FEMA is STILL messing things up, and you're seeing a COVER-UP.

[FlyingSquirrel]

Your average Republican doesn't really care that nothing was done for the mostly-black population of New Orleans.

But when it's shown to be incompetent even when dealing with a majority-white Republican stronghold such as Texas, well then your average Republican may finally start to wonder.

And the thing they'll be wondering is, well, if the Government can't manage to perform its basic function in the face of a natural disaster when they had plenty of notice, after already failing miserably before and having claimed to have learned important lessons...

What good is it?

What other responsibilities will it fail to fulfill?

Just how completely incompetent are they, anyway?

And so the media will continue to be manipulated, the local government leaders will be pressured to avoid criticizing the Federal Government's response to the storm, and blamed and demonized if they do; and as usual they'll try to run out the clock by obscuring the facts and making false claims as to how well they've handled this latest disaster.

Hard to see how they can maintain this for the next 7 weeks, how they can avoid giving the nation the impression that they were once again unprepared and will once again provide inadequate help in rebuilding the community (with the exception of the oil refineries and platforms, of course!)

Brittney Spears, where are you? You are needed more than ever!

:eyes:

[Indydem]

1. Do you have specifics?

Or is your general complaint that they didn't erect a giant forcefield in the path of Ike?

[Name removed]

3. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[cwydro]

9. Well, what is it that needs to be done?

Are there people cooped up in a large dome without food or water or basic necessities?

I would like to know too and I HAVE been watching TV and reading.

It was a large Cat 2 storm. I have been through one myself and things do not happen overnight.

Anyone who lives in a hurricane zone should be prepared with food and water to last themselves at least a week.

Those who canot take care of themselves should evacuate.

I do not expect the damn government (especially FEMA) to take care of me. I am prepared and have everything I need, even if water and electricity is shut off. Geez, the people on this board who expect Big Brother ot take care of every little thing.

[uppityperson]

13. post #11 below has an article, here is link to post...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=4000253&mesg_id=4000347

"Those who canot take care of themselves should evacuate."? Can you see anything odd about that statement? I can.

edited to add, do you know what FEMA stands for? Emergency Management. Got it. For those in emergency situations.

[cwydro]

16. There were provisions made for those who could not.

Here in the Keys, buses take elderly and special needs out at the same time the tourists go.

So no, I see nothing odd about that statement. There was widespread publicity about getting out if you needed help.

They also take out anyone who cannot afford to go, including pets.

Edit for last sentence.

[HCE SuiGeneris]

23. Not quite as simple as you state...

Winters, on the other hand, had tried everything to get out before Ike hit. The native Galvestonian has been registered for special assistance for the last five years, she said, but no one came to the retirement community on 61st to help her and her cat escape.

Increasingly desperate as forecasters and government officials warned of certain death for coastal residents who remained in Ike's path, Winters spent the last few days on the phone, trying to find someone who could help her out of her first-floor apartment. She called 311, 211, 911 and the number for the city's Emergency Management Center. But she was still waiting at 8 p.m. Friday, when all rescue attempts ceased. That's when police, EMS and firefighters returned to the San Luis hotel, where they bunkered down with city officials and journalists.

Winters parked herself in front of the TV, switching between three networks and the Weather Channel until the power went out. Then she turned on her battery-powered radio and went to the bedroom to lie down. She woke up later with water trickling on her toes.

the rest of the story... http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/front/6000366.html

[cwydro]

33. Lot of questions there. Where were these neighbors before

the storm and why didn't she ask a neighbor for help? I would imagine she just decided to ride it out, as obviously others did there, and is now embarrassed to tell the truth.

Many who make that decision will not admit it because of the scathing comments made by others who are not in their shoes.

I find it difficult to believe an entire retirement communtiy had no set up for the eventuality of a hurricane. They are the first ones out down here. That falls on Houston, their mayor, their social services, etc. if that is indeed the case

[uppityperson]

38. Anyone who doesn't know their neighbors deserves to suffer. Got it.

[HCE SuiGeneris]

43. Amazing that you have such an ability to glean all of this from the article...

really, amazing.

[RoyGBiv]

78. Same pattern, over and over ...

The pattern of rationalizing the sufferings of others as though they somehow deserve it is repeated over and over. We like to blame it on Republicans around here, but it's everywhere. People pretend to understand the circumstances of others, and they pretend as though they have all they answers, that they would always make the right decisions and that everyone else should too.

And if they do not, they deserve to die.

Well screw that.

[sudopod]

151. Amen, bro.

I am fed up with all of the ridiculous "DUUUUUUR Im'ma tough guy survivalist and whoever isn't had it coming" wank.

[EFerrari]

15. If it wasn't generally recognized that people need help, there would be no FEMA in the first place.

You're funding the damn thing. Don't you want your money's worth? :sarcasm:

[cwydro]

21. I live in a hurricane zone and do not expect government to

take care of me. Especially the Bush government.

Anyone who lives in a hurricane zone is bombarded with info on hurricane preparedness from June 1 through the end of the blasted season. Anyone who is not prepared is a woefully ignorant or hiding their head in the sand.

[uppityperson]

25. Seems FEMA must've had the same warning, could've been ready

Just an odd thought here. That perhaps the Emergency Management Agency might have been prepared to feed first responders? Or to get ice/water/food in quicker? Maybe?

[EFerrari]

26. And anyone who can make such a statement about people

who aren't even dry yet is beyond description.

[cwydro]

56. Listen hon, I've been up to my neck in surge water.

I've made the decision to ride out every hurricane so far. I have had very very many scary and horrible experiences. I've huddled in a house as the water comes through the ceiling and the building shakes. I've lost a house and a car.

