I told you so

[nadinbrzezinski]

how many times I wrote on this board that the fundamentals of 1929 were back in place?

How many times I was laughed at by the usual suspects?

Well, I told you so.

Those of us who choose to read a damn book or two, and can grasp math... and basic economics knew that this is exactly what was going to happen

So it happened today...

September 14, 2008 will be OUR generation's black monday

Enjoy

[graywarrior]

1. Thank you republicans.

[nadinbrzezinski]

2. And exactly for the same reasons

but fair is fair... our side also has its hand in this cookie jar

The early walls put in place after 1929 were removed by Clinton.

Glass Steegal Act

[Name removed]

4. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[graywarrior]

9. Damn them all to hell.

[Waiting For Everyman]

21. And those "both guilty" statements enable it.

No, there is a party at fault. Deregulation? 1% economy?

[nadinbrzezinski]

22. Glass Stigman act (SP) was critical in keeping

finantials from going where they went

It was taken off by Clinton...

We may argue if he could have overcome the house and senate, but that is reality

Conservative economic theory led to this... and we have chicago school believers in both parties

now this should change the conversation, I hope, but that is another story

[Waiting For Everyman]

33. It was snuck through by Gramm at the 11th hour into an 11,000 pg. appropriation before Christmas.

BEFORE Clinton was sworn in. So b/c Chinton didn't catch it, during the first few days he's in office, HE'S to blame? Bullshit. Gramm planned that from the prior summer until that moment, when nobody was left in Congress.

Gramm's not only a thief, he's a sneak and a liar.

[nadinbrzezinski]

35. Did he sign it? Or are we going to use Bush's standard of the buck never

stopping at the WH desk just because he is a democrat?

Sorry if I prefer Truman's standard

[Waiting For Everyman]

36. Is the author and planner more guilty than the inadvertent signer?

[nadinbrzezinski]

37. As I said, he signed it

just like many of our folks going for the USPA without readying the damn thing

Stop passing the buck

[Waiting For Everyman]

43. Get your facts straight.

I didn't get interested in this today.

[nadinbrzezinski]

47. I have not gonna give folks a pass

sorry

Just because they have a letter behind their name

Never been into sports, or sports mentality

[magellan]

51. Inadvertent signer?!

Are you actually claiming that Clinton signed a bill into law not knowing what he was signing, and defending that?

My God, it's no wonder we're so screwed.

[Waiting For Everyman]

53. What would YOU bet on finding a few pgs. out of 11,000 your first days in office?

I'll pick on Bill Clinton for free trade, but this one was all GRAMM'S.

At least pick the right target.

Nevermind. Do your own research.

[magellan]

57. Sorry, I wouldn't sign anything into law as President

...without knowing precisely what the damn bill contains. If the bills are too fucking big to know what's in them, it's irresponsible to sign them. Common sense 101. Kind of important when running a FUCKING COUNTRY.

[Hannah Bell]

59. he signed it. he knew what he was signing. that's why he had staff.

[MadHound]

63. Umm, excuse me, but get your shit straight and stop spreading BS lies trying to protect Clinton

The Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act(the legislation that shredded a large part of the Glas Steagall Act) was passed in 1999, not shortly after Clinton took office. It wasn't "right before Christmas, it was signed into law on Nov. 11, 1999. And it wasn't part of any appropriation bill, it was a stand alone bill.

So yes, Clinton is just as guilty as the rest of the corporate whores up on Capital Hill.

[leftchick]

93. bullshit! clinton knew exactly what he was doing

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/wallstreet/weill/demise.html

1998-1999


Intense new lobbying effort to repeal Glass-Steagall


Following the merger announcement on April 6, 1998, Weill immediately plunges into a public-relations and lobbying campaign for the repeal of Glass-Steagall and passage of new financial services legislation (what becomes the Financial Services Modernization Act of 1999). One week before the Citibank-Travelers deal was announced, Congress had shelved its latest effort to repeal Glass-Steagall. Weill cranks up a new effort to revive bill.

Weill and Reed have to act quickly for both business and political reasons. Fears that the necessary regulatory changes would not happen in time had caused the share prices of both companies to fall. The House Republican leadership indicates that it wants to enact the measure in the current session of Congress. While the Clinton administration generally supported Glass-Steagall "modernization," but there are concerns that mid-term elections in the fall could bring in Democrats less sympathetic to changing the laws.

