They just had a presser on teevee about the California train crash

[Stinky The Clown]

They said the Metrolink engineer ran a red light and the crash happened because of that. The engineer is presumed dead in the crash.

(I don't know if this is on DU already. I have been out most of the day and this didn't show up in any searches.)

[Cleita]

1. DU has been silent about this.n/t

[malaise]

2. No there were threads since last night and comments on other threads

What's most troubling is that 87 persons critically injured. I suspect they are lying and don't want to say over 100 people are dead. 23 persons have died so far. Very sad. Ignorance is spreading - people who break red lights on the roads won't have a problem breaking them on railway tracks.

[liberal renegade]

6. Engineers and conductors

don't run red lights on purpose. They were either asleep, confused or distracted. My question is whether or not the Metrolink locomotive was equipped with cab signals. Double track prevents trains from colliding head on.

[scott summers]

7. Or drunk. It happens

[Stinky The Clown]

14. There was an AMTRAK crash into a Conrail freight near here some years ago.

Deaths resulted.

The Conrail crew were high (not drunk).

Yeah. It happens.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chase,_Maryland_rail_wreck

[A HERETIC I AM]

26. The accident you cite was over 21 years ago. Not too many stoned Engineers out there these days.

I started driving over the road tractor trailers back in 1987 and there was no mandatory drug screen for truck drivers back then. I'm not sure what the railroads standards were back in those days but I can tell you this; They are a lot more stringent these days.

I would be very surprised if they find the Metrolink driver or the Union Pacific crew was stoned.

[scott summers]

28. My brother in law is in trucking. He says there is lots less doped drivers but it still happens.

He has said that some drivers pound down the booze before they sleep and wake up with a hangover and drive like that, even though they are not drunk.

I don't mean to imply that here, but just saying its possible, just like the Freighter captain who hit the bay bridge was on all kinds of medications, too.

One thing is for sure: he made a big mistake, for whatever reasons.

[A HERETIC I AM]

32. I drove OTR for 20 years and hung up my keys 2 years ago last May..

and sure, it still happens, but it is exceedingly rare.

[scott summers]

30. I remember that now that you mention it. Those are high paying union jobs too.

Cant imagine what they were thinking doing dope on the job.

[progressivebydesign]

3. Probably threads in LBN. What a horrific crash. My sympathies to the victims. n/t

[JSK]

16. My good friend's husband was killed

She was up all night trying to get info on his status, calling hospitals and the coroner's office. But I guess if you haven't gotten that call from him telling you he is ok, it's hard not to assume the worst. The police came to her door at 8AM today to tell her he was dead.

:cry:

[Fumesucker]

17. Please convey our sympathies and condolences to your friend.. n/t

[sicksicksick_N_tired]

23. How sad,...

,...poor lady! :-(

[SoCalDem]

38. I know several people who ride the train.. I have not heard any bad news

so I am hopeful that they were not on that particular train ..

[napi21]

4. I suppose anything's possible, but IMO, it's the same BS story

an airline always gives when the pilot died in the crash! PILOT ERROR! Dead men can't testify!

I'm no expert on railroads, but my husband worked for a locomotive mfg. for almost 10 years. MOST of the time when two trains are on the same track and heading toward each other, it's because someone handling the master control center board failed to advise one of the engineers to switch to another track. In this case, it would obviously have been thr freight train, since the commuter would take the same route every day.

[XemaSab]

5. Word

Someone at the switchboard fucked up.

[liberal renegade]

10. no they didn't.

[XemaSab]

11. You're right, I don't really know what happened

I just think blaming dead crew members is the easy way out, and it's often the fault of the dispatchers or sheer equipment error.

[liberal renegade]

15. Most generally it's the train crews fault

and not the dispatchers fault. Train crews are governed by a series of signals spaced a mile or so apart. This is called a block. The Metro would have passed two signals before coming upon the red. First signal would have been a flashing yellow, second would be solid yellow and the last one red. Flashing yellow means immediately reduce to 40 mph, prepared to stop at second signal, solid yellow means immediately reduce to 30 mph prepared to stop at next signal. The freight train received a red over flashing yellow, which is a diverging signal, which means immediately reduce speed and prepare to diverge into siding at next signal. Signals are controlled by trains entering and leaving the block. If the metro train had cab signals aboard the locomotive it would have prevented this accident. Cab signals are designed to alert crew of the signal just passed if it's anything less than green. You have 6 seconds to acknowledge signal, and if you fail to acknowledge the signal, your train goes into a penalty brake application. Chances are it's gonna be the Metro crews fault.

[Fumesucker]

18. Could you explain this sentence a bit more?

"You have 6 seconds to acknowledge signal, and if you fail to acknowledge the signal, your train goes into a penalty brake application."

That sounds to me as though there was some form of mechanical malfunction also, if the brakes did not automatically apply as your sentence above appears to indicate they should.

