When does someone say "It's not drilling, it's your SUV, stupid"?

[OmahaBlueDog]

Drilling for oil here instead of importing it is like telling an alcoholic to switch from Scotch Whiskey to Kentucky Bourbon.

It's time for America to enter petroleum 12-step.

[NJmaverick]

1. Telling Americans what they shouldn't do is never popular

just ask President Carter. Doesn't matter if you are right, you will still be hated for it.

[OmahaBlueDog]

4. The "lower your expectations" line killed him

but, OTOH, the Repulicans are always pushing "personal responsibility. Ask them what went wrong in Katrina, and they;ll tell you that "people failed to takepersonal responsibility." All I'm asking is for someone to point out that their personal choice to drive a Cadillac Escalade is the problem, not the ANWAR.

[NJmaverick]

5. The GOP pushes the "personal responsibility" for others

not themselves. Others would include minorities, other Countries, the poor to middle class, liberals and Democrats. It doesn't include themselves or thier supporters though.

[SteelPenguin]

2. Or it's like offering a thirsty man a glass of waters in 10 years

If a thirsty man asks for a glass of water you don't say you can give him a glass of water in 10 or 15 years and act like that solves the problem.

[cliffordu]

3. I get cursed at regularly for saying that very thing.........

Cue Amy Winehouse....

[old mark]

6. Blue Dog, we have been driving small - fuel efficient- cars for

over 15 years, and have been insultd and mocked for it several times by SUV and idiot-over-large pickup drivers over the years.

We now have a Hyundai and a VW, and I don't see a US made car in our future ever again.
(Unless I can find a really affordable '56 Chavy.)


mark

[Romulox]

9. If you don't care about American workers, why should Americans care about YOU? nt

[beam me up scottie]

14. American workers will be building Volkswagens soon.

http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/2008-07-15-volkswagen-tennessee_N.htm">Volkswagen selects Tennessee for new auto plant

[Romulox]

16. Are they building time machines? People are hurting today! nt

[beam me up scottie]

18. Well then, DRILL DRILL DRILL!

You've just been informed that Volkswagens will soon be manufactured here in the states and now you're complaining because it's not instantly solving the problem?

Personally, I would love to be an American worker in their new plant.

[Romulox]

19. No, I'm saying that this is an after-the-fact justification for indifference to the plight of labor.

[old mark]

20. So, I should buy a huge US made piece of shit?

I may have not supported American Labor, but I made several American car salesman pretty happy.

FWIW, I was an AFSCME Steward for several years. The president of our local drives Subarus.

mark

[Romulox]

23. Subarus are not noted for being high quality. Many US models outscore them.

How come you "quality experts" are never conversant with any data on the subject?

"WIW, I was an AFSCME Steward for several years. The president of our local drives Subarus."

Right. Municipal employees don't feel threatened by outsourcing, so they are self-serving and don't support their fellow workers. They aren't unique in this respect, huh?

[beam me up scottie]

21. And who exactly died and made you qualified to judge your fellow DUers in such a way?

Your comment was irrelevant, unfair and completely unnecessary.

[Romulox]

24. LOL. Now your feelings are hurt? Try living on the outskirts of the poorest city in the US.

:nopity:

[beam me up scottie]

26. So your choice of location justifies your attack on a fellow DUer?

Trust me, your accusations are too insignificant to affect my emotions.

You should apologize to Mark, though.

[Romulox]

29. There was no attack. Only an attempt to divert debate.

"You should apologize to Mark, though."

Apologize to Mark for what? Can you quote the language you deem an "attack"? Don't you think it's up to mark to be offended on behalf of Mark?

I am truly puzzled by your over-emotive response here. I think you just don't want the issue discussed. :shrug:

[beam me up scottie]

31. Your words: "If you don't care about American workers, why should Americans care about YOU?"

You accused him of not caring about American workers, that's a personal attack.

[Romulox]

33. It's a rhetorical question (notice the question mark?). Toughen up. It's a discussion board.

You and he are telling me that you don't care that Detroit is the poorest big city in the US, and you have no intention on supporting our lifeblood industry--this despite the fact that Democrats claim to be the party of labor. And you're the one who's offended (on behalf of another poster, no less!)?

Gimmeabreak. If I was as easily offended as you, I'd be balling my fucking eyes out. :eyes:

[beam me up scottie]

34. Now you're just lying about my posts. Please show me where I posted that I didn't

care that Detroit is the poorest big city in the US, and (I) have no intention on supporting our lifeblood industry

.

I'll wait.

