Independent UK: Here's proof of how much the US differs from us

[marmar]

Richard Ingrams' Week: Here's proof of how much the US differs from us

Saturday, 13 September 2008


Tania Head, the American who fooled everyone into believing that she was one of the few survivors of 9/11, explained that "something gave me the strength to get out. I believe that it was my fiancée on his way to heaven" (the fiancée, a figment of her imagination, had, according to her fictitious account, already perished in the blaze).

I hope that I am right in thinking that if someone had said that in this country, a large number of us would have been overcome with indignation, if not nausea.

If so, the story may be helpful in reinforcing the important message that Americans are not like us and that it is a very great mistake to think that we are indissolubly bound together by shared customs and beliefs. Take the new flavour of the month in the United States – Republican vice-presidential candidate Sarah Palin. She has told the Republican convention that American troops in Iraq are "doing God's purpose". God's purpose is unspecified by her, but it is legitimate to ask if it includes torturing large numbers of innocent civilians and killing a great deal more of them.

The thought that someone who talks like Palin could not only be elected, but quite possibly become President, is alarming. But there is absolutely nothing any of us can do about it.

All it should do is to emphasise again that Americans are a peculiar lot, and that G K Chesterton was right when he said that "nowhere in the world does an Englishman feel so much a stranger as in America".


http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/columnists/richard-ingrams/richard-ingrams-week-heres-proof-of-how-much-the-us-differs-from-us-928811.html

[Olney Blue]

1. Guess what, Brits. Plenty of us feel the same fucking way over here.

[melody]

2. Unfortunately, some Europeans are encouraging this view

All Americans are alike = all Americans are stupid. It helps divide the UK from the US and thus strengthens the EU.
George Bush is still doing his job.

[Fumesucker]

5. From up here in the cheap seats...

I can't say I blame Europeans for thinking Americans are stupid.

Bushie got more votes for his second term than his first, only a population largely made up of cretins could do something so indescribably ignorant.

Our politicians routinely pander to the most whacked out fundamentalists with language and imagery that better belongs in the 12th century than the 21st.

[melody]

7. That is a very ignorant statement in and of itself

I'm afraid you've just parked yourself in the corner at which you're sneering.

Some Europeans have ALWAYS looked down on Americans. Now these elements are manipulating this perspective to destroy us (with help from BushCo) and prop up the EU.

Anyone who lumps ALL Americans together is making a very simple-minded analysis based on no data. It's an emotional response and as anti-intellectual as any Bush backer's vote.

[Fumesucker]

12. Unlike most Americans I have actually visited Europe..

And I have no problem interacting with Europeans, they are more than happy to converse with an American that isn't a right wing idiot.

But then I don't go over there with a chip on my shoulder.

[melody]

14. I have been all over Europe and have interacted continually with the people

I have no problems interacting with Europeans at all. The problem is so many EU citizens seem to wish to believe we are ALL right wing idiots. To believe all the people of one nationality are bad/stupid/evil, etc, is bigotry. Nothing less or more.

[Fumesucker]

16. To paraphrase Forrest Gump

Evil is as evil does.

Our government does great evil in our name and very few Americans seem to care.

Would you like Freedom Fries with that?

[melody]

19. Europe has benefited from our doing great evil and now stands back and points fingers

The WEST has done this to the world. The problem is human, not racial or national.

All bigots think they have sound reasons for their biases.

[Fumesucker]

24. You want Freedom Fries with that?

You can talk about European bigotry, but they can't hold a candle to the bigotry here in the US.

Only in America would the legislature turn french fries (so named because they were invented by someone named French) into Freedom Fries.

Did you know that John Kerry looks French?

[melody]

26. I took on the freedom fries idiots, too

So you can do away with that hope for comparison. I defended French people all over the place on this very board.

Your very comment (European bigotry, et al) is itself bigotry.

[OnyxCollie]

31. Read Sinclair Lewis' "It Can't Happen Here", copyright 1935.

Sauerkraut becomes "Liberty Cabbage".

Fascists, and unoriginal ones, at that.

[tabasco]

54. LOL.

Sounds like you went to a different Europe than I did.

[melody]

56. Apparently

Because of my field, cultural patterns (thus politics) comes up a lot. You didn't find anyone that disliked Americans? I just had an English woman say to a friend of mine -- not long ago -- that "most of her friends thought Americans were all in lockstep with Bush". She's hardly an unusual case.

[stillcool]

21. It is who we are..

hell we condemn each other, and treat each other with hatred and disdain. I can't imagine how anyone outside of the United States could view our society as sane. If what goes around comes around, I hope people will understand how deserving we are.

[melody]

25. So you want millions of innocent people to be punished because of the minority?

The people causing this ARE the minority. Shall Mexico be punished, too? Canada? They're both North American.
Where does the hatred end?

