I do NOT want to see discussions of race shut down here. They need to be had.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

As far as my fellow white people, and their "feelings" go, I say grow up!

It's amazing how white people applaud when someone like Bill Cosby delivers a scathing lecture to the black community about problems that exist within it but those same white people don't want to hear boo about themselves.

Every day I go out in the world and am surrounded by white people who are completely blind to their privilege and actually believe that so-called 'reverse racism' is a big problem in their lives. To see this attitude on DU is disheartening, to say the least.

I, for one, welcome the perspectives of people of color here, even if they are expressing anger. I need to hear it. I need to be vigilant about my actions and attitudes and I can't do that when discussions of race are silenced.

All of the above also goes for gender, sexual orientation, etc.

[burythehatchet]

1. phew!

[dorkulon]

6. Speaking of racism....

...sure, make the black guy wear the silver banana clip on his face!

[annabanana]

30. lol..

At least he wasn't killed off in the first episode..

[Raineyb]

2. Thank you

I am glad to be the first to kick and recommend this post. Discussions of race no matter how uncomfortable if handled respectfully should not be censored. It is disheartening to see so many people willing to stick their heads in the sand put their fingers in their ears and shout "la, la, la, la, la I can't hear you."

Well, maybe not first. I'm not fast enough on the keyboard. :)

Regards

[Tangerine LaBamba]

3. If you think race is irrelevant, and

such discussions should be banned here, that tells me two things about you:

1. you're incredibly naive (or frightened, or both) about the state of black-white relations in our country today, and
2. you fear, and do not want to tolerate, speech that is different from yours.

Once you decide to make something off-limits, you are closing a door to what holds such potential for education, understanding, relating, sharing, overcoming.

Once you forbid anyone to speak of something, you give it a kind of warped validity that will only cause harm. Making things forbidden makes them irresistible as targets, and you are, essentially, telling the racists "Go ahead - you won."

If we can't talk about racial issues today, what will become of us?

Do you think Obama would want DU to close down talk of race?

If not now, when?

[pnutbutr]

10. race should be

irrelevant. Talk about it all you want but making a big deal about it only serves to further the problems associated with it. So much today is attributed to race that it has trivialized it and in my opinion moved us backwards in some ways.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

12. Not talking about it helps?

That's like saying not treating your cancer will help it go away.

You do make a huge mistake when you discount the value of discourse.

[pnutbutr]

15. talk about it

all you want but don't make a big deal out of it.

Those who bring up race and make a big deal about it are furthering the problems associated with race more than they are helping. That's all I was saying.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

17. I don't understand

What do you mean by "a big deal"?

[pnutbutr]

20. exaggerating

beyond reality

[Tangerine LaBamba]

22. I'm sorry,

but your explanation isn't helping me understand. You seem to want exchanges controlled or edited in some way, but I fail to understand what that is, exactly.

Free speech, you know, isn't always free. When things get out of hand here, the moderators step in and close it down, which makes sense.

What sort of censorship are you advocating?

[pnutbutr]

34. none

not advocating any censorship

[Tangerine LaBamba]

40. Yes, you are

When you talk about restrictions on speech, that's censorship.

Welcome to DU, where it takes intelligence and spirit to cough up more than meaningless, monosyllabic responses that make no sense.

You may go now.......

[pnutbutr]

45. intelligence

I may not be very smart but that's no reason to be mean.

[Dogtown]

56. Knock it off, pnutbutr

That faux-laconia is affected, not effective.

It's intended to annoy.

If you have something to say, then out with it.

[Jack Zim]

60. Restriction=Censorship

Isn't this an obvious comparison?

[Raineyb]

28. Sounds like you mean your preception of reality

When I hear harrowing stories of blatant racism I don't assume it's an exaggeration. And if that's the case I don't see how one can have a conversation with you about race at all.

Regards

[Runcible Spoon]

37. oh wow we got a live one!

thanks for being the poster child for the problem the OP is identifying.

[pnutbutr]

39. What do you mean?

[Runcible Spoon]

42. if you have to ask, you'll never know.

not my job to play DU Sociology Professor.

[pnutbutr]

46. thanks

for the insight. You sure are helping me learn something here. How hard would it be to give me at the very least a one sentence response about what I asked instead of telling me it's not your job to do so?

[Runcible Spoon]

48. go fucking buy a book or google something. I tire of dealing with this, I owe you nothing.

YOU however, owe it to yourself to shed your mind of your naive and simplistic preconceptions about race. Yes, it IS a "big deal". Start with that.

