Many people will die tonight

[Tab]

Maybe they don't want to leave, maybe they simply can't, maybe because they waited until it was too late.

Many people will lose their homes and everything dear tonight, even if they live.

Many families will lose relatives tonight.

Let our thoughts be with them all. I'm not sure we can pray our way out of this one - but we can think of how petty our personal problems may be in comparison. I lost my job the other day, but it's petty compared to what some people will go through tonight. Did you fight with your spouse / children / friend(s) today? It's minor compared to what will happen to many people tonight.

I wish them luck. They will need it.

[Tesla]

1. I have said a prayer a few times today for the people in the hurricanes way

God Bless them tonight

[KitchenWitch]

2. ...

:cry:

My spirit goes out to all the people in the areas affected by Ike, and to all the people affected by the Chatsworth CA train wreck.

:cry:

[Name removed]

3. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[LeftyMom]

66. nevermind,

mods beat me to it.

[JVS]

67. That subthread was HUGH!

[uppityperson]

69. Huh, where did ignored aka "I hope you get to experience a parent's death" go?

[LeftyMom]

70. No pizza yet.

He's got a lot of posts, so they probably have to run it by an admin. But I can't imagine it's not being considered.

[uppityperson]

73. as another poster put it elsewhere...

"I maintain that the people who stayed to face Ike are stupid
But they don't deserve to die. That's just an awful thing to say."


I hope they are considering it. That was nasty.

[LeftyMom]

78. That poster has a long history of being nasty just to stir the shit.

He's either looking to pick fights for some sick reason or has a serious mental health problem, because healthy, well-adjusted people just don't behave that way toward others.

[uppityperson]

81. Thanks for the history.

only one on my ignore list.

[Bluebear]

94. A to the m to the e to the n,

[Hekate]

95. I've never been so glad to see a subthread deleted. The person who started it...

... and continued it, was nasty.

Hekate

[patriotvoice]

100. It should not have been deleted; there were many thoughtful responses.

A better feature would be to lock a sub-thread.

[OmahaBlueDog]

4. I'm just hoping I wake up and TWC says "oops, we were wrong about the storm surge"

I fear I won't be that lucky.

[Barack_America]

5. My stomach's in knots, fearing the inevitable.

This is going to be terrible.

[jimshoes]

6. For those who stayed behind

I hope they have the sense to find a sturdy multi story place to ride the storm out. And wishing them luck.

[im1013]

7. To those who say "fuck them"

What about the children of the people who CHOSE to stay??
Did they have a choice??? Are you saying "fuck them" too??

Pathetic!


:freak:

[budkin]

8. It's true and it really sucks... WHY DID THEY STAY?

[KitchenWitch]

9. I am guessing there are as many answers to that as there are people that stayed.

[Midlodemocrat]

10. Maybe they had animals they couldn't leave? Or an elderly

relative they couldn't leave?

We don't know why, but it sure won't kill us to have some compassion for them. 'Culling the gene pool' is the last fucking thing I expected to read here.

[KitchenWitch]

11. ...

:applause:


I am just ill about this.

[TornadoTN]

13. You and me both

I've never seen anything like this from a member of the community. We see this shit from Freepers and Trolls and we know their type - but the responses around here tonight have been mind-boggling and sickening.

No human being deserves to suffer - regardless of their own stupidity. I certainly hope this "fuck 'em" attitude is coming from a small representation of our usually progressive and caring community.

[KitchenWitch]

15. ...

That "fuck 'em" attitude is a pretty common occurrence with that particular member.

[Midlodemocrat]

16. I highly doubt that stupidity is the reason they stayed.

Animals comes to mind first, and then perhaps relatives that can't be moved. When my dad was alive, if we had had to evacuate, it would have been an arduous procedure. I would have had to get an air ambulance and that would have cost thousands.

Compassion doesn't cost us a penny. I don't understand why it isn't spread around more freely.