[liberal renegade]

20. okay

cab signals alert train crews of the signal aspect they just passed. If said signal is anything other than green, an alarm goes off, if they don't acknowledge the alarm within 6 seconds, the train stops, it goes into emergency. It's obvious Metro train had no cab signals or they would not have run past the BIG RED ONE.

[Fumesucker]

22. So a safety device that should have been present and working..

Was either not there or not properly working?

While I'm a fan of safety devices in general it is fairly well established that people tend to get lax about safety when they think a device has the back up.

The classic example is ABS in cars, it hasn't lowered the accident rate because people assume the ABS is going to allow them to get out of anything.

[liberal renegade]

25. Not there, is more likely.

Not all territory is cab signal territory. If the locomotive is equipped with cab signals and you're going to run in cab signal territory, crew members must perform a cab signal test before departing. If cab signal device does not function properly, the train cannot depart until defect is fixed or locomotive is replaced. No responsible crew would ever depart the station without cab signal protection, that is a serious rule violation resulting in termination. A big, fat, hefty fine is also given by the FRA. "Cab Red Zone" was not followed by the crew on board the Metro, regardless.

[Fumesucker]

29. So would the cab signal device not being present be a safety violation?

I assume that by "cab signal territory" you mean the particular track is equipped with the proper cab signaling device(s).

I have a hard time believing that a heavily traveled commuter track and train would not have such a basic safety device.

[liberal renegade]

33. I'm assuming cab signal protection is not in place

at that particular stretch of track. No way in hell would they have got by a flashing yellow and a solid yellow without going into an emergency stop. The crew simply failed to have in cab communication and ran past 2 warning signals prior to the big RED ONE. Most likely because they were asleep. Cab signals are to protect against sleeping or distracted crews. Cab signal protection should be in place system wide, but unfortunately it is not.

Simply put, the crew FUCKED UP BIG TIME! If you are going to run in cab signal territory and cab signal device does not function it is a safety violation that must be corrected immediately. You cannot depart with that locomotive!

[Fumesucker]

34. Your comment about them probably being asleep is interesting to me..

I have a friend that works for Norfolk Southern and he tells me that engineers often go short of sleep due to screwed up scheduling.

Do you think that could be a factor in this crash?

[liberal renegade]

35. Absolutely

as a former switchman, brakeman, conductor, and engineer, I know. You get caught short of sleep. You are on call 24/7 365 days a year. You can go off duty and be back to work 8 hours later. They have to give you 8 hours off after clocking out, but they can call you after 6.5 hours, give you 90 minutes to be there, that's your 8 hours. We all get caught short and the rule of thumb is, if the train is moving, conductor naps, when train is stopped engineer naps. Of course that is against the rules, but it is a necessary evil. You watch each others back. Sad to say, but this crew didn't work together very well.

The Union Pacific and Burlington Northern Sante Fe Railroads are trying their damnedest to implement 1 man crews. Thats a scary thought.

[Fumesucker]

36. It will be interesting to see if the sleep deprivation aspect makes it into the M$M coverage..

Something tells me that the media will not give much shrift to sleep deprivation.

I've heard of airliners on international flights flying along with the entire flight deck crew asleep.

[liberal renegade]

37. Indeed it will be.

If i'm not mistaken, BNSF does have a napping policy. I don't know the details. Fatigue is the biggest safety issue out there and a napping policy could do wonders for weary crews. Just a 20 minute power nap is all it takes. How many crew members did the Metro have? Asleep at the controls of a moving train, plain and simple.

[liberal renegade]

9. the freight train

had a diverging signal to head into the siding and get out of the way. Metrolink was to be stopped at red signal until freight train entered the siding and was in the clear. It isn't the dispatchers fault as he had the freight train lined for the siding. When the freight train cleared up the rail, the Metrolink would have got a green signal to proceed. The fault is that of the train crew on Metrolink.

[ogneopasno]

8. I read on latimes.com that Metrolink

subcontracts out its engineers and conductors. WTF?

[malaise]

12. Don't rule that out either

When you opt for cheap labor, everyone suffers.
There are no fugging standards anymore. Bushco, McPalin - same shit.

[ogneopasno]

13. Exactly. That blew me away.

And once I heard it, maybe I'm prejudiced, but I thought, "OH, that explains the complete and utter fuckup that happened."

[malaise]

19. Nothing prejudiced about that

Short cuts always lead to trouble.

[Retrograde]

21. don't know about Metrolink

but in the San Francisco area Caltrans contracts with Amtrak for its train crews. They all seem reasonably competent to me.

[itsrobert]

24. I heard freight trains have priority on the tracks in California

Is that correct?

[rufus dog]

27. you are correct. n/t

[RB TexLa]

31. And the poor family of the conductor, after what now will be 24 wrongful death lawsuits they

are going to have nothing from their mother or father.