Maybe those critical of New Orleans during Katrina..

[JackDragna]

..will finally shut up after what appears to be a debacle in Texas regarding getting people out of the way of Ike. The Houston Chronicle website says 100,000 people may have stuck out the storm in that state. DU, for the most part, was very supportive of Louisiana during and after Katrina, but so far as the rest of the country goes, I've seen no end of "those people should've gotten out/what about all the buses/just proves how lazy THOSE people are" comments. Katrina was the worst natural disaster in our nation's history, and I seriously doubt any city would've handled it much better than New Orleans, given the scope of the damage. Now, a similar scenario repeats itself in Texas, and we see one of the great truisms of America: people are stand-their-ground, individualistic and dumb in every damned part of the country. Of course, it won't be fashionable nationally to bag on Texans, because I imagine most of the people affected are white. Still, there's some glimmer of hope some of the knuckle-draggers who took joy in roasting New Orleans might realize that which they criticized its citizens for is an endemic part of American life.

[BlooInBloo]

1. It depends almost entirely on whether the bulkl of the victims are black, or not.

[iamjoy]

2. True, That

when the poor African Americans didn't leave New Orleans before Katrina, they were idiots for ignoring the mandatory evacuation order.
When wealthy, white people stay put, they have courage and resilience - you know how Texans are!

[malaise]

3. That's why there will be no news helicopters

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x3993434

[SammyWinstonJack]

4. You think Houston is mostly white?

:shrug:

[alarimer]

10. Galveston certainly isn't.

But there were buses available and a number to call for rides so there is not that excuse this time. People did not take this seriously enough. Even the mayor of Galveston didn't "think it would be so bad."

Even with mandatory evacuations, some fools will still stay. In that case, they are completely on their own and should not expect help from anyone.

[TTUBatfan2008]

5. Katrina wasn't the worst...

The Galveston hurricane of 1900, which killed between 6,000 and 12,000 people and almost entirely destroyed the city, was the worst.

http://a.abcnews.com/US/HurricaneRita/popup?id=1149050

[TNDemo]

6. The people in Katrina obeyed orders and

evacuated to the superdome and convention center and still were abandoned for days on end. The ones in TX stayed despite a mandatory evacuation.

[TTUBatfan2008]

8. Then why were thousands of people...

rescued from rooftops in New Orleans? That's a pretty big generalization you just made.

[MiniMe]

11. Not exactly. They were told to evacuate the city, I'm pretty sure it was

a mandatory evacuation. The superdome was a shelter of last resort if you didn't get out in time. Galveston didn't even give them any options until it was basically too late for them to evacuate.

[RB TexLa]

7. One big difference, Americans have never cared about Louisiana or Louisianians

never have and never will.

[Bluebear]

9. CRITICAL? You're the one who told us all to shut up about Katrina

"I'm sorry, but this has to be said. I'm getting a little tired of all the people who post here with overblown drama, about how the hurricane has intensified, the damage it may cause or even the millionth repetition of "It's going to be bad! Get out now!" Those of us who live here in the state know what's going to happen far better than you. The voyeuristic concern, as if many people here need to feel "connected" to what's going here, is a little disquieting.

We here who live in the state know what we need to do. We know the potential for death and destruction of property this storm brings. We've been keeping tabs on it long before any of you even considered the possibility the storm may be a threat. If you want to post about the storm, that's fine, but realize that we here in Louisiana are more than a touch underwhelmed by your knowledge, your compassion and your concern for what's going on here. We appreciate your well-wishing, but please stop telling us how bad it's going to be and what we need to do."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=4480189

I will never get over that rude post, calling people's concerns "voyeuristic".

[uppityperson]

12. That is a wild link. Thank you for posting that. Waiting to hear a reply from OP

Maybe has matured in the last 3 yrs?

[Bluebear]

13. I never forgot that. People legitimately frightened out of their minds for people

and to be dismissed like that.

[JackDragna]

26. The people I responded to...

..weren't the ones legitimately concerned about others. They were the ones who were obsessed with posting big graphics of Katrina's path, telling Louisiana residents to flee in all caps and otherwise behaving rather ghoulishly about the whole thing. Then again, I doubt you or the idiot who called me an "arrogant asshole" below are much interested in the context.

[Skittles]

31. oh I see

so a fucking HURRICANE should be ignored - fuck off, will ya? You're acting like a complete ass.