[Fumesucker]

32. Perhaps the vociferously Christian USA

Should heed the words of their eponymous Savior..

Matthew 5:39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.

Hmmm.. That doesn't sound very American to me..

[melody]

35. Are you reading my posts or just copying and pasting random comments?

I agree absolutely about the far-right Christian and all other idiots. But what about the equal number of us who ARE informed and aware? We all are fallen with the same ax? Shouldn't a person be judged for the content of their character and not what country they come from?

[Fumesucker]

39. Just random comments...

I'm an American, I'm not smart enough to respond in a rational manner.

The point is, I don't blame Europeans for thinking Americans are idiots, the proof is in the pudding and our pudding is stupid to the core.

So stupid we can't even understand our own holy book.

[melody]

41. I expect truly intelligent people to think through their biases -- all of them

But your living in Mississippi, I have sympathy for your plight. My family escaped the south during the Depression.

[Fumesucker]

44. Absolutely nobody thinks through all their biases...

Of that I'm quite certain, it's simply not possible.

My parents emigrated to the US shortly after WWII and were utterly shocked by what they found. Nothing in any of the studying they did before coming here prepared them for the reality of racism in the US at the time, it's one of those things that simply was not written about enough to catch from five thousand miles away.

So I grew up in the South but not of the South, if you catch my drift.

[melody]

47. I try to ... all we can do is t ry.

Just because we can't achieve perfection doesn't mean we shouldn't try to do the best we can. Does the fact they couldn't
do it all absolve the racists in Mississippi?

My family has been here for 350 years. I am descended from generations of liberal Democrats -- many from Arkansas. Even multi-generation Americans can be good ones.

[stillcool]

46. Millions of innocent people...

are being punished all over the world. Where does the hatred end? They say everything starts at home, so I guess the hatred ends here where it starts. I read an article earlier about thousands of Iraqi refugees coming here. I'm sure they will get a nice American welcome.

[melody]

49. How does that even apply to my remark? n/t

[stillcool]

52. Maybe I mis-understood?

So you want millions of innocent people to be punished because of the minority?

The people causing this ARE the minority. Shall Mexico be punished, too? Canada? They're both North American.
Where does the hatred end?

Millions of innocent people all over the world have been punished severely because of the United States. I don't see what Mexico or Canada has to do with it. Those are our bombs. As far as us being punished for what our government does, I don't want, nor do I have a choice in that. I think it's a matter of cause and effect.

[melody]

53. I am saying why punish innocent ANYONE because of the actions of others?

These are all arbitrary lines.

[ColbertWatcher]

22. "some Europeans are encouraging this view"

And which Americans are discouraging this view?

Not all Brits read DU, but they do see Condoleezza Rice and John Bolton and Dumbya.

And Abu Ghraib and the slaughter in Iraq and a genuine American hero, who himself has been tortured, publicly extol the virtues of torture.

They also see more Americans insuring they remain as the representatives of America and American values.

I don't think anyone really believes we're all like this, but they probably can't understand--from their point of view and the information they're getting from their media--how those people could be reelected.

[melody]

29. As I've said elsewhere, Europe benefited from much of our bad deeds

Not in public of course. The rest of the world suffered, however.

People will see the patterns they wish to see. If they hold bigoted ideas about black people, they will only see bad things. The same thing applies to all nationalities, including Americans.

[ColbertWatcher]

34. Exactly. One guy's article doesn't represent a whole continent. n/t

[melody]

37. Did you once see me slam all Europeans?

I was talking about those instances of prejudice where it exists -- which everyone seemed to admit to because they were defending their biases.

[ColbertWatcher]

45. Did I say you did? n/t

[melody]

48. Then why make your contention?

Whichever, CW, I never cross swords with you. Let's just forget this thread - have your last word.

[ColbertWatcher]

50. Okay. I said that just as Americans cannot be considered uniformly ignorant ...

... neither should Europeans be painted with the same broad brush.

[melody]

51. I didn't paint them that way -- I specifically said it was "some Europeans"

To say it was all would be idiotic ... as dumb as saying all Americans are stupid.

[ColbertWatcher]

55. I didn't say YOU did. n/t

[Flying Dream Blues]

3. It's scary when the Brits are turning on you. But can you blame them? It's insane that

this Palin person has any shot at the second highest office in the land.

[melody]

4. This is an element of the UK that has ALWAYS harbored this notion

It's popular in much of Europe, too.

Anyone who hated us initially will still hate us. There's little we can do.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

6. And it's not an inaccurate assessment

I got into some online arguments with Republibots on our newspaper's website, and I mentioned something about wanting a president who wouldn't look like an idiot in the presence of world leaders. The Republicanites responded that they wanted someone "ordinary" as president.

I don't see that happening in Europe or East Asia. Europeans like their leaders to be intelligent and well-spoken.

Another thing I noticed when I was in the UK was that although there is definitely an over-the-top tabloid press, the mainstream press is much more intelligent and detailed than ours.

[melody]

9. Some Europeans have voted in MANY idiots as leaders

We have a lot of ignorant Americans because of our large amount of land and population. We have one central government to govern a vast area. They aren't stupid -- they are ignorant. And it isn't the majority. Bush was NOT voted in either time -- surely you know that. The only reason papers like the Independent ignore this fact is that it helps demonize Americans.

Those Europeans who look down on us want to do so without any reason. It's just prejudice.

[Fumesucker]

13. Your point that bushie wasn't voted in either time..

Is a point *against* Americans, not for them.

We allowed it to happen, in Europe (particularly France) there would have been tens of millions of people in the streets raising hell, here in the land of the free we just rolled over for the bushistas.

[melody]

15. And if we had taken to the streets

... the press so inclined would call us "ignorant primitives". We are damned either way. The hatred of us has existed
before the perception.

[Fumesucker]

20. You have now changed targets to "the press"..

I've been to Europe twice since 2001 and have yet to find this hatred you speak of when I'm dealing with people on a one to one basis.

In fact when people find out I don't like bushie I get sympathy, not hatred.

[melody]

23. My only target is bigotry, not people

I'm speaking only of those elements of the press that reflect that perspective. We were discussing the press
initially anyway.

Oh, yes, individuals get sympathy but "all those Americans" are evil. Reminds me of an old southern man who was
going on about "Jews" when his daughter pointed out her husband was Jewish. Old southern man turned to his son-in-law and
said "oh, he's a good Jew!" Same thing here.

[Fumesucker]

8. I have considerable family in the UK...

And every time I go over for a visit I get (cautiously) questioned about my politics.

My brother's wife is a fundie, although not one of the worst ones, and she stormed out of our great aunt's home when she found out our eighty six year old aunt was an atheist. A horribly embarrassing incident for my brother but one which thoroughly reinforced any perceptions our family (and anyone they might share the story with) in the UK might have about Christian whack jobs in the USA.

Our UK family now routinely refers to my brother's wife as "Miss Lynne". :)

[melody]

10. I'm an agnostic (may as well be an atheist)

I interact with lots of religious people. One of them is from Europe -- she's the biggest fundie I know.

[Fumesucker]

11. Of course Europe has fundies...

But the politicians don't pander to them the same way there as they do here.

And the average Briton thinks fundies are absobloodylootely barmy.

Unlike in the US where we elect them POTUS.

[melody]

17. Listen, if you wish to hate your own people, do so

I insist on people being treated as individuals and not without bias toward their race, ethnicity, national origin, sex or sexual preference. And that means EVERYONE -- even Americans.

[Fumesucker]

27. I hate stupidity...

And American politicians specialize in pandering to the stupid.

Obama is an elitist, said by the guy who doesn't even know how many houses he owns.

[melody]

30. 100,000 people turned out in Oregon to see Obama

You're going to shut your eyes to them and only focus on the 100,000 snake-handlers in the deep rural south? Why?

[Fumesucker]

36. Could it be that I live down here in the deep South

With the 100,000 snake handlers?

Mississippi is 47% evangelical Christian and only 6% non aligned.

That's an awful lot of stupid to overlook.

[melody]

38. Then get the hell out of there! My grandparents left the south to escape it.

No wonder you have a different take on things!

I live in California. I'm more accustomed to sane Americans.

[Fumesucker]

42. Don't tell me what to do...

It's my life and I have my reasons for doing what I do.

[melody]

43. That was intended jocularly, not as a directive

In other words, "good grief, you're in danger, get out of there!" I do admire your tenacity. I couldn't live there.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

18. That's true--the minority who are religious are mostly mainstream types

The whackjobs in Britain are mostly racist (but secular) whackjobs.

[Fumesucker]

28. Yep, the UK definitely has a problem with racism...

Nobody's perfect, that's for sure.

[digidigido]

33. Are you a troll?

Seriously? Is this more of they hate us for our freedoms stuff? How about they disrespect us for our actions?

[melody]

40. And you with 163 posts and no member star are asking ME this?

I love the good in my country. I love my state. That does not make me a troll. I've been on this board since the
beginning.

[SCBeeland]

57. Commenting on the number of posts a person has implies an elitist attitude in most people.

Just saying.

[melody]

58. Not when you've just been called a troll for simply stating my opinion

I've been here a long time, I'm a paying member, it's not elitism, it's street cred.

[FatDave]

59. You know what would do more good than arguing amongst yourselves?

If you posted a "we're not all fucking idiots" comment at the site linked.