Say Goodbye to HEALTH CARE!

[spooked]

Say Hello to HEALTH SAVINGS ACCOUNTS!





President Bush speaks during his roundtable discussion on Health Savings Accounts with participants at Presbyterian Health Conference Center, Friday, Sept. 12, 2008 in Oklahoma City, OK.


http://newsok.com/president-bush-hears-from-states-small-business-owners-on-health-savings-accounts/article/3297346/?tm=1221278554

"President Bush expressed concern that the U.S. health care system is "drifting toward nationalization” in opening remarks Friday at a forum on health savings accounts..."

"Employers benefit because they can offer health insurance plans with higher deductibles, reducing the overall cost of providing insurance for employees."

"Bush said health savings accounts are one way to address the health care "crisis” by allowing individuals to control their own health care dollars. The accounts also provide an "ingenious” way to encourage small businesses to provide health care coverage because they reduce overall health care costs for business owners."

"That's why I'm here, to talk about a health care vision I strongly believe in,” Bush said.

[spooked]

1. Can we get this man out of office soon enough?!

We will never, ever be able to calculate the damage done by this administration.

[BlueJazz]

2. Oh Boy,,If it involves George Bush, you can bet your life it's going to be a ....

...Dog & Pony show and the average Citizen is going to be Screwed... :( :(

[FreakinDJ]

21. Actually it is worse then Bush's policy

Source : The New England Journal of Medicine

McCain and Obama Plans for U.S. Health Care Reform

Its centerpiece is a change in the tax treatment of health insurance. Currently, workers do not pay taxes on health insurance premiums paid by their employers.

Nobody knows how effective repealing the tax exclusion would be in controlling costs, but if it turns out not to be a magic bullet, the plan lacks other mechanisms for reliably slowing spending. Prevention, better care for chronic conditions, and enhanced competition represent aspirations rather than concrete policies for controlling costs.

It would deregulate the insurance market (Geez - deregulation has worked out so well in the S&L, Banking and Mortgage markets)

The McCain plan could consequently trigger a move from comprehensive insurance toward thinner coverage policies that shift costs onto sicker patients. Moreover, some employers, particularly smaller businesses, might stop offering insurance if the tax benefits of employer-sponsored insurance were eliminated. As a result, some currently insured workers could lose coverage.

http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/full/359/8/781

"Not your income tax, not your payroll tax, not your capital gains taxes, not any of your taxes. And my opponent can't make that pledge, and here's why. For the first time in American history, John McCain wants to tax your health-care benefits. Apparently, Senator McCain doesn't think it's enough that health care premiums have doubled, he thinks that you should have to pay taxes on them, too. That's a $3.6 trillion tax increase potentially on middle-class families. And that would eventually leave tens of millions of you paying higher taxes or losing your benefits. That's his idea of change." - Barack Obama, Sept 12, 2008

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0aa4ipe4fhU&eurl=http://dailykos.com

[annabanana]

3. I'm sure that tax breaks will make it possible for the MAJORITY of

Americans to save enough to more than cover all the hospitalization, medication, anesthesia, doctors, hospital rooms, supplies, durable equipment, nursing care, monitoring equipment and surgery needed to survive an automobile accident or a triple bypass.

[RB TexLa]

4. I love my HSA. It's not the answer to uninsured but it sure helps me save a lot of money

by being able to get much lower premiums with a catastrophic policy instead of paying for a full priced one.

[dtotire]

17. Do you get regular physicals and immunizations?

You need these, in order to maintain good health. Plus seeing a doctor regularly.

[RB TexLa]

19. No, but I wouldn't spend the money for that with a regular plan either

Never did so I saved a $20 co-pay. Now I save what I would give to a doctor for and a lot in premiums and the money I put in the HSA earns a return.

[nichomachus]

30. Suitable for some people -- not for others

I used mine too, when I was working, but it's clearly an option for people who have disposable income to put into it.

Many people are working two jobs just to keep food on the table.

[SammyWinstonJack]

5. Take away his government paid health care, NOW! he's rich enough from gouging and looting us, he

can pay for his own health care! POS useless human being. :grr:

[iamjoy]

6. The Logic Behind These Is Totally Flawed

The idea is supposed to be that individuals take charge of their healthcare costs and be wise consumers of health services. It puts consumers in control, not government bureaucrats, right?

Let's think of this in practical terms.
I have employer sponsored health insurance - a good PPO, not a high deductible with savings account. Say I discover a lump in my breast. Now, I call my doctor and schedule an appointment. She sets up a mammogram. IF that doesn't look good, I go for a biopsy. Since I have insurance, I don't really think about what it costs. My doctor's office takes care of the pre-authorization. I know I pay for the bureacracy at the medical providers and insurance company through higher premiums, but when I need healthcare, it is there. I deal with the hassles of reconciling insurance company statements and bills after the urgency of the situation has passed.

