secretary of State, Jennifer Brunner. She ran on the platform of having clean elections in Ohio and has been fighting the Republicans hard to avoid a repeat of 2004.

Here's the article:

http://www.truthout.org/article/ohio-secretary-state-brunner-does-right-voters

[Barack_America]

14. The only polls I trust are Obama's internals...

And I don't get to see those.

So yeah, I don't waste much time on polls.

But thanks for pointing this out; we should have suspected as much.

[cui bono]

15. k & r

[Roland99]

16. Gallup was BIG TIME doing that same thing in 2004

[Firespirit]

17. I hate to suggest this, but how do we KNOW that (R) ID has not gone up?

Palin really seems to have energized the whacko base.

Enthusiasm for McSame is on the rise.

I honestly would not be surprised at this point if the (R) ID really was going up significantly from July.

[bettyellen]

18. the republicans have been losing voters steadily for years, dems have a huge surge this year

the stats - real numbers0 are out there. go look!

[progressoid]

22. Read further down in the article...

One day before USA Today announced its new poll numbers, it also ran an Associated Press story with the headline "Democrats Post Big Gains In Voter Registration." In that article, the AP noted that, during the primary season, "more than 2 million Democrats to voter rolls in the 28 states that register voters according to party affiliation. The Republicans have lost nearly 344,000 thousand voters in the same states."

The article proceeded to lay out a variety of statistics that favor Democrats:

Nationwide, there are about 42 million registered Democrats and about 31 million Republicans, according to statistics compiled by The Associated Press.

The Democrats have posted big gains in many competitive states, including Nevada, New Hampshire, Iowa, Colorado and Florida. They have also been targeting historically Republican southern states.

Since 2006, the Democrats have added 167,000 voters in North Carolina, while the Republicans have added 36,000.

[Firespirit]

28. This election is not going to mirror those figures.

I'm sorry, but I refuse to stick my head in the sand about the recent developments and comfort myself with primary registration numbers. We've had an RV advantage for years, but every single election has been an uphill battle. Fraud is part of it, but another factor is people -- and there are more than you'd think -- who are registered D but identify as R for national elections because they are "conservative" and think that "liberalism" is the source of all evil.

Roughly 50% of America gets it. 30%, the backwash, will never get it. 20% will not get it until they see that liberalism works, because they were brainwashed by Nixon and Reagan. We just need to get in power and then govern liberally, so that people will get used to the idea and see it in action. The national stalemate will NOT be broken until that occurs.

[alittlelark]

25. The corporate media wants you to believe that.....

mission accomplished.

[bemildred]

19. Follow the money. nt

[Uncle Joe]

20. Kicked and recommended.

Thanks for the thread, deminks.

[brettdale]

21. One reason you shouldnt trust Gallap

is that Bill O'reilly loves them and always has them on his show.

[HughMoran]

23. Fine with me - I'd prefer they underestimate a bit rather than the opposite

No bad surprises this time.

[Festivito]

26. And they've been plastering every top of the hour newscast.

They are ready to steal and make it look normal.

[ellenfl]

27. this 58 year old woman is ready to take to the streets

if the republics steal another election. i have been saying for i-don't-know-how-long that the polls are artificially close so the election can be stolen. we cannot let that happen.

obama HAS to fix our electoral system when he becomes prez.

ellen fl

[fasttense]

76. I'm with you ellenfl but Obama has got to stand up and not accept it too. n/t

[PATRICK]

30. Is this true every post Convention poll

that they magnify bounces by going to that party's voters who are both more excited(and apt to answer the pollster strongly) than the other party? The damned newspapers also bend themselves into pretzels(hiding behind the AP mostly) to hype uncritically the Convention big speech. that is so no local news editor or reporter has to testify under oath that they fell asleep or switched to football during McCain's oratory.

From reading the headlines, over and over replaying the now nonsensical narrative of maverick(devoid of even knowing what that means as much as devoid of examples that would offend the RW, you would think that sorry pile of vacuum dust was on a par on issues and ideas and political strength with Obama's speech.