[pnutbutr]

49. recommendations

any book recommendations on the topic?

[Runcible Spoon]

51. try ''The Mismeasure of Man'' Steven Jay Gould. my field is anthropology...

Gould is more mainstream and any anthro sources I give you are somewhat esoteric and require some background in the topic. Also try some of the wonderful novels and poetry written about minority experience and culture, obviously Maya Angelou and Toni Morrison come to mind first, but there is a whole world of beautiful writing by others, like Arab American feminist Joanna Kadi.

If you want something quick and dirty, any introduction to sociology or anthropology textbook will have a section; I used the Conformity and Conflict series in my classes, as well as Cultural Anthropology: A Problem-Based Approach

[pnutbutr]

52. my bad

I assumed we were talking about racial discussions as they pertain to the present.

Appreciate the history lesson suggestions though.

[Runcible Spoon]

53. lesson #1: to understand race issues, understanding the past is fundamental.

the past tells us everything we need to know about current attitudes. Well fuck me for trying with you. Enjoy your ignorance.

PS: good job ignoring all the other suggestions I had for you. I recommend some basic reading comprehension work for you as well. Ciao.

[Brewman_Jax]

78. If you're serious

may I suggest Education of a WASP by Lois Mark Stalvey or Black Like Me by John Howard Griffin or the article Black Like Me 1994 by Joshua Solomon, found at http://www.mdcbowen.org/p2/rm/white/solomon.html or any essay by Tim Wise, found at www.timwise.org

[obamaforme]

74. I was kicked of a board because I used the word Racism

Racism is alive and well in this country especially in the Southern states. I have been all over the world, but I never observed so much racism than in this country. Shameful! An aquaintance in TN uses the "N" word in conversations without thinking about it twice.

[Raineyb]

23. Make a big deal?

We're not talking about something as inconsequential as one's footwear here. How exactly would one "not make a big deal" about race in a way that's considered acceptable for discussion without being so shallow in the discussion that the discussion does no good.

"Sometimes people treat me bad because of the color of my skin. But it's no big deal because being ripped off, shot at, targeted by law enforcement disproportionately, not as well treated when ill is not a big deal. It's only my life."
:sarcasm:

Please elucidate because I really don't know what you mean when you say "Don't make a big deal out of it."

Regards

[Caliman73]

31. What do you mean by "don't make a big deal out of it"?

I am not understanding what that means. I was born in this country and speak English better than many of my Anglo brethren, yet when people see me they try to speak Spanish to me in the slow mutilated accent. Either that or they clutch their purse and cross the street.

So, what does making a big deal out of my ethnicity and people's reactions to it mean? It would be great to not have to think about race. In fact I don't have to when I am in the town I work in, where 80% of the population is Latino, but it is usually part of the equation anywhere else I go. So how do we forget that our ethnic background is part of the dominant culture's assessment of our worth? How do we get past that so that we don't continue making it a big deal?

[DevonRex]

50. It sounded like "sit down and shut up" to me. Like if nobody

talks about it, it doesn't exist or something.

I'm white. I grew up in Mississippi. And I have done all the looking the other way I will EVER do on racism. When I see it I'll speak up. And when I don't see it, I want it pointed out to me because I know I can never truly see all the insidious ways it dominates our culture.

Discussion is the WAY to eradicate it. Being silent is to approve of it.

So, I agree with your post 100%.

[rebel with a cause]

72. the talking spanish to someone because they look Latino

is something my children experienced. We lived in a small town and I, as their mother, am white. Their father was Latino, and an immigrant to this country. But my children spoke no Spanish!!! People that knew I was their mother, this was my home town, would still come up to them and ask them if they spoke English, usually in bad Spanish. My kids hated it and had no respect for these people.

On the other hand, I have been guilty of trying to speak bad Spanish to people who had limited English skills, simply because I loved the culture and the language (even if I am horrid at it). I don't do that anymore because my daughter has threatened to kill me if I do. ;)

[Chulanowa]

32. Should be, perhaps. But it's not.

We don't live in a perfect world, and even if we lived in the land of the color-blind, people would make dumb judgments based on something else. Humans are petty little shits like that.

Talking about what's going on is the only way to get the issues recognized and settled. Better to air the dirty laundry than shove it under the bed to get all mildewy.

[pnutbutr]

35. but my

rose colored glasses are sooooo comfy.