[TornadoTN]

20. That's exactly right

Some people stayed behind because of their own stupidity - we saw it on the TV today with the people out on the shores with their kids. Others just didn't want to leave because they thought this would be another "overblown" incident.

But you are right - some people have more sentimental and real reasons to stay behind.

Regardless, they all deserve our compassion and best wishes for a safe passage through this disaster.

[Anexio]

38. I dont think you are thinking this through...

Tell me how it's okay for 20 collage age kids to drink the hurricane out at a bar on the edge of Galveston Island, please.

Do the rescue people deserve to die trying to save their sorry asses. Those kids are making a choice to stay there.

So while I think the poster of #3 used a very poor choice of words, I agree with his/her general direction.

[TornadoTN]

43. There are no rescues right now - won't be for several hours

But beside that point, to be so cavalier with death towards anyone is a dangerous position to take. Yes, they are stupid for staying. No, rescuers shouldn't risk themselves right now to save them. But stupidity is no valid reason to accept death - no one deserves to suffer.

[Two Americas]

92. that isn't the point

It isn't about the "collage" kids - people advocating letting stupid people die really need to be careful with their spelling and grammar, I think - it is about us.

Once we start deciding who is and who is not worth rescuing, we - all of us - are on the road to Hell. Never mind the college kids and your opinion of them.

Rescue workers don't act on the principle of only saving worthy people, or smart people, or deserving people.

If you were stranded in a fire and text messaged the rescuers, you would not want them looking for you near the collage hanging in the art museum when you were actually near the college. Would you have failed the stupidity test and so therefore deserved to die? Why should they risk their lives on goose chases to find you when you can't communicate accurately to them where you are?

[DeltaLitProf]

99. First, you need to remove Al Sharpton's picture from your vile amoral post

. . . and next you need a pretty long course in empathy. You never developed naturally as most of us did.

Third: you're lucky I'm not the moderator. You'd be gone.

[Anexio]

102. Yikes!

I guess I didn't realize that I answered to you.

I know better now, you're the playground monitor, I recognize your authority.

Could you send me a picture of yourself that I could use for my personal avatar? If Rev. Al, who I know personally, doesn't work for you then maybe I could use your image?

[Bluebear]

104. Bravo.

[flvegan]

22. If this had come through my area

I might well be dead tomorrow for a similar reason. Guess the herd would be culled of the likes of me. Good to know. World might be better off, eh?

[roguevalley]

34. I wouldn't make it. there is one bloody road off this peninsula that

i live on and there would be road closures on it and breakage of the highway if the "big one" ever hit here. Again. We had a 10 earthquake up here in 1964, the largest ever recorded on earth. I would and will be screwed if it happens again. I'm letting him know in advance so he can celebrate my death. Nothing like being friendly.

[KitchenWitch]

36. Well you would deserve it because you are too stupid to leave your animals behind

:sarcasm:

Unfuckingbefuckinglievable.

[Midlodemocrat]

37. Seriously. What a fuckwit.

I even told him he could bring them here, but NOOOOOO! He wouldn't leave.

:sarcasm:

Of course, you and I both know that flvegan is so beloved people, especially DUers, would be helping him evacuate. Some others in this thread, not seeing it.

[KitchenWitch]

40. Oh hell to the yeah!

There are people here that I have not met in real life that I would give the shirt off my back to, if they needed it.

[Bluebear]

47. We'll all hoot and snicker at you and give you a "Darwin Award", OK?

Adios, sucker!

:sarcasm:

[flvegan]

51. Be thankful that the mean IQ of the US would go up.

Or so I read here.

:eyes:

[uppityperson]

14. saw a picture of a bedridden couple being evacuated through flood

Don't know why they chose to stay and be evacuated, but I am not going to pass judgment on them either.

[Kitty Herder]

72. I didn't see the picture, don't know the whole story, but it seems to me that if they were bedridden

, it wasn't exactly their choice. The question is who left them there?