Corporate reporting is best exemplified by your business or trade magazines, which are universally positive, soppy, blue sky simplicity with attention only to the narrowest, dullest details and personal interest stories. The mind numbing universal dull impression they give wherever they turn their tinted gaze is their(and theirs alone) orderly common denominator for all life's order and choices.

Before the primary season ever began the tone shifted- after meetings with Rove and other puppy beaters-
against Democrats. They very much want to, under pressure to deny reality, to give the impression that McCain will win or even better, create a neck and neck drama. In the Dole and Goldwater drubbings, by virtue of incumbency power and popular leanings, the tone allowed for the dissing of the unpopular GOP model. This year is strange. McCain's rocky and unenthusiastic road to the nomination and subsequent failures has given nothing real to pin their slant on. It is as real as Bush's popularity or legacy that the MSM continually pumped, sought hope for, gave helpful suggestions for, but nothing but nothing ever materialized. 9/11 and fraud. That is the only thing that keeps the MSM from having poll numbers as low as Congress or Cheney in their quest to make it work for the mystifying power of the GOP.

[robcon]

31. I think there is no basis for this.

No polling company should EVER control for political party in their polling.

Political party affiliation is a malleable statistic. Independents who show a preference for Obama are more likely to call them selves Democrats, and independents who prefer McCain are more likely to claim they are Republicans.

Polls control for geography, sex, and age, and sometimes for likelihood of voting (unless it's an "eligible voters" poll.) Controlling for party affiliation would be a major statistical mistake.

[bemildred]

32. The point is that one may control for anything one likes, and they do.

The polls are controlled to support the current party line of the state propaganda organs. It is easy, and it pays well.

[robcon]

33. Yeah - it's all a conspiracy

I think you are highly gullible, if you think there is a vast conspiracy among ABC, WaPo, NYT, Gallup, CBS, Rasmussen, Quinnipiac, Zogby, CNN, etc.

The polls are "controlled," they're the "current party line" and they are "state propaganda organs."

That's what's happening - it's all government-controlled. :sarcasm:

[nolabels]

40. Is that sarcasm laid on sarcasm or did i miss something?

Like well shit howdy, somebody actually investigated and came up with the evidence to confirm what we already knew but somehow it's a conspiracy laced with sarcasm to actually contemplate such things. They have everybody where they want them, confused as hell and pointing fingers at each other.

Anybody that thinks those corporations have gotten control over their billion dollar enterprises by pulling up their own bootstraps IS delusional. The closest word to such practice collusion, it's done with communication and without it. That certaion trait is a practice that all humans (and most other life forms) exhibit, the question is at what point does the rest of the establishment determine it criminal.

Through my years of observation of this trait i have determined it more like seeing how a flock of birds operates than anything that actually cognitive. Wake up, move out of way and watch how the herds flow, after awhile it may even become interesting :shrug:

[robcon]

42. Your perception of collusion is another word for paranoia, IMO.

But you created a nice strawman, though: "Anybody that thinks those corporations have gotten control over their billion dollar enterprises by pulling up their own bootstraps IS delusional." Congrats for that.

When numerous polls come up with similar results, most people would say that's confirmation of the results. Only the paranoid, IMO, would say that's evidence of collusion.

[nolabels]

51. So how many billion dollar corporations do you sit on the board of?

Wake up and smell the coffee already. My prognosis is that in our dog eat dog world people will do and say just about anything for this perception that they have a better position than the ones around them, and often times they even do it unconsciously. Not that i should care, but such ideals will often lead to some very circular debates if communicated.

If it's paranoid to not want a percentage of my labor contributing to the deaths of people on the other side of world, then it's even more paranoid to think it's for my (or your or our) own good :shrug:

[robcon]

55. It's not paranoid "to not want a percentage of my labor contributing to the deaths of people"

That's just a political opinion, and is another strawman you try to argue with - showing that you don't see your problem, IMO.

It is paranoid, however, to think that all the polls are fixed or are "state propaganda" because they largely agree with each other. To make that case you'll need more evidence of collusion or government control than you have, because you have none.