I take care of myself, my loved ones and my neighbors. All of us pull together. You have never seen a community come together until you survive a disaster.

I am NOT judging the people there, which you probably know but choose to deliberately ignore so you can continue to ride your little hobby horse.

I feel quite certain the majority of people there are not whining, but are pulling up their socks and cleaning out the nasty muck which comes in the house with the water. Or they are preparing to cut the trees that have fallen down or seing what is salvageable and above all, thanking their lucky stars it wasn't worse. It could have been.

I am just sick of all the stupid conspiracy theories that get going on here and how half you chicken little people are disappointed it wasn't worse and since it wasn't you gotta find something else to jump on.

Do you really expect government to hold your hand anytime mother nature beats up on you? Jesus, take some personal responsibility.

Are you really so ignorant as to not see you are playing right into the media hysteria? They want a story and did not get mass casualites, so this is what they are going after now. Geez, get a clue. I cannot believe you can't see it.

Now I find my blood pressure rising talking about this with people who have no clue what they are talking about, so I will go outside and finish picking up the debris still in my yard.

You just go on whining for Bush and his cronies to come help out.

[lyonn]

75. We are playing into the media's hands?

It is hard to find that much news about the gulf coast. A few pics here and there. As others have stated, we pay taxes for FEMA services. Most of us would much rather do for ourselves. A tornado took our house a few years ago. It wasn't a wide area like a hurricane but you can get pretty much trapped where you are and it is really nice having people that will crawl through the downed power lines and debris to get water and peanut butter to you. We had a couple of structures still left on property that we used as temporary housing. Some people are not that lucky. I will say that this was during Clinton's presidency and FEMA was all over the place getting the debris out of roads and yards. It is embarrassing to ask for govt. help. We didn't need it but I know there were those that did need a little boost and wanted to save their dignity and not ask the govt. Of course FEMA isn't there to provide someone with a new lifestyle.

[uppityperson]

92. Oh good lord "hon". What a pile. eom

[SammyWinstonJack]

147. No kidding! A big steaming pile!

[spiritsong13]

133. HEY JACKASS

I've been through a few hurricanes myself. A couple back to back, and I've seen clean water and ice stationsm as well as places to get first aid if needed within hours of the passing of a hurricane. These people didn't even have their sites coordinated as to where they would be set up. As I, and everyone else thats been through a hurricane knows, you can't always find the supplies you need when everyplace is sold out of bottled water and ice for 2-3 days before a hurricane. So get off your high horse and go f***ing help someone who needs it, which is what I've done after EVERY hurricane I've been involved in. :spank:

[SammyWinstonJack]

148. !!!

:thumbsup:

[dogday]

169. Good, that is more for the rest that need it...

And I am in Houston, and people need ice and water, it is the humane thing to do...

[Mojorabbit]

28. That is easy to say

I have been through many hurricanes and while I have had damage I always am stocked up and have muddled through needing only ice after a few days.

Then there is catastrophic damage where everything you own is washed out of the house and destroyed and one cannot do anything.. like my sister's house in Ocean springs after Katrina.

The shell of the house was left and nothing but rubble everywhere. All food and supplies lost in the storm. We camped in the front yard after I brought her supplies while beginning the cleanup. Someone had driven through the neighborhood giving out tents before I got there. Everyone was completely shellshocked and not thinking clearly.

Those people in that situation have nothing to work with and cannot pull themselves up. In both scenarios, ice and water are needed in the heat asap.

Fema was supposed to be prepositioned. There are a gazillion helicopters out there that could be delivering supplies to the people who are cut off. There is no excuse for running out of supplies in the first few days of this disaster. One hurricane is not the same as another. We pay good tax money to fund the organization and I expect it to deliver on what it is funded to do.

[uppityperson]

32. Exactly. Perparation helps but sometimes it is not enough.

When the neighborhood is flattened or washed away or burnt, FEMA should be prepared to help. We pay for it.

[EFerrari]

5. FEMA couldn't manage to feed the first responders in Houston lunch today.

Is that good enough for you or do you need to see actual bodies like on 9/11?

[HCE SuiGeneris]

7. Are you willfully ignorant?

Or is it that you don't care enough to know what is/isn't happening with FEMA and Chertoff?

[TheWatcher]

138. Shhhhhhhhhhh. You're interrupting his Football Stupor.

[uppityperson]

11. Here, try this article clip...

http://www.iht.com/articles/reuters/2008/09/15/africa/OUKWD-UK-STORM-IKE.php

As people in Galveston and Houston complained about the lack of food, water and ice in the sweltering heat, a rift emerged between federal and local officials over delays in aid.

"We expect FEMA to deliver these supplies, and we will hold them accountable," a visibly frustrated Houston Mayor Bill White told a televised news conference, referring to the Federal Emergency Management Agency.

The U.S. Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff acknowledged a delay in distribution but said 80 trucks of food and ice would arrive on Sunday night.

[lyonn]

Let's include the lack of gasoline

Silly Texans, forgot to have an additional supply for all the people that would fill up their cars prior to the Hurricane arriving. It seems many coastal towns ran out of gas days ago. Why were there not tankers at least on standby in case of this extra demand?

[TBF]

86. Have you ever been to Texas or Galveston?

I know that FEMA has been in Houston since earlier last week because we got local news reports, with camera footage, of the military arriving. They are there and they are covering this up. We will not see the carnage that we saw in New Orleans NOT because it has not happened, but because they are not showing it.