[uppityperson]

79. That is a good question. Here is another. Why are there still bodies unclaimed, unknown

after Katrina? They just buried a bunch of them that still are unknown. People scattered then, and some just fell through the cracks? Everyone thought someone else had checked on them and no one did? A caretaker messed up? Family did? Lots of possibilities and I don't know. How could there still be people left unknown after 3 yrs?

[kurth_]

17. Here is one answer - let's see what happens to this couple:

http://www.statesman.com/blogs/content/shared-gen/blogs/austin/weather/entries/2008/09/12/in_his_own_word.html

[roguevalley]

33. I do recall in Katrina that a whole nursing home full of old people

didn't leave because they weren't organized. They found them scrambled in their beds, old frail people trying not to drown. But don't let that slow ya down. I guess I have to defer to the greater knowledge of the Sage of Illinois.

[nadine_mn]

56. don't forget the scratch marks on the ceiling

as they desepartely fought for air

the people caring for elderly and disabled - what should they do "choose" to leave? And leave their patients or loved ones to die?

[tomreedtoon]

12. Nice that they evacuated WHITE people.

I can't help but think Katrina about this event. Gee, nice that the oil-wealthy white people were given ample opportunities to evacuate.

I will be paying attention to see if Latino communities, especially the less-than-middle-class ones, were given ample opportunities as well.

[last_texas_dem]

31. Galveston is not a particularly white or wealthy city

>>>>The racial makeup of the city was 58.66% White, 25.49% Black or African American, 0.42% Native American, 3.21% Asian, 0.07% Pacific Islander, 9.73% from other races, and 2.41% from two or more races. 25.77% of the population were Hispanic or Latino of any race.>>>>

>>>>>The median income for a household in the city was $28,895, and the median income for a family was $35,049. Males had a median income of $30,150 vs. $26,030 for females. The per capita income for the city was $18,275. About 17.8% of families and 22.3% of the population were below the poverty line, including 32.1% of those under age 18 and 14.2% of those age 65 or over.>>>>>

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galveston,_TX

[Bluebear]

42. Galveston median hosehold income $28,895, national $41,994. 18% hispanic, 15% black

etc.

[KitchenWitch]

49. Yeah, deep pockets, tons of help to get out, etc etc etc.

<$30,000 a year buys a whole lot of choice...

:sarcasm:

[dysfunctional press]

55. they evacuated EVERYBODY that wanted to be evacuated.

nt

[Two Americas]

68. you can't know that

You have no way to know that. It certainly was not the case with Katrina, although we had many people here at the time saying the same things you are.

[LSK]

76. and you dont know the opposite either n/t

[Two Americas]

84. I didn't claim to

I choose to err on the side of human life and compassion.

In any case, it is not relevant what the availability was or wasn't to get out. They are there. A life is important no matter what the evacuation opportunity was or wasn't - or rather I should say what the authorities claim was the case. Anything other than that position is unthinkable.

[LSK]

74. according to who?

[Two Americas]

88. whom

It would be "according to whom?"

Be careful, because there are people here calling for culling the herd, and for all we know grammar could become one of the criteria for the selection process.

[LSK]

91. thanks, I didnt realize that in my nearly 5 years here

Thanks for the warning.

[ladjf]

18. I just don't get it. Is it that much trouble to get a ride out of town?

What am I missing?

[Midlodemocrat]

19. Apparently, a great deal.

Ever been evacuated? Have pets? A disabled, elderly relative?

There are plenty of reasons people don't/can't leave.

[ladjf]

26. I certainly didn't mean to offend anyone.

But, I'm doubting that the majority of the hundreds of thousands who didn't evacuate had the pressing
problems that you listed.

My thought was that most people do have personal transportation or have access to transportation,even old and sick people. Logic would dictate that if the storm surge is going to be
nine or ten feet higher than the seawall, those in one or two story homes may well be drowned.
Their best hope is that the forecast will prove to be wrong.