[timtom]

65. I'm confused as to whom you are replying

You and the OP are in total agreement, and I missed anyone in between that disagrees.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

67. You missed what?

There's a guy who disagrees - some troll - read his posts - he advocates censorship, in just a few, ill-chosen words.

I am in agreement, yes, with the OP.

[timtom]

70. It's the way the posts appear

And your post is in response to the original post.

The "bad guy" posts appear a bit later (or farther down).

[bryant69]

4. I guess it would depend on the tone of the discussion

i mean there have been plenty of talks on racism and religion and gender and sexual orientation.

But the tone or tenor of a discussion is such that it is likely to create flames without benefits.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[mrreowwr_kittty]

7. Sometimes when you monitor your "tone" so carefully

Your point is lost. Aren't people here always complaining that Obama isn't forceful enough when talking about McCain? Anger can be useful and sometimes it needs to be expressed.

[bryant69]

9. I'm not saying I disagree with that

But if a discussion drops down into nothing but flames and recrimination than whatever point one is trying to make initially will be lost.

Bryant

[cali]

5. I'm with you.

All the way.

[NOLALady]

8. I agree with you.

K & R

[Naturyl]

11. I'll applaud Bill Cosby AND critics of white culture.

I like it when problems in ANY culture are honestly highlighted, so that there is an opportunity to make progress on them.

I'm silly like that.

[Chulanowa]

57. Problem is?

Bill Cosby is a dishonest jackass. The Cosby Show has become his private reality, it seems. He maintains that every problem in the black community is the exclusive fault of the people suffering those problems. Strange how "You suffer because you earned suffering" is a concept we decry when said by any Republican, but the same statement when said by Bill Cosby is not only acceptable, but lauded as "harsh honesty." "Y'all n****rs are fucking up!" isn't an honest highlight, nor is it an opportunity to make progress. It's a statement by some rich dude with a "I've got mine, fuck you" attitude.

Contrary to Mr. Cosby's statements, the problems in the black community are more complex than "you motherfuckers are dumb." Allow me to give a similar example that I'm more personally familiar with.

Native communities are falling apart. Alcoholism and drug abuse is on the rise. Gangs and organized crime are gaining more power in reservations and other native communities, supplying drugs and prostitution. Native Americans have the highest depression and suicide rates in the country. Community systems are falling apart in the native community.

A Native Bill Cosby-sort would point to the development of Native hip-hop groups like Tha Tribe and Tru Rez Cru. He would point out teen pregnancy in the community as a cause rather than a symptom. He would demand that Natives "pull themselves up". What he wouldn't mention is the blatant corruption in the Bureau of Indian Affairs. He wouldn't mention corruption and nepotism in tribal governments. And he sure as hell wouldn't mention the casino. Oh, the lovely, lovely casino. Nothing funnier than white people looking at all those problems in the native community and shaking their heads, then coming in on the weekends to throw their money into a Casino they would never allow in their own neighborhoods - because casinos bring corruption and crime, which bring all those other problems...

[DiamondG]

64. i really think you misrepresent cosby's words. i highly doubt that he is unaware of the existance o

of racism and its effects. but i'll tell you this, if i had to choose between somebody telling me it's all my fault or it's all somebody else's fault, i'd rather hear that it's my fault, because then at least i would think that i was in control and take whatever actions i could to improve my situation. if it's all somebody else's fault, why bother doing anything except stewing in anger and occasionally lashing out in unproductive ways. btw, i don't think the situation of native americans is a good argument for anti-cosbyites to make, because sure, they have their problems, but they're doing a lot better than some other folks, with fewer resources.

[DiamondG]

63. correct. *no one* is immune from rational, unbiased criticism. nt

[Raineyb]

68. Except Bill Cosby's words were neither rational nor unbiased n/t

Regards

[Marrah_G]

13. IBTL

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

14. I'm going to have to assume...

that the thread some people are whining about really hit the nails on the head.

[bryant69]

18. I think it's safe to assume that you would assume that n/t

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

19. Looks like a lot of other people did too.

Fuck the whiners.

[bryant69]

21. Fuck the whiners?

That's deep.

Bryant

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

24. Yup.

It's as much as they deserve.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

16. Discussions Can Be Had, But They Still Should Be Had In An Appropriate Manner.

Just because someone is addressing their anger with racism, doesn't mean that they aren't capable of doing so in an ignorant fashion unworthy of discussion.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

33. "Appropriate"

Definition: In such a way that the delicate feelings of (insert privileged group) are coddled.

[Runcible Spoon]

47. yes we must be careful not to scare them off with any loud, black voices!