Galveston is not a piddly cow puddle somewhere. It's 27 miles long, 3 miles wide, and at least 140K people did not evacuate. I know they were not on the highway because we drove from northern brazoria county to dallas thursday morning, 70 mph the entire trip. We are getting no press out of galveston.

Indydem, I hope you are enjoying your illusions because while you are the country is becoming facist and one of your first clues is the disappearance of a free press.

[iamthebandfanman]

141. im pissed they didnt put a forcefield

infront of ur path.

[TwilightZone]

2. Considering that nearly 2,000 rescues have already taken place...

and there are a zillion rescue people in and around Houston and Galveston, I must admit that I'm not sure what you're referencing. They seemed significantly better prepared this time than during Katrina/Rita.

Edit: for the record, I agree that FEMA is still screwed up. That being said, the organization of the mass exodus of nearly a million people was *much* better organized than NO during Katrina and TX during Rita. If FEMA had anything to do with that, it was probably by accident.

[malaise]

6. Rescues were local and coastguard

FEMA supplies have not reached those in need.

[cwydro]

24. People in a hurricane zone should have supplies on hand.

Anyone who lives in these areas knows this.

We have supplies that could last us for probably three weeks if we had to.

[uppityperson]

29. What if your house gets destroyed, your car floats off, your supplies are gone?

I am prepared here at home and in my car to last a couple weeks. But, if my house were to burn, and I were not around my mobile supplies or they got destroyed, I would need help.

It happens.

[SammyWinstonJack]

150. Guess she doesn't think that ever happens.

:eyes:

[Pastiche423]

174. I don't believe she thinks at all

[intheflow]

45. Of course there's no possibility that their supply stockpile washed away.

:eyes:

[malaise]

62. We always have supplies too, but our place isn't going anywhere

How do you know their homes weren't washed away. I do agree that people should have basic supplies for three to five days. I see no reason to be looking for ice two days after a hurricane, but I don't know their situation.

[merh]

72. Hey Florida

Riddle me this - when your emergency supplies wash away, how are you supposed to have them on hand?

[sandnsea]

99. Some people have to eat those "supplies"

It's called this months grocery bill.

You're an ass.

[Name removed]

124. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[EFerrari]

8. Whose number is that?

FEMA is screwing up distribution AGAIN.

The only thing better prepared this time is their press strategy.

[TwilightZone]

12. Re: whose number....

http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/weather/09/14/hurricane.ike/index.html

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26695458/

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/15/us/15ike.html?_r=1&hp&oref=slogin

http://www.iht.com/articles/reuters/2008/09/15/africa/OUKWD-UK-STORM-IKE.php

[EFerrari]

18. Got it. It's AP quoting Anonymous:

"Authorities told reporters Sunday afternoon that 1,984 people had been rescued, including 394 by air."

[TwilightZone]

20. From the CNN link:

"Emergency personnel have rescued about 1,948 people, including 394 by air, along Texas' Gulf Coast, said Steve McCraw, director of Texas Homeland Security."

Doesn't seem terribly anonymous.

[EFerrari]

30. I think you're right. The AP anonimized them. See the MSNBC link you posted.

And I can't wait until the TX Department of HLS releases their data.

[RoyGBiv]

104. Press Strategy ...

I'd like to see a breakdown of FEMA's budget.

I have no evidence except what I'm witnessing, but I'd be willing to bet not-so insignificant increase went into whatever budget items serves for public relations or interfacing with media outlets.

[EFerrari]

137. I'd like to see that, too, and I wouldn't bet against you.

:thumbsup:

[uppityperson]

4. It would be nice if they paid attention, wouldn't it?

Not hoping for anyone to be hurting or without, but recognizing that FEMA is broken.

[OneGrassRoot]

10. Maybe the Obama camp will shine light on it. And where is Ron Paul? n/t

[Lebam in LA]

14. We need Clinton's FEMA Head guy back

I think his name was James Witt. FEMA was wonderful during the Northridge Earthquake. They responded immediately with NO notice. I can't wait for grownups to be in charge again.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

17. FEMA responsible for up to 140,000 people not following a mandatory evacuation.

Can't say as I agree with you there.

David

[uppityperson]

19. FEMA responsible for feeding first responders? How about that.

Houston wasn't under a mandatory evacuation order.

http://www.iht.com/articles/reuters/2008/09/15/africa/OUKWD-UK-STORM-IKE.php

As people in Galveston and Houston complained about the lack of food, water and ice in the sweltering heat, a rift emerged between federal and local officials over delays in aid.

"We expect FEMA to deliver these supplies, and we will hold them accountable," a visibly frustrated Houston Mayor Bill White told a televised news conference, referring to the Federal Emergency Management Agency.

The U.S. Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff acknowledged a delay in distribution but said 80 trucks of food and ice would arrive on Sunday night.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

36. The first responders should know how things go early in a disaster.

It always takes a while to get some stuff up and running. I always took plenty of food and drinks, just in case. We'll see how it all shakes out.

David

[uppityperson]

44. FEMA should be up and running faster.

It has been gutted and needs to be remade to work as it should. Perhaps if it were running like it should, you wouldn't need to take food and drinks and could concentrate on rescuing people.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

49. Perhaps.

Disasters are logistical nightmares. Responders show up in droves whether asked for or not, that's what we do. Fire departments and ambulance services send tons of equipment and personnel because they know the feds are footing the bill. Like I said we'll see how it all shakes out.

David

[uppityperson]

52. "Responders show up in droves whether asked for or not, that's what we do."