[alarimer]

46. There is a system in place in which people can call for rides.

Here, when it looked like it was coming here, the evacuated all the nursing homes, hospitals, special needs facilities; they were even ready to evacuate the jails if need be. I saw, on my way to Beeville on Wednesday, at least 20 buses on their way to Corpus to evacuate people. Turns out they were not needed. I am sure we will find out why such measures were not take up there or why they were not effective if they were.

I heard an interview with the mayor of Galveston and she was pretty clueless. "We didn't think it would be this bad" was the quote. So I suspect that a lot of people simply did not get the message and I think a lot of the blame for people staying behind is due to the powers that be, city, state or whatever, not taking it seriously enough. For a very long time it looked like it would hit in the middle of the coast and I suspect that they simply waited too long to get things going.

[LSK]

77. I heard they made special arraingements for them

:shrug:

[kurth_]

21. Me neither. There are hundreds of public facilities waiting to take care of them in other cities

[Midlodemocrat]

23. Um, animals? elderly relatives that can't be moved?

Jesus, people do I have to think of everything myself?

[KitchenWitch]

29. Why, yes, Midlo, yes you do!

:eyes:

[Midlodemocrat]

30. I don't get these responses.

Not at all.

[KitchenWitch]

32. Me neither

It makes me fear for the future.

[LSK]

82. 20,000 out of 60,000 people in Galvestan stayed

1/3 of the population has this problem??

[JeanGrey]

97. It is ridiculous.

[bluegreen aura]

105. Well, you have convinced me!

Everyone is helpless and if possibilities are mentioned, scoff at them and bring up the worst-case scenarios, which are not the majority of those who chose to stay, I am sure.

But I guess it's more fun to play victim, eh?

[Two Americas]

71. almost everything important

You are missing most of the reality of modern America - the harsh realities of poverty and old age, the class divisions, the racial tensions, the inadequacy of government response to emergencies, the consequences of right wong domination of our politics and government, deregulation and privatization, the lack of trustworthy news media that has any commitment to public welfare, the corruption and lying and lack of accountability rampant among our public officials, the callous and inhuman attitudes that have been become far to common.

You are missing all of those are factors, or at the very least have not formed a cohesive picture in your mind from them. If you don't "see" them consider yourself to be among the fortunate few.

[Beam Me Up]

24. Last I heard watching local news the storm may be breaking up some

Not to say it isn't dangerous and there won't be a lot of damage but as I understand it, it looks like it may not be the full-blown disaster many have predicted. I hope this is the case for everyone.

Anyone else hearing these reports?

[TornadoTN]

28. I've heard the opposite on the various feeds

I think what some have said is that it hasn't exactly hit the projected Cat 3 status, but the surge is above what has been expected to this point.

The main bands are coming ashore now, so the main hurricane strength winds are just hitting land. They are saying that the storm is now 55 miles off of the shore of Galveston - eyewall almost perfectly centered around the city of Galveston.

Also - there are massive - were talking a 150-200 mile wide bands of strong storms and more surge behind the eyewall coming into shore.

[goodgd_yall]

41. I just heard the winds may be less than they were fearing.

May only come on shore as a Category 1. Also that the stronger winds will be around 200 ft in altitude which is good except for high rises where the windows may blow out.

[TornadoTN]

48. I've heard some of the same - but they are warning that the surge may be extreme

If you look at the radar, the bulk of the storm is behind the eyewall - which doesn't look like the storm will completely pass until around dawn. There may be more water coming in than initially predicted.

[halobeam]

59. Yes, the surge comes after the center passes.

[halobeam]

58. winds are strong Cat 2, the surge is equiv. to a Cat 4 or 5

Reading Dr. Masters weatherunderground.com blog will explain this way better than I ever could.

My understanding is that it seems The Saffir-Simpson scale "alone" failed, imo. The I.K.E measure of a storm (not to be confused w/ Ike the storm) needs to be at LEAST...integrated in future forecasts, if not re-writing a new scale to measure the power of storms. I.K.E. takes into account the areal coverage of the winds, therefore providing a more accurate measure of the POWER of the storm's surge.