In May 1998, the House passes legislation by a vote of 214 to 213 that allows for the merging of banks, securities firms, and insurance companies into huge financial conglomerates. And in September, the Senate Banking Committee votes 16-2 to approve a compromise bank overhaul bill. Despite this new momentum, Congress is yet again unable to pass final legislation before the end of its session.

As the push for new legislation heats up, lobbyists quip that raising the issue of financial modernization really signals the start of a fresh round of political fund-raising. Indeed, in the 1997-98 election cycle, the finance, insurance, and real estate industries (known as the FIRE sector), spends more than $200 million on lobbying and makes more than $150 million in political donations. Campaign contributions are targeted to members of Congressional banking committees and other committees with direct jurisdiction over financial services legislation.


Oct.-Nov. 1999


Congress passes Financial Services Modernization Act


After 12 attempts in 25 years, Congress finally repeals Glass-Steagall, rewarding financial companies for more than 20 years and $300 million worth of lobbying efforts. Supporters hail the change as the long-overdue demise of a Depression-era relic.

On Oct. 21, with the House-Senate conference committee deadlocked after marathon negotiations, the main sticking point is partisan bickering over the bill's effect on the Community Reinvestment Act, which sets rules for lending to poor communities. Sandy Weill calls President Clinton in the evening to try to break the deadlock after Senator Phil Gramm, chairman of the Banking Committee, warned Citigroup lobbyist Roger Levy that Weill has to get White House moving on the bill or he would shut down the House-Senate conference. Serious negotiations resume, and a deal is announced at 2:45 a.m. on Oct. 22. Whether Weill made any difference in precipitating a deal is unclear.

On Oct. 22, Weill and John Reed issue a statement congratulating Congress and President Clinton, including 19 administration officials and lawmakers by name. The House and Senate approve a final version of the bill on Nov. 4, and Clinton signs it into law later that month.

Just days after the administration (including the Treasury Department) agrees to support the repeal, Treasury Secretary Robert Rubin, the former co-chairman of a major Wall Street investment bank, Goldman Sachs, raises eyebrows by accepting a top job at Citigroup as Weill's chief lieutenant. The previous year, Weill had called Secretary Rubin to give him advance notice of the upcoming merger announcement. When Weill told Rubin he had some important news, the secretary reportedly quipped, "You're buying the government?"

[Two Americas]

25. that's funny

If we don't talk about what is happening, then it won't be happening. Those who observe what is happening and speak about it are the ones actually causing it.

It is the fault of the arsonists that the whole town is on fire, and the firefighters who never showed up are completely blameless. Why? Because they are the firefighters! - see the "F" after their names? - and "firefighters are better than arsonists!" Keep supporting them, and don't ever utter one word of criticism, because "at least they are better than the arsonists!"

[Waiting For Everyman]

34. Maybe go after those who set 9 out of 10 fires first.

[Two Americas]

49. right

That is what I am suggesting. Go after the arsonists. Since we have a representative democracy, that means demanding that our representatives go after them rather than playing footsie with them and making up excuses. That is how it works.

[Cleita]

42. Which is why I was not a Hillary Clinton supporter or even an Obama supporter in the primaries..

She did not show me where she differed from her husband on economic policies.

[Duer 157099]

3. Yes. Except Sept 15 = Monday n/t

[NNN0LHI]

5. Bu ... bu .. but Bush said to go shopping?

[MercutioATC]

6. A crash very well may be coming, but 9/15 will not be another Black Monday.

Hell, we won't get anywhere near the stops.

Down a little over 350 by the end of the session is my bet.

[HereSince1628]

11. I'd not be surprised if it doesn't START 350 down tomorrow.

And I have no idea how tomorrow will end.

I do know that one day isn't the end of the story unless you happen to die on that day.

[nadinbrzezinski]

14. 'xactly,the worst of 1929 didn't take place until 1931-32

[MercutioATC]

18. That sounds about right...but the Merrill Lynch deal and Lehman going under

should just about balance each other. We'll see some swings, but I think we're going to close right about where we open.