We do (having been a health care provider in more than 1 emergency). Hence, FEMA should do what it is meant to do and let responders do what they do.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

59. Not sure I understand...

Let's say FEMA calls 5,000 personnel out and 10,000 show up. How many of the extra 5,000 unexpected personnel should FEMA take care of?

[uppityperson]

61. Let's say FEMA is competent enough to figure it out, to be prepared,

to have enough supplies on hand. Perhaps MREs or other packaged food and water that won't go bad right away?

Why is it too much to ask the federal emergency management agency to be competent?

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

64. Who said that?

[uppityperson]

93. Um, I said that. See my user name by that post?

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

106. You asked yourself a question?

Did you answer?

David

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

83. Where did you see the First Responder's complaining about not having food?

It's not in your link.

David

[MiniMe]

101. It was on KHOU all day today

They asked for local people to help out, and they got tons of donations for the first responders.

[uppityperson]

102. Here's another story about it...300 (1st responders) out of food/water in Houston, blame FEMA

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/news/texassouthwest/stories/091508dnmetnatguard_.77e093b5.html

300 National Guardsmen out of food and water in Houston

06:23 PM CDT on Sunday, September 14, 2008

Associated Press

HOUSTON – Hundreds of first responders at two staging areas in Texas for Hurricane Ike have run out of food and water.

Congressman John Culberson said Sunday that 300 National Guardsmen, state troopers and other emergency workers are going hungry at a high-school football stadium — and at another staging area on Houston’s west side.

Culberson blamed FEMA for the gaffe and says he tried to contact Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff, who is touring flood-stricken areas of Texas.

Culberson says several buses full of gas are sitting idle at the stadium while crews await instructions. He called on area residents to take food and water to the crews at the stadium — despite official warnings for people to stay off Houston roads.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

105. That's strange.

When I was in the military we always carried MRE's. Especially when going places where food might be scarce. 3 MRE's should get you through 24 hours at a minimum.

David

[nadinbrzezinski]

135. It happens, not often, but it happens

and having managed disasters myself, I can tell you this FEMA is a disaster, unlike the FEMA of ten years ago

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

159. You may be right.

We'll see. I just don't see comparing this to Katrina in terms of screw ups.

David

[nadinbrzezinski]

166. Will see... but this FEMA is not as capable as it used to be

and this is by design

FEMA used to be a world wide model for response management

It no longer is.

As yourself why

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

167. What is the world wide model?

[EFerrari]

31. FEMA responsible for covering the situation regardless. n/t

[B2G]

37. That's BS.

What responsiblity falls on the state and local governments? I have followed this extensively. People were warned to get out. They were told they would face certain death if they stayed. And they were told that if they were complete idiots and decided to stay anyway, they should be prepared to be self sufficient with food & water for at least a week.

What part of this don't you get?

[uppityperson]

39. Houston wasn't warned of certain death or under mandatory evac orders.

What part of this don't you get?

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

42. I'm not talking about Houston.

Houston took a calculated risk. The last mandatory evacuation from Houston caused a lot of deaths.

David

[uppityperson]

46. I was replying to B2G

That is who that was talking to.

[B2G]

53. I get it, trust me

I get that everyone expects the government to be able to snap their fingers and make everthing fall magically into place less than 48 hours after a major disaster. I get you hate FEMA and that you think the good people who are trying their best are failing miserably. Believe me, I get that.

I also get that FEMA is being set up to come under attack no matter what, even if every single first responder goes to bed with a full belly tonight. And that pisses me off to no end.

[uppityperson]

No, you obviously don't get it at all.

I think FEMA should be prepared to deal with emergencies. And they aren't. Good people aside, and there are lots who are good and helping and doing as much as they can, FEMA as an organization is failing.

Do you get that?

[B2G]

67. I get that

you will be one of those sitting in your destroyed home screaming for help after 24 hours.

That much I get.

[uppityperson]

90. Bwahahahahahaha. I've met some really good people on DU.

And I've learned who to ignore.

[Hannah Bell]

132. i get that you're the kind of clown who can't talk to anyone without going to personal attack.

[Mojorabbit]

76. My sister is on the military

disaster response team. FEMA has had supplies and personnel prepositioned for over a week as has the military. She was deployed to wait in Alabama a week ago when they thought it might be going to Louisiana. They have had everything ready to go. They have had people deployed near all the possible landfalls. There is no excuse for it not being delivered yet. That is the bottom line.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

80. Has your sister been complaining?

[uppityperson]

94. Come on, you know people in military just follows orders, doesn't dictate to FEMA or other agencies

Now FEMA's slow deliver is the fault of someone in the military? :eyes:

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

110. I always made sure the people that served under me in the military were taken care of.

I always made sure they had everything they needed including food.

David

[uppityperson]

103. Is she one of these 1st responders who are out of food/water?

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/news/texassouthwest/stories/091508dnmetnatguard_.77e093b5.html

300 National Guardsmen out of food and water in Houston

06:23 PM CDT on Sunday, September 14, 2008

Associated Press

HOUSTON – Hundreds of first responders at two staging areas in Texas for Hurricane Ike have run out of food and water.

Congressman John Culberson said Sunday that 300 National Guardsmen, state troopers and other emergency workers are going hungry at a high-school football stadium — and at another staging area on Houston’s west side.

Culberson blamed FEMA for the gaffe and says he tried to contact Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff, who is touring flood-stricken areas of Texas.

Culberson says several buses full of gas are sitting idle at the stadium while crews await instructions. He called on area residents to take food and water to the crews at the stadium — despite official warnings for people to stay off Houston roads.