[nolabels]

67. Perhaps you don't understand how they work

The pols are not conducted just to tell you how everybody else feels, that is only their secondary function. The pollsters are engaged in process of finding softness and weak points to help the people who pay for them. The idea of releasing the data just serves as the barrier to help get the herd to travel in the direction they want.

To get some evidence they might pushing for skewed result to influence or even fool others in the process should not be surprising. It is still part of how people are being influenced and how they get people to believe things. The process is not important to them, it's the end result they are looking for.


To be honest it just looks like a more elaborate way to herd cattle, and they don't really care what we think too much. Those people paying the tab for the polls to conducted just figure we are all just part of the herd the collective corporations owns.


WELCOME - Herd Management 2000 - Cattle Edition
(snip)
Computers have been around for quite sometime. Cattle ranchers need to take advantage of this magnificent computing technology along with a solid herd management database software to manage their ranch operation better. You'll appreciate how much Herd Management 2000 will help you to keep track of your cattle better for years to come. With its simple and easy to understand design, Herd Management 2000 will save you (ranchers, breeders, yard feeders, and veterinarians) hours spent on the computer so you will have more time to physically manage your herd.
(snip)
http://www.firststepsoftware.com/cattle/index.htm

In the very least it's important for them to keep enough hands in the Senate to keep the filibuster alive. They don't want others undoing their handiwork from years past

[robcon]

88. Ah, you've read the minds, since you have no evidence of what the "pollsters" have done.

No "who, what, when, where, why" is necessary when you believe you've read the minds of ABC, WaPo, NYT, Gallup, CBS, Rasmussen, Quinnipiac, Zogby, CNN, and others.

Life is very very simplistic if you think 'They're all the same. All pollsters have the same set of dirty objectives, so there's no need for a trail of evidence: motivation (in your fevered mind) is proof!'

Pathetic.

[nolabels]

89. Yea, my idea is that they are all the same

Talk about mind reading :shrug:

The idea about getting what they are paying for must not of crossed the mind. This other idea of simplifying things and stripping off the veneer to identify the working parts might be offensive to some, but that is just a primary tool i use to solve the puzzles i am looking at. It also makes it easier understand the intent and function those engaged in their chosen occupation or trade. Yes, i do believe all pollsters have very similar objectives.

As to this subjective word 'dirty' is all dependent on how one looks at it at any particular time.

[robcon]

90. Your 'clarity' is naive and stupid.

You've got conclusions without evidence, and you claim it's because you've simplified things.

Yes, things are simple when you don't need no stinkin' evidence, when you 'imagine' each of the various polling organizations' motives and therefore things are "clear" to you.

Most people need evidence. It is simplified, but not rational, to make evidence-free conclusions.

[nolabels]

92. I forgot to ask, whom should i be trying to convict anyway?

I was not trying to point fingers at individual pollsters but more of the idea of identifying a process. Mostly i try identify the flow rather and how it works rather than focus on minutia that i can do little about. As to an organizations or individual motive, i don't find that as something to be overly concerned with since i am not the footing the bill for the poll. To me it seems that just like the electricity or water utilities, i have some concern and control of how would get to our house. Regardless of that fact of how it gets here at the house it will still have to flow into the home for the home to function.

My conclusion is that pollsters use prodding and poking at the electorates opinions to determine which efforts and directions campaigns and candidates focus their attention. They do it in effort to steer the electorate in direction that would be beneficial to them. That is how i understand it works. As for the how polling is being done and it being moral or amoral scientific objective people engage in i am ambiguous on a conclusion for that aspect

[bemildred]

45. There is no conspiracy.

It's all quite open, in it's way, and it's how governments are usually run, anywhere you go. It's what public relations is all about, spin and shading and tweaking the numbers to look a bit better. It is gullible people that do not question or criticize what they are told that allow it to continue. Polling companies are businesses, they are in it to make money. Why am I supposed to trust them?

[Gormy Cuss]

41. Election pollsters pay attention to party because it does matter.

Party affiliation is a known factor in voter preference and it would be silly to ignore it. There are even known patterns in how independents vote, but that's an aside. A poll of 800-1000 likely voters could be skewed dramatically if too many Repubs or Dems were queried. Similarly, polling likely voters often produces different and better results than polling registered voters or polling adults without asking the registration question.