[Romulox]

47. But you are whining about something I said *to somebody else*. :P

:silly:

[PVnRT]

38. TODAY, there are Toyota and Honda plants up and running in Indiana

Let me know when Detroit starts bringing jobs into the state.

Or, just continue trolling and bitching whenever anyone says they don't drive a 5 mpg American SUV, which seems to be your MO.

[Romulox]

51. Fine. It's it's every man for himself, YOU do what's good for Indiana, and I will do whats good for

Michigan.

The Democrats are supposed to be the party of collective action. But you keep preaching that "I got mine crap" all the way to yet another loss in November. :hi:

[OmahaBlueDog]

15. I'll answer that

I'm 43, and every car I've ever purchased or leased has been American, and most have been Fords. That said, the next purchase is likely to be a Honda or a Toyota out of economic necessity unless the US (Chevy Volt, maybe?) can come up with a reliable 40+/40+ MPG vehicle. My job forces me to drive about 25,000 miles per year, and the price of gas is killing me.

It makes me crazy, because I know the USA can do it. My 1995 5 speed Saturn got better than 40 mpg on the highway.

[Romulox]

17. Well, I care as much about the environment as you do the welfare of American workers.

And gas price are coming down! :hi: :)

[LanternWaste]

22. Why do you hate America!!11!!???

"...that said, the next purchase is likely to be a Honda or a Toyota"

Why do you hate America!!11!!??? Or so I've been asked when it's discovered I don't own an American car... :hi:

[Romulox]

25. Enter the "new Democrat" to explain why it is "efficient" for YOU to lower your standard of living.

[LanternWaste]

27. I don't think all possibilities are being accessed...

I don't think all possibilities are being accessed... :shrug:

While it's both truthful and valid that I don't own an American car, it's also both truthful and valid that I don't own a foreign car either.

[beam me up scottie]

28. Enter the uninformed and illiberal poster to attack anyone who doesn't support his agenda.

Way to win folks over to your cause du jour! :applause:

[Romulox]

30. "Illiberal"? Lol. Now support of US Labor has been deemed "illiberal"!

I've seen it all. :silly:

[beam me up scottie]

32. No, accusing liberals of not caring about American workers is illiberal.

If you don't care about American workers, why should Americans care about YOU?

Better get those eyes checked, you don't see very well at all.

[LanternWaste]

35. I've often thought that unless and until...

I've often thought that unless and until an individual possesses nothing made outside of America, there will always be a fist raised righteously into the air, sermonizing to us (in a manner that would be the envy of many fundamentalist church pastors) that we do not support american Labor.

[beam me up scottie]

36. Old memes die hard.

That's why religion is still dividing people and Democrats are still attacking each other.

So much for unity.

[Romulox]

50. Right. Like Democrats = Party of Labor! I'm not looking to "unify" with RW shills! :) nt

[Romulox]

49. That's an idiotic appeal to absolutism that will not impress any but the uneducated

Don't support any American worker unless you don't spend a penny on imported items?

It's an idiotic argument. :hi:

[LanternWaste]

54. Well, to me the worker is absolute

Well, to me the worker is absolute. The borders? Not so much. :)

[Romulox]

56. You and and John McCain are on the same page on this issue then.

Neo-liberalism is a dead theology. Your time is over. :hi:

[LanternWaste]

59. Wow. Talk about a dogmatic Absolutism.

"You and and John McCain are on the same page on this issue then."


Wow. Talk about a trendy secular and dogmatic Absolutism.

Sorry, chief-- I'm behind workers worldwide. No border makes any one worker any better or any worse than another.

But hey-- if you feel self-validated and clever by using overly broad strokes, then have at it; but you're probably wasting your time though-- I've been called much worse things by much smarter people.

Now-- go ahead and write that last clever response. I'm sure it will be an eye opening and amazing bit of wisdom noted for both it's depth and it's breadth for those who read it.


"Your time is over". :rofl: You're quite the precious little guy, aren't you? That's a wonderful response. "Your time is over". Is that from a bad science fiction movie or is that something you came up with on own? I imagine you saying it in Darth Vader voice. No, really-- it's quite precious! Really-- you should put that on a t-shirt. It's up there with "There you go again..." and "Bootylicious" :rofl:


(really-- write that clever retort. Maybe something like, "I'll be back" or something else you've read on a bumper sticker... 'cause I can't in good conscious put you on ignore until after I read it)

[beam me up scottie]

61. His posts give me a headache:

:)

[Romulox]

63. There is no content to your posts to this thread beyond name-calling. nt

[beam me up scottie]

69. .