[JackDragna]

32. Again, you're missing the point.

It shouldn't be ignored, but there's a little tact to be shown in how people talk about it. Let's say, for example, someone you know was going to die of a particular kind of cancer. You post about it here, looking for sympathy. Shortly after, several others take it upon themselves to respond to your post with things like "OMG PANCREATIC CANCER! NO ONE SURVIVES THAT!", 5-year survival rates and other dramatic information. You'd likely feel such people had crossed the line from concern to an uncomfortable level of fascination with your problem.

That's how many of those Katrina posts felt. As I've stated here, and in the post I made earlier, if people are genuinely offering support and comfort, good. I remember, however, how it was around here during Katrina. I've even seen some people posting things about Ike and Gustav here recently, and people saying things to them very similar to what I said earlier.

[EFerrari]

34. You are making a very important point and I think it will get lost.

But, I agree with you. When your friends are dealing with an emergency, telling them what to do and how bad off they are is singularly unhelpful.

And, emotions can run high and both parties in the exchange can and do talk at cross purposes. This is the internet. We don't have the other 80% visual that we usually have to understand what other people say and what it means.

[Bluebear]

38. Liz, sorry to disagree

There were people here that insisted they were going to "ride it out", who didn't think it would be bad, people we "knew" through the community, and we were legitimately concerned for them.

This poster doesn't see how his post could be offensive, and here he is again pontificating about hurricanes and telling people to "bite him" along the way. It's totally offensive.

[JackDragna]

39. And as I've said time and again..

I have no problem with people talking about their concerns with the storms, helping each other out and so on. My problem was with the disaster voyeurism. Unfortunately, you and a whole gaggle of other people are firmly in the new American camp of "anything that is critical of anything that remotely resembles my position is critical of my position," so you think I'm out to get you. I'm not. I will, however, make no apologies for biting the heads off the hysterical and those who seemed to delight a little too much in posting storm tracks.

EDIT: By the way, the person I told to "bite me" called me an asshole. If it offends people for me to tell people who call me an asshole to bite me, then I invite the offendees to go drink a big glass of Drano and reduce the surplus population.

[EFerrari]

42. I was here, too, and remember.

Legitimate concern can take a lot of forms,though, some of them more helpful than others. That's a legitimate point. Whether it was or is being said in a way people can hear is something else again and the OP may want to take a look at that.

If you remember, people both on site and remote were all pretty upset during the whole thing. That's when sh!t happens between people.

[Skittles]

35. I live in Texas

I don't give a flying fuck what people post about Hurricane Rita or Ike or the tons of other hurricanes that will hit Texas. HURRICANES ARE NEWS. And there will always be people who respond with inappropriate things - care to hear what people said to me after my dad killed himself? LEARN TO USE THE IGNORE FUNCTION.

[JackDragna]

40. ..and if they don't like having someone berate them..

for their inappropriate behavior, then too bad. This is a net forum. Just as one is free to say what one wills, so too is one free to criticize the writing of others. As far as ignore goes, I suggest you take your own advice.

[merh]

14. man, I had forgotten about that shitty thread

x(

[Bluebear]

15. It just comes up like something that didn't sit on your stomach well

every so often.

:hi:

[merh]

17. so many held me up during that time

I know we have had our disagreements and that I can be an ass but I hope you know that I will never forget or be able to repay what you and others did for me during that time.

please forgive me for being an ass

:hug:

[Bluebear]

18. stop...

all done :hug:

[merh]

21. thank you

:hug: :loveya:

[malaise]

16. I missed that post

DU is the greatest.

[Breeze54]

20. Wow.... sounds like something bush would say...

what an ******* !!

Thanks for the link, Bluebear

Gheesh!

[JackDragna]

28. You can bite me, too.

If you don't like what I said, there's the PM box right over there.

[Skittles]

22. what an arrogant piece of shit

ugh - thanks PT

[JackDragna]

27. And you're about as well-informed..

..and smart as the people who were the subject of that post.

[Skittles]

30. and you determined that - how exactly?

oh I know - by being an arrogant piece of shit

[JackDragna]

33. Because you jumped in..

..on the bandwagon of people taking potshots at me without bothering to take into consideration the context of what I said. I'd rather be an arrogant piece of shit than someone who rips people based on knowing about 1/4th of what they actually said.

[JackDragna]

24. You couldn't possibly have misconstrued that post any worse.

That post of mine was about the need for people to revert to sensationalistic postings that were essentially "OMG! Katrina is a monster! GET OUT NOW!" The posts smacked of disaster voyeurism. Nothing about what I said was meant to be a criticism of people who were concerned about the hurricane's aftermath or the political fallout from how the recovery was handled or how seriously Louisiana citizens took the evacuation. Your post couldn't be more off-the-topic, hilarious, or irrelevant. Let's see if you have the gumption, after basically posting something out of context and leaving a crew of vultures to back you up here, to respond to my post.