Under a "consumer driven" set up, I would discover the lump, then call around to see which doctors had the best prices. I imagine if one were to actually try to get a quote from a doctor as to what they charge it wouldn't be a straight answer or easy to compare because one may have a higher office visit cost, but lower fees for this test or that. Then I have to compare mammogram costs. Same thing with pricing. Next, I'm supposed to call around to hospitals and surgical centers, maybe even anesthesiologists, radiologists, etc. If you've ever had surgery, you get bills from people you never saw or talked to - like the pathologists. Now, I'd be telling my doctor go use this provider or that to save money and maybe my doctor thinks those providers aren't good and doesn't want to use them.

Now, imagine some one with chest pain calling around to find out what combination of providers will get them the cheapest angioplasty.

[annabanana]

7. I "rec" this post too!

The real world consequences of his cruel and craven "health plan" is staggering.

[Lorien]

8. Er, yeah. I'm a small business owner who has one of those "high deductable"

plans; it's all I can afford. I've never been covered for anything. NOT ONE THING! It is exactly that; say goodbye to health care, but pay them monthly anyhow.

[spooked]

10. Exactly!!

It's not HEALTH CARE it's Insurance (maybe) against losing your home...and how long will it take you to build up enough in your account for that?!

Meanwhile, Americans get sicker and sicker...

Hey, let's just drink water and hope for traces of the RIGHT drugs in your water supply?

[ddeclue]

9. Oh yeah THAT's gonna be useful....

Even if you make 90,000/year and invested ALL of it into an HSA, ONE major problem later your account is STILL empty and you are STILL bankrupt.

The ONLY answer is nationalization like they have in Canada, England and the rest of the civilized world.

1/20/09 can't come soon enough...

Doug D.

[RB TexLa]

23. If you have a $5,600 annual out of pocket max, how are you going to be bankrupted in a year?

You can't invest that much in your HSA anyway. $5,600 is the maximum deductible they will let you have and $2900 is the most per year you can invest. I don't think dealing with a $2700 bill is as dire as you make it out to be.

[onethatcares]

41. have you had a three day hospital stay recently?

you know, for a car accident or an accident at home? Or maybe a problem of some type? Your 5600.00 will just about get you in the door, I don't know what it will get you in the way of treatment. How about having a one of your kids fall out of a tree or off his bike, breaking his arm or leg or suffering a concussion. Do you have an inkling of how much that would cost?

But you could always invest in Lehman bros.

We deserve the same healthcare plan our elected representatives have. No more/No less

[RB TexLa]

42. The $5,600 is the out of pocket maximum. The high deductible plan usually has

a 2,000 deductible for a hospital admission which you pay out of your HSA. Then your policy pays. You can put the whole $2,900 in the HSA at the beginning of the year.

With family coverage you can put more per year in your HSA. I just use the $2900 which is for an individual because that is what mine is and is the terms I think in.

[radfringe]

11. shouldn't that screen say

Benefiting American CORPORATIONS?

regular americans - screwed again

[spooked]

13. Yes, Down is Up and War is Peace

By the way, the MOST SICKENING thing I have seen in A LONG TIME was delegates at the GOP convention holding dozens of little signs saying "PEACE". Yeah, right.

[radfringe]

14. off topic...but enjoy

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GvtKGNvJ5u4

[marmar]

12. What is it with these freaks and savings accounts?

Yeah, let's put our money for health care and retirement into crooked financial institutions that will go out of business and declare the accounts null and void?

:dunce:

[Greyhound]

33. It's a win-win-win-win for them.

The appearance of doing something.

Distraction from the real issue.

Hundreds of billions funneled into their lackeys businesses.

Continues the looting of our resources.

[HughBeaumont]

40. Another great "idea" from the "Personal Responsibility" crew!

As in, "Personally, all the Responsibility should fall on YOU, Worker!"

Read The Great Risk Shift by Jacob Hacker. Can't reccommend this book enough . . . it details exactly who's behind the shifting of all the risk/loss from the corporation to the worker/poor/unemployed individual, when it started and why it's turned America into the one-sided plutocracy it is today. Hint: the Corptocracy had plants EVERYwhere. Business. Congress. Education. Publishing Houses. Media. Hospitals. The White House. It's been a slow motion grab since the early 60s, Ronald Reagan was groomed and used as the keykeeper of the Floodgates and the machine behind him expanded like a hydra, training charges like Karl Rove, Lee Atwater, Martin Feldstien (now a McCain stooge), Paul Weyrich, Grover Norquist and the Failure Fuhrer himself to do the Corptocracy's bidding.

The brilliance of it all is how they managed to dupe more than 50-something million "useful idiots" to be the excavators of their own financial graves. Is it any wonder why we've had only two Democratic presidents in the last 40 years? Is it any surprise that this current election isn't a 20 point blowout like it should be? They've molded their message into a drug of enablement and power that the dupes snort up like uncut Brazilian cocaine.

[BuelahWitch]

15. I had a "heath savings account" back in the '80s

Only it was IN ADDITION TO my other insurance and covered things that the insurance didn't. I believe it was called a "flexible spending account." I also had one with my last job that offered insurance. They are helpful with things like braces and eyeglasses, but to believe they could pay for a major operation is ludicrous.