Jesus, this place is a trip sometimes.

FWIW, thanks catburgler for talking about this. DU can be more close-minded than some of the introductory anthro classes I've taught in a RED STATE. :crazy:

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

54. Wrong.

Appropriate as in respectful; same as would be dictated by rules for any other discussion on any other topic.

Try not to knee jerk so readily.

[Runcible Spoon]

55. that's fucking RICH coming from YOU.

I certainly nominate your posts as DU's Most Respectful :eyes:

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

58. We're Not Talking About Me Genius.

Now; if I had an OP whining about how my posts were deleted and they shouldn't have been, because I should be able to talk however the fuck I want blah blah blah, then you'd have a leg to stand on. But there is no such OP, is there genius. Nope. No leg to stand on for you!

:dunce:

[mrreowwr_kittty]

59. I'm not talking about me either, genius.

I haven't had any threads shut down, at least not lately. This OP is in response to other threads from this morning that were pushing the "Oh dear god we mustn't offend the white peoplez!!" meme.

[question everything]

25. Black Voters Fret Over Obama

SEPTEMBER 12, 2008

Black Voters Fret Over Obama
Close Election Spurs Nervousness, Anger; A Boon to Turnout?
By GARY FIELDS and JONATHAN KAUFMAN

An anxious murmur is rising among black voters as the presidential race tightens: What if Barack Obama loses? Black talk-show hosts and black-themed Web sites are being flooded with callers and bloggers reflecting a nervousness -- and anger -- over the campaign. Bev Smith, a nationally syndicated radio talk-show host, devoted her entire three-hour show Monday night to the question: "If Obama doesn't win, what will you think?" "My audience is upset," she said in an interview. "Some people said they would be so angry it would be reminiscent of the <1960s> riots -- that is how despondent they would be."

Warren Ballentine, another nationally syndicated talk-show host, said: "Once Sarah Palin was picked and African-Americans saw the Republicans ignited again, they got worried. We are scared now." The worries aren't universal. New York Gov. David Paterson, a Democrat, acknowledged the concerns about race. "I am hearing those jitters," he said. But he said many Democratic candidates have lost the presidential race in recent decades and "they were white candidates. African-Americans need to remember that."

Black nervousness could help Sen. Obama, the first African-American to head a major-party ticket, by boosting black turnout in November. One caller to Ms. Smith's show Monday said she was so worried that she planned to go to her church to begin working on a voter-registration drive. If Sen. Obama loses, "African-Americans could be disappointed to the point of not engaging in the process anymore," or consider forming a third political party, said Richard McIntire, communications director for the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People.

(snip)

But the racial undertone of the campaign has some blacks -- and some whites -- unable to envision the Illinois senator losing the election without racism playing a role. "If he loses, it will shake the very ground that we stand on mentally as far as what we need to be to succeed," said Robert Gordon, a 48-year-old engineering surveyor from Dallas. "From day one, we've been told to be a certain way, to be neat, intellectual, speak clearly. He is the symbol of what we were told to be by our parents and by society as a whole. If this doesn't work, what does that do to our psyche? What do I tell my sons?"

(snip)

Melvin Thomas, a professor at North Carolina State University and past president of the Association of Black Sociologists, said black response to the election likely will depend on "how African-Americans will see a vote against Mr. Obama. What does the racial distribution of that vote look like? If the answer for African-Americans to the question of why Obama lost is race, an Obama loss will have the potential to deepen the racial cut." Don Moses, a retired Army lieutenant colonel, said while he supports Sen. Obama, attributing a loss to race would be an oversimplification and unfair to voters who have legitimate concerns about the candidate. Those concerns include his age and shorter resume, as well as his alienation of "some strong members of the old guard in the Democratic Party," Mr. Moses said. Concluding that the election may be decided by race also would ignore the reasons some might have to support Sen. John McCain, including his military history, he said.

(snip)

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122107632937220473.html (subscription)

[DemoRabbit]

26. When we are afraid to discuss race...

...and when we fail to recognize the race and cultures of other people, as if it doesn't play a role in their identities, we are essentially just as racist as those who hate someone for the color of their skin.

Being TOO "PC" and pretending it doesn't exist only hides the problem away, makes you an accessory to the crime, and failing to address it fails to concur it.

[DiamondG]

62. there's "discussing," and there's "whining." there is a difference. nt

[Raineyb]

69. Not to the people who don't want to discuss race

They appear to see any discussion of race as whining and that's just an attempt to deflect a conversation they don't want to have because it makes them uncomfortable.