The key question in the Huffposter's article is whether the pollsters are adjusting proportions correctly based on the massive new registration of Democratic party affiliates. There are legitimate questions of sampling frame and affiliation quotas raised by the experts mentioned in the article.

[robcon]

48. The problem isn't that it doesn't matter. It's whether it's changeable.

You wrote: "Party affiliation is a known factor in voter preference and it would be silly to ignore it. "

The problem is that you'd be chasing your own tail if you used it to adjust your poll. When Obama was ascendant, more independents said they were Democrats, and now that McCain has drawn even, more independents claim to be Republicans. If you controlled for Democrats/Republicans/Independents in every poll, you would underestimate Obama's popularity after the Democratic Convention, for example, and understate McCain's popularity after his convention.

It's a statistical trap, and no reputable pollster would control for party, since party affiliation is variable.

[Gormy Cuss]

53. Are you speaking as an election pollster?

IIRC one of those quoted stated there are two principal ways that list for polling are developed, one based on purchased voter registration lists (presumbably where declared affiliation is a data point) and the other being a more typical, probably RDD sample where affiliation is one of the questions asked. Quite frankly I was surprised that pollsters would use purchased registration data over an RDD approach. Some of the comments from pollsters suggest that's not the case, and also suggest that they are quite aware of the flexibility of claimed party affiliation based on events like convention speeches, just as they track and try to control for varying rates of voting based on age and other demographics.

I've never done election polling (just general public opinion polling) and don't know whether their evidence from past elections supports using party affiliation from registration lists or whether the pollsters who do so are just rank amateurs or frauds.


on edit: I removed "control" from my previous post because that was a bad choice of words.

[bemildred]

60. What I would really like to see is a correlation between poll results and election results.

As in: "What is the mean difference between the poll results of pollster X at Y weeks before the election and the eventual result of the election?" That might offer some insight into the utility and integrity of results published by pollster X.

[Gormy Cuss]

66. I've been looking for that sort of analysis myself.

It's the sort of thing that should show up in papers published in journals like Public Opinion Quarterly but I'm not finding web links and don't have the time to go through library stacks looking for it.

[On the Road]

58. I Have Seen Distributions of Registered Voters

which favor the Democrats. However, I don't remember seeing distributions of actual voters. Do you have information on that?

BTW, I agree with you on weighting by party. Whether pollsters do that and how they do it probably accounts for a lot of the strange variation in this year's polls.

[On the Road]

59. I Have Seen Distributions of Registered Voters

which favor the Democrats. However, I don't remember seeing distributions of actual voters. Do you have information on that?

BTW, I agree with you on weighting by party. Whether pollsters do that and how they do it probably accounts for a lot of the strange variation in this year's polls.

[morffin]

34. Make the polls close

So a stolen election is not as obvious.

[wowimthere]

63. That's right. It worked in 2000 and 2004. Republicans helped by MSM

[lisainmilo]

35. They continue the brainwashing and voter swaying!

Boy oh Boy! They really want to keep the small people at bay, they are afraid of losing they corporate powers and will stop at nothing to retain control over the government (We the People).

[pleah]

36. K&R

The only way McCrazy and Bushette will win this election is by stealing it.

[NoFederales]

37. Explain to me how the success of Dean's 50 State Strategy can exist,

and yet, no Election Verification Strategy? or no Election Voter Sanctity org, or no Your Vote Counts, Really! foundation in all 50 States? Are we that stupid? or are we (leaders) complicit in furthering the deceit of American Democracy?

????????????

NoFederales

[LynneSin]

38. How many times have I said "FUCK THE NATIONAL POLLS"

It's the electorial votes that matter - this should be our guideline

http://www.electoral-vote.com/

[nolabels]

62. We need to get some more MO..

If they got Florida and Pennsylvania to change the color of stripe then things would be dicey

The reason you have to get momentum going your way is so that won't happen. We may have the numbers and willingness but never underestimate on the how and why of them using every dirty trick in the book. It is a GOP trademark

Ten or fifteen million voter advantage is nice but a big shot of karma can sometimes be a tasty icing on the cake

[LynneSin]

69. I've already put Florida in the Red slot, it's been there the last 2 elections

However, Pennsylvania will go Blue. I just know that state and how it works. And the Democrats along with the great unions like SEIU make it a point to blanket the city with volunteers. If you get a good voter turnout in Philly it's impossible for the state to go red.