I agree with the poster who said make Bush pay for his own health care out of a "health savings account." Anyone in Congress who votes for this debacle should surrender theirs as well.

[WillowTree]

37. An FSA is entirely different from a Health Savings Account.

Not even close to being the same thing.

[Wednesdays]

16. While we're at it, why isn't he showing any concern for the health of

The people along the Texas coast?

Maybe he's going to fly around, play the guitar, and give McSame a cake. :argh:

[eShirl]

18. NIXON WOULD BE SO PROUD

[Greyhound]

31. Ironically, he actually wanted and proposed national healthcare.

Just FYI.
:kick:

[annabanana]

43. He was MOST intrigued with the Kaiser-Permanente plan, remember..

(There was footage in SICKO)

That plan turned into our HMO's and they've been just wonderful. . . .

[LWolf]

20. I said goodbye to health care

when enough Democrats refused to sign on to HR 676 to keep it stalled.

Again when a health-insurance promoter was nominated.

:shrug:

[WillyT]

22. Looks Like A Scene From, And Puts A Knew Twist On, "Dr. Strangelove"

:scared:

:shrug:

[dysfunctional press]

24. higher deductibles- that's the answer we've been searching for! genius!

now that the american health care system has been saved, on to the next issue!


(is the :sarcasm: smilie REALLY necessary?)

[RB TexLa]

25. It doesn't save health care and it's not the answer to uninsured but it

is an answer to high premiums. It lets you give far less money to the insurance companies. They aren't for everyone but they do work great. Pretty much it allows me to self insure against small costs with money earning a return with a 33% premium because the money I put in is tax deductible and the returns aren't taxed and give the insurance companies much less for the high deductible policy.

[dysfunctional press]

26. "It lets you give far less money to the insurance companies."

yep- and it lets you get far less coverage for many many things.

they are completely meaningless for people who don't have the means.
like ALL republican ideas.

[RB TexLa]

27. You use your account for the small stuff that wouldn't be covered. And yes they aren't for everyone

I stated that. There needs to be a plan for the government for those who don't have the means, I believe we need to do that. But those who are healthy should be allowed a way to save money. Tax by wealth not by health.

[dysfunctional press]

28. single-payer universal coverage is the only sane solution.

medical savings accounts would and should be completely unnecessary.

[onethatcares]

45. we, as citizens of the United States of America

deserve the same healthcare plan as our elected representatives. No More/No Less.

[AzDar]

29. K & R...

:kick:

[Dukkha]

32. never take health care advice from a mentally ill sociopath

and the worst economist in decades

[patriotvoice]

34. It doesn't address the root cause: systemic price fixing.

I can save all day long, but when the price is fixed above what I am able to pay, my savings mean nothing. One might argue that insurance companies aren't "fixing" prices, so much as "manipulating" the cost structure, and that's a compatible argument. My point is that insurance companies often determine how much a service costs, not a doctor. When middle men determine cost, you have a serious economic problem that cannot be solved without government regulation.

[rucky]

35. You nailed it! n/t

[melm00se]

36. I have an HSA

and use it to pay for my co-pays and deductibles.

better to work for $1 to pay $1 than to work for $1.30 to pay $1 (pre-tax vs post-tax).

It takes a little bit of planning but it works for me

[Vinca]

38. I can get a health savings account, it's the insurance policy

to cover my self-employed ass that's $12,000 a year. That's the part I can't afford.

[mwooldri]

39. I used to have health care.

They called it the NHS.

Then I moved. Bad move.

Mark.

[marked50]

44. HSA's hidden downsides-tax code etc

I have had an HSA for about 3 years now and have been generally pleased but it has created issues for me.

Although the coverage will pay up to $400 for routine checkups this has been a battle because the doctor we go to does not file with the HSA insurer that the visit was "routine". In other words the phasing does not include the word "routine". I have had to get the doctor to change his filing methods and work with the insurer to accept the changes- a hassle to be sure but I have the time and I am sure that many others with this plan don't.

Secondly, the hidden tax downside is simply how much time it takes to figure out what the contributions should be and what to do about withdrawals, especially if they are in error and keeping all the records straight. The first year I spent a solid day just on this tax topic alone for my return. Again, I have the time but what a hassle for those who don't.

And lastly, I am basically using it as another savings account now because of that withdrawal accuracy thing. I never use it for actually paying out for services because when I pay at the Doc's there is always a miss between what he charges and the insurer pays so I usually end up having paid too much and hence would have "taxably" withdrawn too much from the HSA unless I spend that extra time at tax time with the bank to get things straight again.

In simple description. An HSA is way to complicated for most people to deal with if they are busy just trying to keep up anyway- which is most poor and middle income folks these days. I am retired.

[DailyGrind51]

46. So that the free-market can do to health care what it did to banking?

I'm glad my cemetery plot and tombstone are paid for!