[Bluebear]

37. Certainly I have the "gumption" to post, but mind you, you left a 3 year impression

Interestingly, in retrospect you refuse to even entertain the notion that that post could have been anything but offensive. THAT is arrogant. As is calling my post hilarious and irrelevant, which really ices the cake about the vibes you evidently like to send out about yourself.

[JackDragna]

41. You're creating a strawman..

..because, in the end, I WANTED it to be offensive. I even said so in the original post you deemed to quote. Who I wanted to offend, however, were the disaster voyeurs, the sensationalists and the people who just "feel" they have to be connected to problems by being hysterical about them. Yet, you made no attempt to deal with that part of my post when you decided to take a pot-shot at me above, even though I made that explicitly clear in the Katrina post. I invite you to go back, click on your own link, read my writing, then see if I deserve your invective.

[JVS]

46. Mmm, warmed over flame-war.

:popcorn:

[Igel]

19. NOLA was told in the early 2000s

to have evacuation plans. They were told to make them for 100% of the population.

After Katrina, members of the planning committee said they had ignored the bottom 20% of the population, those with no cars. They knew they were ignoring them and not planning for them. The decisions were political, economic, and NOLA couldn't make them. FEMA told them, the members said, to comply, but had no enforcement mechanism.

Now, it's one thing if people decide to stay. Forcibly evacuating 100k people against their will is difficult. But you make plans to get them out, even if they don't agree. That's the role of the planning committee and local governments.

Those in NOLA who decided to stay were stupid. Those who *couldn't* get out were the responsibility of the NOLA government. Those who stayed in Galveston were stupid, as well. And they've been called "stupid" in the media.

It's the same with the evacuation orders. NOLA was reliably told more than 12 hours before landfall as to Katrina's likely course. But the mandatory evacuation order came Sunday morning. Not Saturday night. Not earlier on Saturday. Delaying was stupid and spineless. Yes, I just called Nagin stupid and spineless. He was.

Galveston, Brazoria and Harris counties got evacuation orders on Thursday, more than 24 hours before landfall. They could have started earlier. One problem was found when Rita was approaching: You evacuate Galveston and Houston, and if Beaumont and Port Arthur are the targets, there are no resources for their evacuation, and no place for them to go. Still, TX had evacuation orders in place earlier than NOLA managed--with provisions for 100% of the population. One fix was to have phased evacuations; where I live, we were told to "hunker down" (which, apparently, folk in big cities find an amusing term; I had a roommate from Idaho so it seems like a normal enough term ... dialectal diversity is another kind of diversity many can't support, it seems.)

NOLA--whatever the melanin content of the deciders--goofed up badly. So did Houston with Rita, in many ways different from NOLA's. If you think criticism is a form of patriotism and loyalty, then what does blind obedience entail? Shouldn't we be critical when people goof up, or do we ignore NOLA because it's so special?

Or are we playing honor-group games with the truth and with principle?

[JackDragna]

29. I'm not saying New Orleans is without blame..

..but the invective directed against its citizens is unwarranted. The whole point of this post was to point out that everyone on the coast, and not just people in Louisiana, are stubborn and think they can ride out the worst storms to hit the Gulf. Even the other hurricane you mentioned, Rita, proves the same level of competency (or lack of it) in other parts of the country. The evac of Houston during Rita was a complete fiasco. Granted, it didn't kill thousands of people, but it was nowhere near what it should've been. Cars stranded, people dying during the evac..it wasn't pretty. I'm merely tired of people around the country holding up Louisiana as some paragon of idiocy during a national disaster when other places aren't exactly performing with flying colors.

[Igel]

45. Not a paragon of citizen idiocy, to be sure.

Well, no more than elsewhere.

[nadinbrzezinski]

23. Don't forget Ohio, hell's bells the midwest

now what I hope is that this wakes people up... global warming is real

[crimsonblue]

25. The Galveston didn't make the evacuation call until Wednesday.

I wonder how many hundreds would've survived had the mayor done something earlier.

[EFerrari]

36. Did anyone know earlier than Wednesday that Galveston would be hit?

[bread_and_roses]

43. Yahoo headline on AP story this AM calls those who stayed "Ike Stalwarts"

I do not recall any term with such positive connotations as "stalwart" ever in a headline about those who were left behind or stayed voluntarly in NO.

[JackDragna]

44. That's my point, exactly.

It's politically acceptable to sling mud at Louisiana, but not Texas. I mean, my God, the president has a house there! Think of the children.