Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

Please Help (Onondaga Nation)

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (1/22-2007 thru 12/14/2010) Donate to DU
 
H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-17-08 07:18 AM
Original message
Please Help (Onondaga Nation)


Hello, DUers:

I am writing this to ask for your support for the Onondaga Nation. The Onondaga are the "Fire Keepers" of the Haudenosaunee, or Six Nations Iroquois Confederacy. At issue is an attempt by the NYS legislature to collect taxes from the Onondaga. We need people from across the United States to contact Governor David Patterson’s office, and encourage him to honor Onondaga sovereignty.

The issue involves a bill, passed by both houses of the state legislature, which would attempt to collect taxes from the Onondaga Smoke Shop. Certainly, many people are opposed to smoking. However, our focus is on sovereignty.

At this point, Governor Patterson seems to understand the significance of the history between Onondaga, the United States, and New York: "I would like to at least begin by going up and having a conversation. Now, if it’s just, ‘We do it because we feel like it, and there’s nothing you can do about it, get out of here,’ well, that might create a different reaction," Paterson said in an interview with The Buffalo News.

In the interview, Paterson said he wants to treat talks with Indian leaders "almost like international diplomacy." He said he wants to reach an "accommodation" with the tribes on the tax issue; he did not say precisely what that may entail.

Paterson offered warm words for the Indians. "I think that they feel that they are always labeled as the villains in this whole process, and maybe if they were treated or thought to be just like other businesses here and they started to feel like they’re part of our state, even if they live on sacred land, that we might be able to reach an accommodation," the governor said. (Buffalo News; 8-21-08)

Joseph Heath, the attorney who has represented Onondaga in other cases with NYS, has provided the following suggestions for those writing, e-mailing, or calling Governor Patterson:

SUGGESTED TALKING POINTS FOR LETTERS TO GOVERNOR ON CIGARETTE TAXES ON ONONDAGA NATION:

1. This is much too complex a situation, with such a long history; no such bill should be signed until the Governor has been able to sit down with the Traditional Chiefs and talk about other solutions.

2. These taxing attempts are in violation of the Nation’s sovereignty and its federal treaty rights. For instance, Article II of the 1794 Treaty of Canandaigua, guarantees the Onondagas the "free use and enjoyment" of their remaining Territory.

3. Taxing the sales on the Onondaga Nation will result in a net loss of tax revenues for the state, given the facts that:

{a} All of the profits from the one, Nation owned store, go to the Nation’s government which:

{b} Funds dozens of programs that benefit the Onondaga people and their non-Native neighbors, and which

{c} Employs hundreds of Onondaga Nation citizens in these programs, who then spend these wages outside the Nation, thereby generating a ripple effect of tax generation.

4. There is only one, Nation owned store at Onondaga, with:

{a} No gas stations;

{b} No internet sale;

{c} No casino or gambling revenues; and 4. Prices that are not that much lower than non-Native stores.

5. Honoring the sovereignty and the Treaties and not taxing these sales should be seen as an economic stimulus package for the Central NY economy, very similar to the Empire Zones and the tax breaks enjoyed by Robert Congel, O’Brien & Gere and the new downtown Marriott hotel.

6. This current bill is yet another attempt by the Legislature, to tack onto the current tax bill that can not be enforced, due to an injunction from State Supreme Court in Buffalo. It is likely that this new bill may not achieve anything and will be barred by the same injunction.

7. There is a very long history of the state attempting to tax these sales, which should be thoroughly understood before any decision. 8. The Onondaga worked for a year and a half in 1996 and 1997, with the Pataki administration and reached an Agreement to resolve this issue. 9. Diplomacy and respecting the Nation’s sovereignty are the proper approaches.

8. The estimates of tax revenues are grossly over-inflated by the convenience store lobby and the Upstate, Republican legislators who promote it.

Governor Patterson’s address is:
Governor David Patterson, State Capitol, Albany, NY 12224.

The phone number is: 518-474-8390

The following link allows for e-mail:

http://www.state.ny.us/governor/contact/index.html


Please send copies (or verification of a phone call) to Attorney Heath, at:
Joe Heath <jheath@atsny.com>.