[drm604]

39. Possible preperation for another steal.

If they can't make it close enough to plausibly steal, then they have to make it appear close enough for a steal to be plausible.

What can we do right now to make another theft obvious? Any ideas?

[Dukkha]

43. has anyone here ever actually been polled?

not once in my life or anyone i know, which is why I consider all polls...

[stubtoe]

52. Me neither! Nor anyone I know. If they did they'd find a huge plurality for Obama.

Add in the fact that there has been a surge in the number of registered Democrats this year, this "close horse race" spouted by the polls is indeed BS.

[csziggy]

57. I was polled three times in July about judicial races in Florida

Every time they asked what party I was registered with (which they would have had since they were working from voter registration lists) and who I voted for in the 2004 presidential race.

I was also polled by (I think Rasmussen - I was tired and drugged that day so I was very fuzzy) about the primary races last spring. I do not remember the details of the questions for that one.

For years I have been on product survey and polling lists. In the mid-90s I was in the Net Nielsen Internet Rating for nearly a year. During that time their data showed that women in my age group increased internet usage by 300%. I was recovering from an injury and spending many hours a day at the computer since I could do little else - but it sure changed the perception of women's internet use and increased the number of internet sites aimed at my demographic. :rofl:

[trudyco]

79. 3 times this go round - I'm sahm -nt

[treestar]

91. No, and I don't know anyone who has

One DUer recently posted an OP saying DUer was polled.

When they do only a thousand people, I suppose it is scientific, but it assumes an awful lot - one wonders how accurate they can really be and would not be surprised to show a lot of shifts, because this 1000 people, though in the right demographics, are individuals and won't always follow their demographic's generalized positions.

[leftofthedial]

44. Gallup is a blatant repuke propaganda tool.

They don't even pretend to do real polling anymore.

Most of the others are designed to serve the marketing needs of major media outlets, those needs currently being a close "horse-race" election.

Polls are useless for finding out what the population thinks. They are dangerous in that they almost always function as repuke advertising.

[greyghost]

47. Gallup admitted that they haven't been including voters under 29!

[faulknercindy]

49. They keep pushing the polls

I keep pushing back with electoral college delegate counts. The only thing that matters.

[RepublicanElephant]

50. keith olbermann seems a little frustrated with chuck todd and his nbc/wall street murdoch polls...

he knows they're crap, but he can't right out say it and question his employer.

keith got into it with joe scarfboro on live tv over these twisted poll numbers.

i wish keith could bring in a democratic pollster on a regular basis.

[NorthCarolina]

56. I've never believed any of the polls to date because after 8 years of Bush

there is NO WAY McCain can be polling even close to Obama in the REAL world.

[wowimthere]

61. K&R Thank YOU! I wrote a post highlighting that these polls are to create perception

I don't buy this fabricated scenario about the polls having McINSANE and Pals rolling up in the polls. Plouffe is correct. CNN and MSNBC and ABC Wallstreet Journal and all the rest are full of Bullshit! And to top it off, Corporation are trying to steal this election by creating perception in the minds of the voters.

The media doesn't want to tell you that Obama could probably win by a landslide if they weren't trying to swing the election to the status quo. The media do not want to give up their power or influence on the electorate.

[stuartallenmills]

64. They did not tinker with results

Check out Nate Silver's write up at www.fivethirtyeight.com

[Nothing Without Hope]

65. They are paving the way to another election theft. Check out this thread on Gallup

to see that this is NOT nonpartisan, but highly motivated collusion:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x3951043
thread title: Gallup and Other Neocon Propaganda Firms Calling Themselves Pollsters

[tom_paine]

71. Same as it's been since at least 2002, maybe longer.

The Bushies figured that Evil Tyrants trick, too, like so many other of their "Friendly Fascism" innovations. Poison the datastream with so much Squid Ink that no one knows what's real and what is not. Literally eradicate the concepts of facts and untruths, turning every "fact" into a he-said/she-said-it's-just-an-opinion.