[Mojorabbit]

114. No

but thanks for asking. This whole thing makes me sad. I feel awful for those people.

[Hannah Bell]

131. so the people they came to help are now supposed to bring THEM food?

funny, if you like black humor.

"He called on area residents to take food and water to the crews at the stadium — despite official warnings for people to stay off Houston roads."

[RoyGBiv]

81. Good to know your priorities ...

This perception of FEMA being set up to come under attack pisses you off to no end.

Frankly, what pisses me off to no end is the knowledge that people die because an organization that only has *one fucking job* that is clearly listed right there in its fucking name can't do it even marginally well. The people who do the actual work for that organization are doing the best they can with what they have, but a colossal failure of management has made absolutely sure that what they have is below the bare minimum they need.

It should piss everyone off that people who put their lives on the line every damn minute can't get a fucking meal because the people that run the organization that is supposed to feed them screwed up ... AGAIN.

[EFerrari]

51. What part of FEDERAL EMERGENCY MANAGEMENT AGENCY

is unclear to you?

[uppityperson]

55. It wears, doesn't it?

[EFerrari]

60. I hope these people never need anything. n/t

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

66. Probably the same part of personal responsibility that's unclear to you.

[EFerrari]

127. Go try to bully someone you can impress, Dave. n/t

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

160. Huh?

We've had discussions in the past that were quite enjoyable. I haven't tried to bully anyone.

David

[SammyWinstonJack]

154. ...

:thumbsup:

[Hannah Bell]

130. they were naughty & must be punished. let them rot in their flooded houses.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

40. I disagree.

FEMA is not responsible for people who disregard mandatory evacuations. A lot of the other stuff yes but not peoples stupidity.

David

[EFerrari]

54. Um, yes they are. This is their mission, aka, why they get a check:

On March 1, 2003, the Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA) became part of the U.S. Department of Homeland Security (DHS). The primary mission of the Federal Emergency Management Agency is to reduce the loss of life and property and protect the Nation from all hazards, including natural disasters, acts of terrorism, and other man-made disasters, by leading and supporting the Nation in a risk-based, comprehensive emergency management system of preparedness, protection, response, recovery, and mitigation.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

63. The attempted to reduce the loss of life by using a mandatory evacuation.

People ignored it. Those people drain the resources because now they have to be rescued. I don't work for them anymore so I really don't care but criticizing them for people ignoring the strongest warning the NWS has ever issued is ridiculous.


David

[EFerrari]

65. It isn't. Because their mission is to handle it.

Not only to help smart people who coorperate. But to handle the situation. Period.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

68. They are...

Guess what people are still going to complain. The evacuees that just left my city complained constantly because the Red Cross wasn't handing out the $1000 gift cards like they did during Katrina. As I have said before it will all shake out and if they screw it up like they did Katrina then we'll find out.

David

[B2G]

69. They are handing it as best they can

And what are you doing other than banging on your computer denigrating those who are out there trying to save lives, passing judgement on their efforts without the slightest clue as to what they're up against?

[EFerrari]

126. Skeletor, is that you? n/t

[kdmorris]

112. Sorry, but that was NOT the strongest warning the NWS

You should have seen the one they issued for Katrina. Ike's didn't compare. Sorry, but it didn't.

Edited to add the actual warning for Katrina:
URGENT - WEATHER MESSAGE
NATIONAL WEATHER SERVICE NEW ORLEANS LA
1011 AM CDT SUN AUG 28 2005

...DEVASTATING DAMAGE EXPECTED...

.HURRICANE KATRINA...A MOST POWERFUL HURRICANE WITH UNPRECEDENTED
STRENGTH...RIVALING THE INTENSITY OF HURRICANE CAMILLE OF 1969.

MOST OF THE AREA WILL BE UNINHABITABLE FOR WEEKS...PERHAPS LONGER. AT
LEAST ONE HALF OF WELL CONSTRUCTED HOMES WILL HAVE ROOF AND WALL
FAILURE. ALL GABLED ROOFS WILL FAIL...LEAVING THOSE HOMES SEVERELY
DAMAGED OR DESTROYED.

THE MAJORITY OF INDUSTRIAL BUILDINGS WILL BECOME NON FUNCTIONAL.
PARTIAL TO COMPLETE WALL AND ROOF FAILURE IS EXPECTED. ALL WOOD
FRAMED LOW RISING APARTMENT BUILDINGS WILL BE DESTROYED. CONCRETE
BLOCK LOW RISE APARTMENTS WILL SUSTAIN MAJOR DAMAGE...INCLUDING SOME
WALL AND ROOF FAILURE.

HIGH RISE OFFICE AND APARTMENT BUILDINGS WILL SWAY DANGEROUSLY...A
FEW TO THE POINT OF TOTAL COLLAPSE. ALL WINDOWS WILL BLOW OUT.

AIRBORNE DEBRIS WILL BE WIDESPREAD...AND MAY INCLUDE HEAVY ITEMS SUCH
AS HOUSEHOLD APPLIANCES AND EVEN LIGHT VEHICLES. SPORT UTILITY
VEHICLES AND LIGHT TRUCKS WILL BE MOVED. THE BLOWN DEBRIS WILL CREATE
ADDITIONAL DESTRUCTION. PERSONS...PETS...AND LIVESTOCK EXPOSED TO THE
WINDS WILL FACE CERTAIN DEATH IF STRUCK.

POWER OUTAGES WILL LAST FOR WEEKS...AS MOST POWER POLES WILL BE DOWN
AND TRANSFORMERS DESTROYED. WATER SHORTAGES WILL MAKE HUMAN SUFFERING
INCREDIBLE BY MODERN STANDARDS.