Thank you,
H2O Man
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
Solly Mack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-17-08 07:20 AM
Response to Original message
1. K&R
I'll send this around - if that's OK.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-17-08 07:28 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. Thank you.
I would appreciate it being sent around.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Canuckistanian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-17-08 07:38 AM
Response to Original message
3. This is wrong
Why is Patterson pushing for taxing natives? Are natives (on their own land) taxed anywhere else in America?

Just across the border here in Canada, it's an accepted fact of life - natives don't pay tax.

And now that they've finally found some profitable businesses, it seems that non-native interests want to shut them down.

Don't let them.

K&R
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-17-08 07:42 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. It is being pushed
primarily by republicans in the state government. It follows a long history of tensions between the Onondaga and other Iroquois, and the state. In recent years, this has included a plan by Governor Pataki to have a military invasion of Iroquois territory, which was luckily prevented.

I would appreciate if DUers in Canada took the time to contact Governor Patterson, as well.

Thanks,
Pat
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bananas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-17-08 08:07 AM
Response to Reply #4
10. A military invasion?
:banghead:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-17-08 08:37 AM
Response to Reply #10
15. On July 10, 1995,
the National Guard commanders circulated plans for an unprecedented military invasion of the three traditional strongholds of the Haudenosaunee. They were preparing to attack and occupy Akwesasne, Cattaragus, and Onondaga. The combat plan, code named "Gallant Piper," called for helicopters, armored vehicles, and 10,000 troops from the 27th Infantry Brigade and 42nd Infantry Division to invade Haudenosaunee territory.

" 'What does it sound like to you?' Onondage Chief Irving Powless, Jr., asked a reporter. 'It would sound like a military strike. You cancel out all treaties, all negotiations, and you attack a people with two cigarette stores'." (Syracuse Post Standard; 11-7-95)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
a la izquierda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-17-08 07:43 AM
Response to Original message
5. K & R Thanks for doing this
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-17-08 07:59 AM
Response to Reply #5
7. Thank you.
It is part of an on-going struggle between those who have respect for the treaties between the US and the Haudenosaunee, and those who seek to ignore them.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Freddie Stubbs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-17-08 07:49 AM
Response to Original message
6. Should native American tribes' sovereignty also exempt them from following labor laws?
This is a slippery slope indeed. If the employees of an Native American casino are fired for trying to form a union, should the tribe be exempt for the laws which forbid such union-busting activities?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Dogtown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-17-08 08:01 AM
Response to Reply #6
8. Sovereign nation
We've interfered with (killed) enough of these people.

In answer to your slanted query: yes, they should get to manage what little we haven't stolen from them in peace.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-17-08 08:03 AM
Response to Reply #8
9. The issue
of Onondaga sovereignty does not involve a casino or labor laws. Thank you for not falling for the attempt to distract from the actual issue.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Dogtown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-17-08 08:12 AM
Response to Reply #9
11. And thanks, H2O Man, for bringing it back on course.
The issue in the thread is that a republican governer is trying to steal even more from a people that have been crushed by the White Man's Burden.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
iamahaingttta Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-17-08 02:20 PM
Response to Reply #11
36. New York's governor is a Democrat
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Dogtown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-17-08 02:58 PM
Response to Reply #36
38. Thank you for picking that nit
Edited on Wed Sep-17-08 03:03 PM by Dogtown
It was itching. Down there.

I'll rephrase. Just for you:

The issue in the thread is that an asshole DEMOCRAT Governor is trying to steal even more from a people that have been crushed by the White Man's Burden.

Yes, there ARE racists in both parties. Let's not focus on insignificant details: White people tried to destroy red people and they are still trying. I certainly did not intend to let some one dilute the OP by my assumption. So, can we get back on point, now?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
sunnystarr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-17-08 07:54 PM
Response to Reply #38
42. let me pick another nit rofl ... Patterson is black ..... (nt)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Freddie Stubbs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-17-08 08:24 AM
Response to Reply #9
14. The issue is whether or not tribes are treated as business entities when they engage in commerce
Last year a federal court held that

"ribal sovereignty is not absolute autonomy, permitting a tribe to operate in a commercial capacity without legal restraint. ... Because applying the NLRA to San Manuel's Casino would not impair tribal sovereignty, federal Indian law does not prevent the from exercising jurisdiction," the court stated.