[Hannah Bell]

60. it's down 305 NOW, in special pre-market trading, for special people.

http://money.cnn.com/data/premarket/

[justiceischeap]

7. But it's Sunday... I'm confused. *Looks around for explanation*

joke

[Hannah Bell]

61. special pre-market session:

http://money.cnn.com/data/premarket/

[Odin2005]

8. I knew this was comming for about a year now, ever since I read...

The Great Depression: America, 1929-1941, written by Keynesian economist Robert McElvaine about 20 years ago. He staunchly defends the "too much wealth at the top" theory of the Great Depression. The similarities between now and the period of 1929-1933 are shockingly freaky. :scared:

Andrew Mellon = Allen Green$pan.

[nadinbrzezinski]

10. I know but still some folks refuse to see that this is BAD

and I hope not as bad as 1929

We will be in the shits with a 1950s style recession

Some historians would like to call that one a depression... it was bad enough

[girl gone mad]

12. I was right there with you..

arguing with asparagus.. ;)

[nadinbrzezinski]

13. It feels shitty to be right, doesn't it?

the only bright side... the house of cards is falling BEFORE the election.

Now only if the actual news tries to explain this to joe and jane six pack

They will be pissed, once they get it

Last time it created a whole generation of Democrats

[girl gone mad]

17. Well, we need to seize the moment.

Clinton laid it on the table in his convention speech. This is conservative economic policies in action.

[girl gone mad]

56. do you remember asparagus, btw?

I wonder if he ever listened to us.

I felt a little bad for him. He was drunk on the kool-aid.

[nadinbrzezinski]

86. There are folks still drinking it, look down thread

[roamer65]

15. A slow moving financial streamroller moves on, and on, and on...

All the makings of very large DEPRESSION.

AIG and WaMu are next folks.

[nadinbrzezinski]

19. At least Merrill is out of danger for now

for personal reasons I am a tad relieved

[a la izquierda]

95. Ditto. My dad works for them. I'd prefer he not lose his job. N/T

[bobthedrummer]

16. Yep, I also was with you and even spoke of a destabilization program targeting US from both

internal and external forces-certainly not "market" forces.

I still hold to that view nadinbrzezinski. There's a lot going on.

[nadinbrzezinski]

20. Well chicago school requires it

which means... if McCain manages to steal it... you can count on Chile... the early years

Now that literally sends shivers down my spine

[malaise]

68. Bingo

Shock Doctrine, Shock Therapy, expect shocks!!

[neverforget]

23. Those who don't study the past are condemned to repeat it.

[nadinbrzezinski]

24. McCain now equals hoover...

and my fear is... we do need a distraction right now

USA, USA, USA....

I wonder if they will slip the dogs of war... that will end the job anyhow

[mzmolly]

26. What were the fundamentals?

I'm not well versed in the history and I appreciate learning more. Thanks N.

[nadinbrzezinski]

27. Cliffs notes

During the 1920s we saw a period where credit became very easy to get

Many folks got into houses they could not afford

Banks got a bunch of bad loans

In the end the system collapsed because banks were investing in many markets that they should not, due to the extreme risk

Oh and yes, wealth got hyperconcentrated in the hands of a few, and of course the mantra of the RNC at the time was that this would go down to the masses (what reagan later would call trickle down)

If this sounds familiar... as many of the barriers that were put in place after 1929 were removed starting in the 1990s, and gone for broke after junior took over

[mzmolly]

28. Not to mention job losses

I suppose?

I knew that deregulation played a role in the current crisis, and that the banks were not insured pre-depression era but not much beyond that...

Thanks for the info.

[nadinbrzezinski]

29. You welcome, it is going to get ugly

some analysts are even talking of a ten year world wide depression

The dollar should take it in the shitter as well, and if the feds start printing money like there is no tomorrow

Inflation will come to haunt us

[mzmolly]

30. It's amazing how much the world economy depends upon the US?

Goodness. How do we climb out of this mess? Whoever wins the Presidency has a monumental task ahead and we know one of the men in the running, isn't capable of fixing the problem. :(

[nadinbrzezinski]

32. If china went down to the same level same problem

or the EU

I doubt the US will be a leading economy after this though, unless we rebuild the economy

Hell, we need to bring factories back... and invest in infrastructure, in massive ways

This is Keynsian (what FDR did) at the core. but at the moment there are no winners

We may see the end of globalization though

[mzmolly]

46. Heck yes!

I'm a bit of a protectionist at heart, I admit. I want to strengthen labor unions, bring back manufacturing jobs as you note, and reinvigorate the economy by investing in infrastructure and alternative energy etc... But, I'm just a mid-western housewife, what the hell do I know? LOL

[Odin2005]

31. BINGO!!! n/t.

[Dover]

52. Bank consolidation is part of the plan.

Was reading a quote from someone in the heirarchy of banking...
can't recall who right now, but possibly from world bank or some other global economic planner.