Regards

[fascisthunter]

27. Yeah... I thought That Thread was a Bit Weird

not talk about race at all....

[annabanana]

29. I missed whatever posts prompted this... but I think that

anyone who wants to discuss the subject ought to listen to Barack Obama's speech on Race first. It is not an easy discussion for Americans to have, but it is one that must be engaged in if we want to move America forward. If we start from an agreed upon point, we might have a better conversation.

[Captiosus]

36. No such thing a 'reverse' discrimination, as far as I'm concerned

There's only exploitation.

Hypothetical: Here's a company who gets federal benefits and they know they get more benefits for conforming to Affirmative Action. A job opens up. I apply and a less qualified minority applies. They hire the less qualified minority.

I wasn't discriminated against.
The minority applicant was exploited so the company could get more money for the company from federal or state coffers.

I'd love to say this is purely a hypothetical but I've seen it play out more than once.
I don't see it as "reverse discrimination", just as greedy corporate assholes choosing to exploit minorities for their own gains.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

41. There is an assumption buried in your premise.

That is that the minority applicant is always under qualified. Why not use an example of 2 equally qualified applicants, one of whom happens to be a minority?

[Captiosus]

43. My assumption was based SOLELY on that single case,

not an across the board generalization.

If I assume that everyone is equally qualified, I'm not considering skin color. If I'm going to employ someone and I have two resumes with equal knowledge and experience the first question in my mind isn't "what color is he/she".

But companies or educational institutions who get funds for quota hiring or accepting put skin color ahead of qualification. That's not discrimination to me as a white person but EXPLOITATION of minorities.

"We'll take you, the black guy.. even though you may not be able to hang with the job here but it makes us look good to our federal overseers."

[Runcible Spoon]

38. I get so pissed when people think our party, let alone our COUNTRY, is somehow "post race"

it marginalizes real issues while simultaneously expecting minorities to shut up about "their" problems (when in actuality they are OUR PROBLEMS) and telling minorities their communities are responsible for fixing and preventing said issues.

I fucking can't believe the day when someone was accused of being racist on DU JUST FOR BRINGING UP RACE. Boggles the mind, really. Wish I had kept that thread for reference, but linking is against forum rules anyway.

[rebel with a cause]

73. My opinion is that if you think racism is dead/past

then you are either white and/or a fool.

[DevonRex]

44. I agree completely. nt

[DiamondG]

61. as a gay woman, i say yes, but there is a limit. IMO, rather than just launching unsolicited diatri

diatribes, it is better to respond to a specific instance of bias, explaining why it's wrong.

[NikolaC]

66. I Agree With You

Discussions about race, gender and sexual orientation should not be ceased, they should be encouraged. Just because one is a liberal or Democrat, does not mean that they don't harbor any prejudices. While they will probably get heated, it's a good tool and may help to educate and open the minds of some.

[ashleigh4dem]

71. I think people or at least some

people would listen if we discuss race or want to promote the
free speech on race in a respectful manner.  Being respectful
would only make one want to listen a little more than they are
willing.  Otherwise we would be tuning them off.  Not to say
anyone here was being disrespectful but just to address it in
general.  

[Brewman_Jax]

79. Censorship doesn't cut it

see above. People will listen, as long as the majority sensibilities aren't offended, which isn't a real talk on race.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

81. Respectful

Definition: In such a way that the delicate feelings of white Americans are coddled and they are shown the deference they automatically deserve.

[spoony]

75. calling them "discussions" is rather charitable

Most of what I've seen is shit like this:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=7085830&mesg_id=7085830

[blogslut]

76. There was a qualifier contained in the OP (I think) you're referring to

No bullshit race threads.

That thread was directed at two other threads:

The first thread, addressed members of a particular gender and race who were voting for a certain candidate. I had not read the thread because it was not directed at me. I only opened and read it after a second thread was made, wherein the author called out the OP of the first thread. The second thread expressed umbrage towards the subject of the first thread as well as its author. Things got nasty and the second thread was locked, then made new, then locked, then made new again and then locked a third time. The experience was sad, ugly and rendered both threads worthless. In the end all became bullshit.

The DUer (I think you're referring to) was simply trying to ask for an end to divisiveness being flung like so much poo.

[Mudoria]

77. Thanks for your concern

[mrreowwr_kittty]

80. Do you have any idea what this is about? Or are you trying to be cute?

[bushisanidiot]

82. He's a troll.

.