"SOME" people figured they could weather a "Cat 2" without fully understanding the severity/catastrophic consequences the surge would play in this storm.

Personally, I live on Long Island, and if I thought a Cat 2 would hit, and I heard storm surge would be deadly and I didn't have a full handle on what exactly that meant, I might have toughed it out too. Not to mention, if I heard my mayor say on Weds night, it's voluntary evacuation, then Thursday, "well it's too late to evac. everyone anyway" and then just TODAY, get a mandatory CYA evac. order...... I might not have had the means, to work it out and get out on time.

So much plays into what happened, but here's a little piece from Dr. Jeff Masters blog regarding I.K.E.

I highly recommend anyone who lives near water or storm prone areas to get familiar with this site, as the weather is not as it used to be, and we must be educated (CERTAINLY) not directing that at you... just adding what I can, to a rather rough night as we've had too many of these and unfortunately, more to come.


---snip---

The total energy of Ike
The amount of water Ike has put in motion is about 10% greater than what Katrina did, and thus we can expect Ike's storm surge damage will be similar to or greater than Katrina's. The way we can estimate this damage potential is to compute the total energy of Ike's surface winds (kinetic energy). To do this, we must look at how strong the winds are, and factor in the areal coverage of these winds. Thus, we compute the Integrated Kinetic Energy (IKE) by squaring the velocity of the wind and summing over all regions of the hurricane with tropical storm force winds or higher. This "Integrated Kinetic Energy" was recently proposed by Dr. Mark Powell of NOAA's Hurricane Research Division as a better measure of the destructive power of a hurricane's storm surge than the usual Category 1-5 Saffir-Simpson scale.

[Lars39]

25. You're heart's in the right place, TAb.

Sorry about your thread degenerating into a free-for-all. I hope you can find a job soon. :hug:

[roguevalley]

27. this is so very sad. there is nothing to do but pray for people and animals

tonight. god be with them

[FKA MNChimpH8R]

35. Insane to stay if there was a way or the means to leave

however unpleasant or inconvenient. Just the pix of Ike on of MSNBC are enough to scare the hair off a gorilla. I'd have grabbed my bass guitar and my cat and taken a freaking rickshaw in the other direction if that was all that was available. Ike is a MONSTER.

[Two Americas]

39. it is not always so simple and easy

There are many people who do not trust what the authorities say, and with good reason. We all saw after Katrina that not only were the authorities not helpful, they were hostile and dangerous. The "solutions" the authorities offered - or forced on people - were often nightmarish.

There are many people for whom this is not at all simple or easy. There are people who are alone, confused and frightened - or handicapped in some way. One example - immigrants are in a tough spot in these situations. Leaving could very likely lead to abuse, arrest and detention.

For people without money, credit cards, cars, where do you go, what do you do? There is a risk in staying, but hardship, suffering and danger are certain if you leave. Do you want to be herded onto some bus by the police, taken who knows where for who knows how long? Look at how refugees of Katrina were treated - like criminals.

Then, some choose to stay when they possibly could leave, but we need to walk a mile in their shoes before we judge them, as well. Some would rather take their chances with the storm even if it means dying - with dignity and independence to the end at least - or would rather struggle with the real dangers the storm presents than they would take the advice or "help" of government and the media - who already sold them down the river along time ago - and suffer almost certain humiliation and hardship, or dangers and abuse.

Some may be depressed and paralyzed, or even suicidal. Some may be on medication, or not on medication. Are they to be tossed on the scrap heap?

Even if people are staying because they are not very smart, that should not diminish our compassion for them, either. We didn't earn our smarts, did we? Is compassion only reserved for those who need it least - the fortunate, healthy and clever ones?