Bushies literally create False Realities that are so thorough that it is almost impossible, withotu "extra" effort beside plopping down in front of the TV for the 6 oclock news as our parents did and be reasonably secure that, though facts might be left out, those facts that they got were mostly or wholly true, and reasonably relevant.

Polls are just an extension of the entire multi-faceted Bushiganda program which encomapsses at least a half-dozen front from which their Gestalt-Based Propaganda is woven.

The Bushies, in their spoook's parlance, "lost control of the situation" in November 2000 by failing to steal enough votes beforehand, and thus had to scramble and almost failed in their crime.

Rest assured, they won't make THAT mistake again. Although perhaps they did in 2006, it turned out not to have mattered and that the ONLY "real" political position left in Amerika was that of Emperor.

So even briefly allowing the Amerikan Subject Populace to "blow off some steam" by putting the Democrats in "power" turned out to be a wonderfully lucky stroke for the Bushies.

The 2006 Democratic Victory give the Bushies more Plausible Deniability that causes most to immediately reject ALL possibility of ongoing Bushie Vote Stealing and Suppression Operations. I have seen it multiple times personally in late 2006 and early 2007, and I suspect it has been multiplied by millions of people, that feeling.

Lucky? I cannot help but wonder. By letting the Democrats win (if that is indeed what hapened) in 2006, KNOWING that the Bushies would suffer no visible setbacks and still ne denied NOTHING they wanted, it gave them an extra 10 years to catch on that elections in this ocuntry are badly rigged, but in a targeted fashion, not posisble before the age of computers and TV, which makes the theft "footprint" so relatively small as to provide plausible deniabiltiy and make individual instances more difficult to catch.

Not saying I am sure that's what happened, but once again, things worked out in the BEST POSSIBLE WAY for the Bushies. They Democrats got to win, got some power, and bigger offices but more importantly growing mainstream suspicion about massive Bushie Vote Stealing and Suppression Operations was knocked back for a decade at least.

And if the Bushies didn't know for sure that the Democratic Congressional Majority wuld pose ZERO THREAT to any of their plans; their important ones, anyway. Let the peasants have a minimum wage incerase of a buck...even AFTER the rise it's STILL so low as to be meaningless, eh?

Anyway, I am falling down the rabbit hole of the Big Picture.

All I meant to say is that I wholeheartedly agree and yes, it's a setup. But I find that scary even though I know it's a fraud, because the fraud almost certainly means the Stolen Election must follow.

I had vainly hoped that the Bushies might actually let the voter decide this time. :rofl:

Yes, I know. I'm an idiot.

[GreenTea]

72. As I see it....

The republicans know all they have to do is keep it close with their continued lies and mudslinging and they can easily steal the presidency again...If republicans are 3 or 4 points down (the margin of error) on election night, it's theirs and it will be hacked again early in the morning...The only way Obama could offset the theft, I believe, is if Obama has a true 6 point or more lead going into election day....the way the republicans lies & smears are planned that looks to be impossible.

(Once announced that McCain is the winner - NOTHING can be done)....It will take months if ever to prove manipulation, by then, it'll be too late, understanding that the republicans know all this very well....The republicans & their media will be fighting back at every turn.....The republicans have done it before what's to stop them from doing it again?

Republicans know they can't win without stealing it - so....they steal it....And why not? (Thanks to the republican written 2002 HAVA) Nothing ever happens to them when they do steal an election....and they've only gotten better at stealing elections. If Obama is indeed the winner the exit polls, which are never wrong (though the repugs want us to believe otherwise) will prove it and it still unfortunately & sadly will do no good.

[HowHasItComeToThis]

80. MILITARY INDUSTRIAL COMPLEX WON'T LET GO WITHOUT BLOOD

[KelleyKramer]

68. They GAVE the GOP a 10 point advantage to cheat the poll results...

Face it people, the media are right wing hacks working to prop up the Republicans...