THE VAST MAJORITY OF NATIVE TREES WILL BE SNAPPED OR UPROOTED. ONLY
THE HEARTIEST WILL REMAIN STANDING...BUT BE TOTALLY DEFOLIATED. FEW
CROPS WILL REMAIN. LIVESTOCK LEFT EXPOSED TO THE WINDS WILL BE
KILLED.

AN INLAND HURRICANE WIND WARNING IS ISSUED WHEN SUSTAINED WINDS NEAR
HURRICANE FORCE...OR FREQUENT GUSTS AT OR ABOVE HURRICANE FORCE...ARE
CERTAIN WITHIN THE NEXT 12 TO 24 HOURS.

ONCE TROPICAL STORM AND HURRICANE FORCE WINDS ONSET...DO NOT VENTURE
OUTSIDE!

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

113. If you stay you face certain death.

That's what they said with Ike. They didn't say that at Katrina.

David

[kdmorris]

115. I added the actual verbiage.

PERSONS...PETS...AND LIVESTOCK EXPOSED TO THE
WINDS WILL FACE CERTAIN DEATH IF STRUCK.

[tkmorris]

119. *crickets*

I think Danger Dave has left the building.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

120. No need to respond the wording for Katrina was similar.

Not a serious as for Ike very similar though.

David

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

123. crickets

See how stupid that is?

David

[tkmorris]

139. It was MORE serious than Ike

And the NHC knew it, and they said so in their advisories. I'm a hurricane nut, don't even try to bullshit me. You are just plain wrong, and you lack the honor to admit it sir. Danger Dave you remain. Comical, and not to be taken seriously.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

158. I've read both.

Ike's was stronger. Katrina's warning about deaths had more qualifiers. Ike's was that if you were in a single family dwelling you faced certain death. I'll gladly admit when I'm wrong. You of all people don't need to lecture anyone about honor.

David

[LooseWilly]

136. I personally think Ike's warning was stronger.

the following was an excerpt from NWS warning for Galveston:

ALL NEIGHBORHOODS...AND POSSIBLY ENTIRE COASTAL COMMUNITIES...
WILL BE INUNDATED DURING THE PERIOD OF PEAK STORM TIDE. PERSONS
NOT HEEDING EVACUATION ORDERS IN SINGLE FAMILY ONE OR TWO STORY
HOMES WILL FACE CERTAIN DEATH. MANY RESIDENCES OF AVERAGE
CONSTRUCTION DIRECTLY ON THE COAST WILL BE DESTROYED. WIDESPREAD
AND DEVASTATING PERSONAL PROPERTY DAMAGE IS LIKELY ELSEWHERE.
VEHICLES LEFT BEHIND WILL LIKELY BE SWEPT AWAY. NUMEROUS ROADS
WILL BE SWAMPED...SOME MAY BE WASHED AWAY BY THE WATER. ENTIRE
FLOOD PRONE COASTAL COMMUNITIES WILL BE CUTOFF. WATER LEVELS MAY
EXCEED 9 FEET FOR MORE THAN A MILE INLAND. COASTAL RESIDENTS IN
MULTI-STORY FACILITIES RISK BEING CUTOFF. CONDITIONS WILL BE
WORSENED BY BATTERING WAVES. SUCH WAVES WILL EXACERBATE PROPERTY
DAMAGE...WITH MASSIVE DESTRUCTION OF HOMES...INCLUDING THOSE OF
BLOCK CONSTRUCTION. DAMAGE FROM BEACH EROSION COULD TAKE YEARS TO
REPAIR.

the part: PERSONS
NOT HEEDING EVACUATION ORDERS IN SINGLE FAMILY ONE OR TWO STORY
HOMES WILL FACE CERTAIN DEATH.
in particular is stronger than the warnings about livestock exposed to winds in the Katrina warning you posted.

[kdmorris]

157. Did you even read the whole thing?

It said:

PERSONS...PETS...AND LIVESTOCK EXPOSED TO THE
WINDS WILL FACE CERTAIN DEATH IF STRUCK

[malaise]

144. Rubbish

Lots of people tried to leave the Bolivar peninsula early on Friday morning and the road was under water. Some were plucked out of the water by helicopters. There were people who worked on late shifts Thursday and tried to escape early Friday. There were others who needed assisted care to leave because of age, illness, etc.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

175. Not the people we are discussing.

Again, I am talking about people who have the money, means and capability to leave and decide not too.

David

[Mojorabbit]

77. This shows me you know

nothing about FEMA's mission.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

79. I guess you being related to someone makes you an expert.

Give me a break.

David

[Mojorabbit]

84. As someone who was responsible for

hospital disasters as a nurse I have a little knowledge about the subject. As someone who gets regular reports about what the set up is for the next oncoming disaster I have a lot of information. I am perfectly capable of forming an opinion. Your statement was out and out false which does not require me to even have to waste my time to formulate an opinion on it.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

85. That's just silly.

To say that FEMA is responsible for the people that ignored mandatory evacuations is just stupid. They will be rescued eventually but if they die or died it's not FEMAs fault. I worked for FEMA, I have responded and served in at least 5 different federally declared disaster areas including 4 hurricanes, I have worked in several shelters of hurricane evacuees and one of the main functions of my job is coordination with our state emergency management agency. What hospital disasters were you involved in?