[Romulox]

65. If you don't support US labor, you are no political ally of mine. Preach you neo-liberalism

on that other sight! :hi:

[Romulox]

48. "Illiberal" is a nonsense word in this context! :) nt

"Better get those eyes checked, you don't see very well at all."

Better consult a dictionary! :hi:

[OmahaBlueDog]

37. Seriously, it makes me crazy that we can't seem to make a car to compete with the Civic or Prius

But what makes me crazier is this: I've never traveled off the continent, but I am told by many "Wow, you should see the cars Ford sells in Europe."

I know Ford makes small, fuel efficient cars for the European market -- why not for here?

I'll give credit where it's due -- making Hybrid Tahoes and similar vehicles (thus enabling a major pig of an SUV to get mileage comparable to a mid-size car) is a step in the right direction.

I'd seriously consider the Hybrid Malibu if they could squeeze about 5 more MPG out of it, make an effective plug-in model, lower the price a few grand, and/or make it able to run on E-85....or (if we could get the infrastructure in place) better yet, CNG.

[LanternWaste]

39. I'm of the same mind

"Wow, you should see the cars Ford sells in Europe."

I'm of the same mind. When I lived in the Yucatan some years back, my best friend's wife owned a Chevrolet Chevy (that was the actual name of the model). It was cute, it was super fuel efficient, and it was reliable. I'd own one in a heart beat if they were sold in the states.

And I imagine that many of the American mini-cars sold in Europe would sell like hot cakes in the states, but for some reason the Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standards does not recognize either the ECE, or World Forum for Harmonization of Vehicle Regulations (my opinion is that Detroit (GM, Ford, et.al.) is simply practicing post-hoc protectionism).

Chances are, I'm going to break down soon and purchase a scooter.

[old mark]

41. This is very agavating to me, too.

US car makers have been making fuel efficient cars in Europe for decades, and huge beasts over here. They say they make what sells, and huge cars sell better here.
BUT it did not take a genius to see the changing times, and they all got caught short.
This has nothing to do with american labor, but a lot to do with idiotic american management and corporate greed and shortsightedness.


How much does the CEO of GM of Ford make in comparison to the assembly workers - how much is his retirement package even if he fails to do a good job?

mark

[Kalyke]

13. American cars are better built, now, though.

And, they have some really good small ones that don't chugalug.

Besides, I hear Ford's bringing their European line over here. Lots to choose from.

[old mark]

57. I hope they are better.

I went to a Ford Dealers service rep meeting in 1975 in California in which the Ford factory rep told everyone that new Ford products were just lash-ups, put together quick and dirty to meet emmission standards.
They could not be made to run well and still meet the emmission tests - you could do one or the other, but not both at the same time.

I know Ford in Europe seems to have a very good rep, and I hope that the cars they sell here will be good.
Many of the older models were not.

mark

[Romulox]

66. 1975 was 33 years ago. Your data is a bit musty. nt

[AFSCME girl]

7. ...

Thank you! BTW, what is that pic in your sig line? It looks very cool!

AFSCME girl

[OmahaBlueDog]

10. "True Blues" by Andy Thomas

It's available at most shopping mall art stores, or you can Google it.

[AFSCME girl]

12. Excellent - thank you very much!

[Romulox]

8. Why just the SUV? Why not the power to run the AC in your McMansion?

On a recent thread, an Arizona "environmentalist" who was lambasting SUV drivers paused to reveal that she kept the Air Conditioning at 73 degrees rear round, because "she can't take the heat" (presumably, any temperature >73 degrees! :wow: )

So is "environmentalism" about reducing energy use, or telling other people to reduce their energy use (Al Gore)?

[Dr. Strange]

42. I hope to do my part in saving the environment...

by moving into a shack like Al Gore's:




And not driving an SUV.

[Nihil]

45. You run your AC on petrol?

No?

You think that oil rigs that your friends want produce the coal
(or even uranium) that's used to generate the electricity for
your AC?

No?

Maybe why the OP is about "just the SUV" ... :eyes:

BTW, nice dig at the only environmentalist you've heard of ... you're
quite the opportunist - using cracks at "Al Gore", "US Labor" and all
the rest as you wriggle your little way around the fact that you're
pathetically addicted to your greed, your consumerism and your dumb
faux patriotism at all costs.

[Romulox]

52. Electricity is generated with carbon based fuel in the US. Burning these produces CO2.

"You think that oil rigs that your friends want produce the coal
(or even uranium) that's used to generate the electricity for
your AC?"