http://www.allbusiness.com/public-administration/administration-economic-programs/4064545-1.html

Could this extend to taxes as well?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Kingofalldems Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-17-08 08:38 AM
Response to Reply #6
16. Nice try
Edited on Wed Sep-17-08 08:53 AM by kingofalldems
On edit, I forgot one little thing: :sarcasm:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Freddie Stubbs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-17-08 08:50 AM
Response to Reply #16
19. Thank you
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-17-08 08:55 AM
Response to Reply #16
20. I am confident
that at some future date, archaeologists will conduct a thorough excavation of the remains at the bottom of that "slippery slope," and find the answer to that Great Mystery, "Where did these people come from? And where do they get off?"
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Cooley Hurd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-17-08 08:13 AM
Response to Original message
12. Recommended - I'll call this morning...
I used to buy my smokes in Nedrow.:thumbsup:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-17-08 08:38 AM
Response to Reply #12
17. Onondaga.
Nedrow, like Syracuse, is a suburb of the Nation. (smile)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Cooley Hurd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-17-08 09:13 AM
Response to Reply #17
25. Swear to God, I thought Nedrow WAS part of the Nation!
:blush:

Anyhow, I left a voice message w/ Paterson's office. I hope it helps...:thumbsup:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-17-08 09:20 AM
Response to Reply #25
27. Oh, it is.
I meant it was on the outskirts of Onondaga!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
sunnystarr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-17-08 07:57 PM
Response to Reply #12
43. It's like old home week lol
I used to buy all my cigs there. I lived on Onondaga Hill for years - Abbey Rd and Griffin Rd I sure am missing home lately.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Dogtown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-17-08 08:13 AM
Response to Original message
13. K&R n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
eilen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-17-08 08:47 AM
Response to Original message
18. I wonder if the state legislators
attribute the decrease in tax revenue from cigarette sales statewide is due to the availabliity of cigarettes on Indian land. They recently increased the tax another $1.50. The laws are very strict on purchasing cigarettes over the internet or transporting (smuggling) untaxed cigarettes interstate. I think they are trying to close any gaps. I don't think they are targeting the Onondagans per se because of their status, I think it is a concerted effort to regain what they consider lost revenue. If these idiots considered that more people are not smoking d/t the draconian taxes on cigarettes than are purchasing cigarettes at the lone little Smoke Shop, and that is what their supposed goal was to begin with, instead of relying on cigarette taxes to fund highways and schools perhaps they will stop pointing fingers at the Onondagans as being the culprit. I remember when you could get gas and have breakfast at the old Smoke shop many years ago.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-17-08 08:59 AM
Response to Reply #18
22. Yes.
It is part of the on-going process of NYS attempting to gain at the Onondaga's expense. It is perhaps not so much that they are "anti-Onondaga," as that they simply have no understanding, hence no respect.


Older DUers will remember the stand-off on I-81.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
eilen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-17-08 04:10 PM
Response to Reply #22
39. As an older Syracusan, I remember it well. I too have some genealogical interest,
My British forbears lived in Skaneateles, Jamesville and the Onondagan reservation back in the 1800's although I think there was a Loyalist branch that had moved on to Ontario, Canada prior to that.


Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-17-08 06:13 PM
Response to Reply #39
41. I have some photos
of the reburial we did at Jamesville years ago. I'll have to look through and find them. You might find them interesting.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Suji to Seoul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-17-08 08:56 AM
Response to Original message
21. Time for my Haudenosaunee brothers and sisters to burn tires and protest
Thank God my mother's Mohawk. Come on Haudenosaunee, let's see some protesting.

Burn tires and take control of the NYS roads through our land like we did years ago.

Tell these white assholes to shove it. We're sovereign and let's remind them of that.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-17-08 10:46 AM
Response to Reply #21
32. Our goal is
to have Governor Patterson come to Onondaga, and burn some tobacco. I am confident that we can resolve this by using the Power of the Good Mind. Everyone benefits from avoiding conflict.