David

[uppityperson]

95. Well, THAT explains a lot. Thanks for posting that. You worked for FEMA.

Done with you.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

107. Yes I went to peoples homes after a disaster and assessed the damage.

I worked 16 hours a day so people could get on their feet again. I guess that makes me a real scumbag. You really ought to be ashamed.

David

[Name removed]

111. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

116. So disagreeing with you makes me a scumbag.

If you thought that I think you'd be a fascist. I think people refusing to follow mandatory evacuations unnecessarily strain the rescue services that are available. FEMA should be responsible for the people that can't leave first and foremost and not be blamed when the people who would not leave are pissed off because they aren't rescued within 5 minutes. If my thinking that FEMA's first responsibility is to those who unable to help themselves makes me a scumbag then you have a very warped sense of reality.

David

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

121. crickets

[tkmorris]

140. You didn't address anything I said

And besides, YOU are the one who keeps referring to yourself as a scumbag. I didn't introduce the word friend, you did. All I am saying is that all of the strawmen you keep throwing up don't have anything to with why people find your ideas objectionable. The reasons people don't like what you are saying (i.e., the reasons you refer to YOURSELF as a scumbag, excellent choice of words by the way), are far different than the reasons you keep throwing out there. It has a great deal more to do with your utter lack of empathy for your fellow human being.

Alert that Danger Dave.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

162. What did you say that needs to be addressed?

You called me a scumbag in the deleted post you just don't have the honor to admit it.

David

[Lars39]

98. Your attitude is disgraceful.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

109. Do you still beat your dog?

[Mojorabbit]

108. It is a clusterfuck again.

http://abclocal.go.com/ktrk/video?id=6391294

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

118. Like I said it will come out either way.

[Hannah Bell]

129. no, they were bad & didn't mind! let them die.

[stillcool]

22. Oh boy...I can only imagine..

what's going on in Texas, cause I sure haven't seen any news that belies the fact that things are not well. I am really surprised at the callousness of so many people here, although I should not be. Why do people assume to know what they can not know?

[B2G]

27. Hey brainiac

Have you seen the flyover footage? Have you seen the devastation? These are ISLANDS we're talking about. Major portions of them are inaccessable by anything other than helicopters. The roads are GONE!

It amazes me that some here think that the government can just snap their fingers and make everything magically better, logistic be dammned.

Unreal.

[EFerrari]

34. No, we're talking about Houston and Galveston

and access to Galveston was restored this morning.

[uppityperson]

35. I expect them to be prepared with food/water for first responders.

They knew Ike was big and responders would be needed. People doing search and rescue needn't spend time finding and preparing food/water. My taxes go to pay FEMA to provide for them so they can do their work.

Your argument is as silly as the ones that say "what should mrbush have done to turn aside Katrina". Unreal.

[Bluebear]

74. .

[uppityperson]

96. !

[Bluebear]

73. I thought you were "done here"

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=3898635#3899300

:hi:

[uppityperson]

97. Thanks for that. Too funny but not quite a WaltStarr.

[SammyWinstonJack]

155. ...

:evilgrin:

[RoyGBiv]

82. Delete

Not worth it.

[sudopod]

152. Sure, but it's not unreasonable to assume

that they could feed the National Guard the day after. In Texas.

It isn't like it's The Iraq or something.

[IamyourTVandIownyou]

41. LOCAL HOUSTON COVERAGE LINK

http://flhurricane.com/ikecoverage.html

[tannybogus]

47. Bushco lecturing people:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

In 1989 after Hugo hit, Senator Fritz Hollings called FEMA "a sorry bunch of bureaucratic jackasses." Sound familiar.
Clinton put James Lee Witt in charge. He actually had experience in handling emergencies and FEMA worked for a while.
Exit Clinton. Enter BushII. FUBAR! If FEMA came doen here again to help, there are places where people might just shoot them.

[Caria]

48. Fema policy against providing aid w/in 72 hours?

Is it really FEMA policy to NOT give people food or water for 3 days? "Bahamonde said FEMA asks residents in storm-devastated communities to be "self-sufficient" for the first 72 hours." http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/front/6000349.html

Isn't that the time period during which people are most likely to die?

[uppityperson]

50. Recommended you have food/water for 72 hours. BUT,

what if it gets washed away? Or your house collapses? I don't know that it policy to not give food/water within 3 days, but they want as many people to be as self sufficient as possible.

[EFerrari]

57. Or if you're bedridden or a child or in a wheelchair?

What is the mfing matter with people around here, anyway.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

71. Then you should have taken one of the many, many ambulances to a special shelter.

[EFerrari]

125. You mean like this special ambulance?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x3996995

You want to blame the victims, go talk to somebody else. No sale here.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

161. Why do I have to keep repeating myself?

She should have been a top priority both pre and post as I have previously said. People who refused to leave and then demand to be rescued strain the services available to the poor and elderly who don't have the means. The people who had the means to leave, didn't and then had to be rescued are the only people I have blamed for anything. They strain rescue resources unnecessarily.

David

[EFerrari]

165. See your own post above.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=4000253&mesg_id=4000673

There is no unnecessary rescue of human life. If those in charge of evacuation want things to go more smoothly and want more people to feel good about going, if they want a better allocation of limited resources, they need to come up with a freakin' better plan than they did last time, when most of the deaths occurred during the evacuation and people wound up in the freakin' hospital for all kinds of problems including sunstroke and dehydration because there was gridlock on the highways.

Personal responsiblity, my granny. What you're doing is shifting blame to people who can't defend themselves and who had little say in the screwed up planning for this event.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

168. That's why they didn't evacuate Houston.

Many of rescues would have been uneccessary if the people who had the means to evacuate had evacuated, then the recuers could concentrate on the people that weren't able to evacuate, the people that truly can't defend themselves. That's the only point I've been trying to make.