"My friends"? Huh? :eyes:

"Maybe why the OP is about 'just the SUV' "

The reason why it's just about the SUV is that it is much easier to scapegoat than to make any real changes to one's own lifestyle.

"using cracks at "Al Gore", 'US Labor'"

Al Gore is a hypocrite on the environment. There. I've said it. But if you've noticed, I've been defending US labor on this thread. ('Making a crack' means denigrating the object of the 'crack')

"the rest as you wriggle your little way around the fact that you're
pathetically addicted to your greed, your consumerism and your dumb
faux patriotism at all costs."

What in god's name are you on about? I don't drive an SUV (never have,) and I don't own a McMansion. You seem to be angry that "environmentalism" means conservation of energy, not merely finger-pointing. :hi:

[Nihil]

53. Changing the subject again (to one that has truth this time)

> "My friends"? Huh?

Try "your like-minded individuals who support drilling in the
hope of continuing a short-sighted & downright dumb pursuit of
energy inefficiency for the sake of their way of life".

This has exactly the same meaning as originally intended but without
implying that you were a right-winger. Happy?

>> "Maybe why the OP is about 'just the SUV' "
>
> The reason why it's just about the SUV is ...
... basically your opinion and not connected to anything stated
in that OP. This thread is about the futility (and indeed wastefulness)
of the "drill, baby, drill" cheerleaders compared to actually
*reducing* the amount wasted at present.

You were the one who decided to change the frame of reference
(either innocently or for strawman purposes, your call).

I was just getting you back on track. :hi:

> 'Making a crack' means denigrating the object of the 'crack'

'Taking a crack' means making an attempt and it was your attempts
at derailing the subject that provoked my comment.
My phrase "using cracks at..." applies equally to both definitions.

> You seem to be angry that "environmentalism" means conservation
> of energy, not merely finger-pointing.

The opposite actually: I was irritated that the "conservation of energy"
definition (that I use myself) is ignored whenever it is brought into
contact with that sacrosanct subject in America, the automobile.

Never mind, I'm sure I will not be able to dislodge generations of
indoctrination with mere conversation. Have a nice day.

[Romulox]

55. Not defending drilling in the least, just pointing out the holes in your logic.

AC runs on hydrocarbons, just like SUVs. Eliminate every SUV on the planet and you won't solve the problem.

"'Taking a crack' means making an attempt and it was your attempts
at derailing the subject that provoked my comment.
My phrase "using cracks at..." applies equally to both definitions."

Maybe in a language other than English. :silly:

[Nihil]

58. Yeah, right ...

Your tortured attempts at defending vehicle-oriented waste
are almost as funny as the thought that you could teach me
anything about the English language ...

See ya! :hi:

[beam me up scottie]

60. He's lecturing YOU on the English language?

:rofl:

I wonder if he thinks Oxford is a river in Detroit?

:hi:

[Romulox]

62. LOL. Now mastery of the English language is GENETIC? It doesn't get much sillier than this.

:silly:

You are off the deep end.

[beam me up scottie]

64. .

[Romulox]

67. Stick to lolcats. Your debate skills suck. :) nt

[beam me up scottie]

68. .

[codjh9]

11. Well of course. We could easily move to not importing oil if we just didn't a) drive SUVs/

big pickups, b) didn't drive so damned fast, and c) didn't commute so far. Well, and d) used mass transit more, and/or biked, whatever. And as others say here - not heat McMansions, etc. I've thought about writing a book about waste in America.

[sun in sadge]

40. Amen to that! Now I will just sit back with the popcorn

and watch all these liberally-minded folks try to justify their over-consumption. It's been an acid trip on here, actually. I was reading about eating meat the other day and thought I had wandered into some Right-Wing board.

[Scout]

43. 'cuz it's not that simple, unless one is simple-minded n/t

[OmahaBlueDog]

44. So what gas guzzler are you driving?

:-)

[Scout]

46. i drive a '94 Jeep Cherokee Sport

i've previously had a small Renault Alliance, a Ford Escort GT, and a '98 Jeep Grand Cherokee.

i've always wanted a jeep. i bought both my jeeps used.

i wonder not just about gas mileage on the vehicles one drives, but about the resources used to make NEW vehicles that may get better gas mileage ... and also about the used vehicles that end up in junk yards and abandoned as people buy/lease new vehicles every year, every 4 years, whatever.

also, one may drive an suv, but may drive fewer miles overall than someone who drives a hybrid or better mileage car, so i could be using less gas.

not many people can afford to run out and buy a hybrid, whether they "pay off" in the long run on gas savings or not. you still have to be able to come up with the payment and the insurance for a new vehicle.