Anyway, he suggested that the numbers of banks needed to be whittled down. And indeed that is
what is being done here and globally through acquisitions, mergers and bankruptcy. Here's just a few stories:

European banks: The silent (r)evolution

Published: Wednesday 21 May 2008
Jan Schildbach, Deutsche Bank Research

Despite the impact of recent global financial turmoil on European banks, the structure of the banking industry in Europe that has been built up over the last decade will secure its future, argues Jan Schildbach in an April research paper for Deutsche Bank Research.

Consolidation has led to bigger banks with higher market shares, enabling them to take advantage of economies of scale, says Schildbach. The rapid internationalisation of European banks has enabled poorly performing domestic banks to seek new sources of growth within Europe and the USA as well as other emerging markets, he adds....

http://www.euractiv.com/en/euro/european-banks-silent-revolution/article-172575


And Germany is discussing it too, apparently:
http://www.emeraldinsight.com/Insight/ViewContentServlet?Filename=Published/EmeraldFullTextArticle/Articles/3180240203.html


The Fed:
http://www.kansascityfed.org/SpeechBio/Hoenig9-15-06.pdf


And Bernanke - Reducing Systemic Risk
http://72.14.205.104/search?q=cache:ZE8b9v8GPUwJ:www.bis.org/review/r080826a.pdf+reducing+the+number+of+banks&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=19&gl=us


The method to the madness of consolidation (older book but still in practice)
http://books.google.com/books?id=Y-gPlxERTw4C&pg=PA12&lpg=PA12&dq=reduction+in+the+number+of+banks&source=web&ots=Ogt9LYOlfm&sig=5ew8LigmKo7Ah9tNTJmEP_C3aAE&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=1&ct=result



And an interesting bibliography on this page
http://ideas.repec.org/p/lev/levppb/69.html

[hfojvt]

55. except that's not what happened in 1929

In 1929 it was the stock market itself that was the credit bubble. People buying stocks on margin and making money as long as the market kept going up and up. And the FED reacted poorly to the credit crunch, acting like a bank instead of a national bank. The severe drought probably did not help either since agriculture is a key component of real wealth in the economy. Lawrence Goodwyn in "The populist moment" wrote that several crashes in the 19th century were caused by the financial system being unable to handle the fall harvest.

[Hannah Bell]

58. actually, it was part of it. it's when the "i've got some swampland in florida i could sell"

joke entered the language.

1920's Florida land boom...


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Florida_land_boom_of_the_1920s

[DemoTex]

72. Read Thomas Wolfe's "You Can't Go Home Again."

It drips with Wolfe's contempt for his mother, and others, and their rampant debt-levered real estate speculation in the months leading up to the first Great Depression.

[1]

38. how does that song go? "whoopie! we're all going to die!"

yay!

[nadinbrzezinski]

39. You do understand what happened tonight, don't you?

you do understand what is happening, don't you?

[1]

41. right... "I" don't understand what is happening. how could i not? you "told me so!"

good luck with that...

[nadinbrzezinski]

44. You are the one with the cavalier attitude, not me

I have never said anywhere we are all going to die

But carry on

[1]

48. but we are nad, and you get a particular glee from this...

yay!

[nadinbrzezinski]

50. If you say so

whatever...

[cali]

73. fascinating really. there are those who are everybit as much

end-timers as the xians. it's completely different of course, cloaked in a far more sophisticated garb, but has some startling similarities.

[noel711]

69. "And it's One Two Three, what are we fightin' for?

Don't ask me coz I don't give a damn,
next stop is Viet Nam..."

[Cleita]

40. The problem isn't our board but the people who saw this coming and

could have done something about it, but didn't. We couldn't do anything except to try to hang on to our jobs, our savings and any other asset we had.

[nadinbrzezinski]

45. Many of them didn't believe it was going to go there

they are even more shocked than we are... oh wait, I am going, oh well, hate to be right

[OneGrassRoot]

65. Do you mean those in the upper levels of government, including...

dems?

[nadinbrzezinski]

75. Willful ignorance is a wonderful thing... I know

[OneGrassRoot]

100. I'm sorry, I was asking a serious question...

I am a conspiracy theorist at heart and believe all are involved and nothing happens by chance...lol...but I wanted to be sure I understood what you were saying here.

Are you saying the top-level dems are willfully ignorant? Or was that directed at me? LOLOL

Thanks. :)

[nadinbrzezinski]

Some of our leaders are willfully ignorant

some of our leaders are conservative with the economy

And they will do things that make you scratch head

[nadinbrzezinski]

101. Some of our leaders are willfully ignorant

some of our leaders are conservative with the economy

And they will do things that make you scratch head

[Egnever]

54. Thats a common theme with you

course you are always off the mark but you sure love to blow that horn.

[TheWatcher]

62. Actually she really isn't off the mark.

Don't mistake wilfull ignorance for fallibility of the message or messenger.

As for her blowing the horn, well, for those of you who keep your hands buried in the sand or other dark places, it is merely so that you might actually HEAR what's really going on in the world around you, despite the fact you probably won't listen.

But you're right. Nothing is real, nothing exists, and everything is fine. Reality is whatever makes you comfortable.

We now return you to your regular, natural state:

[nadinbrzezinski]

77. She keeps taking the damn pill, doesn't she?

Now lets hope they don't go Chicago on all of us... or we are REALLY screwn.

[Egnever]

83. lol tool

[Egnever]

81. Not looking like much of a black monday is it?

Look its clear for everyone to see the economy is headed for serious corrections.

This poster however contributes nothing but I told you so's over and over on subjects that are like screaming the sky is blue I told you so!

Obviously the fallout today while not pretty is well within the expected limits and perhaps even less severe than expected . So this posters "I told you so" was full of it. Its certainly not turning out to be our darkest black Monday is it?

There's still a lot of fall out in our future but this poster is a tool.

He/she can take their condescension and stick it in their continuously off the mark butt.

[seemslikeadream]

64. WTF?

[HughBeaumont]

66. Dow futures are already down 366.

Oil's plunging like a brick.

Gonna be a hell of a day, fer sure.

[Obamanaut]

67. This wording seems awfully supercilious, don't you think? Maybe

even a bit snooty.

"...Those of us who choose to read a damn book or two, and can grasp math..."

[nadinbrzezinski]

74. Sorry, professional hazard.. as a trained historian.

snooty, well, of course. In a country that hates intellectuals, you are correct... absolutely

And I stand by it

When in college a kid asked, as a joke we hope... how do you know so much

My answer

I read.

My prof chuckled, and a couple other students laughed.

He missed it

[Obamanaut]

98. I don't think the country hates intellectuals. I think people dislike phonies.

I am not a “trained historian.” I do not write things down in chronological order. I do know some smart people, none of whom are snooty just by virtue of whatever it is they do for a living, and most have REAL jobs. One is a neurosurgeon, there is a mason (bricklayer), a truck driver, a retired highway patrol trooper (currently police chief in a small town) and others - met them as fellow motorcyclists. All have some college (at least one, maybe more, finished.) BTW, what constructive work does a trained historian do, really?

I reread most of this thread. Here are some of the examples one would NOT expect to find from a supercilious poster, one who knows a lot because of reading.

I’ll now add you to my ignore list. Have a nice day.


“…finantials…”

“…I have not gonna…”

“…without readying the damn thing…”

“…This is Keynsian…”

[LanternWaste]

70. Then we can safely assume

Then we can safely assume there will be an exponential increase in the number of margin calls on Monday which will break the back of the majority of investors?

[nadinbrzezinski]

76. So far that hasn't happened... but they are calling for another

drop in rates

So far we can breath a little easier

[LanternWaste]

91. I would imagine that if...

I would imagine that if today is a replay of the '29 crash, unmet margin calls would be the news of the day or we see an unwillingness by the Federal Reserve System to help banks avoid runs on their deposits.

[nadinbrzezinski]

102. The replay of the 29 crash has taken months

due to the trading rules

You will not see a drop like 1929 again

But it has lost over 20% so far...

[LanternWaste]

105. I see a downturn in the market

I see a downturn in the market. I'm afraid I don't foresee a crash reminiscent of 1929. I actually see more similarities with the Panic of '93, but as long as corn, wheat and other commodities don't go belly-up (of which I myself have seen little reason to expect that), I don't really perceive this as anything other than a rather dramatic downturn.