"Despite a raft of advantages in the electorate for Democrats, in September's first Gallup tracking poll, an equal number of Republicans and Democrats were surveyed (including "leaners") from Sept. 3-5, compared to a 10-point Democratic identification advantage two weeks ago."

Thats just Gallup, and it looks like all the major pollsters are cheating and lying to make it look like McCain is doing better than he really is.

How much more does it take for people to see that these huge corporate media outlets are nothing but rightwing hacks?

[GreenTea]

70. You're absolutely correct....Most people are so fucking stupid, they will believe

whatever the polls report to them each day as fact, the polls are manipulated like EVERYTHING ELSE IS IN LIFE!!!

It's truly and sincerely unbelievable how gullible and stupid most people are...they will believe anything they are told by the media & pollsters never questioning the motivation behind EVERYTHING!

It becomes tiresome to watch these sheep graze around day after day without a clue.

[tom_paine]

74. Well, to be fair, we are all idiots.

OUR idiocies simply lie in other areas than political astutueness or sociological analysis, or to paraphrase Sebastian Haffner in "Defying Hitler" our "nose for whether a poltiical setup is moral or not".

Whatever it is,it is simply a talent, an expertise, an area of study. One of many.

Is a significant area of study? Hell, yes. Is it the only significant area of study and human endeavor? Nope.

Just my two cents and something to think about. By and large, I agree with you. I am just warning you what I try to warn myself, that just because we have a talent in this area which the time and situation has made VERY important, that we are therefore "smart" and those who do not have this talent "idiots".

But wouldn't that be like them calling us idiots for not being as strong in some area of human interaction/mind, for example keeping cool in a panic situation or something like that.

We are all human beings. Strong in some areas, weak in others. Smart in some things, dumb as a bag of rocks in others.

Don't get me wrong, I am not saying "I'm Ok. You're OK." or anything remotely like that. Bushies and their followers are NOT OK, they are part of the greatest national robbery in American History, as well as a part of the literal dismantling of the Old American Republic, to say the least.

I am just warning against hubris as I warn myself. Living in this, our area of expertise, so to say, can certainly swell us with hubris and make us think it is like that for everything.

But it isn't, and speaking for myself I'm guessing there are more than a few areas of human endeavor/enterprise/interaction where I am an idiot.

But largely I am agreeing with you. I suppose i am fufilling the function of the slave who rode behind Caesar during triumphs, saying, "Remember Caesar, though art mortal."

Being the One-Eyed man in the Kingdom of the Blind is certainly a powerful feeling, be those feelings contempt, anger, smugness, happiness or whatever.

I just wanted to share that with you, though I pretty much agree with everything you said. But that just because someone doesn't have a talent for "spotting Hitler while he's still on the rise", does not mean that person is automatically an idiot.

[AlbertCat]

73. 97.5% of all statistics are made up!

I made that up, y'know....

[kayell]

77. And every time we buy the lies

we discourage swing, independent and "weak democratic" voters. Americans are known for wanting to support a winner, for wanting to support strong, willing fighters. We've go that in Obama/Biden. Don't overturn their message.

[scytherius]

78. What I like about it

What I like about it is that it won't push public opinion because the electorate is highly polarized. What it WILL do is keep liberals/Dems from not voting. They were going to turn out in droves before but even more so now, especially young voters.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

81. I know that's true

After the 2000 election, I was briefly a subject for Zogby's polls. After we answered the questions, we could click on a link to see the results so far. The sampling always came out with more Republicans than Democrats. Always, usually 55-60% self-identified Republicans. It's not surprising that Zogby was always giving the Bushboy high approval ratings in those days.

[JackRiddler]

83. kick

[Doug.Goodall]

87. The polls are a scam folks, they should be used for entertainment purposes only

The Main Steam Media is manipulating the polls to increase its viewership.

If they told the truth that Obama is ahead by at least 10% (and always has been), the Republicans would turn off their televisions and not watch the advertisements.

To the MSM, the number of viewers is dollars in their pockets. A close election means higher viewership and more $$$