[FKA MNChimpH8R]

60. I am not discounting these factors

believe me. I would walk a mile through water a foot deep to save myself, my bass and my cat and I am on foodstamps and GA. My bass and my cat are not replaceable but other things are. I have been under psychiatric treatment for depression and on medication for a couple of years, but I would not sit in the path of a murderous hurricane if I had a way - any way - out. If I didn't that is a different question, and I would probably accept my fate while mourning the loss of my cat more than that of my own life, but the Texas coast was well organized to evac people. 24 or 48 hours ago it was possible to make arrangements for the fragile and the animals to GO. What I do not understand is these old coots who say fuck it, that they're gonna stick it out no matter what. This macho bullshit is suicide in the face of a storm the size and fury of Ike.

This isn't Katrina. Two days ago, the Weather Service was saying that to stay in exposed areas was to court certain death. That is more than enough warning. Texas has responded more responsibly than LA did, and there has been a lot more warning.

For God's sake, GO!

[Two Americas]

63. understood

What I am hearing you say is that you are frustrated and disturbed because you are concerned about these people and compassionate about their plight. Thanks for the clarification.

Don't overestimate the authorities on this, nor expect people to have much confidence in them, though, especially after Katrina.

Don't assume that everyone staying, or trapped, is being "macho" either. Probably very few are.

Speaking as an old coot, sometimes dodging the bullet can be as life threatening as taking it. I can understand a person living their life in theor old age and saying - I am done trying to live forever, "life" for me means staying right here and taking things as they come and when the end comes the end comes. What it would take to save my life, or protect it, or worry about it comes at too high a price now in too many ways, and I would rather live while I am living the way I am living and I am prepared to go when the time comes.

[FKA MNChimpH8R]

96. Thanks for getting the gist of my concern

And I am approaching coothood faster than I want to think about it.

I kept thinking about that stubborn old goat on Mt. St. Helens all those years ago who refused to go anywhere. And he got blown to kingdom come. There's no excuse for that with Ike. The forces of nature are not something to be trifled or gambled with.

[Two Americas]

109. "coothood" lol

There are always going to be a few who will be foolhardy in the face of impending catastrophe, and the mass media loves to give them massive airplay and imply some broader significance to what the odd person here or there says. We should be careful not to make generalizations based on a few people.

People have a right to trifle or gamble with anything they want to trifle and gamble with. I would say that the modern American economy and political system are highly dangerous and not to be trifled and gambled with, yet most people here would argue that we need to play the game and work within the system.

If I had a choice between being in the path of a hurricane, and being in the path of American capitalism, I would face the hurricane. Yet almost everyone here is staying in the system, playing the game, hoping to weather the storm, refusing to leave their faith in the system even in the face of great and obvious danger.

I would say that trusting the system, and doing what we are supposed to do or are told to do, is a far greater danger right now than bucking it would be. Some may not be properly trusting and obeying the authorities, but I worry far less about them than I do about those who are and who are stubbornly clinging to the notion that if we are all good little boys and girls - work within the system, accept reality, follow the rules, take baby steps - everything will be just fine.

There is a political and social storm brewing on the horizon that makes any hurricane look like a trifle, and it is a far greater threat to us than any hurricane. The people ignoring the evacuation orders are hanging on to their comforting illusions. That is exactly what all of us are doing in the face of a much greater storm.

My point - who are we to judge?

[Kitty Herder]

83. ...

:applause:

[bertman]

44. Just three short years ago we had a tragedy of epic proportions unfold on the Gulf Coast shores.

A National Disgrace. An almost unparalleled American example of callousness, carelessness, criminal failures of government at all levels, individual ineptitude and almost unforgivable bad judgment by our elected officials.

This horrifying scene unfolded on worldwide television as most of us watched in shock, horror and disbelief as Katrina proved once again that we are no match for the forces of nature.

My wife's family is from New Orleans. Four family members lived on the Gulf Coast when Katrina struck. All were flooded out and/or suffered storm damage and were forced to evacuate for weeks. Now two of those families have left the Gulf Coast for parts north, while two others remain in their Gulf Coast homes.

When the warnings started coming in for Gustav the Gulf Coast family members and the members of their communities began preparations for the evacuation. They evacuated and watched and waited. When the "all clear" was signalled, they returned to their homes to find them safe and sound. We all breathed a huge sigh of relief and thanked whatever deities and forces we revere.

I relate this because it is beyond my comprehension that ANYONE would have ignored the ominous, long-range forecasts and warnings that were dominating the TV and radio and internet since Ike spawned in the Atlantic. Especially anyone who LIVES ON THE GULF COAST.

We have been hearing about mandatory evacuation orders for coastal areas for the last two days AT LEAST. And I am in North Carolina. So what the hell are those people thinking who are still in Galveston and other coastal communities? It is my understanding that emergency evacuation transportation was made available to anyone who wanted it. Am I wrong about this?

I know that there are always some die-hards (no pun intended) who are "gonna ride it out." And there are always some of the ill or uninformed who are going to be tragically overlooked and left behind in a major evacuation like this, but I am talking about people who are aware and informed and supposedly of sound mind and body who elect to stay in harm's way AND WORST OF ALL KEEP FAMILY MEMBERS WITH THEM WHO HAVE NO SAY IN THE MATTER. Those folks who CHOOSE to stay are definitely judgmentally deficient and, in my opinion, do not deserve the benefit of the doubt nor do they deserve sympathy. But certainly their children or dependents are to be pitied and helped as much as possible.

IF this Hurricane Ike epic tale were not unfolding three years after Katrina. And IF Katrina had not been such a devastating and illustrative example of what a storm like her or Ike can do. And IF the Texas Gulf Coast had not been warned of the seriousness of the storm. Then I could have compassion for those who CHOSE to stay on the coast in the storm's path. But for those who have now CHOSEN TO STAY I can only shake my head and say "I wish you luck and hope for the best."

[Tindalos]

45. Wishing them all safe.

My heart goes out to them and their families.

[KansasVoter]

50. MANY people stay. If you are not close to water, no reason not too....

This board seems to think EVERYONE in Houston needs to leave. Millions of people.

Unless the storm surge is close to your house or a river is you are just going to experience wind and maybe some tornados.

People in houston are 30-60 miles from the coast.

Outside of the storm surge it is just like a thunderstorm anywhere else. Rain and high winds.

If you can get flooded then leave. If not boarding up your windows and ride it out is not a problem.

[MiniMe]

52. Not everybody in Houston. Galveston is a different story.

[tammywammy]

53. Exactly!

And other cities, Beaumont/Pt Arthur needed to evacuate and the vast majority did.

[LSK]

80. 20,000 out of 60,000 people in Galvestan stayed

I wish people would know whats going on before commenting.

[Two Americas]

87. and that proves what exactly?

We have two choices as to how to interpret that. Republicans hold the position that most of us - at least a third of us - are not worth much and are too stupid to worry about, and if we fall by the wayside or suffer and die we have no one to blame but ourselves. Democrats hold the position that when a third of the people are being left behind in one way or another, that is a strong indication that there is something very wrong with the direction the rest of us are going.

Have people lost trust in the authorities and the news media? That would be understandable.

Do people see rescue as worse than facing the storm? Do they see the "cures" as worse than the "disease?" That would not be so irrational, for anyone observing the behavior of government over the last few years.

Are people so battered by poverty, by lies, by the callousness of modern American society, by the daily struggle, by the collapse of a compassionate society that they lack the energy or inspiration to even save themselves? We should not be surprised if people ar some point start slipping into that sport of apathy and indifference, unless we are going to completely deny the reality of what is happening in this country.

Are people so confused and paralyzed and traumatized that they can't think clearly? Hell that is true of half of the people here at DU.

If a third of the people are outside of the system, there is something wrong with the system, not with the people.


The point is to save the people, not to give them a test to find out if they deserve to live or not.

Maybe people, on some level, no longer think life in America is so wonderful or worth living in.Can we blame them for that? We all feel that. We have threads all the time about moving out of the country. That is pretty desperate. What about people for whom that could never be an option?

I think many of us are in denial as to just how bad things have become in this country.

[LSK]

90. pointing out that nobody is talking about leaving Houston

We are talking about Galvestan.

But feel free to continue to attack me.

[bluegreen aura]

106. So what about what Ray Nagin said before Gustav?

I loved it! He said that people needed to get their butts outta there and if they didn't, they would be ON THEIR OWN. He was not speaking to the poor, traumatized, eldery, infirm...they had a system to take all those who wanted to leave out of town. But there are people who value their stuff more than their bodies! These are the same types who fight when getting carjacked or held up. Their first impulse is to protect their material objects over all else. Should the precious manpower go to them first or should it go to people who may have been mentally ill and not kept up with evacuation instructions?

[Two Americas]

107. and this thrills you why exactly?

Vicariously enjoying the thought of harm coming to others, whatever the justification, contributes to the descent into Hell the country is experiencing.

[countryjake]

89. Did you ever consider that living a lifetime in a house 18 ft off the ground...

propped up on stilts, due to the danger from hurricane storm surges, might give a person a reason to ride it out, when authorities, news media, and weather services threaten them with death?

That whole west end of the island, the part now purported to be underwater, consists of mostly high houses, stilt city, bird houses required to be 17 foot off sea level (since the Galveston sea wall doesn't protect them).

Are you sure that you know what you're talking about?

[bullwinkle428]

54. Reporting 4 feet of water in downtown Galveston right now -

I sincerely hope as few people as possible made the decision to stay...

[Barack_America]

86. Weather Channel reports 6 feet, just now. nt

[EFerrari]

57. K&R

:(

[Jack Rabbit]

61. ()

Pebblez.com

[susanna]

62. Tab, thank you.

This is an important post. I've been thinking the same all night, but could not have articulated it nearly as well as you. Thank you for the re-focus.

For those DUers still in the eye of the storm, my thoughts are with you.

[Liberal In Texas]

64. I fear your are right.

Too many people think this is a lark. They just don't know...

[countryjake]

65. Remember the Hurricane

[susanna]

75. That's haunting...

The memorial to the last thousands lost in a storm being inundated by the latest hurricane. There are no words, really. :-(

[Barack_America]

85. Local media reporting multiple 911 calls coming into Galveston emergency response...

Only to be told "there's nothing we can do for you now".

[JeanGrey]

98. And there isn't. They will do the best they can when they can.

They were told to leave. If they stay, they stay.

[Liberal In Texas]

93. Yeah they will and look at the current top of DU-GD:

Looks like I was right: CNN Ticker says Tina Fey to portray Palin on upcoming SNL n/t

Animal-eating depends on vegetation...

LIVE TV CNN: AWNING WATCH????

WTF... When did Faux News co-opt UPI? Check out this "article" on Gibson/Palin...

I'm starting to get a lot of phone calls for political donations and surveys.

Say something positive about John McCain/Sarah Palin Click here to hide this thread Mind_your_hea...

Please just click on this link to get the Palin wolf killing story on the front page of Youtube

Look at this guy! Yikes!

Nobody really cares. I guess we should give it a rest. I'm off to be to catch a few hours zzz's.

[malaise]

101. Lots of DUers care

but there are other things going on. We have had and continue to have dozens of Ike threads.
There was a major train crash in California with scores of people missing. I've only seen one thread. Louisiana is also under water with levees breached and CHicago is also under water.

It is unfair to accuse DUers of not caring about Texans - we've been posting about this hurricane for a week.

[Stuart G]

103. At this point, 12 hours after it came ashore...many people did not die..

Yes, they lost property, homes, etc. 12 hours...3 deaths..

Train wreck , 18 deaths. 100 injured. Which had more coverage? Why?

[malaise]

108. Did you see the CNN headline stating that

37,000 people need to be rescued.

By the way 24 people died in the train crash and 80 plus are critically injured.