[iamthebandfanman]

71. and tonight were gonna party like its 1929! n/t

[mudesi]

78. Maybe you should wait for it to ACTUALLY happen, then

Today is nothing. Look at the charts. The Dow was lower in mid July of this year.

When the Dow falls 30% in a day, then you can say "told you so".

[nadinbrzezinski]

108. Trading rules, or you missed that memo?

It will not happen in a day... not anymore

1987 to be exact

[DS1]

79. September 14, 2008 will be OUR generation's black monday

[zippy890]

82. my calender says Monday Sept. 15

:rofl:

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

80. And how many times has someone here called a 3% decline Black Monday?

Every damn day is "Black Monday" on DU.

September 14, 2008 will be remembered as a down-day on the NYSE.

[Egnever]

84. Exactly

Surprisingly resilient actually considering the news.

[nadinbrzezinski]

85. You missed what happened yesterday

or did I need to remind you of the MAJOR BANKS that have failed so far?

Fanie, Fredie, effectively nationalized. Lehman... Chapter 11, Bearn Sterns, gone... AIG having major problems... Merryl bought by BOA.



I suggest you pick a damn book and start readying ON THE FUNDAMENTALS of the economy between 1929 -1931

Oy...

There are days

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

89. Yes, my big problem is a lack of book-learning.

I like you, Nadine, so please read this as an intellectual counter, not a hate-fest.

The economy is bad and getting worse. Agreed.

But historical parallelism is intellectual "cargo-cultism"... focus on similarities, over-look differences, predict the same results.

If the global economy goes down it will not be a replay of the Great Depression. It will be a whole new thing.

To cite one distinction: The significance of a bank failure in 1930 was that it cut off all buying power of people with deposits in the failed bank, and often removed an entire town from the economy. That is not the case today. Bank failures are a serious problem but there is a buffer between bank failure and consumer impact. The reduction of American standard of living will be more even and gradual.

Another distinction: The US government is philosophically different because we have the experience of the Great Depression woven into our national being. The furthest right-wing nut in congress is more activist than the typical national politician of 1930.

Another distinction: For good or ill, there is no comparison between the level of international trade barriers in 1930 and today.

Another distinction: As much as we have let our regulation regime wither, it is still for more regulated than in 1930.

Maybe we are in for something a zillion times worse than the Great Depression. Sure, that's possible. But it will not be a replay and will not be pointed up by eighty year old parallels.

A better parallel, if one wants a parallel, is Japan following their collapsed real estate bubble, but even that is a poor analog because Americans don't save.

[nadinbrzezinski]

94. History never, EVER repeats itself tit for tat, I know that

but the FUNDAMENTALS are there

Credit... is going to tighten in a massive way

Deregulation, aka the regulations put in place to prevent some of this, were removed in the late 1990s

So yes, there are some parallels

And THAT IS THE POINT

Many of us have been saying this is bad for years now

And others have refused to even acknowledge it

Oh and bank failures, yes people lost funds back then... over 100k is not insured (in the same bank that is)

[Sheets of Easter]

87. What calendar are you using?

[nadinbrzezinski]

88. Ok Lehman went down LAST NIGHT

not TODAY

The CNBC crew was in a full panic... wait, they still are

It was over the WEEKEND that this happened... get it now

[Fran Kubelik]

90. Then would that be Black Sunday? Or Black Weekend?

[nadinbrzezinski]

92. Can you understand equivalents?

Or alliterations?

[Zuiderelle]

96. Oh! I get it... Black Monday, because it's an alliteration...

Oh wait... it's not.

[Sheets of Easter]

97. Or...

[hunter]

99. Got lots of people here planning to ride this hurricane out.

The surge and the waves and the wind ain't so bad... yet.

[earth mom]

103. Yep you did and I've been listening and expecting this for a long time.

:yoiks:

[nadinbrzezinski]

104. IT is shocking though, even when you expect it, and it finally happens

my tummy is still churning...

[earth mom]

106. My stomach is churning and I've been having trouble sleeping too.

So where did all the threads go that were talking about it all this morning? Reading those threads helped me to feel like we're all in this together. :grouphug:

[nadinbrzezinski]

107. Dropped, but on the bright side

now we have issues on the teevee