David

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

171. In Ike's wake, holdouts complicate rescues

Hopefully this will help. Still not an excuse for failures to get people out like the woman in your story.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/csm/20080915/ts_csm/aike

David

[B2G]

58. There isn't a policy that says that

You're supposed to be prepared to be self sufficient for 72 hours because in a situation like this, it's very likely it will take them that long to get to you. In situations like this, they said a week.

[tkmorris]

117. I don't think it really means that

The recommendation that people be prepared for at least 72 hours is because even under the best of circumstances some people must expect help to take that long to get to them. It's not that they WON'T provide help in the first 72 hours, just that it can take that long to get to people.

Having said that, I think the management at the top is just bloody awful.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

122. Wow we agree on something.

I think you called me a scumbag for expressing a similar view. I agree with you 100% in regards to this post.

David

[tkmorris]

142. No, you called YOURSELF a scumbag

Albeit sarcastically. I merely cheerfully agreed with you, just for a different reason.

Do you get it now?

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

163. Try a reading comprehension course and get back to me.

[EFerrari]

128. They remembered to censor the press but not to feed the 1st responders.

[tkmorris]

143. I don't disagree. You are exactly correct.

[screembloodymurder]

145. Fox News will be embedded so that we can get a fair and balanced picture.

I won't criticize FEMA but not letting reporters in sucks.

[2Design]

70. yes - they are not letting the media in saying it is for their safety

they did this in Katrina - the best reporting we got were in those first days before the government block help and supplies from getting to the people

[TBF]

87. FEMA and the national guard have been in Houston since at least

last Wed. They are deliberately keeping press away from what is going on.

[bertman]

88. Isn't FEMA supposed to be coordinating this effort with the other elements of our government and

state governments? Like Air National Guard, Army National Guard and Reserve units, Coast Guard, Marine Corps (do they have a reserve component?).

Just looking at a map of the south and southcentral U.S. and tracking the hurricane's path, it would seem that someone in a COMMAND capacity could have coordinated having every helicopter in the region ready to deploy to the disaster zone as soon as the storm passed. We have been told that FEMA has stockpiles of food and supplies in the contiguous area. Do you think they might have been stockpiled somewhere that helicopters such as Chinooks and Sea Stallions and other big-ass cargo choppers could get to them and lift them in to the affected areas. Meanwhile, regular old Hueys and Apaches and every other little observation chopper available could have been ferrying in emergency personnel such as first responders and even National Guard troops.

I know that the obvious response to this is that our National Guard units are in Iraq and Afghanistan, but there are still units available stateside for this type of operation.

The Federal Emergency Management Administration is supposed to be able to do all of this. It is their job. I hope they're up for it this time.

[RB TexLa]

89. Neither Republicans or Democrats cared if anything was done or if anything is ever done for La.

Americans have never and will never care.

[KeepItReal]

100. LA has a fake Dem mayor of N.O. and a GOP Governor now

We were and are intrinsically screwed.

Clarence Ray Nagin was a GOP exec of Cox Communications until he became a Democrat to run for Mayor of N.O.

[rainbow4321]

91. New report: No electricity for **30 days**

No electricity = no water.

"Next of KIN issues on Boliver, we can't talk about it right now"


Looter: Put in the local jail under a $100,000 bail.

[readmoreoften]

134. Galveston is majority white? Only if you count latino/a as white.

The racial makeup of the city was 58.66% White, 25.49% Black or African American, 0.42% Native American, 3.21% Asian, 0.07% Pacific Islander, 9.73% from other races, and 2.41% from two or more races. 25.77% of the population were Hispanic or Latino of any race.

[bread_and_roses]

146. I always wonder how the hell the poor are supposed to "stock up"

I love how there are people in this thread damning those who don't "stock up" for disasters. How do people living week to week or on food stamps "stock up?" I can't remember if one can buy bottled water or ice with food stamps, but I know for sure you can't buy toilet paper, batteries, any other non-consumables. Or pet food. Or diapers.

How is someone scrabbling along week to week for gas and groceries supposed to deal with an unexpected need for a full tank of gas?

But I guess we should just let them starve and die because they didn't "stock up?" Goddess, every day I become more disgusted at what thirty years of right-wing, neo-con/neo-lib indoctrination has done to my fellow citizens attitude toward our common humanity and our ability to see through the bootstrap/frontier model of "every is an island."

[sudopod]

153. This. nt

[SammyWinstonJack]

156. Thank you!

[EFerrari]

164. Bingo! And people who run around blaming others are not

practicing personal responsibility. Adults who take responsibility for adult life don't shift blame, they solve problems.

[geomon666]

170. I live off of food stamps and I stocked up this season.

Of course I don't have a family to feed. I just have myself. The truth is people who live in hurricane prone areas should be ready every year, even before hurricane season starts.

That's not to say people shouldn't be getting help who clearly need it just because they were caught unprepared. That's just cruel and stupid.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

172. The poor, elderly, sick and those unable to evacuate should be the highest priority.

Unfortunately sometimes they are the most resistant to leave. They are truly leaving all that they have, unlike the rich guy who needs helping moving his 4 cars.

David

[Stuart G]

149. Will the Texas Cover Up...anger the people in Texas so much that...

they will vote Democratic in November??? Now that would be a sight to see...............:bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce:

[uppityperson]

173. Last word, last word!

though I doubt it since ignored continues to answer.Oh well. Last word!