Thank you.
Pat
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
annabanana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-17-08 08:11 PM
Response to Reply #21
46. Bookmarked for tomorrow morning when I am alert enough
to compose a proper note and make a coherent phone call. . .

annabanana
(Wampanoag descendant)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
myrna minx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-17-08 09:05 AM
Response to Original message
23. K&R I will write a letter when I return home from work. n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-17-08 10:43 AM
Response to Reply #23
31. Thank you.
This is an especially important issue to me, and I surely do appreciate your help!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Uncle Joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-17-08 09:05 AM
Response to Original message
24. Kicked and recommended.
Thanks for the thread, H2O Man.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-17-08 10:42 AM
Response to Reply #24
29. Thank you!
I appreciate DUers helping on this. It is very important.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
pleah Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-17-08 09:16 AM
Response to Original message
26. K&R I sent an e-mail. I hope it helps.
:)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-17-08 10:42 AM
Response to Reply #26
28. Thank you.
It really does help. I appreciate it!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
spanone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-17-08 10:43 AM
Response to Original message
30. k&r
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
sudopod Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-17-08 11:53 AM
Response to Original message
33. bhump
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
1monster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-17-08 12:05 PM
Response to Original message
34. Doesn't the Federal government have sole jurisdiction concerning
sovereign Native American nations?

How can a state tax a sovereign nation?

(On the flip side, wasn't there some stand off between a state and a Native American tribe over cigarette taxes a couple of years ago? And the state won?)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-18-08 06:25 AM
Response to Reply #34
51. In theory
(with that theory being based upon the US Constitution), yes, the federal government is supposed to be dealing directly with the Onondaga Nation. That is how, for example, the Oneida were able to win the two cases decided by the US Supreme Court in the early 1980s. In practice, there continues to be on-going relations between the state of NY and Onondaga and the other Iroquois. Sometimes, an individual politician has been able to deal in a progressive manner; the best example was Mario Cuomo, in the years before he became governor. As governor, I think he attempted to continue to deal fairly. Governor Patterson has the potential to improve relations between the Haudenosaunee and NYS.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bulldogge Donating Member (152 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-17-08 12:15 PM
Response to Original message
35. I will
contact them right now and pass this along to others as well.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-18-08 06:57 AM
Response to Reply #35
52. Thank you.
I appreciate your support.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
blueraven95 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-17-08 02:21 PM
Response to Original message
37. I'll put a letter in the mail tomorrow
sorry I can't do it today, but it will get there soon.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Joe Chi Minh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-17-08 04:18 PM
Response to Original message
40. K&R
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
happygoluckytoyou Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-17-08 08:05 PM
Original message
ALWAYS THE GOP..... GOP = Cheap Labor.... ARNOLD did similar in California----one more treaty broken
i'm sure we will apologize in 50 years
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
sofa king Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-17-08 08:05 PM
Response to Original message
44. "Almost like international diplomacy." That's more true than he knows.
Because he almost certainly doesn't know or doesn't care about the fact that the way New York stole much of its Indian land was by impersonating federal officers and negotiating false treaties with the tribes in their state.

Almost like international diplomacy, indeed!

Good luck, H20 Man. I've fought the smoke-shop fight before, and honestly I can't remember if I was winning or losing. The important thing is that the tribe must survive to fight another day, and they do that by fighting The Man, every day.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-17-08 08:07 PM
Response to Original message
45. Bookmarking.
What sort of timeline are we looking at?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-18-08 06:18 AM
Response to Reply #45
50. Good question.
Both houses of the NYS legislatures have passed the bill. Governor Patterson is now considering how he will act. The amount of letters and phone calls can encourage him to travel to Onondaga; if he is willing to do that, we will be okay. Our goal is to get as many people as possible to contact him in the next few days, or week.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-18-08 07:45 AM
Response to Reply #50
53. Thanks.
That is helpful.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bluesmail Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-17-08 10:09 PM
Response to Original message
47. I'll do what I can.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Wilms Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-17-08 10:45 PM
Response to Original message
48. k&r&done n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Mnemosyne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-17-08 11:59 PM
Response to Original message
49. Spitzer pulled this as AG of NY. He was not popular,
and disdained, even called a terrorist on one sign I saw.

Has the US or individual states ever honored a single treaty?!

This just pisses me off so much.

Hopefully Patterson will act as an honorable man and leaves them alone.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Bluenorthwest Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-18-08 08:33 AM
Response to Original message
54. An honor
To speak for the Onodaga Nation.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Thu Apr 25th 2024, 04:16 PM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (1/22-2007 thru 12/14/2010) Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC